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[Foffy]

Sure, things can happen and kids have their own personalities, but the idea that kids are born lazy is a weird one and what's been suggested. Your kids will be as responsible as you make them be. They'll be as independent as you encourage them to be.

Kids are born with wonder and curiosity, yes. But the hand that produces laziness can not just be parents, but schools, culture, social institutions, and impositions. At the very least, admit it can go beyond factors of parenting. Boredom is the problem in life, but how that gets cultivated is key.

How many adults live a TGIF lifestyle from a culture that has beaten their wonder into the floor in the conquest of money, which of course supercedes their wonder? You can easily look more at culture to be at fault than any sort of parent, because social dogmas expand far beyond homemade dogmas. Going based on some of your posts, you paint the parent as the true vessel to shape a person, but they're only one. Children learn far more from other children than the ascribed roles of authority around them a lot of the time, anyway.

You seem to be making many generalizations, and that may be why this thread has devolved into everyone essentially having to converse with you in one way or another.

 

[I'm an expert]

You need to have kids to be able to talk about them?

You have no clue what raising a child is. Zero. Nothing. Everything you have written about raising kids here is the same as me writing about being a failure. No knowledge whatsoever.

 

[ascii42]

Again, the idea is that you as a parent instil certain values that will remain regardless of their personality or social setting.

Doesn't mean they won't ignore those values. I don't know how many times my parents hammered in how important it was to go to class. To their credit, and my own, I nearly always did go to class. But I'd be lying if I said I never skipped a class in college. I wouldn't blame my parents for my decision to skip a class. Your parents can tell you how stupid it is to get drunk on a school night when you have an 8:30 AM class. It's not their fault if you ignore that.

 

[Euphoria14]

What I see is irresponsible people. How you can use this as an example of people having kids by accident is just plain weird.

Why are you excusing them of their stupidity?

What about those kids who go from 18 to 30 and still live at home, never saved money and blowing it on video games, cars, etc...

It's the parents fault right?

No excuse for someone at 30, who has lived with their parents the entire time to not have money saved up and if need be move to a city/state with a lower cost of living so they can start their own life and make their own way instead of continuing to rely on others so that they can have "money in their pocket".

Just going based on much of what I've read in this thread with some people not moving because they are comfortable in their current situation.

 

[Symphonia]

Doesn't mean they won't ignore those values. I don't know how many times my parents hammered in how important it was to go to class. To their credit, and my own, I nearly always did go to class. But I'd be lying if I said I never skipped a class in college. I wouldn't blame my parents for my decision to skip a class. Your parents can tell you how stupid it is to get drunk on a school night when you have an 8:30 AM class. It's not their fault if you ignore that.

Nailed it. Parenting is like trying to explain to Miles how parenting works. You can explain and advise all you want, but whether those words sink in and have an effect is completely down to the child alone.

 

[Dunlop]

Parents have no control over how responsible and independent their kids will be when they grow up?

They do I would say up until adolescence, afterwrds it's time to put on your "big boy pants"

My father died when I was 3 and my mother was a drunk up until my high school years. I could either dwell on that misfortune and use it as an excuse to never achieve anything or build off of it.

I chose the latter. Moved out at 17 as the home environment was detrimental and went to school while working a full time job. Tiring to be sure but the life lessons were invaluable.

There is not situation of a underachieving kid in his/hers 20's or 30's where the parent is to blame, They are old enough to see the world around them and make the decisions that affect their own lives.

That said, there is no right or wrong answer to the question in the OP. But I am specifically responding to your ridiculous claim that the parent is responsible for their adult "children"

 

[Oxn]

Nailed it. Parenting is like trying to explain to Miles how parenting works. You can explain and advise all you want, but whether those words sink in and have an effect is completely down to the child alone.

Precisely.

 

[Wreav]

Forgetting Miles, because honestly he's a lost cause and not worth our attention any longer, I think another factor affecting these under 30s is the fact that they were one of the first generations to be raised under the assumption that they could go to school and get any degree and "be whatever they want to be".

This is a message that has been force fed to our generation at every turn, only to find out that your theater arts degree is completely useless in a world that is increasing tech focused, and one that thanks to automation, is running a leaner workforce than ever.

Now you have kids coming out of school with worthless degrees, thinking the world is set against them because that's just how the system is, when in reality, they didn't apply themselves hard enough or they chose their career path foolishly.

Also for whatever reason, there's nearly zero focus on trade and vocational jobs. The world needs plumbers, but these soft kids that have lived in relative comfort their whole lives don't want to get their hands dirty.

 

[ascii42]

What about those kids who go from 18 to 30 and still live at home, never saved money and blowing it on video games, cars, etc...

It's the parents fault right?

No excuse for someone at 30, who has lived with their parents the entire time to not have money saved up and if need be move to a city/state with a lower cost of living so they can start their own life and make their own way instead of continuing to rely on others so that they can have "money in their pocket".

