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[mckmas8808]

None of these games were considered "woke" until after you came home and played the game.

Can you point me to a successful original IP that is "woke", that does not depend on the principle of stripping value from an existing IP that laid the groundwork without it?

OR a situation where they did this to existing successful IP, and the sequel after they tricked everyone did not suffer?

One example please.

I don't consider games "woke", so I can't give you any name of those games. I just listen to the cultural crazies that lists certain games woke and take it from there.

 

[mckmas8808]

Personally I don't think COVID is a great excuse for it. They're just making more expensive games, slower and slower than ever. Shawn Layden and Iwata were calling this out years before COVID.

To act as if COVID didn't screw up alot of things in media is insane. It was a once in a 100 year death killing disease that changed the GLOBE over a 2-3 year period. Lets not get lazy and act as if it was some small flu that affected 1 million people only.

 

[BlackTron]

I don't consider games "woke", so I can't give you any name of those games. I just listen to the cultural crazies that lists certain games woke and take it from there.

So you can only figure what "woke" is to the rest of the world when you need to make a list of them, but when I ask you for one game this ability becomes broken?

There is more than 70 layers of nuance to your BS sir.

 

[Ozriel]

Cut the unnecessary cost, stop the obsessive chase of graphics, and let the truly talented ones do the work. And you'll make good money, surprise, surprise.

ShiftUp is less than 300 staff, Game Science is only 150+, and for one of the richest content games in history, Larian only had 400 people working on BG3.

Yes, if you focus only on the successful cases, you’ll skew the narrative.

Striking Distance Studios had less than 200 employees, had no ‘activist’ staff and made Callisto Protocol within 3 years, with staff worked to the bone with not much leisure time.

It flopped. Lost tens of millions of dollars and cost many their jobs.

 

[mckmas8808]

So you can only figure what "woke" is to the rest of the world when you need to make a list of them, but when I ask you for one game this ability becomes broken?

There is more than 70 layers of nuance to your BS sir.

I didn't make that list. That list was given to us on GAF, by posters here. Only yall claim what games are woke and which aren't woke. I don't make those lists.

Yes, if you focus only on the successful cases, you’ll skew the narrative.

Striking Distance Studios had less than 200 employees, had no ‘activist’ staff and made Callisto Protocol within 3 years, with staff worked to the bone with not much leisure time.

It flopped. Lost tens of millions of dollars and cost many their jobs.

Thank you for this smart post.

 

[Punished Miku]

To act as if COVID didn't screw up alot of things in media is insane. It was a once in a 100 year death killing disease that changed the GLOBE over a 2-3 year period. Lets not get lazy and act as if it was some small flu that affected 1 million people only.

I'm not some COVID denier. I'm just saying it's really a convenient excuse. At most it's just accelerating poor business decisions that were already there. Nintendo also went through COVID but you'd be hard pressed to even notice, which is my point.

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

Yes, if you focus only on the successful cases, you’ll skew the narrative.

Striking Distance Studios had less than 200 employees, had no ‘activist’ staff and made Callisto Protocol within 3 years, with staff worked to the bone with not much leisure time.

It flopped. Lost tens of millions of dollars and cost many their jobs.

It doesn't work both ways.

Woke-centered games flop unless they are supported by legacy IPs.

However, being "non-woke" is just being "normal" or what games have always been, so it's never a safe bet. In other words, you know what leads to failure but not what leads to success.

 

[BlackTron]

I didn't make that list. That list was given to us on GAF, by posters here. Only yall claim what games are woke and which aren't woke. I don't make those lists.

By "make a list" I meant you put it in your post. Again, it makes no sense that you have the capability to figure out what games to call "woke" in your post due to some outside source (or literally any other reason/method from copy/pasting to thinking) but can no longer do it suddenly lol.

Okay, a list told you a game is "woke." Now find me a game someone else said was "woke" with a successful sequel. If it wasn't very hard to put 3 games someone else said was woke, it shouldn't be hard to say 1 lmao. What a cop-out answer.

Edit: another easy cheat-sheet of your available choices would be "sweet baby contracted games".

I think you are being intentionally intellectually stunted in order to dodge the question...

 

[dDoc]

Yep, just what the doctor ordered...

