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[Drensch]

Ted Cruz or Trump: I'm glad to see Bernie denounce the evil that is Planned Parenthood.

Bernie: I said nothing of the sort.

Cruz/Trump: So you're flip flopping now? Just like a Socialist.

Bernie: Turns into James Stockdale.



Long story short, Bernie's statement, regardless of intent, is amateur hour. If you guys think Hillary's attacks are "low and brutal" You haven't seen 2 billion in negative ads run against old man socialist.

 

[Dude Abides]

I don't consider "establishment" suspect.

Ok. But Sanders clearly does.

I think there's a disconnect here between our views on the severity of Sanders' response. I consider his statement a fairly inconsequential return to one of the key themes of his campaign, almost a non-answer. He distinguished between the political establishment and the economic establishment and said he had friends and supporters in the political establishments in question but that they stuck with the safe choice.

Not the safe choice, the establishment (and therefore non-Sanders and bad) choice. Sanders would never say Clinton is the safe choice and he is the risky choice. And he didn't distinguish between the political and economic establishments; he did just the opposite and drew a similarity between them.

I think if you're trying to see some big hypocrisy or inconsistency here you're reaching, because beyond the more logic/pedant oriented points I made earlier, he freely admitted to a positive association with the group that endorsed Clinton, which I don't think a candidate would do if they were trying to paint them as some irredeemable organisation.

I didn't day "big" hypocrisy or "irredeemable." That's you exaggerating my position in order to dismiss it. He concedes they do good things but they're still part of the establishment, which is a bad thing.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Ted Cruz or Trump: I'm glad to see Bernie denounce the evil that is Planned Parenthood.

Bernie: I said nothing of the sort.

Cruz/Trump: So you're flip flopping now? Just like a Socialist.

Bernie: Turns into James Stockdale.



Long story short, Bernie's statement, regardless of intent, is amateur hour. If you guys think Hillary's attacks are "low and brutal" You haven't seen 2 billion in negative ads run against old man socialist.

Democrats attacking Liberals disingenuously, going after their own base is different from Liberals being attacked by Donald Trump and conservatives. State by state there is literally no way a Republican could win those states.

Bernie no... what are you saying?

I have to imagine this is just a misunderstanding, I can't understand why he would say or mean something so foolish.

Its not a misunderstanding. Bernie said it loud and clear. He supports progressive organizations like Planned Parenthood, and seeks to strengthen their influence, but they have obviously decided to go with the candidate who has the better name recognition, biggest money pool and biggest name donors , and is the darling of the DNC(even the leader of the DNC worked on Clinton's campaign in 07)

And so they have backed the establishment candidate. Its not a mistake to point that out and say, those forces who he is going against in this campaign in order to win.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfmxWOreG28

Rachel asked him about his thoughts on the matter, and he answered truthfully on the matter.

Honestly, nobody would have even known about such a non story if Hillary had not tweeted about it obviously trying to make it into a story.

 

[exmachina64]

I found an interesting article thatvI think highlights exactly why PP gravitated towards Clinton.

This is how the two of them reacted to the Flint Water Crisis

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/hillary-clinton-flint_us_569e66c3e4b04c8137617f05?1tgfogvi=And that was exactly PP's argument, Clinton is proactive, Sanders is not.

This is why I support Hillary in microcosm.

As much as I love Bernie, he had to know calling for Snyder's resignation was not going to work. If he didn't, then that speaks volumes for how he perceives the political system. Should Snyder have resigned for abetting this crisis? Yes, but at least Hillary helped get something effective accomplished.

 

[ivysaur12]

This is why I support Hillary in microcosm.

As much as I love Bernie, he had to know calling for Snyder's resignation was not going to work. If he didn't, then that speaks volumes for how he perceives the political system. Should Snyder have resigned for abetting this crisis? Yes, but at least Hillary helped get something effective accomplished.

We should also all know that the Lt. Gov of Michigan is an even bigger shitstain than Snyder is, and that would put him in power.

Thanks, PD.

 

[Aztechnology]

Democrats attacking Liberals disingenuously, going after their own base is different from Liberals being attacked by Donald Trump and conservatives. State by state there is literally no way a Republican could win those states.