Just going based on much of what I've read in this thread with some people not moving because they are comfortable in their current situation.

Well, at that point the parents could be considered enablers. Figuring out how much blame to ascribe to an enabler is tricky. There can be a lot of damned if you do, damned if you don't situations.

 

[Foffy]

Forgetting Miles, because honestly he's a lost cause and not worth our attention any longer, I think another factor affecting these under 30s is the fact that they were one of the first generations to be raised under the assumption that they could go to school and get any degree and "be whatever they want to be".

This is a message that has been force fed to our generation at every turn, only to find out that your theater arts degree is completely useless in a world that is increasing tech focused, and one that thanks to automation, is running a leaner workforce than ever.

Now you have kids coming out of school with worthless degrees, thinking the world is set against them because that's just how the system is, when in reality, they didn't apply themselves hard enough or they chose their career path foolishly.

Also for whatever reason, there's nearly zero focus on trade and vocational jobs. The world needs plumbers, but these soft kids that have lived in relative comfort their whole lives don't want to get their hands dirty.

To be fair, we also fuck up by having the social idea that you need to have a solid floor plan at 18 and need to follow the blueprint to a tee. This is why I consider the "out on your own 18, no buts about it" to be absolutely dangerous in terms of an idea to project onto others, especially in a country where its own citizens can't even legally drink yet.

Speaking of me, I first went to college 8 years ago, and have since changed my vocation at least three times. I changed because as I went on in life, I realized what I was chasing was either done for shallow reasons, or that I wanted to do something with more meaning. I started in the cozy "do whatever for money' idea, which brought me into the tech sector, but I was miserable and suicidal from it. I then shifted to the generic "person of service to aid suffering" idea, and juggled between being a social worker, a nurse, and now someone interested in self-inquiry, and in that case I essentially ran in a circle, looking for practicality and not the real meat of why I was interested in service in the first place. Of course, there are obstacles there - self-inquiry is essentially selling water by the river, to take a Zen adage, so money is almost considered optional in such a discipline; very bad if you live in America, where it matters above all life - but I wouldn't dare replace it for a 9-5 in the world. I would choose death over that, but that perhaps speaks how seriously I take and value it.

I don't let any of that be called up as "failure" though, for you can only act and be what you are and where you are, and where you are now is merely based on previous factors. I think a core problem for many others that you alluded to with automation is that even if they ignored what they wanted to do and became suckers for the game of practicality, there is nothing saying they can have or sustain that. That too will be hitting the generation in question very hard in time, as they age and realize games of retirement and career sustainability are in as much question as the climate of this earth will be.

 

[TomServo]

You need to have kids to be able to talk about them?

Yup.

 

[FallingEdge]

I've raised dogs which is like raising a kid. For the first few years anyway.

 

[CrocMother]

You have no clue what raising a child is. Zero. Nothing. Everything you have written about raising kids here is the same as me writing about being a failure. No knowledge whatsoever.

Are you Donald Trump?

 

[TomServo]

I've raised dogs which is like raising a kid. For the first few years anyway.

Yeah, no.

 

[Symphonia]

I've raised dogs which is like raising a kid. For the first few years anyway.

I have a dog and not once have I had to change it's nappy or make bottles up for it.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Nailed it. Parenting is like trying to explain to Miles how parenting works. You can explain and advise all you want, but whether those words sink in and have an effect is completely down to the child alone.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

This is the kind of folksy home-spun wisdom I intend to dispense when I'm a dad btw

You have no clue what raising a child is. Zero. Nothing. Everything you have written about raising kids here is the same as me writing about being a failure. No knowledge whatsoever.

This is so great

 

[Vyse The Legend]

I've been on my own since I was 18. Except in my case, my parents bought a house and left me our apartment. So, technically, they moved out. Haha.

 

[Goldenroad]

I have a dog and not once have I had to change it's nappy or make bottles up for it.

Plus I can smoke weed and say Fuck in front of my dog without fear of any ramifications.

 

[Symphonia]

Plus I can smoke weed and say Fuck in front of my dog without fear of any ramifications.

Some parents do that anyway, but the less said about that the better. After all, we don't want to say anything that will give Miles ammo for yet another rant about parenting.

 

[I'm an expert]

Are you Donald Trump?

If you go to the very first thread made on gaf about him on the day he decided to run, I pledged my vote to him then. People laughed.




..and now?

 

[Oxn]

I've been on my own since I was 18. Except in my case, my parents bought a house and left me our apartment. So, technically, they moved out. Haha.

Thats even better than moving out.

 

[Future]

I've raised dogs which is like raising a kid. For the first few years anyway.

Holy shit it is scary that people believe this. Kids are a whole different ballgame. You aren't even on the right field

 

[Oxn]

Holy shit it is scary that people believe this. Kids are a whole different ballgame. You aren't even on the right field

They are talking about raising a kid, not raising a kid properly.

