Look guys, I live in Seattle, WA. I have the luxury of being able to write in Sanders. My state will go blue either way. Am I advocating other people do the same? No. I will tell you right now I would much rather have Clinton than Trump. Trump terrifies me, and I'm not sure she can win. Also for me, personally, I have had friends and family taken from me in the Iraq war. You know, the one she voted for. So I cannot, in good conscience, vote for her on that alone.
2 Super 2 Tuesday |OT| I'm Really Feeling (The Bern) (3/15, 3/22, 3/26 Contests)
- Thread starter ivysaur12
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The Lamonster
Member
The Iraq war vote was 13 years ago. And the people sent over there signed up to be a part of the military. It's not like they were drafted, or murdered by the government. Plenty of good people voted for that war. It was a shitty time. Maybe you were too young to remember or feel the gravity of the situation during that time. It sucks that Clinton voted for it. I wouldn't have. But she's explained how it was a mistake. It's not like she said she has no regrets over it.
Also, you call it "luxury" to write in Sanders, but I call it privilege. It must be nice to waste your vote without being concerned about a future Supreme Court wiping out homosexuals' permission to get married, or raped women's permission to have abortions, etc etc etc. It's what I meant by "minorities and underprivileged be damned." Vote for who you want, I'm just asking you to not be selfish about it.
I sure hope you plan on voting down ballot or else I don't want to hear any of this Iraq War stuff. Most people know people who have been or have been affected by Iraq, you're not unique in that respect. Wasting votes is nearly as bad.
This purity inquisition hes created is really disgusting. Only true liberals are fit to run the country now.
Kite
Member
Exactly.. why does anyone think they give any fucks about the Democrat Party when many of them aren't traditional Democrats? Bernie has gathered an interesting coalition of third party types and fringe progressives. This isn't Obama vs Hillary where their supporters are from the same party and will eventually reconcile.
If it were anyone but Trump I'd be worried they'd play spoiler.
It's a form of religious self-flagellation I'd guess..
shortsFortallPeople
Banned
I wasn't talking about the FL vote in particular, just the overall vote. Was Gore a terrific candidate?
I mean he was okay
Was he better than Bush?
He sure as hell was
And while you can argue that the Supreme Court was the real reason W got elected, had Gore just had a few more votes not split by Nader running as a third party then we could've been spared the tragedy that was Bush's 8 long years in office. The fault doesn't directly lie with them but it certainty didn't help matters
The Lamonster
Member
Unfortunately I still think it's going to be Kasich.
shoplifter
Member
Gore couldn't even win Tennessee. You know, his own state. Sure though, go ahead and blame Nader voters.
\/\/ I'm not staying home, and I certainly won't be voting Trump. I'll be voting Green.
shortsFortallPeople
Banned
i didn't put it all on them, i said it didn't help matters. I also noted that Gore wasn't exactly killing it, either.
But you don't see the parallels with Hillary, who is also not exactly killing it, having to compete with either Sanders running or Sander's base choosing not to vote? And, if you're willing to grant me that there are some parallels there, the fact that we had to eat Bush for 8 years again, not solely because of them, but in some small part because of how they voted?
or are we playing some sort of obtuse game of obtuseness that I wasn't aware of?
balladofwindfishes
Member
The man whose only won one primary, and who has no actual way of earning enough delegates, nor even enough states to be in the pool for a brokered convention without a rule change?
Besides, Trump's already sowing the seeds to run third party. He just mentioned yesterday that he wouldn't be responsible for anything that happens if his fans start to riot if the GOP plans anything screwy.
I have a feeling even Cruz would go nuclear if they tried pulling anything (because picking Kasich over him would screw him as well). It would cost him nothing to tell his delegates to all move to Trump, instantly winning Trump the nomination.
Flying Toaster
Member
shoplifter
Member
The far left doesn't *want* to vote for the dems. They're constantly taken for granted, and are tired of it. If they want those votes, they should be doing more to appeal to that bloc of the electorate. I believe Bernie when he says he won't run, but I don't know that the voters will all go with him, especially the far left supporters who would otherwise be supporting the greens/progressives and other far left parties and saw Sanders as a way to get some of their favored policies some spotlight.
RustyNails
Member
I think her vote on Iraq was a total mistake. But bear in mind that Joe Biden and John Kerry also voted for Iraq war: the two most elder democratic statesmen in America. Kerry has accomplished so much, from securing Iran nuclear deal to saving Afghan government on the brink of collapse, staring into the eyes of another civil war (Ghani and Abdullah both claimed victory in elections). Biden has been with Obama inside the situation room multiple times. What I'm saying is that they all got the Iraq vote wrong, but since then have admitted it was a mistake. Hillary moreso. Her argument was that Hans Blix requested the war authorization in order to convince the Baath government that America will invade if they dont allow the inspectors in. And then you see one of the most respected generals in military Colin Powell arguing for the same in UN. Needless to say, Dick Cheney overtook the reins and started beating the wardrums instantly.
I dont completely agree with her reasoning, as she's a politician and should have known better to trust a neohawk Republican cabinet with authority to invade an oil rich country. But you can see there was more to it than simply Hillary, Biden, Kerry voting for the war and then rubbing their hands with glee. I think her saying it was a mistake flat out makes me trust her, rather than saying silly things like John Kerry did in 2004.
It would take a hell of a lot of finagling at the convention to make that work. Plus Trump and Cruz supporters both would go ballistic
Flying Toaster
Member
I agree but at the same time the far left needs to take plays from the far rights playbook and tackle those midterm elections.
Don't not vote or throw away a vote because You don't like Clinton... More is at stake than a dream at this point.
DietRob
i've been begging for over 5 years.