"For the game industry to stabilize and thrive again, it must continue to expand efforts to reach as many players as possible where people play. That means lifting up underserved voices, leaning into representation, and fostering teams of all sizes. Wallick and so many others are looking forward to the turnaround."

 

[ArtHands]

Personally I don't think COVID is a great excuse for it. They're just making more expensive games, slower and slower than ever. Shawn Layden and Iwata were calling this out years before COVID.

Yah. Steam literally break ccu records during covid (and post covid) so its really a bad excuse. Unless someone can explain why PC is immune to that

 

[BlackTron]

Yah. Steam literally break ccu records during covid (and post covid) so its really a bad excuse. Unless someone can explain why PC is immune to that

It's a bad excuse, but it was just the excuse for everything. It was such an excuse, that even if you didn't have a problem, you used it as an excuse. The catch-all free ride is over, ppl...

 

[Ozriel]

Edit: another easy cheat-sheet of your available choices would be "sweet baby contracted games".

God of War: Ragnarok and Spiderman 2 fall in this category.

They aren’t ‘flops’, and I doubt anyone is predicting disaster for a future Spiderman 3.

Truth be told, you’d be hard pressed to find any game with solid gameplay that flopped because people considered it ‘woke’.

FFS, Hogwarts Legacy uses they/them pronouns all the time and everyone loved the game.

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

God of War: Ragnarok and Spiderman 2 fall in this category.

They aren’t ‘flops’, and I doubt anyone is predicting disaster for a future Spiderman 3.

Truth be told, you’d be hard pressed to find any game with solid gameplay that flopped because people considered it ‘woke’.

FFS, Hogwarts Legacy uses they/them pronouns all the time and everyone loved the game.

Any non-30-year-old IP with an established fanbase of millions?

 

[Clear]

The bottom line is not making the audience feel like they are being preached-to or being morally instructed in some way.

They need to accept the reality that not everyone will agree with any overt "message", and nod along appreciatively with the sentiment.

Messaging should be implicit; the natural culmination of the events of the story or the overall "feel" of the experience. Its a flavour, not a brand. By which I mean how a thing tastes is an abstract, open to interpretation. Whereas a brand is an absolute, observable reality.

Even though the ingredients are the same, how we choose to respond is individualistic. When its written on a wrapper, generally that's all we need to know.

When you brand something a certain way, you are pretty much guaranteeing that those who've had a negative impression of similar product in the past simply won't even give it a try. You are effectively warning people off!

What this means in practice is that the more often something comes along branded in a certain way, e.g. "for the modern audience". Over time the number of people who will decide to pass based on past negative experiences accumulates.

 

[BlackTron]

God of War: Ragnarok and Spiderman 2 fall in this category.

My entire point is that they do, but are sequels to established IP without the DEI so you can't truly measure it until after everyone knows (after they buy the game).

They aren’t ‘flops’, and I doubt anyone is predicting disaster for a future Spiderman 3.

Truth be told, you’d be hard pressed to find any game with solid gameplay that flopped because people considered it ‘woke’.

I'm not saying SM3 will flop; I used the word "suffer", that is I expect it to perform worse than we would otherwise expect after 2. If that ends up being the one time it's a tough call to make, because it's Spider Man and we can't be sure how many sales were lost and they merely stay about the same instead of increase, then that is still only one game and being an exception proves the rule...

Last Jedi is trainwreck =>People are no longer willing to march into a theater blind to watch Star Wars => Han Solo bombs, probably would have done fine if TLJ didn't suck => call it Solo's fault and cancel all future spinoff movies.

FFS, Hogwarts Legacy uses they/them pronouns all the time and everyone loved the game.

Bringing up Hogwarts as proof people buy "woke" games kinda says everything right there.

 

[Plague Doctor]

I mean people can argue all they want. This is all going down in real time and it's foolish to ignore it. We are in the beginning stage of a market reset. Shit is just going to get bumpier and whackier from here.

And it all could have been avoided if the big dogs listened to the general audience on a variety of issues and reigned in their spending. If they prioritized sustainability, general audience satisfaction, and shooting for modest success in the black instead of chasing the next new scammy money making scheme while chasing a nonexistent market. Lot of fuck ups happened and it's not just one or two things.

But hogs get greedy and choke on their own slop.

