Microsoft unifying PC/XB1 platforms, Phil implies Xbox moving to incremental upgrades

Compact size and cheap price.

Well there are tons of small PC cases out there similar to the xbox one in size that can even sport the big GPU cards.Upgrading your PC every 2-3 years dont have to be expensive either instead of having to buy a whole new box if you are going for the middle tier stuff that consoles also do.
 
Then why buy an Xbox? Sure it is easier then PC gaming for many but let your PC run that simplified code then without all the other heavy OS features like steam OS. Instead of having to uppgrade both I can put down all my money on the PC.

It's all about convenience. But vcc made a very good point when he addressed the issue of "scale":

With each new generation developers were able to do things which weren't possible before. I am not talking about fps or AA. I am talking about things like scale, KI, new input devices which the old system didn't support or sharing your gaming experience while playing.

If MS forces game developers to make any game run on the cheapest and oldest (!) SKU as well, then this SKU becomes the weakest link in the chain. This naturally limits the possibility of developers to actually exploit the additional power added which each upgrade.

So this forward compatability is actually limiting games develepment. So while fps and resolution may profit, the games' scale, KI and so on wont.

Result? AAA Games possible on PS5 won't be possible on XBOX Two's weakest SKU, hence developers will either abandon that ship or they produce downgraded games which wont exploit the power and possibilities of the stronger ones. How "funny" ist that? Sounds like a nightmare to me.
 
Why not to release a new console every 4 years ( not 7 or 8 like ps3 and 360 )??

This way no need for upgradable boxes?? And consoles will raise the bar for lowest common denominator constantly ?!
 
It's all about convenience. But vcc made a very good point when he addressed the issue of "scale":

With each new generation developers were able to do things which weren't possible before. I am not talking about fps or AA. I am talking about things like scale, KI, new input devices which the old system didn't support or sharing your gaming experience while playing.

If MS forces game developers to make any game run on the cheapest and oldest (!) SKU as well, then this SKU becomes the weakest link in the chain. This naturally limits the possibility of developers to actually exploit the additional power added which each upgrade.

So this forward compatability is actually limiting games develepment. So while fps and resolution may profit, the games' scale, KI and so on wont.

Result? AAA Games possible on PS5 won't be possible on XBOX Two's weakest SKU, hence developers will either abandon that ship or they produce downgraded games which wont exploit the power and possibilities of the stronger ones. How "funny" ist that? Sounds like a nightmare to me.

OMG had not thought about that it surely sounds like a nightmare. And since this will effect PC too I say burn this stupid idea to the ground.
 
It's all about convenience. But vcc made a very good point when he addressed the issue of "scale":

With each new generation developers were able to do things which weren't possible before. I am not talking about fps or AA. I am talking about things like scale, KI, new input devices which the old system didn't support or sharing your gaming experience while playing.

If MS forces game developers to make any game run on the cheapest and oldest (!) SKU as well, then this SKU becomes the weakest link in the chain. This naturally limits the possibility of developers to actually exploit the additional power added which each upgrade.

So this forward compatability is actually limiting games develepment. So while fps and resolution may profit, the games' scale, KI and so on wont.

Result? AAA Games possible on PS5 won't be possible on XBOX Two's weakest SKU, hence developers will either abandon that ship or they produce downgraded games which wont exploit the power and possibilities of the stronger ones. How "funny" ist that? Sounds like a nightmare to me.

Yeah this is a possible outcome, but if the majority of games for the first couple of years of next gen were going to be a combination of cross gen games and remakes, it might not matter so much.
 
Interesting. All we can do is wait and see what happen going forward. I won't rule out the possibility personally


TowerofSega.jpg


Say hello to the future of Xbox One.

This made me laugh more than it ever should have.
 
It's all about convenience. But vcc made a very good point when he addressed the issue of "scale":

With each new generation developers were able to do things which weren't possible before. I am not talking about fps or AA. I am talking about things like scale, KI, new input devices which the old system didn't support or sharing your gaming experience while playing.

