Microsoft unifying PC/XB1 platforms, Phil implies Xbox moving to incremental upgrades
- Thread starter dancrane212
- Start date
Crayon
Member
Denial. Anger. Bargaining. Depression. Acceptance. Xbox died today.
MistBreeze
Member
I think starting next gen they should do 3 models from the get go:
- a model capable of 4k 60 fps
- a model of 1080 60 fps
- a premium 5k 30 fps
And stick to it untill standards change
- a model capable of 4k 60 fps
- a model of 1080 60 fps
- a premium 5k 30 fps
And stick to it untill standards change
Night Angel
Member
Once again you've ignored most of my post, and in the process you've taken my words and twisted them far beyond their obvious intent and into absurdity. I guess I'll do something similar to you.I don't know about you but I certainly bought an Xbox One because it offered better performance than Xbox 360, even though it was selling at a high price. What else did it offer really? I got banned once for my rant after trying Kinect for the first time so I certainly didn't buy XB1 for that
When choosing between like consoles OF THE SAME GENERATION (I can't believe I have to clarify this, are you kidding me?), the power differential is not the deciding factor. Why you would think that I was claiming people don't upgrade their old consoles for the increased performance is completely beyond me.
Horribly strained DBZ anology
Android 17 (360) is fighting Piccolo (PS3) with Android 18 (XB1) looking on.
At first no one is sure and Piccolo sees he could win. Turns out Android 17 was just jobbing it; starts wiping the floor with Piccolo.
Much later Cell shows up (w10 store) absorbs first Android 17 then Android 18.
Gohan (PS4) has to defeat Cell or all is lost.
In about 17 episodes, someone might throw a punch.
One punch man next?
If the next Xbox is essentially a feature limited PC that can only run games released for that console rather than any PC game then I don't see the point in buying one unless MS subsidises it so that you can get a level of performance that you can't in a PC that price. This seems fair considering it is a feature limited PC.
Another thing to keep in mind that the closed box advantage will be gone once this is done since developers will have to code for a wide array of devices...just like in PC, so the need to have relatovely superior hardware for that price point becomes even more important because again...why would anyone won't just buy a PC if it costs the same and isn't feature limited.
Another thing to keep in mind that the closed box advantage will be gone once this is done since developers will have to code for a wide array of devices...just like in PC, so the need to have relatovely superior hardware for that price point becomes even more important because again...why would anyone won't just buy a PC if it costs the same and isn't feature limited.
I completely agree with both of you. IMO this is the beginning of the end for Xbox hardware.
It's a soft sell and preparation for the exit from the console business.
Yeah... No? It doesn't work like that.
Software performance doesn't scale linearly with hardware performance.
Say, there is a game being 1080p 30fps on the lower end model, what happen exactly if it turns out being 1080p 45fps on the higher one?
The fuck?
CosmicGroinPull
Member
Okay I will accept this new business model as long as the annual spec upgrades are done something like this:
... You know, when I pull out the old APU and slot in the new one.
... You know, when I pull out the old APU and slot in the new one.
There's a delightful irony that you have never heard of PC/Console combi's in their various failed forms. They were such failures that they're not even part of the popular "history" of consoles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Bandai_Pippin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_CD32
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC-FX
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FM_Towns_Marty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_XEGS
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X68000
Yea all of this.
I think they just want to make as much money as possible before they exit out of the console business.
MistBreeze
Member
OK ,,,,
Thats mean consoles must stay consoles
And PCs must stay PCs
I did not know that it is so complicated
It is a disaster for devs
Think of it as a PC game where they don´t have millions of configurations but just lets say 3
They make a profile (resolution, texture quality, lighning quality) for each machine so it runs with 30/60 fps.
Nothing complicated here.
Except it is if you brand the machine with FPS capability. A game that runs 1080P/30FPS on one machine won't necessarily run 1080P/60FPS on the other despite it being more powerful. It might for most games but there will be games that dont since performance doesn't scale linearly in every instance.