They can just feed the kid and itll grow up.

 

[Forkball]

If you go to the very first thread made on gaf about him on the day he decided to run, I pledged my vote to him then. People laughed.




..and now?

I'm sure they would still laugh.

 

[I'm an expert]

I'm sure they would still laugh.

I have no problem waiting till November to see your reaction then.

 

[Gintoki313]

I'm 20 myself, and have no interest in moving out at the moment. Personally, I want to be fully prepared before I go out on my own. I want a hefty amount of money in my savings, a job that will keep me financially stable (which I'm crossing my fingers that I get one that I signed up for), and a car (which I still need to get).

It's weird because a lot of people are telling me to move out all the time. Not sure where this "once your 18 you need to get out" way of thinking came from. If I moved out in my current state, I'd be struggling like no other. Nothing worst then going back to my parents house with nothing because I couldn't handle myself. I'd be disappointed in myself, and they would too.

I'm pretty happy living with my family. They don't annoy me, and they are great company. It's also nice not to be paying bills or rent either of course. I think at my current state, I'll be 23-25 before I move out. Which I don't think is too bad.

 

[Dusk Soldier]

I'm with you. There's a bit of arrogance in believing the only way to grow into an adult is to spend your 20's away from home. Millions of people, for thousands of years, all over the world have managed to live full lives in multi-generational households.

And I've not seen anyone in this thread articulate specifically what life skills are learned and what growth happens on their own. omDo most American parents feed and shelter their kids fr age 0-18, teach them nothing about life, and then let them figure things out themselves? Cooking, cleaning, budgeting, paying taxes, navigating leases, etc all seem trivial to learn IME. And they ought to be learned well before 18.

There wasn't any great rationalization on my part, or fear of stepping out of my comfort zone. There was math, and it was this:

Age 22: $20,000 saved @ 5% real return compounding 45 years = $179,700.16 at Age 67
Age 23: $20,000 saved @ 5% real return compounding 44 years = $171,143.01 at Age 67
Age 24: $20,000 saved @ 5% real return compounding 43 years = $162,993.34 at Age 67
Age 25: $20,000 saved @ 5% real return compounding 42 years = $155,231.75 at Age 67
Age 26: $20,000 saved @ 5% real return compounding 41 years = $147,839.76 at Age 67

Total: $816,908.01

I did it, my siblings did it, nearly all my friends did it. Done saving for retirement, that's real independence in my book. Obviously I'll keep saving at least up to my employer match, but man is it a great relief.

yes.

 

[Crash Station]

Living at home at 30 represents a failure of one thing: career.

The reason most* live at home is money, right? As much as Miles wants to run around in circles about irrelevant shit, it comes down to people living at home because of money. If everyone in this thread living at home made $200k, would they live at home?

*Now there are cultural and personal reasons too, no one denies that. But let's take the most vanilla case that keeps getting thrown around here: need to live at home to save money.

If you need to live at home to save money, you fucked up. Before you ever leave college you should have secured a position to begin upon graduation. This is what internships, career centers, recruiting fairs, open houses, etc. exist for. There should never be a reason to go home because you need to look for a job. That is laughable. That means you did fuck all in college.

If you did secure a position and still need to live at home, that means you picked a career that doesn't make enough money for your area's basic lifestyle. If you live in NYC you know how much you have to make and which careers give you that option. If you chose to be a librarian making $20k, then you living at home is a result of you making poor choices. Not rising rent or the economy lol. If you live in Kansas and chose to be a librarian making $20k, you're absolutely normal because you knew that would be fine to support a life there. If you're working and living at home, you either fucked up your studies or didn't find the job that you need to make your career thrive.

If I meet a 30 year old living at home, the first thing I'd think is sick family member or their culture. Any other reason can only mean one thing: they fucked up. And that's why it's judged, not because I think they're immature or afraid of failure or play games all day. It just means they lost at the easy game of life.

This is one of the most arrogant and condescending posts I've read on GAF.

Life is a zero-sum game. If you don't get a job, someone else did, and there's a chance that someone beat you to it before you even thought to apply. Even the people with their shiny new graduate degrees are stuck working a cash register at fast food or retail. That's not always a failure of the individual, it can be a failure of the system as well. If you tell a person that's been applying to every non-shit job for 4 years and not getting any that they're "not trying hard enough", you're an asshole.

Then you got to take into account that everyone's skill levels/intelligence/etc are different. Maybe you're the guy with the 1599 on his SATs, but the people with 1600 are the ones that keep getting the jobs. Maybe you're the guy that's just shit at interviews and have been taking classes for years now to get better, putting an a ludicrous amount of effort, but when the time comes to actually do the interview, you freeze up. Same with test anxiety, no matter how much you study.

