She'd take it. At Bernie's age there's a significantly greater than 0 chance she could end up as president.
The New Hampshire Primary |Feb 9|: Live Free or Die
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She'd take it. At Bernie's age there's a significantly greater than 0 chance she could end up as president.
OuterLimits
Member
Hmm, why do the Dems have so many super delegates? Doesn't that make the voting less important?
If you don't live in America and support Bernie you can volunteer for his campaign by call banking. We'd all appreciate it over here.
He's looked thin and frail for a while now. There's clearly something wrong.
Have they started the 10 day countdown to Nevada and SC? I turned that shit off at hour three.
Agreed, Hillary is adapting, and she's a fighter. But, more important than that, while she may not be winning over the young progressive crowd, she has a real opportunity (a bigger opportunity to Bernie, imo) to tap into that Obama coalition, and all the people who supported Obama, but have been paying attention the last 7 years and would like to see his accomplishments defended.
OuterLimits
Member
I find it hard to believe even a moderate Republican would be in love with his more socialist leanings. He does attract independents I agree. However, independents can fall anywhere on the spectrum between far left and right. I'm sure he is getting the very left wing independents.
I live in a mostly republican area and there are certainly people around here who are afraid of the S word, but a decent chunk that get past that and think his ideas are good ones. It's not inconceivable.
The only thing that I think can pull over moderate Republicans (I would know...I am one) is the anti-establishment message. I could never even consider him due to his economic ideas. I think both him and Trump are off their rockers for different reasons, so I'd probably sit out in that case. I imagine many moderates would as well.
brainchild
Banned
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/02/09/us/elections/new-hampshire-democrat-poll.html?_r=0
Bernie literally did a clean sweep of the demographics for the voters on the Democratic side. Very unexpected.
Black Republican
Member
Nevada is before SC on the dem side, dont know why the media is skipping Nevada
and where are the polls ??
and where are the polls ??
Kind of funny that Hillary did well with people earning over 200k.
cheezcake
Member
TBH I'm surprised there's only a 7 point difference in favour of clinton for that demo. Though I suppose the vast majority of people that wealthy in the US aren't a registered democrat?
anonymous_abc
Member
And I'm sure there are genuinely rich people who agree they should and could be paying more into the system that got them where they are now.
cheezcake
Member
Absolutely there are and I hope if I become that successful I feel the same, but the cynic in me feels like they're gonna be a significant minority.
KarneeKarnay
Member
Anyone under the impression that Hillary's "First Female President" stand is kinda backfiring.
I don't remember a lot about the Obama campaign, so I could be wrong, but what I remember was a lot of other people saying that. Not Obama. Obama was about change, it was a more subtle implication that he was going to be the first black president.
Hillary is really banking on the possibility on being the first female president. She even got Bill to vouch for her. (That is perhaps not the smartest move.). Shouldn't a president campaigning on what they want to achieve in office, not on their genetics?
I still think she'll get a ton of supporters just because of this, but I think if she or her campaign keep hammering this in, she might actually end up hurting her chances.
I don't know. British guy perspective could be all fucked up. Tea bags, crumpets, Lizzie and all that.
I don't remember a lot about the Obama campaign, so I could be wrong, but what I remember was a lot of other people saying that. Not Obama. Obama was about change, it was a more subtle implication that he was going to be the first black president.
Hillary is really banking on the possibility on being the first female president. She even got Bill to vouch for her. (That is perhaps not the smartest move.). Shouldn't a president campaigning on what they want to achieve in office, not on their genetics?
I still think she'll get a ton of supporters just because of this, but I think if she or her campaign keep hammering this in, she might actually end up hurting her chances.
I don't know. British guy perspective could be all fucked up. Tea bags, crumpets, Lizzie and all that.
Hey this is pretty much exactly how I feel.
We had as close to a revolution as we were going to get with Obama, Bernie isn't going to come close to flipping the house and the senate to the point he can pass any of his agenda... He must know this, right??
When you work your butt off to get where you are it's a hard sell to ask for more, or be called greedy or selfish to want to keep more of your hard earned money.
Not everybody who make an upper middle class or upper class income is some lazy bum who got a trust fund and is just building wealth off capital gains on the backs of the lower/middle class without working a day in their lives.
RubberJohnny
Banned
What is this "accomplishments defended" stuff?
Why is it such blasphemy to say that rather than follow through with a faulty system for eight more years we'd rather get started on making the shift towards single payer which should be the ideal?
What are we "defending" by not doing that? His legacy? Bernie and voters wanting to move forward is building on the ACA, it's not an attack on any level whatsoever and it's disgusting how Clinton keeps trying to paint it that way.
I don't see how Hilary could pull in the "Obama coalition", especially when it was harder for Obama to rile them up in 2012, in fact I think they'd be more likely to be enthused by Sanders who comes of as someone really "about that life".
Obama didn't try to push the necessity of voting/defending voter rights as much as Bernie is, and I believe Bernie will continue putting a lot of focus on this and that his supporters ill as well if he's elected.