You can end up in situations where the 1080P/60FPS version has worse visuals than the 30FPS version despite running on superior hardware.
I think it will come to this.
Maybe even with more revisions
2018: Xbox One A
2020: Xbox One B
2022: Xbox One C
2024: Xbox One D
Game released in 2018 plays perfect on Xbox One A with current graphics and plays on all future consoles
Game released in 2020 plays perfect on Xbox One B with current graphics and plays on all future consoles. Also works with reduced resolution, textures, lightning on Xbox One A
Game released in 2022 plays perfect on Xbox One C with current graphics and plays on all future consoles. Also works with reduced resolution, textures, lightning on Xbox One A and B
Game released in 2024 plays perfect on Xbox One D with current graphics and plays on all future consoles. Also works with reduced resolution, textures, lightning on Xbox One B and C. Drops Xbox One A
Interesting. I one way not a surprise in another it's funny to hear first rumblings of what may well be an exit from traditional console market towards PC and what is Valve is doing.
With hindsight MS got into a battle in home console space that has turned out to take them nowhere strategically and turned out to be a market of ups and down and dramatic swings.
Meanwhile another company has claimed top market share on PC in this important space and is pushing into living rooms on the back of it with devices that don't even push Windows OS.
I expect more dramatic changes of direction for MS going forward, a transition in the "home" space away from classic console model and finally a proper focus on PC as the right core platform for them to expand from.
Going to be interesting.
I could see Sony moving in a similar, if more device focused, manner.
With hindsight MS got into a battle in home console space that has turned out to take them nowhere strategically and turned out to be a market of ups and down and dramatic swings.
Meanwhile another company has claimed top market share on PC in this important space and is pushing into living rooms on the back of it with devices that don't even push Windows OS.
I expect more dramatic changes of direction for MS going forward, a transition in the "home" space away from classic console model and finally a proper focus on PC as the right core platform for them to expand from.
Going to be interesting.
I could see Sony moving in a similar, if more device focused, manner.
OK ,,,,
Thats mean consoles must stay consoles
And PCs must stay PCs
I did not know that it is so complicated
It is a disaster for devs
It is such a disaster for devs, that a game without graphical user settings on PC is partially considered broken by the user base.
Devs require you to tweak on PC in order to not be responsible themselves for the janky performance. Only way to counter this, as a gamer, is to have a config way way north of the minimal requirements (aka bruteforcing) in order to escape from framedrops and stutters.
plasmawave
Banned
I mean, who is sane enough to support all those xboxes?
Same. I do think this gen will be the one that solidifies how backwards compatibility will be for a while.
Because they're still in the process of unifying Windows 10 across multiple platforms and decoupling it makes sense since there won't be a Windows 11.
Since they are basically PC´s they are all running the same game on the same operating system with different hardware.
No more work for the devs as they are used in PC gaming since the beginning of time
wapplew
Member
So, in 2024, Xbox one D owner can only play Xbox one A cross gen game with better resolution, texture and lightning?
While PS6/NX2 owner play true next gen game with no compromise?
Ninja Sharingan
Banned
I don't know about you but I certainly bought an Xbox One because it offered better performance than Xbox 360, even though it was selling at a high price. What else did it offer really? I got banned once for my rant after trying Kinect for the first time so I certainly didn't buy XB1 for that
And updated Xbox One, better performance, same accessories, total backwards compatibility. What's not to like really?
Like you say, exclusive games is not really a factor anymore, as long as you have all multiplats. And look at the current PS4 library, I'm sure most of us can agree that it's not the best selling console this generation because of the exclusives. PS4 is simply the console where the best selling AAA multiplats will run at the highest resolution and framerate. What if Xbox One (Two) would take that spot and win all DF FaceOffs etc, you don't think that would matter?
I see one big problem for MS though. People might start waiting for the next version to arrive instead of buying the current one, either to get the new one with better performance or the older one after the inevitable price cut. Tricky situation.