And what about the people that focus on the arts, which are known to be much more difficult to get a job in. Are they also total failures because they decided to pursue their dreams and not fields that, working in for a year or 2, would kill them inside? Should they have pursued both, working in some STEM field until they catch their big break in the arts, social life be damned (because it definitely would be if you're studying for both unless you're a genius).

To say life is easy is ludicrous, even for the most successful people out there.

I see a difference between comfortability and complacency. Comfortability might amount to something like contentedness, to feel enough is enough and that's all good. It's when complacency rolls in that things get sticky, for one become apathetic to interests, explorative efforts, and even trying anything new.

I think any problem in life between those two is a tightrope to walk on, because there's no true standard on being comfortably content and coasting along blindly, for one can always pry this from the outsider to infer either. One man's peace is another man's laziness.

I agree. Complacency is what causes us to regress, not comfort. And of course, complacency and living on your own are not mutually exclusive. It's already been acknowledged my situation is different, but I'm far more driven when I'm living at home than when I was living alone.

And of course, complacency hits the most successful people out there too. Everyone's favorite billionaire indie game developer is experiencing it pretty bad.

If somebody at my age told me that they are living at home I will laugh the shit out of them.

Then you're a judgmental douchebag and not someone with the maturity of your age.

 

[GamerJM]

Plus I can smoke weed and say Fuck in front of my dog without fear of any ramifications.

You can do this too if you have cool parents.

That being said, I don't do either of those things out of choice. Swearing IRL (at least usually) and any kind of recreational drug use (includes alcohol and anything with caffeine in it) doesn't interest me.

 

[VASPER]

Wait what? I am on a extremely tight budget and I live alone, 27 btw just go man don't be such a pussie, life get way more interesting living on your own.

 

[Wreav]

Maybe you're the guy with the 1599 on his SATs, but the people with 1600 are the ones that keep getting the jobs. Maybe you're the guy that's just shit at interviews and have been taking classes for years now to get better, putting an a ludicrous amount of effort, but when the time comes to actually do the interview, you freeze up. Same with test anxiety, no matter how much you study.

For a small percentage of people that might have mental health issues, these might be valid. For the other majority, it's just a sad list of self defeating excuses that takes the burden of ownership off of the individual and onto some imaginary "broken system".

 

[ZackieChan]

Life is a zero-sum game. If you don't get a job, someone else did, and there's a chance that someone beat you to it before you even thought to apply. Even the people with their shiny new graduate degrees are stuck working a cash register at fast food or retail. That's not always a failure of the individual, it can be a failure of the system as well. If you tell a person that's been applying to every non-shit job for 4 years and not getting any that they're "not trying hard enough", you're an asshole.





I agree. Complacency is what causes us to regress, not comfort. And of course, complacency and living on your own are not mutually exclusive. It's already been acknowledged my situation is different, but I'm far more driven when I'm living at home than when I was living alone.

And of course, complacency hits the most successful people out there too. Everyone's favorite billionaire indie game developer is experiencing it pretty bad.

If you keep trying the same thing for 4 years (applying for jobs) with no results, then you are crazy. You should have moved into a different field or created your own job by then.

For a small percentage of people that might have mental health issues, these might be valid. For the other majority, it's just a sad list of self defeating excuses that takes the burden of ownership off of the individual and onto some imaginary "broken system".

I say it in every one of these threads, but Neogaf is full of people who would prefer to blame the system than take any personal responsibility and change what they're doing to get results. It's disappointing.

 

[Crash Station]

If you keep trying the same thing for 4 years (applying for jobs) with no results, then you are crazy. You should have moved into a different field or created your own job by then.

Alright, so move into a different field. Now you're spending more years learning that trade and possibly a lot of money for classes and the same thing happens all over again. Suddenly your debt increases and you have nothing to show for it.

I'm not trying to take away agency from the individual in this situation but even without the excuse of mental illness, scenarios like this have and do arise regardless of how much effort is put in. Some people are unlucky.

But honestly, I think we need to cool it with the stigma surrounding certain non-education-required jobs. Working retail/fast food does not make you a failure.

 

[I'm an expert]

This is one of the most arrogant and condescending posts I've read on GAF.

Life is a zero-sum game. If you don't get a job, someone else did, and there's a chance that someone beat you to it before you even thought to apply. Even the people with their shiny new graduate degrees are stuck working a cash register at fast food or retail. That's not always a failure of the individual, it can be a failure of the system as well. If you tell a person that's been applying to every non-shit job for 4 years and not getting any that they're "not trying hard enough", you're an asshole.

Then you got to take into account that everyone's skill levels/intelligence/etc are different. Maybe you're the guy with the 1599 on his SATs, but the people with 1600 are the ones that keep getting the jobs. Maybe you're the guy that's just shit at interviews and have been taking classes for years now to get better, putting an a ludicrous amount of effort, but when the time comes to actually do the interview, you freeze up. Same with test anxiety, no matter how much you study.

