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[Ivan Amiibo]

I have it on good authority that the randos who get smacked down by gaf lifers with indignant, witty, and, most importantly, conscious riffs really feel it and have undergone massive shifts in perspective after.

They say the guys on the internet are just as important as the boots on the ground.

 

[East Lake]

Except you should? The fact that you may have done something once before does not mean that you shouldn't call it out. I probably have done or said something racist in my past, should this be taken to mean that I can't call it out when I see it?]

No? Doing something racist and then changing your mind later isn't what I'd call willful ignorance.

 

[sc0la]

These "protestors" would have a better chance having their voices heard if only they would protest in a way that isn't in any way conspicuous or inconvenient to me personally.

I'm all for their cause otherwise, where are my chili fries anyway?

 

[The Kree]

What makes you say that the blockade of traffic was only minutes? Is that a part of the report? That could be the case, but I don't think it is something that is obviously true. And if we assume to isolate the point that traffic was halted for a significant time, let's say an 2 hours, and the patient died in traffic, that there are many treatable injuries that have enough empirical evidence to be deemed treatable. I don't think it is a valid defense to say "Well, the person COULD have still died if he wasn't impeded to the hospital."

Let's use this as an example to further isolate the situation. I am at a park with a friend. We decide to walk up a hike and end up fairly isolated. My friend and I are attacked by a thief and my friend ends up getting stabbed. The thief runs away with my friend's phone. He needs immediate help. I am the only one that can call for help. Too bad for him, I am currently fixated on arguing in a thread on Neogaf. I put my need to argue on Neogaf over his well-being and refuse to find help or even call with my phone. After arguing for 2 hours, I call for help and my friend died from internal bleeding. The autopsy and doctor who called the time of death both rule that it is likely that my friend had a high chance of surviving if he had been treated more quickly. Should I be legally responsible for anything? Surely, the thief who stabbed him should be put to trial and pay for his crime, but what about me? Do I get to hide behind the fact that I didn't stab him or that there was still a chance that he could still die regardless?

Yes, I know this example is kind of goofy, but that doesn't change the point. My point is that one who plays a conscious role in preventing somebody from medical attention should have some level of accountability.

OK, so a price must be paid for equality. I'm OK with your imaginary victims of a traffic jam biting it to pay that cost.

 

[Two Words]

Yeah ok I am done. The lengths you guys are going to create the ridiculous scenarios in order to vilify these protesters is ridiculous.

I'm not villifying anybody with that post. You made the argument that they could not be held responsible for it since it is unknown if the person wouldnt have died and they didnt cause the injury. I'm simply making an example that tests this claim.

 

[Coffee Dog]

OK, so a price must be paid for equality. I'm OK with your imaginary victims of a traffic jam biting it to pay that cost.

HOW MANY HYPOTHETICAL LIVES MUST BE LOST

 

[Herbs]

HOW MANY HYPOTHETICAL LIVES MUST BE LOST

all of them.

 

[Metrotab]

Yeah ok I am done. The lengths you guys are going to create the ridiculous scenarios in order to vilify these protesters is ridiculous.

But my scenario was real.

- emergency surgeon called by hospital
- stuck in traffic due to labor union blockade
- because of police assistance manages to get through
- arrives 45 minutes later than planned
- starts operation with delay
- patient doesn't make it

It's true that you can never say the patient would have made it. But the hospital administration considered this situation to be hindering medical services, and sued "against unknown people" for manslaughter.

Again, source: http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/957/Binnen...t-klacht-in-voor-onvrijwillige-doodslag.dhtml

I'm just saying, blocking traffic can have drastic consequences. It's not just about arriving later at home/work.

 

[Two Words]

OK, so a price must be paid for equality. I'm OK with your imaginary victims of a traffic jam biting it to pay that cost.

At least you're accepting that there is a cost. Most people here are acting as if there is no cost since somebody dying in the traffic due to a delayed ambulance is a crazy hypothetical or something.

 

[MHWilliams]

I have it on good authority that the randos who get smacked down by gaf lifers with indignant, witty, and, most importantly, conscious riffs really feel it and have undergone massive shifts in perspective after.

They say the guys on the internet are just as important as the boots on the ground.

I read this post wondering where the substantive response to the topic at hand would be, given the poster's chiding of others within the thread, but I seemingly found nothing.

Huh. Weird.