Yuck.
The country is weaker overall and huge swaths of the population are poorer because corporations are too self centered. We don't need someone like Hillary to keep the status quo. We need someone like Bernie who can negotiate on our behalf better conditions, benefits and payrates for most of us in the labor market.
The only thing that is worth quibbling over is his ideas about supporting protectionism over free trade, not his ideas about bringing accountability and punishment to bankers and corporate leaders.
That's going to have to be something she needs to work on. She's been doing nothing really to attract youth votes and a lot of progressive voters. A lot of the arguments here are thinly covered threats of Clinton supporters saying when Bernie loses, you still better come out at vote for Clinton. Their argument and Clinton's is basically fear of what the Republicans will do if they took charge. That's not a strong argument to generate excitement and get people to want to vote for you, but rather feel like they are forced too through fear. Its a piss poor way to motivate people and it's without a doubt the Achilles heel of the Clinton campaign. The populous is just so mellow towards her.
Funny when the best thing to happen to her was Trump deciding to run and basically making(Or showing) how vile the Republican Party has turned out to be.
cheezcake
Member
There's no way Bernie doesn't endorse Hillary if he loses the nom, which'll help a fair amount. I think it's also important to keep in mind how relatively well Bernie is doing, Bernie Bros exist but they're absolutely a minority in the 30+% of US voters who selected/will select him.
Let's not forget the Hillary 08 supporters who refused to vote for Obama after he got the nom, nothing more than a vocal minority. And let's face it you have to have a huge degree of cognitive dissonance going on to believe that Trump is closer to Bernie than Clinton.
So what makes you think Hillary will be any better? I'm sure the Republicans in DC don't hate her as much as their base but what progressive or liberal policies do you think she could achieve when they will also push back against her?
The only policies she has a high chance of pushing forward are those that align with the Republican party already such as military intervention in other countries and tightening security.
That also includes enacting policies that make the income gap even wider in this country and put us even more at the mercy of corporate interests.
You and a lot of other Hillary supporters really didn't think this simplistic argument through.
Bernie isn't going to lose Trump in the general. Maybe he'll lose to anyone else but Trump is a definite win. Stop being so scared and begging for a Democratic candidate who will make us worse off over a candidate who will be a lame duck. At least the lame duck isn't hurting us and if he actually isn't as incapable as you think he would be then he'll nudge this country in a more positive direction.
Clinton may as well write off young people altogether. If Bernie wins, she is forgotten in a heartbeat as the media turn to the unbelievably appetizing angle of Sanders v Trump. If she wins, the youth who stood up to be counted for Bernie become even more disillusioned in the political system and go back to not caring at all. I do not believe they will vote for Trump to spite Hillary. They just won't vote at all, and on the cycle goes until the establishment are all dead from old age.
Can I just say off the top, I cannot believe we live in a world where Donald Trump could be one general election away from being President of the United fucking States. We're on a knifes edge here people. This could be the most important election in a generation. The entire world could literally go either one way or the other here. If Bernie wins the nomination, the Democrats have to learn that real quick and utilize it to their advantage.
Republicans want a republican president. They might not want Trump or Cruz, but they want them more than Clinton or Sanders.
brainchild
Banned
So am I wrong in thinking that if these results continue all the way through, both parties will have selected an unelectable candidate?
It would certainly make for an interesting general election. If both candidates are unelectable, what happens? Do we just choose to have no president instead?
Azure Dream
Member
Yes, this is something I've been thinking. (But accusations of sexism seem to fly freely in PoliGAF, so it didn't seem like the place to bring it up.) I don't recall Obama bringing up that he could be the first black president. He may have alluded to it indirectly, maybe said it once or twice, but for the most part he let other people point it out for him. I don't remember him on the debate stage saying, "Hey, I'm black! A black President, wouldn't that be neat? Wouldn't that send a message?" It was understood, everyone focused on him said it, he didn't need to trot it out quite so directly.
Angry Fork
Member
What you described the tea party doing is exactly what Bernie wants to attempt.
I wonder what will motivate dems and left wing/liberal people to vote in midterms. A centrist pro-wall street warhawk like Hillary, or an actual liberal like Bernie?
Bernie excites people and gives them hope, that's the only way people will go out in midterm elections. If Hillary wins expect all of the recent turnout from working class and young people to dissipate. I would personally rather not vote than vote for Hillary and a lot of people around my age (in 20s) feel the same.
It would certainly make for an interesting general election. If both candidates are unelectable, what happens? Do we just choose to have no president instead?
No, one of the unelectable candidates wins, because both sides have enough voters who would vote for a turd on a plate as long as it represented the right party.
In short, this is how you end up with President Trump.
anonymous_abc
Member
It would certainly make for an interesting general election. If both candidates are unelectable, what happens? Do we just choose to have no president instead?
Obama will just have to stay on.
There isn't as much cognitive dissonance as you believe.
Trump's main appeal is to the poorest of the Republican's who see him as an out from the decline in wealth and status they've observed.