And what about the people that focus on the arts, which are known to be much more difficult to get a job in. Are they also total failures because they decided to pursue their dreams and not fields that, working in for a year or 2, would kill them inside? Should they have pursued both, working in some STEM field until they catch their big break in the arts, social life be damned (because it definitely would be if you're studying for both unless you're a genius).

To say life is easy is ludicrous, even for the most successful people out there.

Do you know what's arrogant and condescending? People wasting time, energy, money on stupid shit like arts degrees WITHOUT being in the top 1% of skill and then expecting society to support their failure. Does the world need journalists, news directors, music producers? Sure. But it doesn't need to sustain a million wannabe 'artists.' Eventually you have to make a decision between three choices: contribute to society, make money, follow your dream. Sometimes they blend, and sometimes you have to make a tough call and see which one is for you. We all can't follow our dreams, we all can't make money, and we all can't have a positive impact on society. If you get all three, god bless you, and god bless America.

For those that make the wrong decision and end up working at Walmart while living with their parents, well, that's on them for not understanding the rules of the game of life. It's kind of like playing a moba and overextending in mid when you have no lane presence and you're a squishy. You should pull back, you shouldn't get greedy, you can't take down that tower or chase that player down. But you try it anyway. And you get merked. Same shit in life. When you realize you're not the 1600 SAT guy and your goals don't align with your skills, it's time to reevaluate and make better choices that don't hamstring you more. You don't fuckin go all in and say I'M GOING TO FINISH THIS ENGLISH DEGREE AND IT'LL ALL WORK OUT IN THE END.

Yah brah. Nice feeding. I just leveled up off you. Add another 0 to my paycheck.

 

[EatinOlives]

ITT: Millenials on a video game forum who think they have life figured out and shit on people they arbitrarily have determined haven't.

 

[Zoolader]

Anybody looking for a roommate?

 

[Wreav]

For those that make the wrong decision and end up working at Walmart while living with their parents, well, that's on them for not understanding the rules of the game of life.

While it wasn't as abysmal for us as your described scenario, my wife really wanted to be a zookeeper, so I supported her. Found out that zookeeping didn't have any upward mobility, so she went back to school and got a masters degree that would help her move up the ladder, but then life happened and we had a kid right after she graduated.

She realized that not having shared weekends with me would be awful for the family, so she bailed on zookeeping and her advanced education entirely and got a 9-5 M-F lab job, which brings her zero career fulfillment, but gives her great insurance and lots of flexibility hours wise.

What did she decided to do next? Apply for dental school, because she realized she wasn't using her innate intellect and abilities, and now we're on the road to a quarter million dollars of debt to improve our lives. This is what life is. You evaluate. You reach for goals. You pivot if the outcome isn't what you want.

What you DON'T do is sit in your mom's house and complain that you're a bad test taker, or that you would have gotten that job if you'd tied your tie differently. There's no such thing as luck. There's only hustle, and you either hustle, or you don't.

 

[I'm an expert]

While it wasn't as abysmal for us as your described scenario, my wife really wanted to be a zookeeper, so I supported her. Found out that zookeeping didn't have any upward mobility, so she went back to school and got a masters degree that would help her move up the ladder, but then life happened and we had a kid right after she graduated.

She realized that not having shared weekends with me would be awful for the family, so she bailed on zookeeping and her advanced education entirely and got a 9-5 M-F lab job, which brings her zero career fulfillment, but gives her great insurance and lots of flexibility hours wise.

What did she decided to do next? Apply for dental school, because she realized she wasn't using her innate intellect and abilities, and now we're on the road to a quarter million dollars of debt to improve our lives. This is what life is. You evaluate. You reach for goals. You pivot if the outcome isn't what you want.

What you DON'T do is sit in your mom's house and complain that you're a bad test taker, or that you would have gotten that job if you'd tied your tie differently. There's no such thing as luck. There's only hustle, and you either hustle, or you don't.

Absolutely correct. She realized what life was playing and countered it. Imagine if your wife said NO I HAVE TO BE A ZOOKEEPER. Imagine.

 

[finalflame]

While it wasn't as abysmal for us as your described scenario, my wife really wanted to be a zookeeper, so I supported her. Found out that zookeeping didn't have any upward mobility, so she went back to school and got a masters degree that would help her move up the ladder, but then life happened and we had a kid right after she graduated.

She realized that not having shared weekends with me would be awful for the family, so she bailed on zookeeping and her advanced education entirely and got a 9-5 M-F lab job, which brings her zero career fulfillment, but gives her great insurance and lots of flexibility hours wise.

What did she decided to do next? Apply for dental school, because she realized she wasn't using her innate intellect and abilities, and now we're on the road to a quarter million dollars of debt to improve our lives. This is what life is. You evaluate. You reach for goals. You pivot if the outcome isn't what you want.

