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[Marauder Shields]

NYT: On Perilous Migrant Trail, Women Often Become Prey to Sexual Abuse




Bolding is mine.

Just one out more cases in the article, but this one made me go WTF the most. How can the guy just be under a restraining order after pimping, raping, stalking and I assume serious threats to his wife???

Absolutely disgusting.


With these types attitudes towards women, from these immigrants, it's not difficult to see how the New Year attacks could have occurred.

 

[Starsailor]

Germany need to do what we did in France: make an "urgence" situation for three month or more (voted again each three months).
They need to clear those terrorist network.

ISIS is losing again and again and again (in fact even their videos don't work anymore, look David Cameron reaction lol, and that's bad for ISIS because those video was their strengh: marketing and commercial).

But even if ISIS lose, there will be still those dark network in europe and US and everywhere. Even if they don't have money from ISIS...

 

[quackamole]

Germany need to do what we did in France: make an "urgence" situation for three month or more (voted again each three months).
They need to clear those terrorist network.

ISIS is losing again and again and again (in fact even their videos don't work anymore, look David Cameron reaction lol, and that's bad for ISIS because those video was their strengh: marketing and commercial).

But even if ISIS lose, there will be still those dark network in europe and US and everywhere. Even if they don't have money from ISIS...

ISIS is the symptom, not the cause. Take them out and somebody else just as bad or even worse will replace them.

 

[Tacitus_]

Somewhat related


The Paris police station stabber lived in a refugee camp in German, was registered under 4 different nationalities and was known to the German police for crimes & posing with an ISIS flag.

What the hell Germany?

 

[Mrmartel]

http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschl...ozent-der-Fluchtwelle-bei-uns-angekommen.html

I'm not linking to the Breitbart (is it gaf approved?) article that translated the above German article.

But some choice quotes.

Gerd Müller (CSU, Germany's Development Minister) said only 10 per cent of Syrian and Iraqi migrants have reached Europe so far and “eight to ten million are still on the way”, with even more to come from Africa.

“The biggest movements are ahead: Africa’s population will double in the coming decades,” he told Bild am Sonntag, adding: “In the Sahara up to one million people have died trying to escape.”

The European Commission, he added, has lost a significant amount of authority thanks to the crisis. “The protection of external borders is not working. Schengen has collapsed. A fair distribution of refugees has not taken place,” he said.

He said that in the digital age we live in, more people than ever know about the prosperity of Western nations thus making it more likely they will try to travel here.

He also called for a 10 billion euro “Marshall Plan”, with European states paying to rebuild war torn countries such as Iraq, Syria and Libya. “All states must pay, especially those that receive no refugees,” he warned.

When asked about calls from Bavarian regional president Horst Seehofer to put a cap on the number of migrants admitted to Germany, Mr Müller responded: “We need a reduction. If we have a million again like last year, we cannot successfully integrate them at the same time.”

Mr Müller’s comments echo those of Heinz Buschkowsky, an MP from the Social Democratic Party who predicted the total number of migrants reaching Germany by 2020 would be between five and 10 million.

“The situation is irreversible,” he added. “The people who are here now, this society is challenged to integrate them and to offer them a perspective on life.”

He also blasted those who treat the migration debate with empty platitudes such as “refugees welcome”, saying: “This social romanticism, these beautiful speeches, for someone who comes from experience is very difficult to bear.”

First of all, is there any Germans on the board that can vouche for this translation? My German is pretty rough, but it seems to be legit.

Second of all, hypothetical thought from you guys. What would 5 million to 10 million more migrants in Germany by the end of this decade look like? Especially if the male ratio of 70 - 80% continues?

It might be hyperbolic for some of you, but I can't see how this wouldn't usher in some kind of civil war and for certain massive civil unrest. The likely hood of which increases ever year after 2020 and into the mid century.

I mean eventually, a sealed European Border has to be the outcome right? Even if it's because far right parties control most european parliaments in the future. Or the current establishment parties face so much pressure from their electorate that they have to stop the flow through means that would of seemed insane 10 years ago and slightly less insane even today.

 

[maniac-kun]

http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschl...ozent-der-Fluchtwelle-bei-uns-angekommen.html

I'm not linking to the Breitbart (is it gaf approved?) article that translated the above German article.

But some choice quotes.



First of all, is there any Germans on the board that can vouche for this translation? My German is pretty rough, but it seems to be legit.

Second of all, hypothetical thought from you guys. What would 5 million to 10 million more migrants in Germany by the end of this decade look like? Especially if the male ratio of 70 - 80% continues?

It might be hyperbolic for some of you, but I can't see how this wouldn't usher in some kind of civil war and for certain massive civil unrest. The likely hood of which increases ever year after 2020 and into the mid century.

I mean eventually, a sealed European Border has to be the outcome right? Even if it's because far right parties control most european parliaments in the future. Or the current establishment parties face so much pressure from their electorate that they have to stop the flow through means that would of seemed insane 10 years ago and slightly less insane even today.