Its not a misunderstanding. Bernie said it loud and clear. He supports progressive organizations like Planned Parenthood, and seeks to strengthen their influence, but they have obviously decided to go with the candidate who has the better name recognition, biggest money pool and biggest name donors , and is the darling of the DNC(even the leader of the DNC worked on Clinton's campaign in 07)

And so they have backed the establishment candidate. Its not a mistake to point that out and say, those forces who he is going against in this campaign in order to win.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfmxWOreG28

Rachel asked him about his thoughts on the matter, and he answered truthfully on the matter.

Honestly, nobody would have even known about such a non story if Hillary had not tweeted about it obviously trying to make it into a story.

Ok then I misunderstood. Now I understand what he was saying with that. Still it just seems so foolish to make a statement like that right now. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

 

[Inuhanyou]

This is why I support Hillary in microcosm.

As much as I love Bernie, he had to know calling for Snyder's resignation was not going to work. If he didn't, then that speaks volumes for how he perceives the political system. Should Snyder have resigned for abetting this crisis? Yes, but at least Hillary helped get something effective accomplished.

So, Hillary tacking to the left in a campaign season, and using her resources for that means she's better, even though her history and who funds her campaigns shows that its a ploy?

Syder's staff even says that FEMA was already fully working on the situation for days before Hillary even said anything and had nothing to do with affecting the situation.

I don't mean to be cynical, but your going to have to excuse me for being cynical and accusing her of using Flint's plight for political points, using the resources she knows Bernie and other Democrats don't have to show 'leadership'.

It would atleast be good but her face has changed too many times during this campaign season to take seriously.

She wanted to be like her husband, then when that didn't work she wanted to be herself, and then she wanted to be super liberal, and then she wanted to be 'a moderate pragmatist' and then she wanted to be another term of Obama during the debate.

Her lines of attack toward single payer, Bernie's statements on planned parenthood and other things have just been so disingenuous and wrong, how can i be expected to take such a politician seriously to be honest?

I don't see how people can be swayed by such things, as if that really mattered to their policies. But because she projects cosmetic 'strength' she will do things apparently. Obama did as well, and his result, even during his super majority was nonsense.

Ok then I misunderstood. Now I understand what he was saying with that. Still it just seems so foolish to make a statement like that right now. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

It was in response to a question asked by Rachel, and he answered truthfully on the matter, even if it opened him up to disingenuous attack. I respect that far more than i dislike him not thinking about political answers for questions.

 

[ivysaur12]

So, Hillary tacking to the left in a campaign season, and using her resources for that means she's better, even though her history and who funds her campaigns shows that its a ploy?

Syder's staff even says that FEMA was already fully working on the situation for days before Hillary even said anything and had nothing to do with affecting the situation.

I don't mean to be cynical, but your going to have to excuse me for being cynical and accusing her of using Flint's plight for political points, using the resources she knows Bernie and other Democrats don't have to show 'leadership'.

It would atleast be good but her face has changed too many times during this campaign season to take seriously.

She wanted to be like her husband, then when that didn't work she wanted to be herself, and then she wanted to be super liberal, and then she wanted to be 'a moderate pragmatist' and then she wanted to be another term of Obama during the debate.

I don't see how people can be swayed by such things, as if that really mattered to their policies. But because she projects cosmetic 'strength' she will do things apparently. Obama did as well, and his result, even during his super majority was nonsense.

BREAKING: Anything good that Hillary Clinton tries to do is pandering. Even when she's being helpful, she's just trying to win another election!

 

[exmachina64]

We should also all know that the Lt. Gov of Michigan is an even bigger shitstain than Snyder is, and that would put him in power.

Thanks, PD.

I'm not going to pretend that I'm familiar with Michigan politics, though Calley's work with autism insurance reform in the state appears to be good.

So, Hillary tacking to the left in a campaign season, and using her resources for that means she's better, even though her history and who funds her campaigns shows that its a ploy?

Syder's staff even says that FEMA was already fully working on the situation for days before Hillary even said anything and had nothing to do with affecting the situation.

I don't mean to be cynical, but your going to have to excuse me for being cynical and accusing her of using Flint's plight for political points, using the resources she knows Bernie and other Democrats don't have to show 'leadership'.

It would atleast be good but her face has changed too many times during this campaign season to take seriously.