What you DON'T do is sit in your mom's house and complain that you're a bad test taker, or that you would have gotten that job if you'd tied your tie differently. There's no such thing as luck. There's only hustle, and you either hustle, or you don't.

 

[ZackieChan]

Absolutely correct. She realized what life was playing and countered it. Imagine if your wife said NO I HAVE TO BE A ZOOKEEPER. Imagine.

Yep. That's what I was getting at above. I've pivoted multiple times in my life. It's fine. I didn't have the skills to hack it as a computer animator, so I went to school to be a casino dealer. 2 months, $1200. Got a decent job that spring boarded me to a much better job. While working there, I went back to school and became an attorney. Started my own firm and a couple years of struggle later I'm becoming successful. Most of the issues in here come down to a failure of imagination or correctly-placed effort.

 

[Northeastmonk]

What about if your parents ran into an emergency and you gave them money? I know I've ran into circumstances where I was approached after giving rent about how they came up short for the month. I pulled out my checkbook and wrote them a check.

Granted they could have asked me this very same question or request on the phone if I lived elsewhere, but in this case I'm paying them rent and money to help them balance their own lives.

I see the good and bad. Sure the social aspect is rough, but then again I can help them out and still sleep in a warm bed without doubling my bills. I think it's made sense of itself because I have helped them pay a few things that they probably didn't see coming.

My folks had a $1,000 plumbing bill they couldn't afford to pay and it needed some cleaning and other work done. It was totally unexpected. They were already digging into their retirement money from past emergencies, so I gave them some money from my savings, over a grand, and they just said "we won't charge you to live here for another 4 months since you did that".

I mean I got to save even more money by doing that.

 

[Euphoria14]

Well, at that point the parents could be considered enablers. Figuring out how much blame to ascribe to an enabler is tricky. There can be a lot of damned if you do, damned if you don't situations.

I absolutely agree with the enabler point.

For the good of the child sometimes it best to give them the boot and let them find their own way.

 

[xxracerxx]

Alright, so move into a different field. Now you're spending more years learning that trade and possibly a lot of money for classes and the same thing happens all over again. Suddenly your debt increases and you have nothing to show for it.

How does one get through life being afraid of the possibility of failure? Also, not all career switches require incredible debt and besides most people are always going to be learning new shit even in their current field.

 

[Crash Station]

Do you know what's arrogant and condescending? People wasting time, energy, money on stupid shit like arts degrees WITHOUT being in the top 1% of skill and then expecting society to support their failure.

No, what's arrogant and condescending is bragging about how you've never experienced failure and then immediately turning around to criticize those that do.

Does the world need journalists, news directors, music producers? Sure. But it doesn't need to sustain a million wannabe 'artists.' Eventually you have to make a decision between three choices: contribute to society, make money, follow your dream. Sometimes they blend, and sometimes you have to make a tough call and see which one is for you. We all can't follow our dreams, we all can't make money, and we all can't have a positive impact on society. If you get all three, god bless you, and god bless America.

That's pretty undermining of the hard work people put in to their craft. What about the retail-working artists that get by on Patreon and commissions while doing everything they can (not waiting) to get their lucky break, and eventually succeeding a decade or 2 later? The people that left their high-paying STEM fields and are happier doing what they love even if they're essentially living in poverty? The people that ARE all about the hustle, just not in the places that will make them a millionaire?

It's an incredibly myopic and bleak outlook on life.

For those that make the wrong decision and end up working at Walmart while living with their parents, well, that's on them for not understanding the rules of the game of life. It's kind of like playing a moba and overextending in mid when you have no lane presence and you're a squishy. You should pull back, you shouldn't get greedy, you can't take down that tower or chase that player down. But you try it anyway. And you get merked. Same shit in life. When you realize you're not the 1600 SAT guy and your goals don't align with your skills, it's time to reevaluate and make better choices that don't hamstring you more. You don't fuckin go all in and say I'M GOING TO FINISH THIS ENGLISH DEGREE AND IT'LL ALL WORK OUT IN THE END.

Yah brah. Nice feeding. I just leveled up off you. Add another 0 to my paycheck.

This really does read like something by someone with no empathy in a "fuck you, got mine" way. But hey, I guess life rewards those people. This is a country for sociopaths after all.

 

[Wreav]

This really does read like something by someone with no empathy in a "fuck you, got mine" way. But hey, I guess life rewards those people.

Understanding how the world works doesn't make you an non-empathetic sociopath. Pragmatism is why these people are successful.

 

[I'm an expert]

No, what's arrogant and condescending is bragging about how you've never experienced failure and then immediately turning around to criticize those that do.