Thats not going to happen. People are starting to be pissed off by the situation. Merkel will never get elected again.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

You don't seem to understand how language works. Lawyers don't make up language, legal facts don't determine how we speak and understand things, native speakers do.
And this is a prime example why this is,... the 'legal definition' is too limited, and doesn't fit real live properly. Legal definitions are black and white, where reality is nuanced and grey.
The people here don't do something either for safety or for a better future, but a bit of both and for each individual how the two aspects compare will differ.

I'm sorry but this isn't going any further. If you want redefine words to suit your agenda you are going to be called out for it.

I'm not ignoring that the EU is responsible for people walking across the EU, that is my whole point. IS is causing people to walk out of Syria, the EU is causing the massive migration streams across Europe. And I don't know what they want to accomplish, but their policies are completely shortsighted. EU countries seem to want to help as many refugees as possible and at the same time prevent too many refugees from coming to their country. But they do so with policies that cause people to drown in the Mediterranean, certain countries to get flooded while others hardly take any people, and motivate people from completely safe countries like the Balkans to join the massive migrations. Now let's pretend giving Turkey a few billion Euro's and a renewed outlook at EU membership and new border controls between EU countries will help with the problems we're having.

You should show some sources about people from the balkans joining the stream of asylum seekers.

To solve a problem you need to understand a problem, and classic refugees aren't the problem for the EU. They mostly just flee to the first save country they can find, and return in a few months/years. Then there's also a group of more costly refugees from long term problem areas that officially register as refugees who on average can only return home after 15-20 years.
Now the problem is - which also explains why some countries are overrun and others left alone - is that the people seeking asylum now do so strongly considering the quality of life they expect to have in their new country, so for economic reasons. The minority leaving from Syria(most of them are from other countries) might have left their because of IS, but none of the people arrive in an EU country of choice because of IS, that is a choice motivated by other reasons.

What the hell is a classic refugee? The average stay of a refugee is 17 years cause conflicts that keep going for decades.

So if you want to reduce the number of migrants to specific countries, it is not higher border walls you need, or other countries 'willing to accept' more people, but to change what the outlook is for people coming to that country.

Again with the migrants. Are we speaking about migrants or asylum seekers?

I agree, it is a multitude of reasons. Naturally people chose their destination based on many factors, but beyond the neighboring countries, never ONLY for safety reasons. The chances of being allowed to stay is one of the most important ones I think.

You ignore that the countries that the camps are situated in aren't countries that have good infrastructure and the abysmal conditions that they live under.
How anyone could expect people to live in such squalor is beyond me.


Frankly this discussion is done. Between the moving of goalposts and you own arbitrary definition of language and terms I sincerely doubt you are arguing in good faith.

 

[ClosingADoor]

I mean eventually, a sealed European Border has to be the outcome right? Even if it's because far right parties control most european parliaments in the future. Or the current establishment parties face so much pressure from their electorate that they have to stop the flow through means that would of seemed insane 10 years ago and slightly less insane even today.

Yes, if the current stream continues we will see a ton of far right parties elected in the EU. Latest poll in the Netherlands shows Geert Wilders at 41 seats for example. To put this in perspective, the second largest party in the poll (Christen Democrats) is at 19. Our regular left wing party has been reduced from 38 seats now to 9 (!). You need a coalition of 75 seats to have a majority. Things always change here before the election, but still, it shows how many people see this as one of the most important things at the moment.

Border protection will be a major thing in the next decades. People will want to come to Europe from poorer countries and we can not let everyone in. Our populations can not handle hundreds of thousands of people every year, it is just impossible. This needs to be a regulated effort to help the people that most need it and let people in that have skills and a job lined up.

I must add here that I am not too worried about the population increasing in Africa. It will go up, but the continent has shown good growth with economies on the rise, better healthcare and better education. This will lead to declining birth rates over time again and less people wanting to leave their homes since their lives are improving. The most important thing to deal with is instability that set back these improvements, like the collapse of Libya, the terrorist groups in Nigeria and the situation in the Central African Republic.

Edit: Meanwhile, amount of charges filed in Cologne up to 516. About 40% is for sexual assault. Crazy numbers.

 

[Jasup]

http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschl...ozent-der-Fluchtwelle-bei-uns-angekommen.html

I'm not linking to the Breitbart (is it gaf approved?) article that translated the above German article.

But some choice quotes.



First of all, is there any Germans on the board that can vouche for this translation? My German is pretty rough, but it seems to be legit.

Second of all, hypothetical thought from you guys. What would 5 million to 10 million more migrants in Germany by the end of this decade look like? Especially if the male ratio of 70 - 80% continues?

It might be hyperbolic for some of you, but I can't see how this wouldn't usher in some kind of civil war and for certain massive civil unrest. The likely hood of which increases ever year after 2020 and into the mid century.

I mean eventually, a sealed European Border has to be the outcome right? Even if it's because far right parties control most european parliaments in the future. Or the current establishment parties face so much pressure from their electorate that they have to stop the flow through means that would of seemed insane 10 years ago and slightly less insane even today.