She wanted to be like her husband, then when that didn't work she wanted to be herself, and then she wanted to be super liberal, and then she wanted to be 'a moderate pragmatist' and then she wanted to be another term of Obama during the debate.

I don't see how people can be swayed by such things, as if that really mattered to their policies. But because she projects cosmetic 'strength' she will do things apparently. Obama did as well, and his result, even during his super majority was nonsense.

It was in response to a question asked by Rachel, and he answered truthfully on the matter, even if it opened him up to disingenuous attack. I respect that far more than i dislike him not thinking about political answers for questions.

We both believe our respective opinions too firmly for me to argue with you, but I will say that I'm not as cynical as you.

 

[Aztechnology]

It was in response to a question asked by Rachel, and he answered truthfully on the matter, even if it opened him up to disingenuous attack. I respect that far more than i dislike him not thinking about political answers for questions.

I think to understand fully I'm going to have to watch the interview piece myself. Thanks for providing it. It should flush out any remaining information I'm lacking.

 

[Sh1ner]

Isn't the full quote:

“I would love to have the endorsement of every progressive organization in America. We’re very proud to have received recently the endorsement of MoveOn.org. We’ve received the endorsement Democracy for America. These are grassroots organizations representing millions of workers. … What we are doing in this campaign, it just blows my mind every day because I see it clearly, we’re taking on not only Wall Street and economic establishment, we’re taking on the political establishment. ... So, I have friends and supporters in the Human Rights Fund and Planned Parenthood. But, you know what? Hillary Clinton has been around there for a very, very long time. Some of these groups are, in fact, part of the establishment.”

This bit bolded is missing in the OP. I got the quote from: https://newrepublic.com/article/128078/no-bernie-sanders-not-attacking-planned-parenthood-human-rights-campaign

Thehill.com is acting in bad faith by partially quoting Bernie. For clicks or out of stupidity or for controversy or to paint Sanders bad light. Whatever the reason, its going to be a bitch to correct as "a lie can travel halfway across the world before the truth can get its boots on."

 

[Inuhanyou]

BREAKING: Anything good that Hillary Clinton tries to do is pandering. Even when she's being helpful, she's just trying to win another election!

No, the narrative that posters here have been arguing is "this makes her more electable than Bernie Sanders, she shows leadership!"

Not saying what she did was bad, people did need to chime in on Syder which is what happened, but her going that 'extra mile' had nothing to do with her 'being more of a leader' and everything to do with her having to get out in front of it to show her reactionary status while under huge political pressure to perform for the voter base.

Its parlor tricks. Unfortunately her record doesn't show that, but you can list a dozen corrupt things she's done in the senate and just as a political figure and still get dismissed by her supporters, so i don't really know what to say anymore besides the fact that some people don't wont listen to reason.

We both believe our respective opinions too firmly for me to argue with you, but I will say that I'm not as cynical as you.

You don't have to be as cynical to agree with me bro.

Do you think Hillary's attack that Bernie sanders was going to take away people's healthcare and give it to GOP members that Chelsea Clinton doubled down on was true or not?

Do you think her attack that he was a sexist because he told her off during a debate was fair?

Do you think that her disingenuous implication here(that she started by the way with that tweet) that Bernie Sanders is against or hates Planned Parenthood and is trying to attack their organization because he acknowledged the facts is really something true?

Do you think her political favors for wall street and the credit unions because of their donations to her direct bank account that she lied about were right?

What i'm highlighting are facts here, these facts have contributed to my cynicism of her, not the other way around. I can't give Hillary the benefit of a doubt because she didn't earn that.

 

[A More Normal Bird]

Ok. But Sanders clearly does.

Not the safe choice, the establishment (and therefore non-Sanders and bad) choice. Sanders would never say Clinton is the safe choice and he is the risky choice. And he didn't distinguish between the political and economic establishments; he did just the opposite and drew a similarity between them.

I didn't day "big" hypocrisy or "irredeemable." That's you exaggerating my position in order to dismiss it. He concedes they do good things but they're still part of the establishment, which is a bad thing.

