The New Hampshire Primary |Feb 9|: Live Free or Die

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Blader said:
Liberal and young voters sit out the midterms. A lot of Bernie's base wouldn't show up in 2018. So what you're saying is, you'd put up with two years of Bernie getting nothing done for another two years where he continues getting blocked.
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to me, i'd much rather have him get in just for the sake of showing people that it was possible. all day and night leading up to where we are was just legions of people saying how he's completely unelectable. it's certainly doesn't seem like he's unelectable, and that mentality is probably one of the biggest hurdles he has get past.

about him 'not getting anything done', we don't know that for sure, but we already know how much less obama was able to accomplish because of it. Bernies entire message, from what I understand, isn't to simply elect him president. It's part of a much larger movement, collective conscious awakening of people to understand the power they have with electing people they believe in, and rebuilding our governments officials from the ground up. We need to vote in congress that care about the people.

simply saying that it will be deadlocked if bernie wins still doesn't make interested in the least to vote for hilary or trump or whomever. hilary is one of the most untrustworthy candidates i've ever seen and if she was elected I'm not sure it would be a net gain in any way, outside of continuing the current status quo of how our government is run. the things we need most BY FAR to fix our country is getting money out of politics. enact fucking term limits for congress officials, ban insider trading, ban lobbying, and if we're going to pretend we are a capitalist society then we also need to allow it to actually happen instead of rich conglomerates buying out and shutting down competition before it's a threat. I don't believe hilary has any intention nor motivation to give a fuck about any of us.


but god damn if this election hasnt been entertaining so far. in a really sad, self deprecating way.
 
eBay Huckster said:
Are you implying that the Democratic Party has moved to the right since 2000-2006? Because so far, that's their low point.
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Certain areas no, certain areas yes. Certainly overwhelmingly on social issues the party has definitely moved left, but that has corresponded mainly with the country in general (and we can see how the conservatives have had enormous difficulty coping with that).
 
Zyae said:
Shes been involved in politics for almost 25 years... There is nothing fresh about her. Being a female means nothing nor should it mean anything.
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Bernie been involved for 35 years, if you go back to his time as mayor. If you start with his time in Congress, it's 25 years. Not exactly a political spring chicken.

Condom said:
Seems like this speech is for those that don't know him yet.
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Heard that after Iowa. He has one stump speech. He repeats it all the time.
 
NYCmetsfan said:
I want to hop in on this. Minorities support for clinton represents an experience most clinton supporters have gone through (not trying to say all these groups have it as bad as minorities) they've lost.

Clintons supporters are older and remember a pre-00s era where cultural liberalism wasn't ascendant. They know the insidious of the rights attacks on the disprivleged and powerless and know how much has been gained and lost.

MInorities can't just hope for a better world, the know racism will be here tomorrow and they're likely to continue being disadvantaged for years and decades to come. Preserving hard won victories isn't defeatism, its progress.

Unions at least insitutionally support clinton because they've been beaten back by right to work laws and attacks on workers. They have gone from representing 25% of workers to 10%. They know progessive issues aren't unidirectional they can and have been undone. Preserving hard won victories isn't defeatism its progress.

Womens groups support hillary because they've seen GOP dismissive at the the everlasting presence of sexism and attacks that have crippled a women's right to her body in the south and midwest. They know abortion and womens issues isn't some oneway street. Preserving hard won victories isn't defeatism its progress.

Young voters by and large don't realize this because they've won most fights they've been in and their peers share their values (this is amplified by cultural segregation both online and off). They've won gay marriage, a black president and the acceptance of identity politics They had the bush years but by and large most of sanders supporters were not that adversely effected by them. They've not lost something they've won.

This is amplified by white voters and white young voters. Who even when they lose don't really lose. Who doubts that by and large most of the white students in Iowa's and NH's universities are going to be relatively fine? They might have large loans and living with their parents but they have their parents to support them in both cases. It might be a case of arrested development but its not existential. Meanwhile black and other minorities face existential problems daily. From police brutality to economic disparities these problems are very life and death.

This doesn't summarize the entire race and I don't mean to lambast bernie supporters as idiots or people oblivious to other things but their desire to brush aside realism complains reflects by and large the fact they can afford to, the clinton coalition can't
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excellent post. But I would also mention that preferring clinton to sanders doesn't even have to go back to the experiences of 1992-2000, all you need to do is go back to 2008.