 

[mckmas8808]

By "make a list" I meant you put it in your post. Again, it makes no sense that you have the capability to figure out what games to call "woke" in your post due to some outside source (or literally any other reason/method from copy/pasting to thinking) but can no longer do it suddenly lol.

Okay, a list told you a game is "woke." Now find me a game someone else said was "woke" with a successful sequel. If it wasn't very hard to put 3 games someone else said was woke, it shouldn't be hard to say 1 lmao. What a cop-out answer.

Edit: another easy cheat-sheet of your available choices would be "sweet baby contracted games".

I think you are being intentionally intellectually stunted in order to dodge the question...

Okay, I'll use your "sweet baby contracted games" list.

Other successful ones were Assassin's Creed Valhalla and Alan Wake 2 is borderline successful (money wise). Most of the games on that list seem to be indie games that I've never heard of. But Sweet Baby also worked on Elden Ring too, so what does that tell you?

It's a bad excuse, but it was just the excuse for everything. It was such an excuse, that even if you didn't have a problem, you used it as an excuse. The catch-all free ride is over, ppl...

I think it's lazy to act as if Covid didn't hurt many companies work flow. Maybe it did accelerate the companies that were making bad decisions, but it hurt non the less. I seen it at my job and others that are my friends. It shook things up for at least 6-12 months.

 

[LectureMaster]

Yes, if you focus only on the successful cases, you’ll skew the narrative.

Striking Distance Studios had less than 200 employees, had no ‘activist’ staff and made Callisto Protocol within 3 years, with staff worked to the bone with not much leisure time.

It flopped. Lost tens of millions of dollars and cost many their jobs.

Never said this route guarantees success, but here we go the smartest detective accusing me of "skewing the narrative".

Did I not mention that you needed truly talented people as well? Callisto Protocol game design aside, had horrible technical issues to begin with. Maybe the new studio was simply not experienced enough to start an ambitious high budget project as their debut game? Not to mention the publisher selected an abysmal launching time.

 

[BlackTron]

Okay, I'll use your "sweet baby contracted games" list.

Other successful ones were Assassin's Creed Valhalla and Alan Wake 2 is borderline successful (money wise). Most of the games on that list seem to be indie games that I've never heard of. But Sweet Baby also worked on Elden Ring too, so what does that tell you?



I think it's lazy to act as if Covid didn't hurt many companies work flow. Maybe it did accelerate the companies that were making bad decisions, but it hurt non the less. I seen it at my job and others that are my friends. It shook things up for at least 6-12 months.

I haven't played Elden Ring yet (yeah, fight me) and had no idea SBI was involved. That's a good sign for people wanting to play it lol. I must admit I wouldn't have thought it would get so popular because I can't detect a "woke" bone in its body.

To be clear of what I'm talking about: if it's on the box (Goodbye Volcano High, Wargroove 2, Concord) YES I think it gets a huge meh from people. If they are smart and "hide" it in the game then sales are better, and how annoyed people are afterwards depends on the extent of it. Only dumbass extremists will get triggered by options in the character creator, but everyone will remember how an ugly MJ was more invincible than Spider-Man and how they had to listen to preaching dialog about being gay too often. (Since you struggle with this, that last sentence is the definition of "woke", so you won't need a guide/list next time).

Edit: Clarification, looks like they only contracted SBI for the Elden Ring DLC, not the base game.

Concerning Valhalla, my challenge was to find a sequel to a SBI game that did not suffer from the prior game "surprising" buyers. The prior game in the AC franchise did not contract SBI, so Valhalla is the same as any other direct sequel stripping value from existing IP waiting for the next game to discuss the results. (I haven't played it so I don't know what's in the game or whether I predict this will happen as in SM, but, nonetheless it doesn't fit here).

 

[mckmas8808]

I haven't played Elden Ring yet (yeah, fight me) and had no idea SBI was involved. That's a good sign for people wanting to play it lol. I must admit I wouldn't have thought it would get so popular because I can't detect a "woke" bone in its body.

To be clear of what I'm talking about: if it's on the box (Goodbye Volcano High, Wargroove 2, Concord) YES I think it gets a huge meh from people. If they are smart and "hide" it in the game then sales are better, and how annoyed people are afterwards depends on the extent of it. Only dumbass extremists will get triggered by options in the character creator, but everyone will remember how an ugly MJ was more invincible than Spider-Man and how they had to listen to preaching dialog about being gay too often. (Since you struggle with this, that last sentence is the definition of "woke", so you won't need a guide/list next time).