Well the statement is a bit disingenuous. While the numbers are somewhat correct, they tell the total number of displaced people around in the region. The disingenuous part comes from the idea reflected by the article that they're all moving towards Europe. Even now most of them are internally displaced in their own countries and in smaller scale as refugees in neighboring countries.

Of course as the conflicts in Syria and Iraq continue things can change, and there is a huge pressure for increased external displacement.

Home to several overlapping crises and humanitarian emergencies, the Middle East is likely to witness further internal and external displacement, with vast numbers of existing refugees and internally displaced people (IDPs) requiring direct humanitarian support.

As the war in the Syrian Arab Republic (Syria) enters its fourth year, a return to widespread violence in Iraq threatens to affect millions, and Yemen's fragile political transition risks sparking renewed internal clashes further affecting the lives of extremely vulnerable IDPs and refugees.

Source: http://www.unhcr.org/pages/49e45ade6.html

The situation in Africa, namely Sub-Saharan Africa, has been brewing a lot longer. There are about 15 million displaced people in the area, mostly internally or in neighboring countries.

The concern about population growth is real. Combined with a steady loss of arable land and for example increase of cheap imported food, many people on the countryside have lost their livelihoods. It also does destabilize the region and increases the chance of conflicts, which there are many already.

Although the vast majority of the people in the region are internally displaced, we've seen dribbles of the movement in place. The most well known route to Europe is through Morocco to Spain.

However, as the situation has been known fo longer and things develop slower, some effective measures to deal with the problem can and has been done:

In Africa, the right to seek and enjoy asylum is largely respected - with some 3 million refugees having found in exile the safety and protection they have lost at home. The generosity of hosting countries in Africa is outstanding; but in recent years, some core values of the protection system have been challenged, with instances of refoulement, as well as difficult access for UNHCR to people who may be in need of international protection. In Southern Africa, an increase in mixed migratory movements has also led to growing hostility towards refugees, putting pressure on asylum and protection space.

More positively, since 2009, implementation of the comprehensive durable solutions strategy for the Angolan refugee situation has continued, in particular through repatriations from Botswana, the Congo, the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC), Namibia, South Africa and Zambia. In addition, local integration measures are being implemented for former Angolan refugees, notably in Zambia.

Source: http://www.unhcr.org/pages/4a02d7fd6.html

Edit: You can check the refugee statistics (few months old) behind the links

 

[YourMaster]

I'm sorry but this isn't going any further. If you want redefine words to suit your agenda you are going to be called out for it.

The benefit of a forum is that you can learn new things from people who know stuff. If you're not open to try to understanding things that people are willing to teach you there's not much point discussing is there. I suggest you go back, read again, and truly try to understand.

You should show some sources about people from the balkans joining the stream of asylum seekers.

Why, anybody following the situation is hearing about the issues with people from all the place joining the migrant streams. For example the famous picture of the drowned toddler washed onto the Greek beach was born to people already living savely in turkey for three years.
But sure, here's a random link.

What the hell is a classic refugee? The average stay of a refugee is 17 years cause conflicts that keep going for decades.

Just the ones that register. Many refugees have already returned to Syria when the situation in certain area's improved. Countless of people are driven from their home around the world every year, and most of them return shortly without showing up for a headcount because they stay in areas with less bureaucracy.

Again with the migrants. Are we speaking about migrants or asylum seekers?

See, now you're again trying to be smart which is just making you look stupid. You and I both know what I was talking about here, and we both know that we both understand. You hoping to score an 'internet debate point' by insisting the people looking to build a live in Germany is distracting you from the argument, so go back and read it again and ignore your semantic disagreements for a moment and you'll learn something again.

You ignore that the countries that the camps are situated in aren't countries that have good infrastructure and the abysmal conditions that they live under.
How anyone could expect people to live in such squalor is beyond me.

I have listed several countries people cross through, all of them save. The first few are not very nice to live in indeed, but that's not the reason they press on. If it where people wouldn't cross through countries like Germany, Austria and France to reach countries like Sweden, Germany and England.

And yes, nobody is blaming the migrants for wanting to go to the country that has the best prospects for them and possibly their family. Everybody wants a good live, and we're lucky to have been born in wealthy countries with limited Islamic presence.
The politicians are to blame however offering the better life and drawing the people to their countries.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

The benefit of a forum is that you can learn new things from people who know stuff. If you're not open to try to understanding things that people are willing to teach you there's not much point discussing is there. I suggest you go back, read again, and truly try to understand.

I understand your agenda, you are trying to paint asylum seekers as economic migrants.
If we talked about migrants then the debate would be different.
You don't get to define what words mean, and many here agree with me.

Why, anybody following the situation is hearing about the issues with people from all the place joining the migrant streams. For example the famous picture of the drowned toddler washed onto the Greek beach was born to people already living savely in turkey for three years.
But sure, here's a random link.

You keep perpetuating this absurd notion that the refugee camp in turky are safe and ok to live in. I don't agree with that bullshit.
I have seen refugee camps and it aint no pretty picture.
Just cause people could live there for a while the influx on people have rendered living there inhuman.