I get the feeling we're just talking past each other at this point. When I said I don't see "establishment" as suspect, I meant that as far as Sanders use of the term goes, it seems like he's just pointing out the obvious; he considers these big, established institutions as part of the political establishment, and susceptible to the conservatism that comes with that, regardless of their general purpose and politics, not as conniving Wall Street lackeys. This is why I don't consider his statement to be an attack per se, though obviously context and framing have had an effect. The same goes for my use of safe; yes Sanders wouldn't refer to himself as "risky" in that sense, but if he says that the establishment has picked the establishment candidate then the implication is that they're sticking with the safe, known quantity.

Sorry if my unnecessary adjectives put you off, but I'm not misrepresenting your position in order to dismiss it. Honestly, I've outlined the base logic of my reasoning and the limits of the point I'm trying to make (a fairly inconsequential, pedantic one) a few times now and haven't gotten a direct response, so I don't really appreciate that accusation.

"Big" was a fluff word, "irredeemable" was a strong word to highlight that your claim of hypocrisy rests on Sanders publicly treating his perceived "political establishment" and "economic establishment" (which he maybe doesn't consider irredeemable, but clearly has a dim view of) as one and the same, whilst accepting donations/endorsements from the former. Sanders referred to PP and the like as the political establishment and as separate from the economic establishment and Wall Street. He then said that he had a positive association with members of these groups. I think that's a pretty clear difference compared with how he attacked Clinton for her association with Wall Street. Sanders did not attack Clinton for her association with these organisations, nor did he say he would not want to be endorsed by these political establishments (going by Sh1ner's post he said the exact opposite). If he had done either of those, then yeah, he'd be a hypocrite. I feel that although Sanders criticised these organisations for what he perceives as their establishment conservatism in endorsing Clinton and therefore said that he was taking them on (in a literal sense, in the primary), he clearly does not view them like the economic establishment that is his campaign's main target.

Just a reminder that I'm not American or an invested Sanders supporter and am not trying to claim that he couldn't have chosen his words better or clarified his support for these organisations or that they were wrong to endorse Clinton. If you still feel that his use of "establishment" is an invariant criticism that paints him into a corner and makes him a hypocrite then we're probably just going to go in circles.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Isn't the full quote:


This bit bolded is missing in the OP. I got the quote from: https://newrepublic.com/article/128078/no-bernie-sanders-not-attacking-planned-parenthood-human-rights-campaign

Thehill.com is acting in bad faith by partially quoting Bernie. For clicks or out of stupidity or for controversy or to paint Sanders bad light. Whatever the reason, its going to be a bitch to correct as "a lie can travel halfway across the world before the truth can get its boots on."

Ok? Doesn't change the quote literally at all.

 

[Arkeband]

Ok? Doesn't change the quote literally at all.

I mean, you didn't even create the thread properly until we shamed you into it, so why would we care what your opinion of the quote is?

The distinction you're missing is that, in context, Bernie states he wants their support before he points out that they're part of the establishment. When you cut out the part where he wants their support, you create misdirection, to better set up your farcical Bernie vs. PP/HRC narrative.

And then you got the replies you wanted, "fuck you Bernie Sanders" and even comparisons to Ted Cruz.

 

[tanooki27]

Bernie no... what are you saying?

I have to imagine this is just a misunderstanding, I can't understand why he would say or mean something so foolish.

he's a radical. what do you want from the guy? should he try biting his tongue to make himself more "electable"? doesn't that go against his brand?

it's a massive catch-22

 

[excelsiorlef]

I mean, you didn't even create the thread properly until we shamed you into it, so why would we care what your opinion of the quote is?

Lol. Get over yourself.


You didn’t shame me into doing anything.

I think it's amazing how you guys can't even for a second consider that your guy made a mistake in his choice of words. That everything is a conspiracy to make your guy look bad

 

[royalan]

BREAKING: Anything good that Hillary Clinton tries to do is pandering. Even when she's being helpful, she's just trying to win another election!

Right!? This is getting more than a little insane at this point.

Regardless of what paranoid explanations people come up with to explain Hillary's motives for helping the people of Flint, that does not change the fact that she actually did something to HELP THE PEOPLE OF FLINT. For god fucking sakes, people!

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Bernie does the equivalent of letting out a soundbite and moving on with his life, and we're supposed to be masturbating to his words or some shit.

 

[Arkeband]

Right!? This is getting more than a little insane at this point.