If MS forces game developers to make any game run on the cheapest and oldest (!) SKU as well, then this SKU becomes the weakest link in the chain. This naturally limits the possibility of developers to actually exploit the additional power added which each upgrade.

So this forward compatability is actually limiting games develepment. So while fps and resolution may profit, the games' scale, KI and so on wont.

Result? AAA Games possible on PS5 won't be possible on XBOX Two's weakest SKU, hence developers will either abandon that ship or they produce downgraded games which wont exploit the power and possibilities of the stronger ones. How "funny" ist that? Sounds like a nightmare to me.

Agree
Backward compatible is great, but forward compatible is big no no for me.
Say PS3 and PS4 fully backward and forward compatible, ND could only make Uncharted 4 that look like Uncharted collection. No large driving level, just higher res corridor.
 
It's all about convenience. But vcc made a very good point when he addressed the issue of "scale":

With each new generation developers were able to do things which weren't possible before. I am not talking about fps or AA. I am talking about things like scale, KI, new input devices which the old system didn't support or sharing your gaming experience while playing.

If MS forces game developers to make any game run on the cheapest and oldest (!) SKU as well, then this SKU becomes the weakest link in the chain. This naturally limits the possibility of developers to actually exploit the additional power added which each upgrade.

So this forward compatability is actually limiting games develepment. So while fps and resolution may profit, the games' scale, KI and so on wont.

Result? AAA Games possible on PS5 won't be possible on XBOX Two's weakest SKU, hence developers will either abandon that ship or they produce downgraded games which wont exploit the power and possibilities of the stronger ones. How "funny" ist that? Sounds like a nightmare to me.

It sounds like a nightmare because it's a scenario you created, not one that would actually happen.

Microsoft wouldn't force any developer to support any device specifically.
The point of the UWP is to target whichever devices you desire, using the same code base.

So if a developer wanted to make a game of scale that wasn't possible on Xbox One, they simply would develop it for PS5 and Xbox 2 alone.

Not every game has to be compatible with every device. The point is that developers can now target the UWP and reach whatever Xbox consoles, Windows PCs/Surfaces/Phones/TVs etc. that they desire to support.
 
Sounds terrible to be honest since users won't all get the same experience. It's like a 32X or N64 Expansion Pak situation on steroids. It can work for phones and tablets, but not for a console IMO.
 

Do I read it wrongly or there's no price for GPU and memory on that list? Also controller and OS?

Well there are tons of small PC cases out there similar to the xbox one in size that can even sport the big GPU cards.Upgrading your PC every 2-3 years dont have to be expensive either instead of having to buy a whole new box if you are going for the middle tier stuff that consoles also do.

Which is fine for people who like to upgrade. Like me, I have a PC and not a Xbone. But there a lot of people who don't want to bother with that and buy a set up box every x years. Like consoles.
 
Well there are tons of small PC cases out there similar to the xbox one in size that can even sport the big GPU cards.Upgrading your PC every 2-3 years dont have to be expensive either instead of having to buy a whole new box if you are going for the middle tier stuff that consoles also do.

The average console gamer isn't going to buy a PC. That's just how it is. No matter how easy everything is on PC, consoles are easier. No matter how reasonable the cost of a PC and how easy you can upgrade it, consoles are cheaper and those two things are the most important things to people. Consoles need to be able to be set up and played by kids or the technologically illiterate. They need to be an affordable present for the average kid. PCs aren't that.

It always surprises me how many PC players think that the average console player will just jump over to PC, because it just makes sense to do so. People buying PC hardware primarily to play games are the absolute tip of the hardcore, console gamers are a totally different group of people in the main.
 
The average console gamer won't be used to buying incremental increases. They won't jump to PC, they'll jump to any competitor offering a fixed platform for X years.

People accept it with phones right now but I cannot see it translate to gaming hardware.
 
As it stands now my money is on "Xbox will die a slow death in the next 2-3 years" and it'll just be Windows games on PC from then on. Good luck making them pay a yearly fee for online Multiplayer.

Damn as an Xbox One owner I'd feel like I got shafted 3 times, first with the DRM and TVTV fiasco, second with the Kinect 2.0 basically transforming into a useless paperweight and third the original One will seem worthless in the middle of the gen thanks to the new and shiny One.5...