Edit: Clarification, looks like they only contracted SBI for the Elden Ring DLC, not the base game.

Concerning Valhalla, my challenge was to find a sequel to a SBI game that did not suffer from the prior game "surprising" buyers. The prior game in the AC franchise did not contract SBI, so Valhalla is the same as any other direct sequel stripping value from existing IP waiting for the next game to discuss the results. (I haven't played it so I don't know what's in the game or whether I predict this will happen as in SM, but, nonetheless it doesn't fit here).

- Looks like it didn't affect the games review score or sales rate too much for Spidey 2.
- Yeah I didn't know SBI only did the DLC for Elden Ring. But also goes to show that most people won't care if the game is good and fun.

 

[BlackTron]

- Looks like it didn't affect the games review score or sales rate too much for Spidey 2.

Oh come on man. Stop fucking with me like this. The entire premise of this conversation is:

None of these games were considered "woke" until after you came home and played the game.

Can you point me to a successful original IP that is "woke", that does not depend on the principle of stripping value from an existing IP that laid the groundwork without it?

OR a situation where they did this to existing successful IP, and the sequel after they tricked everyone did not suffer?

I reiterated it in my last post because you seemed to be struggling. Leading to

"welp looks like it didn't affect the sales rate!"

Look if you disagree with my thesis that people buy woke games because they siphon off existing IP and then hurt the brand, that's fine. Just say it. You don't have to pretend to be illiterate or anything.

 

[mckmas8808]

I reiterated it in my last post because you seemed to be struggling. Leading to

"welp looks like it didn't affect the sales rate!"

Look if you disagree with my thesis that people buy woke games because they siphon off existing IP and then hurt the brand, that's fine. Just say it. You don't have to pretend to be illiterate or anything.

I don't think it matters if the game is so-called "WOKE" or not. What matters is if it's good. That's my point! Nobody like Volcano High or Concord. Those games were just bad.

 

[BlackTron]

I don't think it matters if the game is so-called "WOKE" or not. What matters is if it's good. That's my point! Nobody like Volcano High or Concord. Those games were just bad.

Yeah, saying those games are bad is correlation without causation, so it doesn't prove DEI is bad. But, on top of that -you can't find any games like them that are a success (that is, their brand is literally DEI, it's on the box, and it's not "slipped" into an existing game).

I could ask you to show me one that is successful, but then you would say "I can't tell the difference" and all the other cop-out shit you just did above, so I won't try to have a real conversation about it.

 

[mckmas8808]

Yeah, saying those games are bad is correlation without causation, so it doesn't prove DEI is bad. But, on top of that -you can't find any games like them that are a success (that is, their brand is literally DEI, it's on the box, and it's not "slipped" into an existing game).

I could ask you to show me one that is successful, but then you would say "I can't tell the difference" and all the other cop-out shit you just did above, so I won't try to have a real conversation about it.

Oh no, no, no. If you mean the bolded, then they've all crashed out and failed. I hate THOSE games. Those games can go to hell (I'm looking at you Volcano High). Making a game about and around DEI is just dumb and will always fail. That's not fun, nor is it interesting.

 

[BlackTron]

Oh no, no, no. If you mean the bolded, then they've all crashed out and failed. I hate THOSE games. Those games can go to hell (I'm looking at you Volcano High). Making a game about and around DEI is just dumb and will always fail. That's not fun, nor is it interesting.

Yeah I agree I think the reason they fail is because people hate it. I also think people dislike it when added as an ingredient to an existing game. I know this might seem like an extreme position, but there it is. My theory is that it damages the brand even if sales aren't dinged at first (people buy the game to learn that the brand is damaged). Thus is why my challenge was to find franchises that maintained/increased sales momentum after their first game affected, not reiterating SM sales again lol.

Let's face it, even if every single game sequel were to bomb in the future, it still wouldn't be proof. We could just say the games were bad, or people were tired of that game, or whatever. If SM2 had bombed you could just say people already had enough SM1 and it wasn't different enough. There will never be enough but at some point common sense has to kick in.

Edit: BTW man, no hard feelings, agree to disagree. Thanks for discussing your opinion. I think we pretty much covered both sides lol.