Regardless of what paranoid explanations people come up with to explain Hillary's motives for helping the people of Flint, that does not change the fact that she actually did something to HELP THE PEOPLE OF FLINT. For god fucking sakes, people!

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Bernie does the equivalent of letting out a soundbite and moving on with his life, and we're supposed to be masturbating to his words or some shit.

The only reason Flint was brought up was to contrast how much more presidential Hillary is because she helped while Sanders called for a resignation.

Unless Sanders has aides to send to Flint (who could actually do anything), this is a false equivalency. Hillary has networks of people under her thumb due to the offices she has held.

 

[royalan]

The only reason Flint was brought up was to contrast how much more presidential Hillary is because she helped while Sanders called for a resignation.

Unless Sanders has aides to send to Flint, this is a false equivalency.

Do you think the people of Flint give a single shit about any of that?

Also, why is HIllary's willingness to use her resources to do some good instead of just talking about it somehow a bad thing? Because it makes her look good? No shit it does.

 

[gutter_trash]

Right!? This is getting more than a little insane at this point.

Regardless of what paranoid explanations people come up with to explain Hillary's motives for helping the people of Flint, that does not change the fact that she actually did something to HELP THE PEOPLE OF FLINT. For god fucking sakes, people!

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Bernie does the equivalent of letting out a soundbite and moving on with his life, and we're supposed to be masturbating to his words or some shit.

there is no win with extremists. Extremism blinds themselves into believing that everyone else who isn't ideologically pure as them to be fake.

I can't wait for Super Tuesday and Florida so that we can put all this behind us.

 

[eBay Huckster]

The only reason Flint was brought up was to contrast how much more presidential Hillary is because she helped while Sanders called for a resignation.

Is this supposed to be a bad thing?

 

[Valhelm]

The more Bernie continues to talk about Wall Street, the less interested I become in his campaign.

What was the point of saying this? Talk about carpet bombing your campaign.

Why does Wall Street criticism bother you?

 

[Arkeband]

Is this supposed to be a bad thing?

this is a false equivalency.

If you have two candidates and one has resources and one doesn't, that doesn't mean one cares more, it just means one has resources and one doesn't.

If you want to trust the governor's word, those aides didn't actually help in any meaningful way. Getting the guy out of office could be the best thing for that area.

Both Hillary and Bernie's criticisms of him are correct. Trying to frame this prematurely as "Hillary Saves Flint, Michigan" is just silly.

 

[Mael]

Is this supposed to be a bad thing?

You obviously can't help people if your intention aren't pure as crystal.
What Clinton should have done is clearly to follow Sanders' lead and send a sternly worded letter while people were getting poisoned.
No I don't get it either.

If you have two candidates and one has resources and one doesn't, that doesn't mean one cares more, it just means one has resources and one doesn't.

If you want to trust the governor's word, those aides didn't actually help in any meaningful way. Getting the guy out of office could be the best thing for that area.

Both Hillary and Bernie's criticisms of him are correct. Trying to frame this prematurely as "Hillary Saves Flint, Michigan" is just silly.

Because clearly a Republican governor was going to be pushed to resignation because 2 dem candidates in a primary ask him to.
Especially a guy who came to power as part of the tea party wave?

 

[B-Dubs]

If you have two candidates and one has resources and one doesn't, that doesn't mean one cares more, it just means one has resources and one doesn't.

If you want to trust the governor's word, those aides didn't actually help in any meaningful way. Getting the guy out of office could be the best thing for that area.

Both Hillary and Bernie's criticisms of him are correct. Trying to frame this prematurely as "Hillary Saves Flint, Michigan" is just silly.

Bernie's been in congress for like 2 decades now, are you telling me in all that time he's never bothered making friends with anyone at the DEP who he could call to try and help?

 

[Arkeband]

You obviously can't help people if your intention aren't pure as crystal.
What Clinton should have done is clearly to follow Sanders' lead and send a sternly worded letter while people were getting poisoned.
No I don't get it either.

Your timeline of events is completely backwards.

Regardless, the talk about the Flint water crisis is a total derail of this thread.

Bernie's been in congress for like 2 decades now, are you telling me in all that time he's never bothered making friends with anyone at the DEP who he could call to try and help?