That's pretty undermining of the hard work people put in to their craft. What about the retail-working artists that get by on Patreon and commissions while doing everything they can (not waiting) to get their lucky break, and eventually succeeding a decade or 2 later? The people that left their high-paying STEM fields and are happier doing what they love even if they're essentially living in poverty? The people that ARE all about the hustle, just not in the places that will make them a millionaire?

It's an incredibly myopic and bleak outlook on life.



This really does read like something by someone with no empathy in a "fuck you, got mine" way. But hey, I guess life rewards those people. This is a country for sociopaths after all.

You're drinking the Bernie koolaid my friend. What you describe doesn't work in the actual reality we live in, especially with only one chance at life. It's not fuck you, got mine. It's fuck the system, make sure I get mine.

 

[Crash Station]

Understanding how the world works doesn't make you an non-empathetic sociopath. Pragmatism is why these people are successful.

You can be pragmatic without being a jerk about it. No, not everyone's going to be successful in the field they want, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try, and continuing to try after everyone else has given up is an admirable trait. Nothing wrong with finally succeeding in that field in your 30s, 40s or even 50s provided you have the financial and emotional means to make it that long. There's a difference between just surviving and being fulfilled.

You're drinking the Bernie koolaid my friend. What you describe doesn't work in the actual reality we live in, especially with only one chance at life. It's not fuck you, got mine. It's fuck the system, make sure I get mine.

I'm voting for Hillary.

 

[Joelstinton14]

Living at home at 30 represents a failure of one thing: career.

The reason most* live at home is money, right? As much as Miles wants to run around in circles about irrelevant shit, it comes down to people living at home because of money. If everyone in this thread living at home made $200k, would they live at home?

*Now there are cultural and personal reasons too, no one denies that. But let's take the most vanilla case that keeps getting thrown around here: need to live at home to save money.

If you need to live at home to save money, you fucked up. Before you ever leave college you should have secured a position to begin upon graduation. This is what internships, career centers, recruiting fairs, open houses, etc. exist for. There should never be a reason to go home because you need to look for a job. That is laughable. That means you did fuck all in college.

If you did secure a position and still need to live at home, that means you picked a career that doesn't make enough money for your area's basic lifestyle. If you live in NYC you know how much you have to make and which careers give you that option. If you chose to be a librarian making $20k, then you living at home is a result of you making poor choices. Not rising rent or the economy lol. If you live in Kansas and chose to be a librarian making $20k, you're absolutely normal because you knew that would be fine to support a life there. If you're working and living at home, you either fucked up your studies or didn't find the job that you need to make your career thrive.

If I meet a 30 year old living at home, the first thing I'd think is sick family member or their culture. Any other reason can only mean one thing: they fucked up. And that's why it's judged, not because I think they're immature or afraid of failure or play games all day. It just means they lost at the easy game of life.

The problem in the UK is wages and actual living costs are massively out of sync.

Average house prices are around 9 % times of local salaries. In London that is high as 25%.

But even in the poorer areas, minimum wage will not allow you to rent alone, there is not a chance of that happening without a massive income of benefits alongside your wage. Flat sharing is possible but then you won't be able to save money. So you are stuck renting and can barely contribute to the security of your own retirement. So the system in the UK is broken in that sense. So you could be a librarian in any part of the country and not be able to afford to live anywhere.

The problem is, that also applies to teachers, nurses, police officers etc. Roles that are vital in our society.

People who have to move back home at not failures. Most people work really hard but even that is not enough. A quarter of 20-34 years old are having to move back home. That suggests to me that is a problem in the system, rather than just a result of individualism.

Although i do agree slightly about your point on degrees, however, here in the uk, i think it is more to do with that degrees are now an extension of our education system rather than a place to specialise in a study. Almost everyone between the age of 18-34 as one.

But your assertion that Art degrees are worthless is missing the mark too, they're not just about painting or taking photos, you learn much more than that, analytical skills, writing, marketing, even economics. And some places value that creative spark that can lift their own company above others, seeing things from a different angle. Where i work the management try to tap into that, by using their employees skills, whether they are art students, or ex paramedics or nurses.

And what if you don't go to uni? Want to be a plumber? Electrician? Builder? Employees use internships and apprenticeships so they can pay less. So even when you leave home at 18, or finish school, you are not really in a position to move out.

I have spent most of my twenties living away from home. Made some mistakes here and there ( growing up eh), had to move back, luckily i have nice parents, but it is wrong to assert that anyone in mine or similar positions are total failures and lost at the easy game of life. Life is not easy.

And frankly, if more people were less interested in having to make 80k by Age X, having said car by Year X with a trophy wife it be a better place. Not everyone is driven by the same things. Some people may want a simpler life, but even attaining that is difficult.

 

[Sumio Mondo]

To be fair, we also fuck up by having the social idea that you need to have a solid floor plan at 18 and need to follow the blueprint to a tee. This is why I consider the "out on your own 18, no buts about it" to be absolutely dangerous in terms of an idea to project onto others, especially in a country where its own citizens can't even legally drink yet.

