I dunno, I think it's a bit cynical to think that kind of thing is always 'pandering.' Sometimes the people making the game just want the character they want in the game - it's not ALWAYS a pure business decision to pander to people. Sometimes an artist just likes breasts and that's that.
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Koji Igarashi Kickstarts Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night (2.5D, backdash, 2018)
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I dunno, I think it's a bit cynical to think that kind of thing is always 'pandering.' Sometimes the people making the game just want the character they want in the game - it's not ALWAYS a pure business decision to pander to people. Sometimes an artist just likes breasts and that's that.
See this is the thing though, since we cannot read the creator's mind, we cannot know if they designed the character this way because they genuinely wanted the character to look like this, or if they were pandering. And whether societal biases played into that, etc. - so to assume the worst of the creator does them a disservice. We've only seen this character's design be "pandering" so far, and iirc they stated that they don't want to have designs that are very fanservicey, or something along those lines. So to immediately go there is jumping the gun, I think. When more artwork is revealed, we can say for sure, but I don't think it's fair to IGA to not give him the benefit of the doubt yet.
Of course, I may be wrong and we might realize later that this might just be pandering when we know more, but as things stand there is no evidence either way. Given Shanoa's design IGA's track record isn't terrible either. So let's wait it out before calling this pandering - we don't lose anything by playing the waiting game.
Well, if they 'want the character to look like that in the game', then they're just pandering to themselves, right?
Do any of us think they're only designing women this way because they think it's the only way they'll sell games? If they didn't want to design the characters this way, they simply wouldn't do it. Do you think The Last of Us sold fewer copy because it had female characters that weren't bizarre, hypersexualized characterizations?
A developer and publisher can design a game however they want, and that's fine, but it's kind of disappointing and fatiguing to see how popular the hypersexualization of women is as a design decision.
Do any of us think they're only designing women this way because they think it's the only way they'll sell games? If they didn't want to design the characters this way, they simply wouldn't do it. Do you think The Last of Us sold fewer copy because it had female characters that weren't bizarre, hypersexualized characterizations?
A developer and publisher can design a game however they want, and that's fine, but it's kind of disappointing and fatiguing to see how popular the hypersexualization of women is as a design decision.
Is it really so shocking to imagine that when someone sits down to design a character they draw something appealing to themselves?
Creators are going to create what they want to create. It's totally fine to comment on and criticize this process and their creations, but at some point I have to ask: do we have to have this discussion in every single instance where a female character has any essence of sexuality displayed?
Sexuality is ok. Yes, sexualized women are the norm in video games - this isn't unique to video games as a form of media - yes, that's not an excuse, but I'm tired of reading this argument any time it comes up. Miriam could be a lot worse, even by Castlevania standards.
Creators are a product of the culture they come from. I think many people forget this.
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edit: My point is that I find criticism of sexuality where there's really no egregious offense very tired and I have as much right to say so as you do complain about every game that has sexuality displayed.
Sexuality is ok. Yes, sexualized women are the norm in video games - this isn't unique to video games as a form of media - yes, that's not an excuse, but I'm tired of reading this argument any time it comes up. Miriam could be a lot worse, even by Castlevania standards.
Creators are a product of the culture they come from. I think many people forget this.
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edit: My point is that I find criticism of sexuality where there's really no egregious offense very tired and I have as much right to say so as you do complain about every game that has sexuality displayed.
Many of us knew this would be the case from the start. The question was whether or not it would be blatantly 3D or "I can't believe it's not 2D!"
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
What a bunch of strawman bullshit.
I'm sorry you're tired that the status quo gets questioned. Perhaps some of us are tired of the actual status quo, though -- ever thought of that?
I have. I wonder where the creators are who feel the same as you.
Ultimadrago
Member
Miriam's design is my favorite thing about this project so far (behind Koji's involvement). I hope her in-game model gets lots of good work put into it, but I still love the core concept.
Best totally not Castlevania ever.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Are you suggesting they don't exist? Neil Druckmann is certainly a prominent example.
I'm entirely sympathetic to this. I just think that since we cannot deduce authorial intent, it's fair to the creators that we wait for multiple points of reference until we condemn them. Criticizing this specific design and criticizing the developer aren't the same thing after all.
entremet
Member
When you're not relying on 30 year old sprites, costs rise considerably.
3D is much cheaper.
Really like the new shader as well, although I have to admit that I find Miriam's attire really poor taste. Seriously, her blouse looks like it's would fall off with even the slightest movement. I honestly would really appreciate it if they would pull her shirt up such that it was more respectful and more like the original art:
Ugh, this is really getting me concerned that the game will lean more towards ridiculous anime tropes and overtly sexual themes. :..(
Ugh, this is really getting me concerned that the game will lean more towards ridiculous anime tropes and overtly sexual themes. :..(
Constant, never ending criticism because a character was designed to be attractive is getting to the point that its a nuisance, especially on the internet where over the top exaggeration is the norm. Someone a few posts up commented on how Miriam looked "hypersexualized" in the new screens that were released. Hypersexualized is the sort of word id reserve for like, a Senran Kagura character in the middle of a special attack.