I have no idea. This is one of my reservations about Bernie stepping into office, as I'm not sure who his VP pick would be, let alone his cabinet. As one of only two independents in the Senate, his career has (rightfully) been about being an outsider to the broken system, so the odds he's greased as many palms as the former First Lady and Secretary of State are close to nil.

 

[brochiller]

Have any of the major news outlets picked up on this? The only place I've seen this is GAF.

 

[Mael]

Your timeline of events is completely backwards.

Regardless, the talk about the Flint water crisis is a total derail of this thread.

You misunderstand politic to be about truth when it really is about perception.
The timeline does not matter in the least.

Have any of the major news outlets picked up on this? The only place I've seen this is GAF.

CNN reported on it already.
Now is CNN considered major or not after the BS they pulled these past few years...

I have no idea. This is one of my reservations about Bernie stepping into office, as I'm not sure who his VP pick would be, let alone his cabinet. As one of only two independents in the Senate, his career has (rightfully) been about being an outsider to the broken system, so the odds he's greased as many palms as the former First Lady and Secretary of State are close to nil.

You people are too much.
Him not making any friends at his workplace is really him not being a slimy politician who tried to corrupt half of the Hill!
Because clearly you cannot have anyone working with you from the Hill unless you put a bag with a dollar sign in their hand one time before.

 

[HylianTom]

Have any of the major news outlets picked up on this? The only place I've seen this is GAF.

MSNBC brought it up a few times yesterday; it was Maddow's first segment last night. I don't think it'll end-up being a big deal.

 

[B-Dubs]

I have no idea. This is one of my reservations about Bernie stepping into office, as I'm not sure who his VP pick would be, let alone his cabinet. As one of only two independents in the Senate, his career has (rightfully) been about being an outsider to the broken system, so the odds he's greased as many palms as the former First Lady and Secretary of State are close to nil.

Wow dude, you can make friends and get things done without being corrupt you know.

EDIT: Seriously though, and people say PoliGAFers are jaded.

 

[Holmes]

Have any of the major news outlets picked up on this? The only place I've seen this is GAF.

It's a gaffe that'll last one news cycle. Probably after today it'll stop getting play in the media. It'll probably still get brought up as a subtle jab in campaign events though.

 

[Extra Sauce]

Is Bernie slipping into dementia right in front of our eyes?

 

[exmachina64]

You don't have to be as cynical to agree with me bro.

Do you think Hillary's attack that Bernie sanders was going to take away people's healthcare and give it to GOP members that Chelsea Clinton doubled down on was true or not?

Do you think her attack that he was a sexist because he told her off during a debate was fair?

Do you think that her disingenuous implication here(that she started by the way with that tweet) that Bernie Sanders is against or hates Planned Parenthood and is trying to attack their organization because he acknowledged the facts is really something true?

Do you think her political favors for wall street and the credit unions because of their donations to her direct bank account that she lied about were right?

What i'm highlighting are facts here, these facts have contributed to my cynicism of her, not the other way around. I can't give Hillary the benefit of a doubt because she didn't earn that.

It's politics, everyone lies. Who on Earth have you voted for in prior elections? Your criticisms can be directed at virtually every presidential candidate that's ever run, let alone smaller elections.

 

[onipex]

If you have two candidates and one has resources and one doesn't, that doesn't mean one cares more, it just means one has resources and one doesn't.

If you want to trust the governor's word, those aides didn't actually help in any meaningful way. Getting the guy out of office could be the best thing for that area.

Both Hillary and Bernie's criticisms of him are correct. Trying to frame this prematurely as "Hillary Saves Flint, Michigan" is just silly.

Even if you removed the resources she sent what Hilary said was a still a better response to the situation than what Bernie said IMO. She spoke about the social, economic, and racial reasons for the slow response ( something I expected Bernie to do), then gave useful recommendations on how to handle the situation. Bernie called for the governor to step down. As much as he goes on about how unfair the system is he really missed a prime example when talking about this issue.

Of course it's all politics but during a election cycle like this highlighting the unfair and illegal treatment of the people in Flint is a pretty good chance to put the ole political game to some good use. Bernie mentions everyday how the top percent own so much wealth and influence and yet he doesn't use this to point out how the state government pandering to the wealthy caused them to intentionally poison the people they are suppose to represent. Hilary at least addressed some of it , and to me that was the highlight of her entire campaign. Bernie let me down on this issue.