Just the ones that register. Many refugees have already returned to Syria when the situation in certain area's improved. Countless of people are driven from their home around the world every year, and most of them return shortly without showing up for a headcount because they stay in areas with less bureaucracy.

Ahahaha, "the situation has improved".
According to the UN the avrage time for refugees being away from their home is 17 years. The things you say aren't established by the major organ that deals with refugees.

See, now you're again trying to be smart which is just making you look stupid. You and I both know what I was talking about here, and we both know that we both understand. You hoping to score an 'internet debate point' by insisting the people looking to build a live in Germany is distracting you from the argument, so go back and read it again and ignore your semantic disagreements for a moment and you'll learn something again.

Ad hominem attacks are fun. Guess someone is running out of arguments.
Power over language is important. And your agenda is very transparent to me and several other posters.
Regardless what you think we know you there are rules regarding who counts as a refugee, and trying to wave those rules away with arbitrary talk about "nd we both know that we both understand" isn't going to cut it with me or anyone with a critical mind.

I

have listed several countries people cross through, all of them save. The first few are not very nice to live in indeed, but that's not the reason they press on. If it where people wouldn't cross through countries like Germany, Austria and France to reach countries like Sweden, Germany and England.

You have also admitted that there are several reason to why someone seeks asylum is a specific country (family,reputation,friends) and other networks.
Why should people not be able to choose the country the seek asylum in?
Now I understand YOU along with many xenophobics think that they should stay in refugee camps and/or the very first country they aren't actively being killed in.
But the UNs rules regarding aylum seekers lets them seek aylum in the countries of their choice.
But I understand you don't like that.
I do think the should have the right to choose.

I

And yes, nobody is blaming the migrants for wanting to go to the country that has the best prospects for them and possibly their family. Everybody wants a good live, and we're lucky to have been born in wealthy countries with limited Islamic presence.
The politicians are to blame however offering the better life and drawing the people to their countries.

Atm not many politicians are offering anything. Sweden and Denmark have closed their boarders costing millions in the border regions.

 

[BennyBlanco]

Edit: Meanwhile, amount of charges filed in Cologne up to 516. About 40% is for sexual assault. Crazy numbers.

Jesus christ. Staggering numbers.

 

[Kinyou]

Edit: Meanwhile, amount of charges filed in Cologne up to 516. About 40% is for sexual assault. Crazy numbers.

It's hard to believe that just a small part of the 1000 people would be able to do that.

Apparently are there police reports that people organized themselves to meet in cologne.

http://web.de/magazine/panorama/ueb...ilvester-angriffe-frauen-organisiert-31264996

 

[CoolOff]

Similar story breaking in Sweden about the police covering up 200 men being removed from a youth festival in Stockholm last fall. This wasn't reported because they "didn't want to play into SDs hands". SD being our very own xenophobic party.

http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/overgreppen-pa-festivalen-i-stockholm-rapporterades-aldrig-vidare/

DN has taken cognizance of the internal memo that each day of the Youth Festival We are Sthlm sent to police chiefs and the Stockholm police media center. The first reports of sex crimes against female visitors came early.

"The problem with young men who rub themselves against young girls in the audience returned to previous years," it says in a memo from the first day of August last year.

The problems arose as soon as the concert started.

"Despite the relatively small audience ocean harassed several girls by boys and men made sexual advances in the protection of the public sea," they wrote in another report.

- The youngest girls were only eleven twelve. I'd never have let my own daughter to the festival if I knew what happened, says one of the about fifty police officers who were part of the Stockholm police special commanding.

Not sure if it deserves a new thread.

 

[justjohn]

Similar story breaking in Sweden about the police covering up 200 men being removed from a youth festival in Stockholm last fall. This wasn't reported because they "didn't want to play into SDs hands". SD being our very own xenophobic party.

http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/overgreppen-pa-festivalen-i-stockholm-rapporterades-aldrig-vidare/



Not sure if it deserves a new thread.

We had a similar thing here in England with police covering up abuse by Muslim men because they didn't want to play into BNP's hands. It's like the people in charge have all gone raving mad.

 

[Forsete]

Similar story breaking in Sweden about the police covering up 200 men being removed from a youth festival in Stockholm last fall. This wasn't reported because they "didn't want to play into SDs hands". SD being our very own xenophobic party.

http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/overgreppen-pa-festivalen-i-stockholm-rapporterades-aldrig-vidare/



Not sure if it deserves a new thread.

DN also covered up the story, not only the police. DN was contacted by a officer but decided not to publish anything.

No wonder people have no faith in journalists any more, they no longer report the truth.

 

[smurfx]

jesus the authorities are doing more for the right wing than covering such events ever will. not only are people going to become extremely paranoid at immigrants but they won't trust those currently in power and will vote in extremist. the left are sometimes their worst enemy. it seems like europe is either going to be extremely left or right going forward.

 

[His Majesty]

Sweden seems like a really scary country at times.