Respectful to who? Just out of curiosity. Miriam? The object that I take control of and guide through the game?
SiegfriedFM
Member
How is this happening? Surely this can't be the product of a man who gave us a topless moaning succubus as a boss, or tons of roaming succubi enemies, or naked lolis in rosebuds.
I understand the complaints about boob size, but given how far back the camera will be pulled back for the majority of the game, I imagine that Miriam's enlarged bust won't be front and center of player's attention (at least I certainly hope it won't be).
Wow, for a "quick half assed photoshop edit" that looks really good. I'll agree that looks much better than the official version.
Wow, for a "quick half assed photoshop edit" that looks really good. I'll agree that looks much better than the official version.
Just raising up the top and the glass rose it shouldnt be a hard thing to do IMO. No need to change the proportions but to make the top go higher.
Seriously. Surprised at the people hating the design because of her bust size. Lots of body shaming going on in here. The design looks identical to the original so I'm happy.
I understand where you're coming from. It's totally normal and just fine to keep talking about how you want more representation of women that isn't the traditional, sexualized portrayal. Hell, I want more of it too.
It's just that, well, in some cases you're just going to have to deal with people drawing or designing what they want to design, myself included (you should see some of the stuff I've made in my free time.) As said before, not every character is made for the sole purpose of sales projections.
Keep bringing it up, though. It's worth thinking about, even if it's in the back of an artist's mind. As a game artist myself a lot of the recent hubbub over lack of representation has led me to think about all kinds of cool ideas regarding a non-super-sexualized minority female protagonist for a game, and I sometimes doodle them out. Just so you know from an anecdotal perspective what some people think is 'incessant complaining' is actually having an impact on what some game artists think about.
That's all it is in the end, though, is a suggestion. People often see this kind of criticism and suggestion as a mandate for people to never make anything sexualized ever again, which is the dumbest thing ever to believe is happening. That being said, if anything like that ever DID happen you'd bet your ass I'd be against it.
Razzorn34
Member
TIL I'm apparently a gross person for liking large breasts. Who knew?
Astral Dog
Member
Ugh what a Pervert
Guys.
You know what a fictional character is, right?
This is not a woman who happens to be born with certain physical characteristics. This is a character who was designed to look that way. That design is part of a larger cultural context. And can be examined as such, as well as criticised. This is not body shaming. This is criticism of a design decision, and of the broader culture that spawned it.
I know, it feels like people who are criticising these decisions can make you feel like you're being judged. But... it's really not that. That's completely not what's at stake in these arguments.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
if people arent trying to get rid of them, why bother criticizing. This is really dumb circular logic that gets spouted a lot and doesnt work for either side of the argument.
Criticism doesn't have anything to do with getting rid of something, what the fuck are you talking about? If someone told me they thought me drawing anime tits was hypersexualization they're not telling me to stop drawing them, they're just saying they think it's hypersexualized. It's a suggestion for a creator that they can just keep in the back of their mind of they want - criticism isn't an all-powerful tool used to tell people what to do. It's just some person telling you what they think about something.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Because I backed the game and can offer my feedback if I want. You aren't the criticism police.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
so you do not want them to change miriam's design at all then? you just want to say you dont like it?
im not saying you cant criticize, im saying the goal of the criticism is to get it to change, why else would you criticize it. Change this or future projects
KirbYuuYuu
Member
Not a great retort.
NinjamicWZ
Banned
What y'all would do with immortality:
What I would do:
What I would do:
ShockingAlberto
Member
I don't think you're allowed to define what my goal for criticism is, either.
dragonzdogma
Member
I have no idea what's going on in this thread,
but I really like the new screen shots, it's pretty detail character, I'm still having issues a bit with the perspective tho. I've seen better 2.5 D I'm sure It will be better, Iga knows how to make some awesome games.
but I really like the new screen shots, it's pretty detail character, I'm still having issues a bit with the perspective tho. I've seen better 2.5 D I'm sure It will be better, Iga knows how to make some awesome games.
I don't personally want them to change Miriam's design at all (well, except for the glass tattoo not actually looking like glass). I like her huge breasts the way they are. I'm just saying that criticism is merely a suggestion and is not really a mandate for a creator to follow.
Of course criticism is usually connected with the person wanting whatever they're criticizing to be changed. That being said, it's just something some person thinks about it. It's not like they have to take that person's point of view into account or anything if they don't want to. Again, it's just a suggestion from some random person.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Cleavage was shown.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
so then what is it. Criticism has always been a tool for change, so what is your goal
the only point I'm making is that if you are going to be criticizing it is because you are looking for something different. To claim otherwise is nonsensical. Whether you expect your criticism to be something that a creator takes to heart is not what I'm getting to.