I think this nails it. You are free to buy what you want when you want. It's on MS to make sure the titles stay forward and backwards compatible, we know there will be certain software that cant really run too well on the older models. That's just the way it is. You pgrade when you are ready and you own everything you have ever bought. Forget HD remasters, forget re releases. You bought it, you own it.
I really don't see what is not to like??
//DEVIL//
Member
the only way i see this can save them is if they follow Apple and Google concept of hardware and software.
release an updated Xbox one ( lets call it Xbox two lol )
this Xbox two can play all the Xbox one games but with smoother fps and loading resolution etc. and same goes for Xbox three.
this way gamers will not feel they spent their money on games they will no longer be able to play. and if they want advanced performance. they trade in or upgrade their console. ( which i kinda support this idea. i do not mind upgrading to a new system as long as i can play my games on it, i mean i do that yearly with phones which are way more expensive than home consoles. i even buy revision consoles and they are about the same technology inside )
much like the case with phones. This is what i think the only thing that can keep MS around.
if anything, the Xbox two will be more updated specs so in theory it should be more powerful than ps4.
if that is not what MS is doing, then they are just killing their Xbox one console softly by maximizing their profit in releasing those games for PC as well till the end of this generation and call it a day.
release an updated Xbox one ( lets call it Xbox two lol )
this Xbox two can play all the Xbox one games but with smoother fps and loading resolution etc. and same goes for Xbox three.
this way gamers will not feel they spent their money on games they will no longer be able to play. and if they want advanced performance. they trade in or upgrade their console. ( which i kinda support this idea. i do not mind upgrading to a new system as long as i can play my games on it, i mean i do that yearly with phones which are way more expensive than home consoles. i even buy revision consoles and they are about the same technology inside )
much like the case with phones. This is what i think the only thing that can keep MS around.
if anything, the Xbox two will be more updated specs so in theory it should be more powerful than ps4.
if that is not what MS is doing, then they are just killing their Xbox one console softly by maximizing their profit in releasing those games for PC as well till the end of this generation and call it a day.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
PC OS manufacturer wants a console to become another PC platform. Breaking news indeed
.Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
You can achieve a similar goal with the current model if the architecture stops wildly changing from one generation to the next. As much as people laugh it up, having a stable HW configuration for 5-6 years and lots of detailed documentation and low level HW access allows that HW to be more efficiently used than if you had the thicker layers of abstractions you would normally expect in a PC OS. It would likely mean a rising cost of HW over time.
The goal of having games behave just like standard PC software living across versions of Windows seem nice, but in a more controlled environment it remains to be seen how easy automatic forward compatibility is and how well it is achieved.
Caipirinha
Member
The target devs for the Xbox One will now be indies and the hackware community.
No you misunderstood me.
Every 2 years the developer develops for the current system with all the graphics they can get out of it.
But their games also work on the 2 previous iterations with reduced graphics so people who don´t want to buy a new console every 2 years can still play new games.
Just think of a PC. I can now fire up a 10 year old game and play it in 4K but I can also play the newest Call of whatever with most current graphics.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Good luck when you need to scale gameplay breaking effects, A.I., physics, etc... across huge performance deltas
.Good luck when you need to scale gameplay breaking effects, A.I., physics, etc... across huge performance deltas
As every PC game does?
Garrett 2U
Member
Good luck when you need to scale gameplay breaking effects, A.I., physics, etc... across huge performance deltas
Those features that gameplay is dependent on are obviously not the areas you would invest the extra hardware power into.
The base gameplay systems would be constant over all platforms to ensure consistency.
The extra hardware power would be used to increase resolution, frame rate, graphic effects, texture quality, etc.
Which is exactly what developers have been doing for the last decade with graphics sliders.
This is amazing news for Xbox.
Caipirinha
Member
They're leaving the console business so no.
MilkyJoe
Member
So much complaining in this thread.