The best I can offer anyone is the information I've imparted in the thread, which I usually understand is not likely to change minds given a number of facts outside of my control. The rest of the posters have their own reasons, ranging from education to catharsis on the topic. You provide neither result. Catharsis perhaps, but unrelated to the topic.

 

[sc0la]

I have it on good authority that the randos who get smacked down by gaf lifers with indignant, witty, and, most importantly, conscious riffs really feel it and have undergone massive shifts in perspective after.

They say the guys on the internet are just as important as the boots on the ground.

Because it's not about speaking out for what's right, only changing a trolls mind. If you can't confirm a mind change you shouldnt post at all right guys?

 

[Coffee Dog]

I read this post wondering where the substantive response to the topic at hand would be, given the poster's chiding of others within the thread, but I seemingly found nothing.

Huh. Weird.

how many times do you think he typed and then deleted "gaf hivemind"

 

[The Kree]

At least you're accepting that there is a cost. Most people here are acting as if there is no cost since somebody dying in the traffic due to a delayed ambulance is a crazy hypothetical or something.

No, I actually think you're insane.

 

[besada]

I'm fine with the protest. Yes, it sucks to get stuck in traffic. Yes, there is a small chance of negative outcomes (although some people seem to think that fire engines, hospitals, and ambulances only exist on one side of the bridge and that emergency vehicles never have to route around traffic). But the point of these sorts of protests is to create a situation which can't be ignored. I imagine many people will find it inconvenient, but I suppose the parents and families of the young men being executed by a corrupt police force probably have a prior claim on that irritation.

Can the people complaining come up with better protest ideas that can't be ignored? I can think of a few, but they all involve blocking access to services, and discomfiting the population, which seems to be the complaint.

 

[Herbs]

how many times do you think he typed and then deleted "gaf hivemind"

a few

 

[freeofgreed]

I'm not villifying anybody with that post. You made the argument that they could not be held responsible for it since it is unknown if the person wouldnt have died and they didnt cause the injury. I'm simply making an example that tests this claim.

Your example isn't comparable in the slightest. You're basing off the assumption that the protesters wouldn't let the ambulance pass/would actively prevent it from going forward. Which I doubt would happen.

 

[Two Words]

No, I actually think you're insane.

You must have a pretty low threashold for insanity if it is simply for disagreeing with you.

 

[The Kree]

You must have a pretty low threashold for insanity if it is simply for disagreeing with you.

It's not for simply disagreeing with me. It's because of many other things you've written.

 

[Metrotab]

OK, so a price must be paid for equality. I'm OK with your imaginary victims of a traffic jam biting it to pay that cost.

So are potential lives lost less important than this specific form of protest?

 

[freeofgreed]

You must have a pretty low threashold for insanity if it is simply for disagreeing with you.

That's not why he thinks you're insane.

 

[Velcro Fly]

we have to weigh which is more likely

random person losing their life because of bridge being shut down

or

random person getting shot by police for doing mundane things that many of us take for granted as safe and normal and ok.

while unfortunate if someone does lose their life because of the protest, i think any benefit far outweighs that risk.

 

[Two Words]

Your example isn't comparable in the slightest. You're basing off the assumption that the protesters wouldn't let the ambulance pass/would actively prevent it from going forward. Which I doubt would happen.

Whether they do it directly or indirectly has little distinction for me. They are perfectly aware of the act potentially causing that to happen. Obviously, intentionally blocking an ambulance is more morally reprehensible than indireclty doing so, but the act of blocking a road is willing accepting that possibility.

 

[Captin Quacker]

I'm fine with the protest. Yes, it sucks to get stuck in traffic. Yes, there is a small chance of negative outcomes (although some people seem to think that fire engines, hospitals, and ambulances only exist on one side of the bridge and that emergency vehicles never have to route around traffic). But the point of these sorts of protests is to create a situation which can't be ignored. I imagine many people will find it inconvenient, but I suppose the parents and families of the young men being executed by a corrupt police force probably have a prior claim on that irritation.

Can the people complaining come up with better protest ideas that can't be ignored? I can think of a few, but they all involve blocking access to services, and discomfiting the population, which seems to be the complaint.

"Hey now I'm all for that but does it have to impede my progress to the strip club?"