If the One.5 flops, which I feel is very probable, MS will be done with consoles for good. But first we'll need detailed specs and plans, cause right now we don't really know much about it anyway.

E3 hype is growing yet again!!1
 
It sounds like a nightmare because it's a scenario you created, not one that would actually happen.

Microsoft wouldn't force any developer to support any device specifically.
The point of the UWP is to target whichever devices you desire, using the same code base.

So if a developer wanted to make a game of scale that wasn't possible on Xbox One, they simply would develop it for PS5 and Xbox 2 alone.

Not every game has to be compatible with every device. The point is that developers can now target the UWP and reach whatever Xbox consoles, Windows PCs/Surfaces/Phones/TVs etc. that they desire to support.

How is that future compatiable like they mentioned. And how fun to see that the console you bought between upgrades, perhaps soon before the new hardware, wont support games that will come out in a few month and you have to get a new one. On PC you can at least only uppgrade the one thing that blocks you off but here you need to switch the whole thing.
 
The point of PR speak isn't to simplify but to obscure and re-emphasis. Some part of communications as a profession is to simplify but a whole lot of it is how to 'package' information. Lying without lying. Like Clinton saying "I did not have sexual relations TM with that woman" or when BP puts out a message that the environment is important TM to them. Things like non answers to questions, rail roading into prepared answers ect... Any Exec will spend some time with a coach to learn stuff like that and whole departments prepare speeches/communications with that purpose. (a huge deal with Mattrick is how unprepared he was and how various xbox folks were contradicting each other at XB1 launch. They lack communications at that point. Same w Ps3 era Sony and their stupid 'take a second job' shit.)

Taking it at face value is generally a bad idea.

I'm not taking anything at face value. Merely pointing out to you that my forecast of MS plans was exactly right. And your forecast was exactly wrong.

actually, the point of PR speak, is for a company to speak to the public. It's not always nefarious and it's quite often just meant to be informative. There's honest PR, dishonest PR and everything between.

Here on Neogaf, we have a tendency to attach a negative connotation to the term 'PR'. But it isn't inherently a bad word.

In the case of UWAs, there no idication whatsoever that what they SAY the functionality of UWAs are is different from reality. I mean, they'll either work or multiple devices or they won't. They are saying they will. So for the sake of discussion of MS's future plans, i think its safe to analyze the situation with the knowledge that MS's plans revolve around the idea that UWAs will function as they've described.
 
Umm... You don't purchase a new console every year, especially with a relatively low specs improvement?

Okay, maybe I'm missing something. I don't see anywhere in the article saying that they're going to make hardware updates every year. I just see "during a generation".
 
How is this any different than buying a new console every generation?

Because

1) Console generations bring about vast changes in power 10-16 times previous one that you invest in once every 5-6 years.
2) Which means you can see different kinds of game that you didn't previously(and yes there are lots of them, despite people saying this gen is essentially gen 7 with better graphics)
 
I don't understand why people are mad with this.

Isn't this what the NX is going to be? Spencer said almost the same things Iwata did.
 
Time difference

7 - 9 years is not acceptable in my eyes

Okay, maybe I'm missing something. I don't see anywhere in the article saying that they're going to make hardware updates every year. I just see "during a generation".


Exactly.

People are jumping to conclusions to poo poo something that has not been explained.

Personally i'd buy a new one ever 2 - 3 years at the drop of a hat.
 
Because

1) Console generations bring about vast changes in power 10-16 times previous one that you invest in once every 5-6 years.
2) Which means you can see different kinds of game that you didn't previously(and yes there are lots of them, despite people saying this gen is essentially gen 7 with better graphics)

So instead of investing in a console with locked hardware for an entire generation, I'm given the option for a one-all, end-all console that I can upgrade yearly, bi-yearly, if I want to. Hell, or just have the base model and not upgrade, but still be able to play?

I don't understand the negative impact of having these options.
 
A PC spec's like a XB1 is as cheap as the XB1. Ease of use is subjective. Most PC's are buy off the shelf plug and play.