Obama himself rode into office on the back of what is likely to be the most massive democratic wave election we're going to see in our lifetimes. Despite this, passing ANYTHING through congress was a struggle even with moderate democrats! The ACA made it through by the skin of it's teeth before the senate was lost due to special elections and untimely death, and the rest of Obama's tenure has been marked with obstruction obstruction obstruction no matter how reasonable the policy or dire the situation.

Republicans do not care and have been vocal about allowing the government to shut down and go down in ruin rather than letting obama have a talking point.

If you've been paying attention over the past 8 years, all of this is obvious. You don't even need to go back to Clinton. Sanders' approach simply does not work.
 
BoboBrazil said:
Lol, but seriously you are right that negotiation is key. Bernie doesn't negotiate. Hilary is a master negotiator.
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Oh yeah, sure, like the time she helped to negotiate single-payer right off the negotiating table in '93. We didn't even get the equivalent of the ACA that the GOP was pushing as an alternative.
 
Prodigal Son said:
Lol Carson at 2%. Give up, dude.
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ABC commented on him looking like a bitch for not nailing Cruz at the debate costing him. I tend to agree this has hurt him, but he probably wasn't looking at a top 3 place here regardless.
 
antonz said:
Seems to me you should prefer the legislative process for getting things done. Executive Action was never intended to be used as you are suggesting. On top of that Executive action simply takes a new President to make disappear.
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Maybe so, but absent majorities in either chamber of Congress, it's literally the only path. We already know what GOP majorities do in response to widespread public outcry and protest against them, and it ain't something that's very optimistic for Bernie's platform.
 
Amir0x said:
Of course it means something, and whether it should or not is largely besides the point. This is like a white person saying they're "color blind" and that they never look at someone's skin color when making choices. Yes, you're white - you have the luxury to pretend to be colorblind. By virtue of being born a minority, you don't have that luxury and you must be aware of color if you are to navigate the realities of the world. Similarly, being a woman means certain innate boundaries society has for years tried to place up for them such that ignoring that this gender difference even exists is not frequently a luxury women can have. They get less pay and get hired for jobs less and have to deal with all sorts of sexism. And that such a perspective is by definition unique from the male perspective in some fundamental and profound ways.

And that's just one angle. There's also the simple perception angle - people are going to see history being made, hear history being made, and feel history is being made. By definition, such a candidate has the luxury of being perceived as fresh at some basic level when history is being made. This is the angle that actually matters with voters, because even if something isn't really true - that, say, Bernie is worse for minorities than Hillary - will still show up at the polls as an issue if voters perceive him to be worse.
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Builds on my point, many (not all) can afford a loss and potential right wing wins.

See the support for accelarationism from many of his supporters with its tacit admission they'll be alright
 
Foffy said:
It's one thing to say "I like his ideas, but this ain't the climate" or "I want practicality in an age of Regressiveism."

But calling a more humanistic society a dream can't really be anything else than settling for mediocrity, really.
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In your opinion. But you only think that because you want AMERICA TO DIE
 
Nils said:
tzC5hcu.jpg
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Oh c'mon, talk about having low standards. Has she forgotten perhaps the greatest Democratic president of the 20th century FDR who defeated Fascism and instituted the New Deal that saw the social model introduced to America? Or John F. Kennedy who laid the foundation for civil rights in the US? Not to mention the candidates who didn't become President like Gore and Bobby Kennedy to name a few.
 
Poker Face said:
It's possible to have Bernie's plans. No it's not easy, but it's his ideas are based off of other countries. The only thing stopping him is the congress/senate. Even if he compromises and only some of the ideas end up working I'd be fine with it.

Bernie needs to end this speech like 5 minutes ago, jfc
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The Senate is Congress. And secondly, you say "only" as if this isn't an absolutely pivotal and significant point of contention. You do not seem to appreciate how insurmountable a GOP Congress would be for any of Bernie's plans coming to fruition. It's a frustratingly common quality here.
 
neurosisxeno said:
I'm saying I hope were he elected that he could get those voters to actually show up in 2018. Yes, Obama struggled in 2010 keeping the momentum going, but it probably didn't help that outside of 2008 and 2012, most of the Democrats running pretended they didn't even know who he was, and rather than campaigning on their strengths, ran as Not-Obama Democrats. I think if Sanders got blocked for the first 2 years, we'd have had 10 years where Republicans in Congress refused to pass legislation that was meaningful, and people would start to get motivated to replace them.

