The New Hampshire Primary |Feb 9|: Live Free or Die

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mightynine said:
Bernie been involved for 35 years, if you go back to his time as mayor. If you start with his time in Congress, it's 25 years. Not exactly a political spring chicken.
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Its almost like I wasnt the one who claimed either of them to be "fresh". Bernie has a long long history of staying true to his message. Clinton doesnt.
 
Amir0x said:
And that's just one angle. There's also the simple perception angle - people are going to see history being made, hear history being made, and feel history is being made. By definition, such a candidate has the luxury of being perceived as fresh at some basic level when history is being made. This is the angle that actually matters with voters.
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I agree. A self described socialist taking the presidential office would be history being made. A truly revolutionary moment for US politics.
 
Jesus these threads get extremely heated between Clinton and Sanders supporters.

Can't...can't we all just go back to saying how much the Republicans suck?
 
I still can't believe Trump pushed Jeb off the air during Jeb's victory speech. That's just so perfect.
 
Oriel said:
Oh c'mon, talk about having low standards. Has she forgotten perhaps the greatest Democratic president of the 20th century FDR who defeated Fascism and instituted the New Deal that saw the social model introduced to America? Or John F. Kennedy who laidnthe foundation for civil rights in the US?
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I wouldn't say FDR was even that great. He did a poor job getting us out of the depression, due to his bad economic policy, and pretty much any president would have ended up at war with and defeated fascism. Additionally, Japanese internment might be second to only slavery in terms of fucked up stuff that the American government has done.
 
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GavinGT said:
I didn't know Chris Christie was registered to vote in New Hampshire.
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No, it is the fabled pig demon.
 
onadesertedisland said:
I beg to differ. Hillary will make a just fine president. However, I think her presidency will be little more than continuance, and a statement. Why does Hillary want to be president? Is it for legacy? Or is it for something she wants to do for the nation? If there is, what does she think or say she can do for us? So far I haven't heard it.
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Have you not watched her speak.

Its because we can't afford to lose. Every person who has obamacare subsidies for another day is a victory, every women who is able to fight for equal pay is a victory, every women who can decide what to do with her body is a victory, every immigrant who isn't deported is a victory.

She knows that she's best positioned to defend and expand on these things instead of promising something which may be great but has the high and likely potential of ripping all of these gains away.
 
NYCmetsfan said:
I want to hop in on this. Minorities support for clinton represents an experience most clinton supporters have gone through (not trying to say all these groups have it as bad as minorities) they've lost.

Clintons supporters are older and remember a pre-00s era where cultural liberalism wasn't ascendant. They know the insidious of the rights attacks on the disprivleged and powerless and know how much has been gained and lost.

MInorities can't just hope for a better world, the know racism will be here tomorrow and they're likely to continue being disadvantaged for years and decades to come. Preserving hard won victories isn't defeatism, its progress.

Unions at least insitutionally support clinton because they've been beaten back by right to work laws and attacks on workers. They have gone from representing 25% of workers to 10%. They know progessive issues aren't unidirectional they can and have been undone. Preserving hard won victories isn't defeatism its progress.

Womens groups support hillary because they've seen GOP dismissive at the the everlasting presence of sexism and attacks that have crippled a women's right to her body in the south and midwest. They know abortion and womens issues isn't some oneway street. Preserving hard won victories isn't defeatism its progress.

Young voters by and large don't realize this because they've won most fights they've been in and their peers share their values (this is amplified by cultural segregation both online and off). They've won gay marriage, a black president and the acceptance of identity politics They had the bush years but by and large most of sanders supporters were not that adversely effected by them. They've not lost something they've won.

This is amplified by white voters and white young voters. Who even when they lose don't really lose. Who doubts that by and large most of the white students in Iowa's and NH's universities are going to be relatively fine? They might have large loans and living with their parents but they have their parents to support them in both cases. It might be a case of arrested development but its not existential. Meanwhile black and other minorities face existential problems daily. From police brutality to economic disparities these problems are very life and death.

This doesn't summarize the entire race and I don't mean to lambast bernie supporters as idiots or people oblivious to other things but their desire to brush aside realism complains reflects by and large the fact they can afford to, the clinton coalition can't
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holy shit this post is amazing. very well said.
 
Downhome said:
I just don't get how people can take Hillary Clinton seriously with almost anything she says. Bernie I can believe, but her? I don't believe almost anything that comes out of her mouth.
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Slacker said:
Serious question, why do you say that?
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Downhome said:
It's not like I'm alone in that and I'm not even a Democrat.

From what I know and hear of Bernie, I believe he is sincere in what he says and he truly does believe it all. For Hillary, I believe that instead of saying what she believes she says anything that will get people to support her. I don't even agree with a lot of what Sanders says, but at least I believe that I can trust him. There are tons of people, republican and democrat, that feels the same way.
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So your distrust of Clinton is based on feelings and nothing else? Not trying to call you out - I just find it interesting. You're right that many people feel the same way, and I think that most if asked for details would answer just as vaguely. I guess credit goes to the Republicans here. Repeat the false narrative often enough and people will start to believe it.
 
neurosisxeno said:
And they now have the lowest approval rating in recorded history, and a lot of people expect pretty massive gains for the Dems in 2016.
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Huh?