 

[Kinokou]

Unbelievable. Have your wife raped daily and then blame her for it and make up some bullshit about your honor. And scum like that can live here freely now?

Good that people in Germany are helping these women. Hope they can make a better life for themselves, but it seems clear the problems with this are widespread and I see no immediate solution to suddenly change the way a lot of these men seem to think.

This kind of thing is why there are calls to toughen laws on deporting migrants.

The three strike system, don't remember which state has it, get's a lot of criticism from what I understand, but it almost seems appropriate to introduce for refugees when shit like this is going on.

 

[SlickShoesRUCrazy]

Holy hell, I just read about. Fucking disgusting.

Deport the ones you can, maximum penalty for the ones you can't.

Show these fucks that think this kind of shit is ok is not going to be tolerated.

 

[Chittagong]

Finland had similar media cover up last year. The Finnish media, all of which is massively pro-immigration, would categorically never mention if a suspect on a sexual crime was an asylum seeker / immigrant. So there would be these shocking headlines of a girl gang raped by a group of boys in Helsinki and people would be going out of their way to figure out whose kids they were.

The result was that regular people started to read their news from really shitty right wing nutter sites who would call the courts to get the names of those accused, and time after time they'd turn out to be the asylum seeker crowd. So these sites suddenly became trustworthy in the eyes of a layman.

This has forced the Finnish media to begin to begrudgingly report about sexual crime done by asylum seekers. But even still, the stories are massively slanted. The Finnish news agency STT ran yesterday an interview of the Helsinki vice police chief who told The Independent that Finland is seeing an "all new category of crime emerging, one where foreigners sexually assault women in parks".

STT questioned him along the lines of "are you really claiming women were not sexually assaulted before in parks?" - "Not in Helsinki" was his answer.

"How do you justify this claim?" protested STT. "With police statistics", the police chief replied.

 

[ClosingADoor]

I understand your agenda, you are trying to paint asylum seekers as economic migrants.
If we talked about migrants then the debate would be different.

In a lot of cases we are talking about migrants. The Paris attacker from earlier was Tunisian - and how could this guy stay illegal in France for over five years, then apply for asylum in Germany, give four different identities and travel freely back to France for an assault. Most people arrested in the Cologne crimes are from Algeria, Morocco and Iran. Those countries are not at war and checks should be in place to prevent abuse of the system. Checks before they get to stay for months or years in the country.

jesus the authorities are doing more for the right wing than covering such events ever will. not only are people going to become extremely paranoid at immigrants but they won't trust those currently in power and will vote in extremist. the left are sometimes their worst enemy. it seems like europe is either going to be extremely left or right going forward.

This has been going on for a long time already. A lot of people don't trust "left wing media" anymore and distrust their politicians. It is still amazing to me how the media in question and political parties have just ignored those signs and laughed it away.

The three strike system, don't remember which state has it, get's a lot of criticism from what I understand, but it almost seems appropriate to introduce for refugees when shit like this is going on.

For crimes like rape one strike is enough for me. When there is a victim involved, after one conviction you should be out. And jail times should go up for a lot of crimes - and not just for refugees, but of course for everyone. It is a frustration for both police and the people that criminals of assault and such get out quickly or are not convicted at all.

 

[SpoonyBard]

STT questioned him along the lines of "are you really claiming women were not sexually assaulted before in parks?" - "Not in Helsinki" was his answer.

"How do you justify this claim?" protested STT. "With police statistics", the police chief replied.

And here I was thinking that the refugees from Somalia had been doing that for years and years. Now I don't think what racist nutcases to trust.

 

[YourMaster]

I understand your agenda, you are trying to paint asylum seekers as economic migrants.
If we talked about migrants then the debate would be different.
You don't get to define what words mean, and many here agree with me.

I agree with you, I don't get to define what words mean. Trying to make formal definition of words to label people is limiting reality.

You keep perpetuating this absurd notion that the refugee camp in turky are safe and ok to live in. I don't agree with that bullshit.
I have seen refugee camps and it aint no pretty picture.
Just cause people could live there for a while the influx on people have rendered living there inhuman.

That was not somebody living in camps. I would be the last person to argue that being at the mercy of aid giving by countries in the middle east or turkey is a good thing.
You're forgetting that how poorly the situation has been handled from the EU, by shooting that everybody is welcome, that many people not from war zones have also heard the call and are clogging up the systems.

Ahahaha, "the situation has improved".

You might think of Syria as 'one country' which is classified as a dangerous country by the UN, but again, the situation on the ground is complex. If you look at the parts of Syria that are dangerous today and compare that to the parts that were dangerous a year ago you'll find areas overlap, but also that there are new problem areas and new areas that have calmed down. Most Syrians are still in the region, and those who have fled do not live in very nice conditions. So they often return back home when their area improves again.

Ad hominem attacks are fun.

You're still trying to pick a fight instead of trying to learn new things. You still ignore the argument because you're trying to score points on your superior use of language. You can't see the world as black and white, refugees aren't good, migrants aren't bad. There are people, individuals, and they will act no matter what UN definitions state.