One of Sander's primary platform is to close the income gap.
Trump has always brandished himself as a man who can't be brought and it's clear that while he actually is friend's with wealthy people Trump is a narcissist that only looks out for #1 and to a lesser extent his kids. He'll do what he can to make both the rich and poor happy because it boosts his ego.
Quite a few rich folks are more openly scared of Sander's. They don't fear Hillary and they don't even openly hate her like Trump as evidenced by a few public statements already to support Hillary if Trump wins the nom.
For worse or a lot worse Trump is promoting a political rebellion if successful will nudge America slightly closer to fascism.
Right now Bernie isn't really doing anything right to get his revolution going but he does openly advocate for an upheaval in the way politics is done.
Trump being a racist shitbag will appeal to democratic racist shitbags who also happen to be rebellious instead of being principled like Blue Dogs.
So this is exactly what Obama is doing. The Republican tinfoilists were right all along.
brainchild
Banned
I think the argument against Sanders at this point is that he's yet to demonstrate that he can effectively do this, considering the overall turnout hasn't been earth shattering or anything. However, I feel that if he becomes the nominee and has the full support of the Democratic party, it will be easier for him to rally for the party as a whole, which isn't really possible for him to do with the party being so divided between him and Hillary.
Angry Fork
Member
I feel he's shown he can by tying Iowa and the insane numbers he gets from young/working class people (both men and women), but I agree that if he became nominee the dem party support would allow all of it to be much easier.
That's partly why the belief that Hillary *needs* to win is so silly. Not only does she do worse than Bernie on all the polls against GOP candidates (and less likely to attract independents/moderates) but it's not as if Bernie would be running as some kind of independent if he got the nomination. He'd be running as a democrat, which includes most of the benefits Hillary would get.
brainchild
Banned
I'm pretty sure that Hillary's supporters aren't just going to magically disappear if Bernie gets the nomination. Hillary's and Bernie's positions are similar enough that anyone who previously supported Hillary would switch over to Bernie, even if they felt that he stood no chance against the GOP.
Remember, Bernie's electability is only a determining factor for some democrats in the primaries. In the general election, it wouldn't matter how unelectable he was, they're stuck with him as the representative of the party at that point so they might as well vote for him.
LOL, fair enough.
neurosisxeno
Member
So am I wrong in thinking that if these results continue all the way through, both parties will have selected an unelectable candidate?
A wild Bloomberg appears!
brainchild
Banned
LMAO
Fox Mulder
Member
She can't run on any accomplishments and is a charisma black hole compared to Obama. She's banking on being a woman and a democrat that can walk to the presidency.
It's all related - The actions of these supporters are indicative of their political leanings and priorities which is indicative of the message that caused them to coalesce which in turn is indicative of the type of candidate from which that message spawned. You keep trying to separate them but I see them all as connected.
Let's be honest - You go to a store and the employees/volunteers there treat you like shit. You may not think the store owner is a terrible person but what does it say about them that they attracted those sorts of people to them? Would you be rushing to do business there?
I like Bernie as a person and I appreciate his consistency as a candidate but I have no idea how he intends to implement and pass the proposals that make up the core of his campaign, I have issues with his messaging, I have issues with some of his actual proposals, I've not seen him be supportive of the Democratic party as a whole or down-ballet candidates, I'm concerned how the campaign will handle scrutiny once under the Republication war machine, etc. Some number of his supporters being consistently intolerable (which relates back to messaging) is just the tip of the iceburg but boy does it not help.
I think its fair to be critical of Obama but I don't think calling him not a progressive (which is what I feel you're saying) is fair. I think under the climate he was under he did a great job and I don't think this climate is supportive of going even further left by a huge margin, not when the GOP has Congress and especially when the result of reaching high and coming up short is the entire government under GOP.
Yeah I'm a bit concerned seeing record turnout on the GOP side but not the Dem side. I'm wondering if this is a side effect of so many Republican Debates? All the ones I've seen have been shitshows but repeat something often enough and people might start to find it appealing? Lots of noise has been made on the other side.
Obama couldn't get single payer through even with a Democratic congress. He expended a TON of political capital to get the ACA through. HOW does Bernie do that with a more hostile Congress? What has he done to help down ballot races? How does this help Democrats in more risky seats?
She's certainly less charismatic than Obama but *rolls eyes* to rest of this post.
RubberJohnny
Banned
This thread right now:
soundscream
Member
So am I wrong in thinking that if these results continue all the way through, both parties will have selected an unelectable candidate?
Just according to keikaku
You Know Nothing
Member
This pic is so great
I am Hillary.
Yeah, but I'm talking about this specific thing...Hillary being in the lead on delegates after a tie and a defeat. How is that not just a scandal? Shouldn't a majority of the Democrats that voted in these two states be really pissed?
Angry Fork
Member
This thread right now:
lol, yes.
No but changing those kinds of things are considered radical, and if even "liberals" won't support someone like Sanders, who is basically center-left, then there's no hope of changing them.
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