There's 0 chance they're losing the House and the Senate will likely flip to the Dems and then back to the Republicans based on the states voting in those years.

Hillary is going to have as limited an ability to pass new legislation as Bernie does.
 
NYCmetsfan said:
I want to hop in on this. Minorities support for clinton represents an experience most clinton supporters have gone through (not trying to say all these groups have it as bad as minorities) they've lost.

Clintons supporters are older and remember a pre-00s era where cultural liberalism wasn't ascendant. They know the insidious of the rights attacks on the disprivleged and powerless and know how much has been gained and lost.

MInorities can't just hope for a better world, the know racism will be here tomorrow and they're likely to continue being disadvantaged for years and decades to come. Preserving hard won victories isn't defeatism, its progress.

Unions at least insitutionally support clinton because they've been beaten back by right to work laws and attacks on workers. They have gone from representing 25% of workers to 10%. They know progessive issues aren't unidirectional they can and have been undone. Preserving hard won victories isn't defeatism its progress.

Womens groups support hillary because they've seen GOP dismissive at the the everlasting presence of sexism and attacks that have crippled a women's right to her body in the south and midwest. They know abortion and womens issues isn't some oneway street. Preserving hard won victories isn't defeatism its progress.

Young voters by and large don't realize this because they've won most fights they've been in and their peers share their values (this is amplified by cultural segregation both online and off). They've won gay marriage, a black president and the acceptance of identity politics They had the bush years but by and large most of sanders supporters were not that adversely effected by them. They've not lost something they've won.

This is amplified by white voters and white young voters. Who even when they lose don't really lose. Who doubts that by and large most of the white students in Iowa's and NH's universities are going to be relatively fine? They might have large loans and living with their parents but they have their parents to support them in both cases. It might be a case of arrested development but its not existential. Meanwhile black and other minorities face existential problems daily. From police brutality to economic disparities these problems are very life and death.

This doesn't summarize the entire race and I don't mean to lambast bernie supporters as idiots or people oblivious to other things but their desire to brush aside realism complains reflects by and large the fact they can afford to, the clinton coalition can't
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Beautiful post. This and the one you responded to.
 
Gutek said:
I agree. A self described socialist taking the presidential office would be history being made. A truly revolutionary moment for US politics.
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you are not seriously comparing the metrics there, or even the situation....right? Americans don't even like socialists, for one. Many would view that as negative history from the jump. For another, you aren't born a socialist. If this is the strength of arguments Bernie has for his campaign to nowhere, it's not really a surprise things are the way they are.
 
Manmademan said:
The funny thing is, Bill Clinton was a president that actually BOTHERED to reach out to the Black community and nominate prominent blacks into government after 12 years of being demonized as welfare queens and criminals by the Reagan/Bush administration. Hell, I'm pretty sure they blamed AIDS on us too. I don't know how old you are, but living through that shit was AWFUL.
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And yet Bill dismantled guaranteed welfare that stood for 60 years. Not even Reagan touched that, and Hillary stumped for it as well.

Yeah, the 90s crack epidemic and subsequent crime explosion led to some aggressive expansion of state and federal prisons, but you were looking at an era where violent crime was double to triple the rate of current day. That was going to happen no matter who the president was, and there were more than a few black people that were in favor of it. No one enjoyed crack fueled shootouts in DC, black or not.
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The 90's crime rate was already on a downward trend compared to the highs of the 80's. The Violent Crime is indefensible, and even Bill apologized for it.

Woops, my bad for mass incarceration of minorities.

Keep in mind as well that Clinton presided over a period of relative peace, wealth and prosperity at all economic levels, after a bush era recession and prior to yet ANOTHER bush recession and 8 years of nigh endless war.

So no, Black voters having fond memories of the clinton presidential years is not irrational, nor does it revolve around Arsenio Hall OR Toni Morrison- and if you had read her column in which she refers to Clinton it was not meant as as flattery or an endorsement.
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Depends on who you ask like always.

My brother-in-law hates the Clintons with a passion. His family was affected by the Welfare Reform Bill and the Violent Crime bill.
 
Amir0x said:
you are not seriously comparing the metrics there, or even the situation....right? Americans don't even like socialists, for one. Many would view that as negative history from the jump. For another, you aren't born a socialist. If this is the strength of arguments Bernie has for his campaign to nowhere, it's not really a surprise things are the way they are.
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That isn't true. 1930's America brought in a socialist.
 
Merc_ said:
Is Bernie the only one allowed to talk about this stuff or something?
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So far it's been like:

Hillary: "Well excuse me Bernie, but I've been doing this longer than you I have more experience. And I never change my values."

Only after he brings something up.

--

EDIT: LOL beat Japan? haha
 
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