I fail to see the problem here
He's explained that the games run on the UWA software allowing the hardware to be scaled. and I guess that allows the games to be scaled accordingly.
Current Xbox - 900p
Next Box - 1080/60
Next Box 2 - 4K??
With the same game scaled across the three according to the hardware capabilities.. There seems to be a lot of armchair devs coming up with nonsense that all 3rd party games will only run at 900/30 because... because what? because they made it up? Extraordinary...
May as well get a PC it will be cheaper? - Maybe people want all the fannying about that comes with keeping a PC. I want to turn it on via the controller and be greeted with the Xbox OS and away I go. I don't want any windows interaction from my sofa and TV. Who does?
It will fragment the user base - no it wont
It's not fair on poor people - I drive a shitty old Jeep. It does the same thing as a Land Rover, am I supposed to whine about the Land Rover owners? They both do the job, one happens to be a better ride. Why should progress be held up because of some people?
Xbox live... The outrage... Yeah that £20 for 13 months and the 52 free games it'll give me was a right mug off...
New hardware possibly every 2 - 3 years - "I DON'T WANT THIS" - Why? New hardware is the best part of times on Gaf. I have fuck all else to spend my money on, I would eat it up.
So what's the issue here? Xbox games on PC? Who does that hurt? Makes business sense for MS. Is it "my console of choice won't do this therefore rage...it will never happen... it's shit... LoL MS is backing out of video games" - Wat??
See when you have underdogs it builds innovation. This is a good idea. You know what isn't? 10 years with the same hardware.
I fail to see the problem here
He's explained that the games run on the UWA software allowing the hardware to be scaled. and I guess that allows the games to be scaled accordingly.
Current Xbox - 900p
Next Box - 1080/60
Next Box 2 - 4K??
With the same game scaled across the three according to the hardware capabilities.. There seems to be a lot of armchair devs coming up with nonsense that all 3rd party games will only run at 900/30 because... because what? because they made it up? Extraordinary...
May as well get a PC it will be cheaper? - Maybe people want all the fannying about that comes with keeping a PC. I want to turn it on via the controller and be greeted with the Xbox OS and away I go. I don't want any windows interaction from my sofa and TV. Who does?
It will fragment the user base - no it wont
It's not fair on poor people - I drive a shitty old Jeep. It does the same thing as a Land Rover, am I supposed to whine about the Land Rover owners? They both do the job, one happens to be a better ride. Why should progress be held up because of some people?
Xbox live... The outrage... Yeah that £20 for 13 months and the 52 free games it'll give me was a right mug off...
New hardware possibly every 2 - 3 years - "I DON'T WANT THIS" - Why? New hardware is the best part of times on Gaf. I have fuck all else to spend my money on, I would eat it up.
So what's the issue here? Xbox games on PC? Who does that hurt? Makes business sense for MS. Is it "my console of choice won't do this therefore rage...it will never happen... it's shit... LoL MS is backing out of video games" - Wat??
See when you have underdogs it builds innovation. This is a good idea. You know what isn't? 10 years with the same hardware.
No. No one does that. The big majority of PC games are made with the lowest common denominator in mind (consoles or even lower than that PCs).
They won't make a game for a little tiny chunk of the whole market just because you paid for that. They just give you some fancy effects on top of that. The rest depends of you and your brute PC breaking any bottleneck to achieve better performance.
Look at Witcher3 for example, do you really think it targets high end PCs? Sure, the game is better looking and performing on those rigs but... You really think this is just what a high end PC would achieve if targeted correctly? Bollocks.
Garrett 2U
Member
If you think this is signaling a decrease in Xbox console development, you're looking at it the wrong way.
If anything, we're going to be seeing a more frequent release of Xbox consoles at a wide range of price points.
Phil flat out said that in the OP.
They aim for a lowest common denominator and tack on some sider/options for extra's that are costly on performance. The lowest system will hold back the scope of anything made. Developers will aim for the widest install base.