The parallels you're drawing between potential Xbox models and the PC are flawed imo. PC's these days are a lot simpler than they used to be, thanks to services like Steam and the like... but the experience is still not nearly as simple as a console, and that's not simply because the console's have a single specification. My PC has a rather old Haswell i5, 8gb RAM @ 1600mhz, and a 970 GTX. What settings do I choose to ensure Rise of the Tomb Raider runs satisfactorily throughout the entirety of the game? I have no fucking clue. So I spend the opening moments of the game establishing a comfortable high-end... which I'm basically guaranteed to have to adjust the moment I get to one of the two notorious open areas that seem to wipe roughly half the fps off everyone that encounters them. There's no graphical profile that's tailored to provide my PC with the optimal experience, balancing the graphics and performance in the way that the Xbox One version is. This wouldn't be the case with a potential XB1.5 or whatever, as the developers will know exactly what this alternate spec is, due to it not being something I've thrown together over time, unique to all the other thousands of hardware combinations PC users may potentially have. So if I owned this upgraded Xbox, my experience would still be entirely "plug and play" rather than the "plug, faff about a bit, and play" that much of PC gaming is.. at the very most I would imagine that you could potentially select the original XB1's graphics profile and see increased performance... but you wouldn't be adjusting a whole host of individual graphical settings, many of which the user may not have any idea of what they actually do, or the cost of having them enabled.

I also disagree with any comparisons to hardware like Sega CD, 32X etc, for the simple reason that these devices were essentially entirely new platforms built on top of the existing one. They had their own (sparse) software libraries... and if you released a game like Virtua Fighter for one of them, then it couldn't be sold to anyone other than small subset of people that owned the new hardware. This wouldn't be the case for various Xbox models, where you'd only be cutting off potential users in the event that the game you create is such a step up that it can't feasibly perform on the older model. Much like with PC gaming however, this scenario isn't likely to occur until you're talking about the latest hardware being contrasted with a model numerous years older. So assuming that Sony were to continue releasing consoles on a regular console lifecycle, it would probably be in an Xbox owners best interest to buy their upgraded hardware aligned with the year the console generation would usually transition (along with whatever mid-gen upgrades they feel like going with also). This would be similar to how many PC gamers will buy new hardware around the time of new console launches, as that's when the new baseline for gaming features will be set. Or to make a mobile comparison, it could be similar to something like the iPhone where some people buy on a "generation" cycle of iPhone 4 > iPhone 5 > iPhone 6, whilst others buy on a cycle of the incremental upgrades like iPhone 4S > iPhone 5S > iPhone 6S etc. It's not really confusing to the average customer, doesn't cause the PC situation of the user dealing with a million different configuration options, and software simply cuts off users with a phone too old to be considered part of the current phone landscape (with some cutting edge software requiring the absolute latest phone to provide a "generation leap" of graphical output).

Sounds terrible to be honest since users won't all get the same experience. It's like a 32X or N64 Expansion Pak situation on steroids. It can work for phones and tablets, but not for a console IMO.

N64 Expansion Pak comparison makes sense (except it'd likely be a benefit to most games rather than a handful of games designed specifically to support it, as a result of PCs making varying specs something each game is designed to handle). 32X comparison doesn't make sense.
 
So instead of investing in a console with locked hardware for an entire generation, I'm given the option for a one-all, end-all console that I can upgrade yearly, bi-yearly, if I want to. Hell, or just have the base model and not upgrade, but still be able to play?

I don't understand the negative impact of having these options.

Its gamers, mate.

Its what we do :)
 
Because

1) Console generations bring about vast changes in power 10-16 times previous one that you invest in once every 5-6 years.
2) Which means you can see different kinds of game that you didn't previously(and yes there are lots of them, despite people saying this gen is essentially gen 7 with better graphics)

When have they happened together?


Isn't PC generation-less? What's wrong with that model again?

Unlimited backwards compatibility must really suck balls or something...
 