Speaking of me, I first went to college 8 years ago, and have since changed my vocation at least three times. I changed because as I went on in life, I realized what I was chasing was either done for shallow reasons, or that I wanted to do something with more meaning. I started in the cozy "do whatever for money' idea, which brought me into the tech sector, but I was miserable and suicidal from it. I then shifted to the generic "person of service to aid suffering" idea, and juggled between being a social worker, a nurse, and now someone interested in self-inquiry, and in that case I essentially ran in a circle, looking for practicality and not the real meat of why I was interested in service in the first place. Of course, there are obstacles there - self-inquiry is essentially selling water by the river, to take a Zen adage, so money is almost considered optional in such a discipline; very bad if you live in America, where it matters above all life - but I wouldn't dare replace it for a 9-5 in the world. I would choose death over that, but that perhaps speaks how seriously I take and value it.

I don't let any of that be called up as "failure" though, for you can only act and be what you are and where you are, and where you are now is merely based on previous factors. I think a core problem for many others that you alluded to with automation is that even if they ignored what they wanted to do and became suckers for the game of practicality, there is nothing saying they can have or sustain that. That too will be hitting the generation in question very hard in time, as they age and realize games of retirement and career sustainability are in as much question as the climate of this earth will be.

It sometimes takes people a long time to decide what they want to be in life. Some people go through life never knowing. It's all life experiences at the end of the day. The world is forever changing and jobs in certain sectors will certainly be no more in some time into the future, who can say when. After the death of the industrial sector here in the UK in the 80s, things changed a lot and people had to get to grips with changing their careers. I know blokes who went from the steelworks industry to work in I.T. in the 90s and people who went from being a well paid plastic technician to an office body who types things into a database all day, every day. These things too will change into the future where things become more automated. We've already seen how there's now automated check outs at supermarkets and less shopping tills, people relying more and more on buying online and there soon won't be much of any real retail presence left at this rate, so retail jobs will go down, warehouse jobs/website developer/designer jobs will go up. It's a rapidly changing world we live in now, technology is the sector to be in now, imo. Some of these uni people should choose their careers wisely, at least, until they realise what they want to do in life. I have agree with those that saying uni people who come out not being able to "get a job" should never have gone to get a phd in Art when it's such a niche market. The creative industries are stocked full of dreams waiting to be burned down as it is. People want "fun jobs" but don't like the grunt work that comes after education. I know a guy who works in I.T. who took a frigging Law degree and he is without a doubt one of the dumbest people I have ever met.

 

[M52B28]

While it wasn't as abysmal for us as your described scenario, my wife really wanted to be a zookeeper, so I supported her. Found out that zookeeping didn't have any upward mobility, so she went back to school and got a masters degree that would help her move up the ladder, but then life happened and we had a kid right after she graduated.

She realized that not having shared weekends with me would be awful for the family, so she bailed on zookeeping and her advanced education entirely and got a 9-5 M-F lab job, which brings her zero career fulfillment, but gives her great insurance and lots of flexibility hours wise.

What did she decided to do next? Apply for dental school, because she realized she wasn't using her innate intellect and abilities, and now we're on the road to a quarter million dollars of debt to improve our lives. This is what life is. You evaluate. You reach for goals. You pivot if the outcome isn't what you want.

What you DON'T do is sit in your mom's house and complain that you're a bad test taker, or that you would have gotten that job if you'd tied your tie differently. There's no such thing as luck. There's only hustle, and you either hustle, or you don't.

Though this reads really bootstrap-ish, it's absolute truth.

Sometimes, you can't just sit around and complain about how you got the short end of the stick. You have to put yourself in uncomfortable positions to find out where you will end up in your life.

The shit I'm going through right now isn't all that great, but I'm lining things up as it goes. I'm 20, going to community college in one of the most expensive places in the country and I'm living at my grandmother's apartment. Other than a few things we share, I'm not exactly dependent on my parents or my grandmother. For the record, my grandmother is not a nice person AT ALL.

Sometimes, propelling yourself into an uncomfortable position to learn about yourself, your motivations, etc is the best thing you can do to yourself.

After moving out of my parents house and back to a place where I have no real experience with besides vacation and living there for a few years when I was younger, I have learned so much about myself and I've done so much for myself.

I got a job for the first time right when I moved, lost 40lbs in the months of living here, met some amazing people, went on awesome trips, launched a project, made amazing art. In addition, I've gotten a plethora of interviews and job offerings and more. Now, that isn't to say that it's all fun and games. I've struggled immensely, but the struggle is worth the other experiences I've had.

I'm seriously a changed person. Despite being pretty well known in school, I had no real people skills. Now, I'm so good with people that I feel like others are awkward around me.

Making a move no matter what is better than sitting around.