You have also admitted that there are several reason to why someone seeks asylum is a specific country (family,reputation,friends) and other networks. Why should people not be able to choose the country the seek asylum in?
Now I understand YOU along with many xenophobics think that they should stay in refugee camps and/or the very first country they aren't actively being killed in.
But the UNs rules regarding aylum seekers lets them seek aylum in the countries of their choice.
But I understand you don't like that. I do think the should have the right to choose.

Atm not many politicians are offering anything. Sweden and Denmark have closed their boarders costing millions in the border regions.

I have not admitted to that, I have argued to that. My whole argument is that the situation is more complex than short sighted politicians make it out to be. You can't make clear cut distinction between bad people coming for economic reasons and good people just trying to save their family. They are all just people and they all have multiple reasons, some of them valid, some of them misguided.
I'm not holding it against the people wanting to come to Germany or Sweden to do so, neither against the people fleeing from IS, nor against an unemployed Albanian just looking for a better income.

I'm saying the EU is making a mess of the whole situation, they have underestimated the number of people needing aid for the war, and have tried to help them in a way that is not economically feasible and have attracted others who don't need help.
Although there's certainly enough misinformation, mostly people make rational choices. They will choose where to go, and closing borders isn't going to stop that. What I don't like is the politicians acting like it is some kind of river that is just uncontrollably raging through Europe, instead of human beings responding to the alternatives provided to them. They randomly close borders in countries like they are trying to divert the river, and populist parties in other countries are calling for their borders to be closed as well, insanity.

European countries can and should take control. Determine how many people they want to help and how. Make a decision on how to handle still more people coming.
More importantly, decide how many people you want to permanently accept in Germany and what kind of people. How will you take care of the people that need to go back when the war is over, and how can you assimilate the people that may stay.
This didn't 'happen' to Germany and Sweden, they caused this. People drowning in the Mediterranean isn't the fault of ISIS, it is the caused by Germany, Sweden and some other northern countries.

If you raise a barbed fence around your garden, and tell the world that everybody who manages to enter your garden gets free candy, you're to blame to for all the puncture wounds the neighborhood kids will have, and the hungriest kids will have the worst wounds. And this is what we're all doing, with people on one side arguing for more barbs because the kids are trampling the flours, and people on the other side pointing out there really are hungry kids in the neighborhood.

 

[ClosingADoor]

And here I was thinking that the refugees from Somalia had been doing that for years and years. Now I don't think what racist nutcases to trust.

I'd trust the official police numbers and base your opinion about that situation on that.

 

[jelly]

Is that sort of thing allowed or punished were they come from, that's frightening. How do you rewire normality.

 

[Mrmartel]

smurfx;191798552]jesus the authorities are doing more for the right wing than covering such events ever will. not only are people going to become extremely paranoid at immigrants but they won't trust those currently in power and will vote in extremist. the left are sometimes their worst enemy. it seems like europe is either going to be extremely left or right going forward.

The ironic thing is, is that as they travel around the political ideological circle they both meet at the same point and become rigid orthodox totalitarians, I. e. basically Nazi's or North Korean Stalinism. Pick your poison.

 

[funkypie]

Would it really be that much of a big deal of Europe sealed al their boarders for the future. Europe has trouble intergrating people from other parts of Europe, let alone People from a completely different culture. Now multiply that on mass that's happening in Germany etc.

 

[Chittagong]

Would it really be that much of a big deal of Europe sealed al their boarders for the future. Europe has trouble intergrating people from other parts of Europe, let alone People from a completely different culture. Now multiply that on mass that's happening in Germany etc.

There is really no way out of this I'm afraid.

- Building a border between Europe and Middle East / Africa is not feasible for many reasons. Length of border, sea, multiple nations who will never agree to collaborate

- The amount of people wanting to swap Middle East / Africa for Europe will only grow in the next decades as people have access to information

- All European countries will try to pass the puck forwards to their neighbours. Schengen is being undone, and Europe ceases to be the single area it was meant to be

- Since nobody can be in control of the mass migration, there can be no quotas, or real planning. The countries will need to cope with whoever reaches their shores, so they will run bigger budget deficits to fund the welfare. Eventually cuts in welfare will be necessary

- Europe will not force European values on the migrants. So there will be two types of Europeans, ones with "European" values (women, gay, alcohol etc.) and ones with Islamic values

I really don't see any way Europe can realistically have a good outcome where the current level of welfare can be sustained, and where the equality gains done in the last few decades would be maintained. Financially, GDP per capita will go down, debt of countries will go up.

Only the markets have an upside, shorting Euro.

 

[cybamerc]

There is really no way out of this I'm afraid.

I disagree. Obviously we can't prevent all immigrants from the Middle East and Africa from entering Europe but we can do alot more than is done today. European policymakers should be looking at Australia for inspiration. While Australia obviously has the benefit of being surrounded by lots of water having strict border enforcement sends an important signal and obviously works a lot better than doing nothing.

