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[Dio]

Yeah... not happening.

I don't have confidence in them doing it... unless they can get the GG developers to do it...

They're not going to be able to.

Xrd has extremely talented programmers and artists who invented new techniques that they named after one of their people (the lines were named Motomura lines) and bone scaling is a thing in Unreal 4, they like to think, because their dudes were able to make it work in UE3.

Xrd has a ton of work put into it to make it look the way it does, and I don't think SNK has been following stuff like the GDC talk Christopher Motomura made about the development of the Xrd style.

Here is a model by Christopher Motomura himself, done as something in his own free time - this model has nothing to do with Guilty Gear, it's his own personal thing.

The fact that they have ONE GUY talented enough to do this shit in his free time as a lead artist really helps Xrd.

Xrd was made with every single individual frame in mind. This meant that they move parts of the face and body around for every single frame to make it look more 2D. The more frames they have to do that with, the more work is on them.

The frame-by-frame 'correction' to make it look less 2D can be seen here:

Original 3d model:

A sketch of what that scene would look like in 2D.

Correcting the model to look more 2D.

You see, many of the Guilty Gear models had somewhere around 400-600 bones, and 170 of them were on the head, to move expressions around to 'look more 2D' from specific angles and so they could change things around based on a 'base model.'

Also, the stages were built so that buildings in the background would look weird from any other angle than straight on:

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/g6Dv9Ij.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/cVQTRb4.jpg[/IMG]

And even for specific scenes, character models would be tweaked to be seen from one very specific angle. For this pose, May is only meant to be seen from above, otherwise she would be freakishly elongated.

More info:

http://www.4gamer.net/games/216/G021678/20140714079/

Basically, in closing, I believe that Inti Creates simply doesn't have the talent, or even money, that the Xrd team has. They namedropped Xrd as an influence in their Kickstarter but they very obviously don't have the talent and manpower to do what Xrd did.

 

[GuardianE]

Basically, in closing, I believe that Inti Creates simply doesn't have the talent that the Xrd team has. They namedropped Xrd as an influence in their Kickstarter but they very obviously don't have the talent and manpower to do what Xrd did.

Most studios don't have the talent or time. People say "Do it like Xrd" without realizing how difficult Xrd was to make. Arcsys didn't throw on a shader and call it a day.

 

[Gbraga]

Are you really that shocked about them prettying her up a bit more and making her as visually appealing as possible? That funded picture is 100% waifu type stuff.

Yes it is! <3

She's so adorable <3

It is, breast size has nothing to do with waifu crap directly. Waifu stuff is more like that congrats pic, the picture with her with glasses and so on. The boob stuff is sex appeal stuff. While they cross lines they are not directly related.

YES!

I will be using this shit even if it drops my HP to 1 permanently. Megane Miriam is the best!

You just get it. Are you sure you're not one of us?

 

[QisTopTier]

Ok. What term would you suggest?

Eye candy, fanservice, pandering <-- though this is a loaded word

 

[PdotMichael]

It is, breast size has nothing to do with waifu crap directly. Waifu stuff is more like that congrats pic, the picture with her with glasses and so on. The boob stuff is sex appeal stuff. While they cross lines they are not directly related.

It's pretty much the equivalent of using a slur out of context with what it is ment for.

There is no reason to use another term than sex appeal in this discussion.

Also using whatever congrats picture where the MC is holding a cake as proof that they go full "waifu" (whatever that means) is quite absurd.

 

[Extollere]

Well, in his case I can understand his position. Being a porn artist probably means he is especially sensitive to people criticizing sexualized designs.

Listen, my comment was exaggerated... but if I'm going to be honest here, I guess I slightly prefer the more covered up, smaller boob edit that was just posted (or is it just more covered up?). I also don't think it really matters much either way. I don't think criticizing needlessly sexualized designs is unwarranted, and I usually prefer that if a character is sexualized that it's because of their persona (IE, Bayonetta), suits the world, or serves a purpose. Tantalizing the viewer (or rather, some of the viewers), when it doesn't fit the character, game, or context is a choice worthy of some criticism. I know it's a gray zone in certain situations when it concerns creativity, but I just can't for the life of me figure out the types of posters who just assume certain body types automatically equates to pandering, or is somehow offensive... Nobody I've ever spoken with in real life has a problem with Miriam's design. My wife herself is super excited to cosplay the character and she doesn't even fit the body type.

I definitely think there is a lot room for better representation of females in games (alongside creative sexual designs where appropriate), but I also don't see a slightly revealing large breast as inherently sexual, pandering, or offensive.