Because

1) Console generations bring about vast changes in power 10-16 times previous one that you invest in once every 5-6 years.
2) Which means you can see different kinds of game that you didn't previously(and yes there are lots of them, despite people saying this gen is essentially gen 7 with better graphics)

I think there will still be that 5-6 year jump in power, if that's the upgrade path you choose.

In addition to that option their will be a mid-generation device that doesn't enable "different kinds of games" neccisarily, but it runs current gen games better. What's notable here is that the mid-gen device doesn't lead to player base fragmentation as its compatible with current gen games AND games that will come out for its successor.
 
So instead of investing in a console with locked hardware for an entire generation, I'm given the option for a one-all, end-all console that I can upgrade yearly, bi-yearly, if I want to. Hell, or just have the base model and not upgrade, but still be able to play?

I don't understand the negative impact of having these options.

This is the big question. When will they drop the support of version X.
 
I
If MS forces game developers to make any game run on the cheapest and oldest (!) SKU as well, then this SKU becomes the weakest link in the chain. This naturally limits the possibility of developers to actually exploit the additional power added which each upgrade.
Not gonna happen.
 
How is that future compatiable like they mentioned. And how fun to see that the console you bought between upgrades, perhaps soon before the new hardware, wont support games that will come out in a few month and you have to get a new one. On PC you can at least only uppgrade the one thing that blocks you off but here you need to switch the whole thing.

Because the reality is that situation would rarely, if never, happen.
Game designers have to limit the scope of their games to target a large portion of customers, it's a reality of game development. It always will be.

The situation he describe is one he created to make a problem where it doesn't exist.

For example, let's imagine there is a game that is so demanding, they can only target a small portion of customers.

Hardware components drop in price significantly over time. If there was only one PS5 model, but multiple Xbox Two variations, there would inevitable be a more powerful Xbox Two than PS5, if even a year after.

So in that case, why not push this technical feature even higher and only target the most powerful Xbox Two and PC, but not PS5?

Because that makes little sense when you can just turn down the feature a bit and reach a larger audience.
 
Well, with the architecture of the current gen consoles there shouldn't be a reason for the next gen not to just be built on very similar but a lot more powerful hardware so this seems plausible.
 
Haha, so true. If he'd said "I expect a shorter Xbox console gen this time round and we plan to keep the Xbox One relevant beyond this gen" it wouldn't have got nearly the same reaction, despite amounting to the same thing.

That's because that's not what's happening. They are basically sidelining the Xbox console business in favour of W10 PC. They're going to put all future games on W10 PCs. You do realize there isn't going to be any more big first-party titles exclusive to XB1, right? The install base is too small and they're not making the money they'd like.
 
I think it can work for consoles like the phone and tablet market. Especially now as consoles are quite similar to PCs.

It ends to concepts of generations. We have had a preview of how it works on iOS and android. Some games will support older devices, others won't.

Over time the Universal Windows App stuff will improve and more features will be implemented.

As long as they came make it clear to the consumer what it will and won't run on.

I quite like the model. I think all console manufacturers will move to it eventually.

I'm really interested by this model.
 
This is the big question. When will they drop the support of version X.

I see it like this. It's a PC in the living room. Period. My opinion on how they do this is creating plug and play hardware that you can insert and remove, instead of buying an entire box. This eliminates the 'dropping' support. Games will work regardless. The experience is what differs depending on the level of upgrade you have (Like PC). Makes sense if you want to own the living room and the PC space.
 
At this point MS has to try something different than what they are doing. I'm not sure if it will work but he'll it's worth a shot.
 
I think we are perhaps over estimating what an Xbox One.5 could actually do for games, to me it's mostly better clarity, performance and detail. Stuff like rock solid 1080p 60fps, Vsync, better AA, AF, textures, lighting, effects, Level of detail distances, loading.

Perhaps stuff like VR from Oculus would likely miss Xbox One and aim for an Xbox One.5

Xbox Two would be more like PS5 if Sony stick to the usual new console path and by that time it would be okay to phase out main game development on Xbox One and as we all experience every generation, there is some overlap with last gen games so Xbox One.5 would be fine for years to come while still remaining competitive then Xbox Two releases a few years into PS5 lifespan or a normal next gen console cycle.