Patrol the waters surrounding Europe and return anyone before they reach European shores. Wall off the external borders and deport anyone who enters illigally. Increase foreign aid dramatically and focus on improving conditions in local refugee camps.

Also, anyone committing serious crimes or expressing sympathies for terrorist groups should be deported immediately.

 

[Maedre]

Also, anyone committing serious crimes or expressing sympathies for terrorist groups should be deported immediately.

not only serious crime. Every crime! They are guests and a guest who commits a crime lost his right to be treated as a guest.

 

[Joel Was Right]

Can anyone give me a quick summary as to whats happened in this thread please?

 

[Phantast2k]

not only serious crime. Every crime! They are guests and a guest who commits a crime lost his right to be treated as a guest.

It's coming: http://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2016-01/uebergriffe-in-koeln-silvester-abschiebung-spd-cdu
Plans of the gov.:
- More CCTV
- More police, more attorneys
- Delinquent asylum seekers lose right for asylum even when getting discharged / suspended sentences (probably not gonna fly)
- Deportation of delinquent migrants if their home countries are deemed safe
- Enforcement of assigned place of residence ("otherwise everyone's just going to move to big cities")

 

[Chittagong]

Can anyone give me a quick summary as to whats happened in this thread please?

- Right wingers glee for being right about the increase in sexual assaults due to immigrants / asylum seekers

- Left wingers glee for the majority of immigrants / asylum seekers not doing sexual assaults

- A really long and confusing philosophical and semantical debate about the word refugees or something like that

- Close borders now / it's our responsibility to help everyone

I think that pretty much covers it.

 

[cybamerc]

- Deportation of delinquent migrants if their home countries are deemed safe

But this is exactly the problem. Even if people are not granted asylum they often get to stay simply because conventions dictate that they cannot be returned. This means that muggers, robbers, rapists, murderers and terrorist sympathisers get to stay eventhough they will never be anything but a burden to our societies.

 

[KDR_11k]

Aren't we going to "liberate" Syria with a ground war at some point tho? That'll ramp up the numbers of refugees fleeing sooner rather than later.

I don't see that happening. There's no "winning" in that situation. We don't want to help Assad but removing him won't fix the country either, as Iraq showed you need to build a whole new state once you destroy the old one, otherwise it's gonna be a bunch of smaller armed groups trying to get a piece of the pie and likely terrorizing the population just as much as the assholes we fought. It may be possible to use a military occupation to stabilize the country long enough to rebuild a government but it'll take a much larger commitment of military forces and rebuilding money than anyone is willing to pay.

 

[Tacitus_]

I'd trust the official police numbers and base your opinion about that situation on that.

Some clarification from the police chief

– Iso porukka miehiä kulkee tuolla ryhmässä ja koskettelee naisia. Minun mielestäni se on uusi ilmiö. Puhutaan 30-50 ihmisen ryhmistä. Tarvitaan 50 poliisia, että semmoinen porukka saadaan poistettua paikalta, kun on päihtymystä ja kieliongelmia

A large amount of men traveling in a group and groping women. I believe that it is a new phenomenon. We are talking about groups of 30-50 persons. You need 50 officers to remove them from a location, when they are intoxicated and there are language problems.

Aapion mukaan yksittäisiä aggressiivisia tapauksia on ollut aiemmin, mutta asia on syksyllä muodostunut sen verran laajamittaisemmaksi, että voidaan puhua jo ilmiöstä. Hän sanoo poliisin olevan huolestunut etenkin ensi kesästä ja ottavan asian puheeksi vastaanottokeskuksissa.

Aapio says that there have been cases of single aggression, but during this autumn it has developed to such a large amount that you can call it a phenomenon. He says that the police is especially worried about the next summer and will be talking about it in the refugee centers.

He also mentions that he believes some teenagers have been provoking them and instructs that parents have a talk with their kids.

Personal note: what the fuck is this about gangs of 30-50 men going around groping people?

 

[KDR_11k]

Camp bastion housed masses of military ordinance and an airport, probably not much need for that. £1 billion is 20x £50 million, hence my suggestion.

Let's say each EU country chucked in 80 million with the larger states chucking in a bit more.

Chicken feed compared to the current "solution."

Here in Germany there's talk about a 3 billion Euro payment to Turkey to use on refugee camps and such. Of course there's the worry that the state will just take that money and not use it for the refugee situation.

 

[Sioen]

I'm ashamed that Europe is not doing shit, has anyone heard a response from them about this? If they did respond it was not well done because nobody here heard anything.. First they force hundreds of thousands of immigrants on us who will never share our values and when shit goes down they remain silent. How anyone can like Europe is a mystery to me.

 

[KDR_11k]

NYT: On Perilous Migrant Trail, Women Often Become Prey to Sexual Abuse




Bolding is mine.

Just one out more cases in the article, but this one made me go WTF the most. How can the guy just be under a restraining order after pimping, raping, stalking and I assume serious threats to his wife???

I'm guessing the actual rape is hard to prove in court, restraining orders are easier to enact.