 

[Aeana]

It's pretty much the equivalent of using a slur out of context with what it is ment for

What?

 

[TreIII]

Most studios don't have the talent or time. People say "Do it like Xrd" without realizing how difficult Xrd was to make. Arcsys didn't throw on a shader and call it a day.

Bingo. I always took it that IGA, Inti and crew were going to try "shooting for the moon" when they said they wanted to have something like Xrd, but the actual likelihood of getting anywhere close was going to be pretty slim to nil.

 

[Dio]

Listen, my comment was exaggerated... but if I'm going to be honest here, I guess I slightly prefer the more covered up, smaller boob edit that was just posted (or is it just more covered up?). I also don't think it really matters much either way. I don't think criticizing needlessly sexualized designs is unwarranted, and I usually prefer that if a character is sexualized that it's because of their persona (IE, Bayonetta), suits the world, or serves a purpose. Tantalizing the viewer (or rather, some of the viewers), when it doesn't fit the character, game, or context is a choice worthy of some criticism. I know it's a gray zone in certain situations when it concerns creativity, but I just can't for the life of me figure out the types of posters who just assume certain body types automatically equates to pandering, and is somehow offensive... Nobody I've ever spoken with in real life has a problem with Miriam's design. My wife herself is super excited to cosplay the character and she doesn't even fit the body type.

I definitely think there is a lot room for better representation of females in games (alongside creative sexual designs where appropriate), but I also don't see a slightly revealing large breast as inherently sexual, pandering, or offensive.

Yeah, I get you. Like I said, I understand your position, and share it to some degree. Again, I think the design is fine as is.

I said it a few pages ago, but I did say that it's a very cynical position to say that every character design that one perceives as sexualized is done so for the sole purpose of pandering to people.

That being said, I can see it from the people you're talking about's perspective too - pretty much every poster you're talking about that I've seen over the last few pages is mentioning that they're 'tired' of hypersexualization and the like, rather than they're being really 'offended.' I think it's fine for them to bring that up in this thread. That being said, I don't think this is the right hill to fight on in that respect.

 

[Dice]

I think it's a bit messy in here. Little real argument seems to be happening but you get the aura of controversy. It seems to me like people who are offended have nothing specific to attack, just a fanservicey vibe. People feeling defensive have nothing to be defensive about, just a paranoia about potential argument directions that could spring out. So nobody is really committing to anything from themselves or against another and it is creating a passive-aggressive feel.

Overall it seems like the dynamic going on is rights vs respects vs embarrassments.

If someone wants to make/enjoy a fanservicey game, they have that right. It's understandable that some want creative freedom to be what it is, especially if they are fans of the fanservice.

If someone feels like too few females in games represent them/real-life females and want some games they are interested in to change their portrayals to be more relatable (different from pure realism; I don't need Joe Average for a male protagonist but Gears characters are too hypermasculine to be cool to me) and enjoyable, that's fine and understandable.

If some people don't personally care one way or the other about fanservice but would rather be able to be open about their videogames with family/non-gamer friends and not seem pervy because of the female characters, that's understandable. I know one time I was explaining MGS4 conceptually to my roommate and he thought it was cool but explaining Quiet/trying to make it clear I'm a franchise fan and she had nothing to do with my interest in the game would be uncomfortable at best.

It looks like everyone involved wants to express their sentiment but avoid seeming like "the outraged one" yet maybe also point out someone else as unreasonable. Can we take a step back to recognize this? I don't really see anyone trying to change everyone else to be like them, or force the game to be one way or the other, or anyone outraged in reality. People are just coming from their different angles and having different notions of what the optimal game design would be for different reasons.

As I said before, I personally don't care what goes on with the design. However, I can put myself in that place. I am a man, so trying to put myself in the shoes of a female gamer who agrees that big boobs are in the world and a type of normal and sexiness isn't inherently problematic, I don't know what the exact line between "cool sexy" and "lame sexy" is, but again looking at things like Gears of War characters in their masculinity I can understand it can be a bit nebulous and the line can be thinner than you think. Initially it does seem silly arguing over where a hemline lands, but if I imagine a cutscene playing with my roommate checking out what I'm playing, I know it would make a difference in giving a vibe I'm playing "one of those kinds" games or not.

 

[@MUWANdo]

Most studios don't have the talent or time. People say "Do it like Xrd" without realizing how difficult Xrd was to make. Arcsys didn't throw on a shader and call it a day.

The people running the KS said "don't worry about the 3D thing, look at Xrd" so it's not like they didn't invite direct comparison.

 

[GuardianE]

The people running the KS said "don't worry about the 3D thing, look at Xrd" so it's not like they didn't invite direct comparison.