I know that at this point tabata isn't going to change the cast of ffxv up, but if whenever I criticize it I'm still wishing he would.
KirbYuuYuu
Member
You don't have to listen to criticism. That's the thing.
Criticism is just 'I think this should be different' from some random person. No one is saying it's now the law for Bloodstained to have smaller boobs in it thanks to a couple people saying they think her boobs are too big/exposed. It's a suggestion.
Random people saying 'I think her boobs should be smaller or less exposed' is really not any cause for alarm or anything. This attitude is a mega-overreaction and being defensive where there isn't defense needed.
dragonzdogma
Member
Sad...Let the artist draw their women the way they like em.
it's art man....anyone ever gone to a museum?
artist been drawing naked women/with the proportions they liked since forever, it's the artist choice, this will never ever change.
ShockingAlberto
Member
I do hope that the "Art should never be criticized" people have never crticized any aspect of any video game.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Fucking lol. Not even close.
You can't "body shame" a fictional character. It's so blatantly obvious, why do we need to explain this?
Succubi are kind of expected to be sexualized. It's a thing called context. Nice try, I guess?
Whether the criticism is taken into account is up to the artist. If the artist sees a criticism and goes 'oh, they've got a point' and changes it, then it's not up to any of us to say otherwise. Conversely, if they say 'fuck you, I just wanted to make it this way' there's nothing any of us can do about it either. That's the way it's always been unless we're talking about governmental censorship, which has nothing to do with regular-ass criticism.
Going a little bit up on the boob makes everything better IMO (quick half assed photoshop edit)
And there's also enough room to bring the tattoo (yeah, yeah, I know) up a bit if they need to show it more.
But again, the in-game screenshot doesn't look bad at all when it comes to this. It really might just be an actually clever design decision to make it look normal during gameplay.
I guess it is somewhat comparable to how some Guilty Gear Xrd incredible looking scenes are actually all twisted from other angles.
The obvious difference in this case being that they don't fucking show screenshots of that unless they're actually talking about how twisted they look at other angles. We'll have to see how it looks in the full screenshot and how it'll look during cutscenes in the final game, I suppose.
Yes, absolutely agree with this as well. On the contrary, they actually talked about how they restrained themselves with the design, even though they thought the audience might want her to be more sexy, because they just didn't want to make that. Can't remember the specific event where that happened, though.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Going a little bit up on the boob makes everything better IMO (quick half assed photoshop edit)
I super tad bit lower, raise the curse mark a tiny bit, and flatten *but not reduce* the breast and that's what I was basically saything would match the earlier concept art.
She has big breast in all of the art, they are just more bound and pressed in on all the early concept stuff.
If for some reason you dont know what Im talking about and you are not at work or whatever google up corset stuff, or hell google up boobs pressed against glass *lol!* <--- This one shows why the nipples are off right now as well.
I fucking love sexy characters and all that, but I'm super nitpicky when it comes to art design stuff. Could be half naked if it looks good idgaf. But right now Those few things are super off.
To use guilty gear for an example.
Dizzy and I-no are both busty characters. But Dizzy is in a bondange type get up. So all her art and character stuff has her breast being restrained squashed by the outfit showing how tight it is. Meanwhile I-no is basically topless with a short jacket on not zipped up so her breast are more out there pronounced not restrained because they are not being restrained.
Sexualized characters are fine, but at least do the effects of the sexualization right so it doesn't look like you never seen the female body before and are like LOL I LIKE BOOBIES. Shit if you like boobs so much do them justice
ShockingAlberto
Member
As a critic, my purpose of criticism is to evaluate something according to my taste. Whatever people do with that criticism is up to them.
cm osi
Member
so if i can't body shame a fictional character then i can't objectify a fictional character too. the character itself is already an object!
Speaking of which, I personally think that if they're going to stick with that design for the 3D model they should go all in, if they zoom in on her character model in cutscenes.
If they do a Valkyrie Drive-style version of animating the chest region, that might be awesome, since people are noting how close she is to exposing nipples.
Somewhat NSFW related:
http://webmup.com/8e8ec/vid.webm
Then again, that's what I'd be into. It's up to the creator in the end.
If they do a Valkyrie Drive-style version of animating the chest region, that might be awesome, since people are noting how close she is to exposing nipples.
Somewhat NSFW related:
http://webmup.com/8e8ec/vid.webm
Then again, that's what I'd be into. It's up to the creator in the end.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
MHWilliams
Member
Everything is constantly criticized, from now until forever, since you're working with a huge base of people, all with different ideas and preferences. You're just focused on this particular criticism as the one you have an issue with.
Dio speaks the truth that some forget.