 

[kirblar]

Personal note: what the fuck is this about gangs of 30-50 men going around groping people?

It seems similar to the issues in India - having hugely skewed #s of young males is not good.

 

[El Topo]

Personal note: what the fuck is this about gangs of 30-50 men going around groping people?

The phenom (at large events) is not unknown in certain (to my knowledge mostly Arab*) countries. Until NYE it was unheard of for Germany though.
*Please correct me if I'm wrong, but that's also from a statement by BKA.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Some clarification from the police chief

He also mentions that he believes some teenagers have been provoking them and instructs that parents have a talk with their kids.

Personal note: what the fuck is this about gangs of 30-50 men going around groping people?

Thanks. Seems like the police are expecting trouble and hopefully they have the people to deal with this.

Not really surprised these are groups of people doing this. Although the size is larger then expected. You see this all the time with groups of young men thinking they are tough and own the streets or something.

Trouble in Western Europe is the police doesn't have that much authority and have a reputation for being soft (at least over here). That doesn't get respect from people used to harsher conditions I think.

 

[Phantast2k]

But this is exactly the problem. Even if people are not granted asylum they often get to stay simply because conventions dictate that they cannot be returned. This means that muggers, robbers, rapists, murderers and terrorist sympathisers get to stay eventhough they will never be anything but a burden to our societies.

Sure, but what do you do with them? Air drop them over Syria?
They need to be incarcerated and deported as soon their home country is deemed safe.
That's all we can do.

Maybe I'd do what Obama admin. did with Guantanamo inmates and "sell them off" to third party countries and definitely consider deporting Kurds & Assad supporters among delinquent ones to Kurdish regions in Iraq and Assad's semi-state respectively. But that's as far as I'd go.

As a nation you can only deal with them without burdening our society by becoming a fascist state and kill them off or you try to solve the crises in their countries. I'd choose the latter...

 

[cybamerc]

Sure, but what do you do with them? Air drop them over Syria?
They need to be incarcerated and deported as soon their home country is deemed safe.
That's all we can do.

The problem is that their home countries may never become safe in their lifetimes. Meanwhile we carry the burden of sustaining these people who do not share our values, who contribute nothing of value and in fact may actively try to undermine our societies.

I do not think we should deport people for petty crimes but it is up to the immigrants to grab the chance they are given. If they do not I really don't care what happens to them. It's not my problem. Well, it shouldn't be.

 

[Starsailor]

The problem is that their home countries may never become safe in their lifetimes.

you know that ISIS is falling right? They lose 30% of their territory in one year, today the third guy of ISIS rank was killed by iraq... ISIS can't take Libya... they're losing guy.

They will come back to their contry after that. We need issue about Bachar situation.

 

[Tacitus_]

you know that ISIS is falling right? They lose 30% of their territory in one year, today the third guy of ISIS rank was killed by iraq... ISIS can't take Libya... they're losing guy.

They will come back to their contry after that. We need issue about Bachar situation.

It's not just about ISIS. There's century old baggage from the partitioning of the Ottoman Empire, sectarian troubles between shias and sunnis, plenty of oil under the ground for world powers to prop up dictators, proxy wars between local powers...

We should help them if - and when we can. I just don't believe that this current situation is going to work out nor that it is a good use of resources even if we didn't have this cultural clash.

 

[Phantast2k]

The problem is that their home countries may never become safe in their lifetimes. Meanwhile we carry the burden of sustaining these people who do not share our values, who contribute nothing of value and in fact may actively try to undermine our societies.

I do not think we should deport people for petty crimes but it is up to the immigrants to grab the chance they are given. If they do not I really don't care what happens to them. It's not my problem. Well, it shouldn't be.

We thought that about the Balkans too. Most of those people returned too. E.g.:
1998: http://www.welt.de/print-welt/article630767/250-000-Bosnien-Fluechtlinge-ausgereist.html
"Out of 350,000 Bosnian war refugees 250,000 have left Germany"

you know that ISIS is falling right? They lose 30% of their territory in one year, today the third guy of ISIS rank was killed by iraq... ISIS can't take Libya... they're losing guy.

They will come back to their contry after that. We need issue about Bachar situation.

ISIS will be overrun in the long run. The real problem is Assad's and Russia's war against rebel held territories.

 

[Starsailor]

We thought that about the Balkans too. Most of those people returned too. E.g.:
1998: http://www.welt.de/print-welt/article630767/250-000-Bosnien-Fluechtlinge-ausgereist.html
"Out of 350,000 Bosnian war refugees 250,000 have left Germany"



ISIS will be overrun in the long run. The real problem is Assad's and Russia's war against rebel held territories.

Well i think the conflict in Syria with AAshad will not take time
US have to deal with North Korea now so...they will change their priority and i don't think Poutine will let Bashar doing mess now.

 

[Kinyou]

ISIS will be overrun in the long run. The real problem is Assad's and Russia's war against rebel held territories.

It should at least be good new for people from Iraq and Afghanistan who also make up a big chunk of the refugees.