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

The point of protests is to fight back against the establishment and to act as a means of non-violent attack on their interests and power structure. Only through disruption of what they control can you begin to see capitulation. Anyone who thinks otherwise is looking through rose colored glasses IMO

Reading what a lot have said against these sorts of protests, I feel like many people are so deeply into the status quo and the expected order of their privileged lives that they've never thought about this for a second. They have no fucking idea what's going on. They've never had the smallest spark of a thought about the world looking any different than it does at exactly this moment they are living. We live in a country that couldn't exist without protest, and they have no idea what one actually looks like. They celebrate the holiday of a disruptive, direct action activist but get mad at the thought of anyone actually being that.

 

[Two Words]

It's not for simply disagreeing with me. It's because of many other things you've written.

Feel free to share it with some experts and have me certified.

 

[freeofgreed]

Whether they do it directly or indirectly has little distinction for me. They are perfectly aware of the act potentially causing that to happen. Obviously, intentionally blocking an ambulance is more morally reprehensible than indireclty doing so, but the act of blocking a road is willing accepting that possibility.

Who cares? You said you were talking legally, and when it comes to the law they absolutely would make the distinction between whether it was intentional or not.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

how many times do you think he typed and then deleted "gaf hivemind"

Just because you don't agree with guy on the internet doesn't mean you have to come up with some hypothetical to shame him..sheesh.

 

[The Kree]

So are potential lives lost less important than this specific form of protest?

Every time a police academy holds a graduation ceremony how many potential lives are lost?

 

[Metrotab]

I'm fine with the protest. Yes, it sucks to get stuck in traffic. Yes, there is a small chance of negative outcomes (although some people seem to think that fire engines, hospitals, and ambulances only exist on one side of the bridge and that emergency vehicles never have to route around traffic). But the point of these sorts of protests is to create a situation which can't be ignored. I imagine many people will find it inconvenient, but I suppose the parents and families of the young men being executed by a corrupt police force probably have a prior claim on that irritation.

Can the people complaining come up with better protest ideas that can't be ignored? I can think of a few, but they all involve blocking access to services, and discomfiting the population, which seems to be the complaint.

Remember that protest where they all went lying around on the floor of malls? I think that might have been Trayvon-specific but I don't remember. That protest 'annoyed' people, but didn't actively hinder critical transportation services.

How about blocking trains, subways and buses? Those means of transport are not used for critical means, but you can reach a lot of people in big cities that way.

 

[Two Words]

Who cares? You said you were talking legally, and when it comes to the law they absolutely would make the distinction between whether it was intentional or not.

Actually, it often doesn't matter in law. For example, if you commit a felony and that felony leads to the death of somebody due to your actions, you can often be charged with murder.

 

[sc0la]

Just because you don't agree with guy on the internet doesn't mean you have to come up with some hypothetical to shame him..sheesh.

Hypothetically... How delicious were all the cats you've eaten Gordon?

 

[TheOctodad]

I'm pro BLM.

That said, protesting is difficult and I think often people want to do SOMETHING and often protest in ways that aren't as effective and meaningful as they could potentially be.

Unfortunately the BLM also has a difficult challenge because what they are protesting isn't as directly concrete (in many ways) as voting rights/restaurants that don't allow blacks, etc.

I think this creates a lot of strain on how/why to protest. BLM wants and needs to have a voice, but the exact locus of this battlefield is ambiguous.

I'm sympathetic towards protesting in any capacity, but I just think actual change and momentum will only be gained when something more creative and focused begins to take place. If I had the solution, I'd be happy to share it ...

 

[Claude Augario]

There's always that dying person in the ambulance somewhere out there that's being negatively impacted any time minorities demand attention to long-standing problems afflicting them, isn't there?

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Hypothetically... How delicious were all the cats you've eaten Gordon?

I'll PM you..

Spoiler

but yeah, tons.

 

[sc0la]

Remember that protest where they all went lying around on the floor of malls? I think that might have been Trayvon-specific but I don't remember. That protest 'annoyed' people, but didn't actively hinder critical transportation services.

How about blocking trains, subways and buses? Those means of transport are not used for critical means, but you can reach a lot of people in big cities that way.

Surgeons don't ride the subway, confirmed.

 

[freeofgreed]

Actually, it often doesn't matter in law. For example, if you commit a felony and that felony leads to the death of somebody due to your actions, you can often be charged with murder.

This is not true. This is why we have different degrees of murder and charges like manslaughter. Now you're just being disingenuous.