So, Microsoft possibly have two main consoles on the go through a normal generation of 6-8 years, phase out the oldest console when Xbox Two.5 is released. You still get a long console generation with solid support but if you want better you can get new hardware, if you join late you get better hardware or older hardware for a cheaper price or if you join early, you won't get left behind half way through a generation. It's your choice when to jump in and just another option.

Xbox One - Nov 2013
Xbox One Slim - Nov 2016 - Price drop
New mid term Xbox - Nov 2017
Mid Term Xbox Slim - Nov 2019 - Price drop
Xbox Two - Nov 2020
 
That's because that's not what's happening. They are basically sidelining the Xbox console business in favour of W10 PC. They're going to put all future games on W10 PCs. You do realize there isn't going to be any more big first-party titles exclusive to XB1, right? The install base is too small and they're not making the money they'd like.

Big first party titles exclusives are not selling that well this gen, except for Nintendo's. And probably Uncharted 4. The big sellers are the multiplats now.
 
I thought the big advantage of consoles was that the SW was specifically customized to make the absolute most of the HW resources. If you unify the console OS with the mainstream desktop Windows 10, which is made to run on widely different hardware, won't we lose that benefit?
 
Cross-gen games forever on XBox if this happens then, console developers will always aim for the lowest common denominator.

What I don't understand is; software licencing and sales are where money is made on consoles, and manufacturing costs for a console reduce over time. So why would MS go down the route of retooling a factory every 18 months or so, thereby increasing research & development, production and design costs (console hardware is expensive to design and produce), confusing the traditional console buyer, the retailer (which versions get the shelf space?) and eating into their own profits on older hardware?

Apart from the BC aspect it makes not sense.

They should just throw the money into producing first party games and release them on all systems.

It's all about convenience. But vcc made a very good point when he addressed the issue of "scale":

With each new generation developers were able to do things which weren't possible before. I am not talking about fps or AA. I am talking about things like scale, KI, new input devices which the old system didn't support or sharing your gaming experience while playing.

If MS forces game developers to make any game run on the cheapest and oldest (!) SKU as well, then this SKU becomes the weakest link in the chain. This naturally limits the possibility of developers to actually exploit the additional power added which each upgrade.

So this forward compatability is actually limiting games develepment. So while fps and resolution may profit, the games' scale, KI and so on wont.

Result? AAA Games possible on PS5 won't be possible on XBOX Two's weakest SKU, hence developers will either abandon that ship or they produce downgraded games which wont exploit the power and possibilities of the stronger ones. How "funny" ist that? Sounds like a nightmare to me.

Yep. If this was happening now, and the weakest SKU was always targeted, would we have seen physically-based rendering at this point? I very much doubt it, we'd be stuck in PS3/360 land.

It always surprises me how many PC players think that the average console player will just jump over to PC, because it just makes sense to do so. People buying PC hardware primarily to play games are the absolute tip of the hardcore, console gamers are a totally different group of people in the main.

I reckon the market that would make the jump to console to PC is exactly the same market as the one that owns console(s) and a gaming PC anyway.
 
I think the typical development cycle would be:

Xbox 1.0: target hardware for entire generation. Not capable of running games that target xbox2.0
Xbox1.5 : capable of running Xbox 1.0 games with better performance and/or feature support (oculus rift). Also capable of running games that target Xbox 2.0, but with graphics setting significantly lowered.
Xbox 2.0: capable of running games that targeted previous iterations. Target hardware for entire generation.

Rinse and repeat.

For the type of gamer who prefers a 5-6 year cycle, they skip on the 1.5. and upgrade when the 2.0 comes out because they new games won't work on their 1.0

For the gamer that what's the latest and greatest they trade in there 1.0 console when the 1.5 launches.

For gamers that join a gen late, they have the option of getting cheap but well supported hardware 1.0 hardware or state of the art 1.5. They don't have to worry about limiting their games catalog.

For AAA developers, targeting the 2.0 hardware is less risky, because people with 1.5 hardware are also potential customers.

For developers of less intensive games, your potential audience spans multiple generations.
 
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