A key reason why this idea hasn't worked in the past is that there is a business incentive to aim broad so additional hardware on consoles are ignored.
The business reason for the console cycles is to push the game makers off the old system by hyping and pushing a new one and showing them all the customers have moved there. When that happens more games show up.
Caipirinha
Member
It's super simple, they're going to release an update that turns Xbox Ones into a Windows 10 machine and possibly release some upgraded SKUs at a later date if sales warrant. This will be primarily to shift remaining stock and squeeze out any residual value in the hardware unit. It'll be a curio for the hackware community, it's a Steam Machine that runs W10 and there will be no future consoles, they're leaving the market. Done.
Highly unlikely given that the tech community have long known MS are working on an Apple TV competitor with similar specs to that product. That's where the money is and that's where MS is investing it's time. People have wondered where the Xbox fits into that model and this announcement answers that: it doesn't. Should not be a surprise, gaming has seemingly not been a particularly profitable market for Microsoft, it's a wonder they stayed in the game as long as they did, I suppose they thought the Xbox One would become that Apple TV competitor and all they'd need to do was release scaled down versions, but that didn't happen.
Perhaps they will repackage the Xbox One as the high end SKU of that TV device but that's to eek out value in remaining stock, it's not like the Xbone One is going to be a major push and product line for the company, that's absolutely the opposite to everything this announcement and the wider corporate situation suggests.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
Reverse steam machine.
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
So Sony finally won the war?
I predicted there wasn't going to be another traditional Xbox 'console' after this one a while back. MS is pulling out of there. They don't make enough money and games were an off-shoot anyway from the now redundant strategy of 'controlling the living room'.
I predicted there wasn't going to be another traditional Xbox 'console' after this one a while back. MS is pulling out of there. They don't make enough money and games were an off-shoot anyway from the now redundant strategy of 'controlling the living room'.
It sounds like they're betting hard on the w10 store and risking the XB1 install base to do so. I think it could go up or down depending on how the w10 store goes but since the w10 store offers what steam does but with less access and more issues to a rabid foaming at the hyper critical PC-fanbase; it sounds like the conclusion is forgone and we'll see MS scale back on it's gaming investment.
Garrett 2U
Member
You're wrong.
This essentially allows them to release consoles more frequently and in greater variety.
"You'll actually see us come out with new hardware capability during a generation allowing the same games to run backward and forward compatible because we have a Universal Windows Application running on top of the Universal Windows Platform"
Caipirinha
Member
If you had invested as much R&D into the Xbox One as MS did and had all that stock still to push, you would find a way to wring out as much residual revenue as you could, and you put a positive PR spin on it to keep investors from getting spooked.
It will be even easier that too. Because there will only be a small handful of different Xbox revisions to optimise for as opposed to having to deal with multiple combinations of PC parts.
When it's called a new console gen everything it's perfect. When it's called upgrade, the hell breaks loose. Marketing it's all that matters.
Steam machines are a bad idea because there is no proper software support for them.
Steam machines are a bad idea because there is no proper software support for them.
That reasoning contradicts why Consoles still exist as a product. Mostly because there is a audience who don't want or can't afford that sort of frequent upgrade cycle.
UWA solves nothing with the issues why this sort of thing has failed before. The business reasons are why this idea has failed before. The technical ability has been there (many many BC consoles as well as examples of console base spec revision).
UWA solves the problem if you're making Candy Crush and want it on everything windows. But a game with any more ambition will need more work to get that idea working and MS has provide enough incentive to do that work as well as cut them in for a percentage.
Caipirinha
Member
That quote simply describes a Steam Machine running Windows 10, and MS know as well as all of us that that has not proven to be a mass market, hence the scale and tone of this announcement. Windows 10 software update for current hardware, push remaining stock out the door, if there's a niche market then release some upgraded SKUs, exit the console business and focus on the real competition: Apple, Google, Amazon.