They also cited Strider, saying that both were "2.5D can be handled in a way that honors a classic aesthetic while allowing for new possibilities." Both Strider and Guilty Gear are pretty different aesthetically, and they were just being used as examples for proper 2.5D.

 

[Saikyo]

Really like the shader, I hope they show it zoomed out and with the background.

They need to show a video or something so we can see it in motion and judge it better.

 

[RM8]

What?

As I said earlier - people think it's a direct attack to their person when you imply you don't like fanservice. I wasn't exaggerating at all, lol.

 

[injurai]

( &#8790;&#8255;&#8790

Yes, yes, I can see what you mean.

 

[QisTopTier]

What?

As I said earlier - people think it's a direct attack to their person when you imply you don't like fanservice. I wasn't exaggerating at all, lol.

I don't feel that way myself. Slur probably wasn't the best example.

How does " Calling a lemon a lime" work instead? xD

 

[fertygo]

In Gameplay view, I'd like to see the tattoo more than risen up dress tho

 

[@MUWANdo]

They also cited Strider, saying that both were "2.5D can be handled in a way that honors a classic aesthetic while allowing for new possibilities." Both Strider and Guilty Gear are pretty different aesthetically, and they were just being used as examples for proper 2.5D.

Sure, and the moment they mentioned those two games in succession I knew they (or at least the people running the KS) were setting unrealistic expectations and that it'd come back to bite them, but many people didn't read it that way or didn't read it at all.

 

[Dr.Acula]

Found the picture here, there is also pink.
http://amzn.com/B014QZROE4

Yo, the item description is: "MOE Open Chest Knitting Wale Sweater Turtleneck Long Sleeve"

MOE.

MOE.

That's too perfect.

Anyhow, it seems like her boobs are getting bigger and bigger with every update. It's fine, I don't care either way... but if she starts bending over and shows off her panties every time she jumps and she moans orgasmically when she attacks and all this other wack stuff then I'm gonna be pissed.

I love Castlevania in part because it's not about pretty people and sex appeal in the game. Sure, some of the Japanese press material is like that, but playing the game I don't really notice or care.

Fine, big boob maid glasses up all the art, just keep it off the in-game model.

And WTF at that knee? I know the whole "sharp knees" meme, but IGA and co. sheared that thing off with a wood planer, yikes!

 

[kiryogi]

Yo, the item description is: "MOE Open Chest Knitting Wale Sweater Turtleneck Long Sleeve"

MOE.

MOE.

That's too perfect.

Anyhow, it seems like her boobs are getting bigger and bigger with every update. It's fine, I don't care either way... but if she starts bending over and shows off her panties every time she jumps and she moans orgasmically when she attacks and all this other wack stuff then I'm gonna be pissed.

I love Castlevania in part because it's not about pretty people and sex appeal in the game. Sure, some of the Japanese press material is like that, but playing the game I don't really notice or care.

Fine, big boob maid glasses up all the art, just keep it off the in-game model.

And WTF at that knee? I know the whole "sharp knees" meme, but IGA and co. sheared that thing off with a wood planer, yikes!

I believe its a customization option. Along with Elf Ears.

People really weren't paying attention to the kickstarter it seems.

 

[Serenade_King]

Yo, the item description is: "MOE Open Chest Knitting Wale Sweater Turtleneck Long Sleeve"

MOE.

MOE.

Spoiler

Sorry, couldn't resist >_<.

 

[Skilletor]

I play lots of Japanese games, but ignore most discussion of them because...well, just look at this thread.

What is a waifu?

 

[Sapiens]

I play lots of Japanese games, but ignore most discussion of them because...well, just look at this thread.

What is a waifu?

A waifu is a situation in which we pointlessly discuss how women video game characters should look and dress because we don't have to worry about a fictional character expressing any personal opinions and thus, can project our own beliefs onto this drawing.

 

[Stone Ocean]

What is a waifu?

Affectionate weeb way of saying who your favourite female character in a work of fiction is.

 

[petran79]

Basically, in closing, I believe that Inti Creates simply doesn't have the talent, or even money, that the Xrd team has. They namedropped Xrd as an influence in their Kickstarter but they very obviously don't have the talent and manpower to do what Xrd did.

Arcsys previous work, Battle Fantasia, did not have any experienced 3D artists either, yet it turned out a decent game:

http://www.siliconera.com/2015/08/2...a-and-the-art-of-making-a-2-5d-fighting-game/

In those days, it was the turning point when 2D fighting games were trying to shift to 3D, but no one was able to make that marriage perfect. It was said that incorporating 3D in a 2D versus fighting game was impossible.