 

[brainchild]

This is why I support Hillary in microcosm.

As much as I love Bernie, he had to know calling for Snyder's resignation was not going to work. If he didn't, then that speaks volumes for how he perceives the political system. Should Snyder have resigned for abetting this crisis? Yes, but at least Hillary helped get something effective accomplished.

It could be argued just as well that Hillary's tendency to be proactive in times of crises can also lead to poor and hasty decision making. In a vacuum, cases like this Flint situation show that such a trait can work in everyone's favor, especially given the resources at her disposal. However, applied across the board, such a trait could work to everyone's detriment, like her decision to vote for the war in Iraq.

I'm not in any way trying to discredit Hillary for helping with the Flint crisis, but simply demonstrating why this trait that you praise her for doesn't necessarily and inherently make her a better leader than Bernie, especially when Bernie has demonstrated himself to be the better 'big picture'/'long range' thinker between the two, which is just as important of a skill when it comes to good leadership.

 

[Kevinroc]

http://www.msnbc.com/mtp-daily/watch/panic-time-for-democratic-establishment-605252163874

Chuck Todd spoke with Sanders Strategist Tad Devine.

Todd: Do you believe that Planned Parenthood and Human Rights Campaign—that these are part of the Democratic establishment that's trying to defeat you?

Devine: I do, Chuck. I think the leadership of Washington-based groups—and it's not just those two—are part of a political establishment here in Washington.

(And of course, Bernie would welcome their endorsements should he be the Democratic Nominee.)

I'm gonna say this as nicely as I can.

Bernie is fucking up with this. This is terrible messaging.

 

[exmachina64]

It could be argued just as well that Hillary's tendency to be proactive in times of crises can also lead to poor and hasty decision making. In a vacuum, cases like this Flint situation show that such a trait can work in everyone's favor, especially given the resources at her disposal. However, applied across the board, such a trait could work to everyone's detriment, like her decision to vote for the war in Iraq.

I'm not in any way trying to discredit Hillary for helping with the Flint crisis, but simply demonstrating why this trait that you praise her for doesn't necessarily and inherently make her a better leader than Bernie, especially when Bernie has demonstrated himself to be the better 'big picture'/'long range' thinker between the two, which is just as important of a skill when it comes to good leadership.

You're not wrong, however, I understand what you're saying and that's why I said "in microcosm." To skip more directly to the point than I otherwise might, and since you mention military action, while I can agree upon Iraq, there are plenty of extenuating circumstances -- the Bush administration blatantly lying and fabricating evidence, to name two.

Let us not forget that was at a time when American democracy was still functional and Congress, even the Democratic members, sided with the president, as Congress and the Supreme Court have historically done on matters of foreign policy.

We won't know the extent Hillary has learned from her foreign policy mistakes unless she's in office, but I also won't discount the possibility that Bernie's trademark caution might translate into making him overly hesitant to act. There are many pressing conflicts that will occupy his time and there will be a limit to his ability to change the course of U.S. diplomacy. I don't expect he'll be able to turn Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Israel into enemies and make a close ally out of Iran, for example.

I'll obviously support Bernie is he wins the primaries, including volunteering for his campaign, but Republicans will easily hammer him on foreign policy during his administration if he wins the general election. I'm under no illusions that the American public isn't as hawkish as it is and I dread the possibility that Republicans turn Bernie into another Jimmy Carter.

 

[Particle Physicist]

http://www.msnbc.com/mtp-daily/watch/panic-time-for-democratic-establishment-605252163874

Chuck Todd spoke with Sanders Strategist Tad Devine.



(And of course, Bernie would welcome their endorsements should he be the Democratic Nominee.)

I'm gonna say this as nicely as I can.

Bernie is fucking up with this. This is terrible messaging.

Well, you don't get more clear than that. :/

 

[ErasureAcer]

http://www.msnbc.com/mtp-daily/watch/panic-time-for-democratic-establishment-605252163874

Chuck Todd spoke with Sanders Strategist Tad Devine.



(And of course, Bernie would welcome their endorsements should he be the Democratic Nominee.)

I'm gonna say this as nicely as I can.