 

[Two Words]

This is not true. This is why we have different degrees of murder and charges like manslaughter. Now you're just being disingenuous.

It actually is true. To be clear, I'm not saying that the appropriate charge for the protestors or me in my example is murder.

 

[Captin Quacker]

There's always that dying person in the ambulance somewhere out there that's being negatively impacted any time minorities demand attention to long-standing problems afflicting them, isn't there?

yep

 

[Mory Dunz]

I'm fine with the protest. Yes, it sucks to get stuck in traffic. Yes, there is a small chance of negative outcomes (although some people seem to think that fire engines, hospitals, and ambulances only exist on one side of the bridge and that emergency vehicles never have to route around traffic). But the point of these sorts of protests is to create a situation which can't be ignored. I imagine many people will find it inconvenient, but I suppose the parents and families of the young men being executed by a corrupt police force probably have a prior claim on that irritation.

Can the people complaining come up with better protest ideas that can't be ignored? I can think of a few, but they all involve blocking access to services, and discomfiting the population, which seems to be the complaint.

Block restaurants, libraries, malls, movie theaters, etc.
Important things of general leisure.


Don't eff with traffic imo. People have things to do. You don't know what you're impeding.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

The lengths y'all are going through..gawd DAMN!

 

[freeofgreed]

It actually is true. To be clear, I'm not saying that the appropriate charge for the protestors or me in my example is murder.

Then what exactly is your point then? What would the protesters get charged with? They weren't committing any crime so if someone does accidentally die, there's no way it can be pinned on them.

 

[Metrotab]

Surgeons don't ride the subway, confirmed.

I actually don't know, we don't have subways where I'm from. I would assume an emergency surgeon not to take public transport to their work?

 

[Two Words]

Then what exactly is your point then? What would the protesters get charged with? They weren't committing any crime so if someone does accidentally die, there's no way it can be pinned on them.

I don't know the laws of that state/county, but I have to assume there is some law against willfully blocking traffic. I don't know what exactly they'd be charged with and I think we'd both have to admit we're not lawyers and it is above our heads. I think it is at least clear that there would be a case against them that would likely go to court, which is unfortnately stacked against black people as well.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

OK, so a price must be paid for equality. I'm OK with your imaginary victims of a traffic jam biting it to pay that cost.

What if its a young black kid who was just shot across town by a corrupt cop and the protest is in between the ambulance and the nearest hospital?

WHAT YOU GONNA DO THEN!?

 

[Metrotab]

I don't know the laws of that state/county, but I have to assume there is some law against willfully blocking traffic. I don't know what exactly they'd be charged with and I think we'd both have to admit we're not lawyers and it is above our heads. I think it is at least clear that there would be a case against them that would likely go to court.

In my real life situation, the hospital is seeking trial for involuntary manslaughter.

 

[The Kree]

What if its a young black kid who was just shot across town by a corrupt cop and the protest is in between the ambulance and the nearest hospital?

WHAT YOU GONNA DO THEN!?

I'm gonna sit in traffic and watch the cop walk.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Block restaurants, libraries, malls, movie theaters, etc.
Important things of general leisure.


Don't eff with traffic imo. People have things to do. You don't know what you're impeding.

"Black brunch" and similar protests have been happening everywhere. People are still angry and ignorant about black lives, and they're still doing fucking nothing about freeing black people.

 

[freeofgreed]

I don't know the laws of that state/county, but I have to assume there is some law against willfully blocking traffic. I don't know what exactly they'd be charged with and I think we'd both have to admit we're not lawyers and it is above our heads. I think it is at least clear that there would be a case against them that would likely go to court, which is unfortnately stacked against black people as well.

Yes I agree, that's why this whole hypothetical was fucking stupid....like I've been saying since the beginning. And I disagree with the last bit. There's no way in hell a court case would be brought up against the protesters if this happened. Maybe a bs civil suit, but a criminal one? Naw.

 

[Ozium]

I don't know the laws of that state/county, but I have to assume there is some law against willfully blocking traffic. I don't know what exactly they'd be charged with and I think we'd both have to admit we're not lawyers and it is above our heads. I think it is at least clear that there would be a case against them that would likely go to court, which is unfortnately stacked against black people as well.

if they were to be charged with anything it would be disorderly conduct which is a misdemeanor, they are basically citations. people would either pay the fine or appear in court to contest it. it's like getting a speeding ticket m8