It's optimistic, I know, but I choose to believe people aren't stupid enough to just keep letting these things happen. Don't get me wrong, I will vote for Hillary over anyone in the Republican field, but in the Primary I'm voting for Bernie, and I hope he gets the nomination.
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The Republicans shut down the government for two weeks and nearly defaulted the national debt, and were rewarded total control of Congress less than a year later.

People are that stupid.
 
Zyae said:
Shes been involved in politics for almost 25 years... There is nothing fresh about her. Being a female means nothing nor should it mean anything.
Click to expand...

Of course it means something, and whether it should or not is largely besides the point. This is like a white person saying they're "color blind" and that they never look at someone's skin color when making choices. Yes, you're white - you have the luxury to pretend to be colorblind. By virtue of being born a minority, you don't have that luxury and you must be aware of color if you are to navigate the realities of the world. Similarly, being a woman means certain innate boundaries society has for years tried to place up for them such that ignoring that this gender difference even exists is not frequently a luxury women can have. They get less pay and get hired for jobs less and have to deal with all sorts of sexism. And that such a perspective is by definition unique from the male perspective in some fundamental and profound ways.

And that's just one angle. There's also the simple perception angle - people are going to see history being made, hear history being made, and feel history is being made. By definition, such a candidate has the luxury of being perceived as fresh at some basic level when history is being made. This is the angle that actually matters with voters, because even if something isn't really true - that, say, Bernie is worse for minorities than Hillary - it will still show up at the polls as an issue if voters perceive him to be worse.
 
Honestly Hillary and Bernie's speeches were pretty damn similar aside from a couple of general differences.
 
Lindsey Graham at Jeb event:

"Bush is back because of New Hampshire"

Congrats on that 11%
 
NYCmetsfan said:
Because the president does other things?

Because politics is more than simple negotiations based on abstract principles, and Hillary has show much better adeptness at that/?
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I beg to differ. Hillary will make a just fine president. However, I think her presidency will be little more than continuance, and a statement. Why does Hillary want to be president? Is it for legacy? Or is it for something she wants to do for the nation? If there is, what does she think or say she can do for us? So far I haven't heard it.
 
izunadono said:
Man... Finally catching up and watching the Hillary Concession Speech. Is anyone else annoyed by her essentially taking Bernie's talking points?
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I noticed she took Trump's talking points on taking our crappy trade deals and making them better.

Or maybe they both thought about this separately, meaning they're closer politically than we thought!
 
ApharmdX said:
I'm glad that you're doing well in Atlanta, but nationally black American wealth decline has outpaced wealth decline among white Americans. And, here in Maryland, the economy hasn't fully recovered from the great recession.

It's more complicated than "Obama/center-left politics haven't benefited black America" and I accept that, but some of the blame is on those politics IMO.



Nah but we can discuss it.

Recently I have been able to understand a bit better Hillary's appeal to minorities- she's pragmatic and she's the "safe bet" in the general election. We'd have the most to lose under a GOP president, so gambling on Bernie seems risky. I just don't agree with that logic.
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Don't forget lowered school loans and more affordable health-care. Also for pocs in general, the dream act, and gerrymandering is now by voters.
 
Blader said:
The Republicans shut down the government for two weeks and nearly defaulted the national debt, and were rewarded total control of Congress less than a year later.

People are that stupid.
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And they now have the lowest approval rating in recorded history, and a lot of people expect pretty massive gains for the Dems in 2016.
 
onadesertedisland said:
I beg to differ. Hillary will make a just fine president. However, I think her presidency will be little more than continuance, and a statement. Why does Hillary want to be president? Is it for legacy? Or is it for something she wants to do for the nation? If there is, what does she think or say she can do for us? So far I haven't heard it.
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You haven't been listening then.
 
LOL

Trump timed it exactly with Jeb's speech.

Trump will do anything to beat down on Jeb.
 
I don't get how clinton will get more stuff passed than bernie (unless you think bernie will never compromise ever and veto everything). I get he wont get everything he wants but having the national conversation is super important. Incremental change is great but a lot of people without healthcare are getting screwed by the status quo.
 
The Librarian said:
wasn't gonna pass dude
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Kind of a flip response to the fact that Hillary blew up the negotiations enough that, as I said, we didn't even get the '90s-GOP equivalent version of the ACA that they and their Heritage Foundation think tank were pushing as an alternative. But yeah, sure, whatever, wasn't gonna pass dude.

I mean, I think Hillary will be a solid president domestically (her hawkishness in foreign policy is another story) and far better than any candidate the GOP can possibly put forward, but this "master negotiator" comment that I was responding to isn't backed by facts.
 
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