We were a team with zero 3D experience, it was difficult to assign to me men who have experience and who entered the company earlier and are older than me. There were gender role issues deeply rooted in Japan. It is considered a shame for a man to work under woman because many people think "men first, ladies second".

I only had 2D art experience, so I had to buy a 3D textbook to study and to find a way to make a 2.5D basic game format work with a main programmer and a newly-graduate junior artist I found. We treated 3D as just an art style to give expression to a 2D fighting game, and we combined it with 2D techniques from pixel art ages. I have experience as a pixel artist and I’m free from common 3D wisdom.

I discovered that the way we did this was very unorthodox, at least for most 3D graphic experts. Most experts focused too much on consistency and realism.

Some of the unique things we did:

1. Flip character for real-time rendering:
This was required to improve player’s experience. Normal 3D has different looks for Player 1 and Player 2’s side.

For example, Player 1 shows the front of the character while Player 2 shows the back of the character. I think that players of 2D fighting games memorize the poses and animation of the characters, and often, they focus on the frame details of the character’s movement. I felt that if the characters look different for Player 1 and 2, it would make gameplay stressful.

2. Unique mask system:
Usually when 3D models hit each other, the parts will intersect. The programmer made a unique mask system to make it have more of a 2D look.

3. Less motion interpolation:
Motion interpolation was a big benefit of 3D graphics, but I reduced it a lot to make brisk animations and game tempo.

4. Irrational movement in between animation frame, less recovery animation frame:
I prefer cool and irrational movement than natural “correct” ones. During the age of pixel, we usually don’t make animation frames for recovery to keep the data size small and development time short.

5. Change body parts size using animation frames, depending on the situation to give the characters a more 2D look.

 

[Gbraga]

I play lots of Japanese games, but ignore most discussion of them because...well, just look at this thread.

What is a waifu?

A miserable little pile of secrets.

 

[Crocodile]

New Update is Live!

Lots of new screenshots <3

 

[Easy_D]

That looks fucking great.

 

[Novum_Veritas]

New Update is Live!

Lots of new screenshots <3

Those screenshots, look so good.
Can't wait until release for this gem.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

shit just got real yo ulllll

 

[Finale Fireworker]

Holy fucking shit

 

[Beth Cyra]

Looks wonderful.

Aside from FF7R easily my most hyped game.

 

[Heero5]

Beautiful

 

[GuardianE]

Wow, that Character Shader 3:

Looking really good.

 

[PfantzyPantz]

Seriously, that's flubbin amazing

 

[Spieler Eins]

Looks much better now.

 

[Vamphuntr]

That screenshot is definitely better than most of the stuff they've shown so far.

Character shader 3 looks better to me.

 

[OniBaka]

Looks amazing.

 

[Drilbit777]

This game is looking so good now

 

[Finale Fireworker]

We all agree that Character Shader 3 is the best one by a huge margin, right?

 

[CrackPebbles]

Character shader 3 looks amazing.

 

[Inuhanyou]

New Update is Live!

Lots of new screenshots <3

That looks fucking great.

Wow, that Character Shader 3:


Looking really good.

YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Damn they are making PROGRESS! Looks ay better than MN9, and shader number 3 blows both 1 and 2 out of water! Now obviously those looking for a super hardcore cell shaded anime look with 2D aesthetics would be disappointed, but this really does look great from a 3D perspective, and the art emulates the 2D anime style enough, although not to the level of XRD or Naruto obviously

IGAAAAA

 

[Easy_D]

I wonder why ambient occlusion is off in some of the background settings, it looks really flat without it. Character shader 3 is some great stuff though, I hope they use it!

Maybe all the presets will end up in the game as settings . Either way it looks fucking sweet, UE4 doing work

 

[Alo81]

This is stellar

 

[Shouta]

That's a masssssive improvement.

 

[Beth Cyra]

We all agree that Character Shader 3 is the best one by a huge margin, right?

Huge? No, I like the flat look alot to and I prefer her hair in Character 1.

Ill be happy with 3 though.

 

[kdoll08]

Money well spent. The beta can't come soon enough.

Spoiler

I know it's way off

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Still wish it would just be a 2D game but it still looks pretty good.

 

[Wagram]

It looks very nice, but I think character 1 is much better than 3. Just my preference though.

 

[Giolon]

This is shaping up so good. Why can't MN9 have come out this way?

I think I slightly prefer Character 3 over Character 1, but I could be happy either way. I don't like having the different styles between the character and the backgrounds though. So whichever wins, I hope they're both the same.