Bernie is fucking up with this. This is terrible messaging.

You see Thom Hartmann's piece calling out Hillary's debate lies regarding Bernie's vote in 2000? Meanwhile her chief financial officer is the real one to blame? Hillary will not win the nomination...and her status quo politics as usual will destroy her in the General. People do not trust her as they shouldnt.

Bernie calling some establishment buddy buddy organizations out for their endorsements isnt controversial...Hillary's smear campaign is.

Oh yeah. Bernie is up 8 points in Iowa 51-43 with 11 days to go. Bernie is honest...Hillary is a liar. That is what this election is about. It is a no brainer.

 

[commedieu]

http://www.msnbc.com/mtp-daily/watch/panic-time-for-democratic-establishment-605252163874

Chuck Todd spoke with Sanders Strategist Tad Devine.



(And of course, Bernie would welcome their endorsements should he be the Democratic Nominee.)

I'm gonna say this as nicely as I can.

Bernie is fucking up with this. This is terrible messaging.

.

A lot of bernie fans here acknowledge its a slip, but they do see past the misstep as it is, yea, true. Just how much is it WORTH to your campaign? To stick it to PP.. when they aren't on par with "establishment" abuse and actually provide a shit ton of amazing services for women and men.

 

[excelsiorlef]

http://www.msnbc.com/mtp-daily/watch/panic-time-for-democratic-establishment-605252163874

Chuck Todd spoke with Sanders Strategist Tad Devine.



(And of course, Bernie would welcome their endorsements should he be the Democratic Nominee.)

I'm gonna say this as nicely as I can.

Bernie is fucking up with this. This is terrible messaging.

This is like when they doubled down on the data theft. Embarrassing.

Sanders: Right message, wrong messanger

 

[CDX]

http://www.msnbc.com/mtp-daily/watch/panic-time-for-democratic-establishment-605252163874

Chuck Todd spoke with Sanders Strategist Tad Devine.

Todd: Do you believe that Planned Parenthood and Human Rights Campaign—that these are part of the Democratic establishment that's trying to defeat you?

Devine: I do, Chuck. I think the leadership of Washington-based groups—and it's not just those two—are part of a political establishment here in Washington.

(And of course, Bernie would welcome their endorsements should he be the Democratic Nominee.)

I'm gonna say this as nicely as I can.

Bernie is fucking up with this. This is terrible messaging.

Why is his campaign doing this? Responding this way just keeps it in the news cycle longer.

 

[commedieu]

This is like when they doubled down on the data theft. Embarrassing.

Sanders: Right message, wrong messanger

Just isn't worth giving the other team free points. I get it..

but, its a race. Why give yourself a fucking flat tire? Ah well. Maybe he likes the challenge?

 

[excelsiorlef]

You see Thom Hartmann's piece calling out Hillary's debate lies regarding Bernie's vote in 2000? Meanwhile her chief financial officer is the real one to blame? Hillary will not win the nomination...and her status quo politics as usual will destroy her in the General. People do not trust her as they shouldnt.

Bernie calling some establishment buddy buddy organizations out for their endorsements isnt controversial...Hillary's smear campaign is.

Oh yeah. Bernie is up 8 points in Iowa 51-43 with 11 days to go. Bernie is honest...Hillary is a liar. That is what this election is about. It is a no brainer.

Excuses...excuses...this is a terrible approach...

 

[RPGCrazied]

Was this a slip up? Yeah, this isn't good. Clinton it is then. That said, I'd rather have Bernie than anyone on the GOP side.

 

[commedieu]

Was this a slip up? Yeah, this isn't good. Clinton it is then. That said, I'd rather have Bernie than anyone on the GOP side.

Same, but fuck me if the dude isn't sandersing himself. My problem with this tactic, is that its literally only going to equate in support for Hillary. Hes not going to get a surge of women voters because he is technically demonizing PP under the same language as Wall Street Cronies/bankers etc.

GG all...

See ya after Lord Queen Hillary removes your Benghazi's.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Same, but fuck me if the dude isn't sandersing himself.

It just makes me think he'll get eaten alive in the GE

 

[lednerg]

Tad Devine, you're not helping.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Tad Devine, you're not helping.

Well he solidified that he did indeed say exactly what I said he said. So I'm thankful for that. Lol