I've heard something similar before. Yes, it was 2009 and it was the far right forming up the tea party that has systematically destroyed the GOP before our very eyes.
I'm sure that was a one off and the Dems would be A-OK with a split within our party.
BrutishMrFish
Member
That's understandable, but why argue that releasing the transcripts would make you more likely to vote for her if your mind is already made up?
It shows why she's not doing it, though. Any little quote could harm her chances at winning the GE, and there's really nothing to gain when the people who still care about the transcripts or the emails that much probably weren't going to start trusting her if she released them anyway.
Kite
Member
I really hope not, Kasich is the only Republican I'd be worried about in a GE.
All this talk about wasting my vote. Clinton hasn't earned it yet for a lot of people. And, correct me if I'm wrong, she does worse against all the Republican nominees in the polls. Clinton supporters know it too. That's why you come at me insinuating that I am against woman's rights or marriage equality because I'm writing in Sanders. Really? C'mon man. And of course you go to the tried and true " Maybe you were too young to remember" schtick. I'm not. I remember just fine.
Sure, they should vote that way if they have no desire to actually further their agenda or have little understanding of how progress is made in this country. Voting for small parties makes sense in proportional parliamentary systems, it's essentially pointless in our system.
If you actually want to advocate for smaller parties you should be working to get them elected as county commissioners, city council members and mayors and not the Presidency where there is zero chance of it actually happening.
I just think you're against making progress if you're so insistent on throwing your vote in the trash.
shoplifter
Member
Many of us don't look at it as 'throwing your vote away.'
I actually agree with this, and it's something that the fringe parties on both sides of the coin have done a very poor job at.
\/\/\/ 'vote for a winner or don't vote at all.' Gore should have been a better candidate.
Well, you are wrong then. If only a very very small percentage of Nader voters in Florida instead voted Gore we wild never had Bush in the White House. Never had the Iraq War.
Liberal third party voters are proxy votes for the Republican Party in how our system works and that is not changing any time soon.
Nader voters, especially in Florida, have blood on their hands of the dead due to the Iraq War just as much as those who voted Bush. They both were equal participants in allowing it to happen.
I believe it would greatly help her chances with people that feel similar to me. And I hear you about people will look for any little thing to blast her about. But, I still think it's the best move for her to just get it over with and off people's minds. The sooner the better.
The way I see it, if you can't bring yourself to vote against someone who: launched his campaign suggesting people, including my father, are rapists and drug dealers, wants to torture and kill families of terrorists, is encouraging violence at his rallies, then you are a piece of shit. You might be racists, you might be privileged, I don't care, if you proudly advertise that you can't bring yourself to vote against that person and that party, you are a terrible person. My children, who share the same last name as my father are growing up in a country where school children chant "build a wall" to intimidate other kids. And it comes from someone that you can't even bring yourself to vote against.
Garbage.
Garbage.
The Lamonster
Member
Because saying stuff like [bolded] is something a young person would say; someone who doesn't have a lot of experience following American politics. You know why Sanders is doing better in GE matchups? Because the right has never attacked him. You think the polls will look that good after the GOP machine puts a target on him? Clinton, on the other hand, has been a GOP scapegoat/punching bag since the 90s.
Flying Toaster
Member
Then start working at the local levels...
I'm curious how his supporters will react if/when Bernie throws his full endorsement behind Clinton, combined with a plea to stay involved in the political system and preserve the dream that brought so much support to his campaign by going out to vote for her in November.
Will they view it as a betrayal? Would Bernie become a shill?
Will they view it as a betrayal? Would Bernie become a shill?
EatinOlives
Member
You do know Senator Sanders had repeatedly said that we should all vote for the Democrat nominee regardless of who it is, right?
You claim to really listen to Sanders on everything...except for this one thing...
I mean, people can attempt to frame their actions in ways to justify it to themselves but the end result is essentially throwing away your vote. What do you actually hope to achieve by writing in Bernie? How does that in anyway further the agenda he is fighting for?
shoplifter
Member
^^ I'm voting green, just like I have the last three elections. I want them to get federal matching funds, which would enable them to spread the platform to a much wider audience. I'd encourage other people to do the same if they don't support Senator Clinton.
I'd look at it as the cost of him participating in the dnc primary.
I'd look at it as the cost of him participating in the dnc primary.
Doesn't really matter how you look at it, that's what you're doing. The Dems only worry about how to get more moderates to vote Democrat instead of Republican, not how to convince third party or write-in voters
If you don't vote for the candidate out of the two major ones that most closely represents your interests, you are wasting your vote, and helping the candidate who least represents your interests.
benicillin
Banned
The vast vast vast majority of people who vote for Bernie would vote for Hillary once he endorsed her, anyone telling you otherwise is just fear mongering on the Internet.
RustyNails
Member
If you go vote for Rosie O'Donnel or Jill Stein or whoever the big fat green party loser is, you are throwing your vote away essentially, and George W Bush (maybe soon to be President Trump) thank you. Listen to your own guy Bernie Sanders about what he's been saying for 10 years and now in his election speeches: the more people vote, the better we (we as in anti-GOP) do better. There's a reason why GOP wants to make voting harder and exclude as many people from voter rolls as possible. They do better when less people vote.
Byakuya769
Member
Handsome, right?
FunkyMunkey
Banned
that poll i believe you're referencing, the one splashed all over sander's facebook/instagram feed, does not take into account the fact that he has barely been attacked or targeted by the left or right. clinton has been literally vetted through and through her entire career. all signs point to her performing better in a face-off versus trump than sanders, whether you look at debate performances, or trust in the concept of socialism among the general public below that of almost any other descriptor (muslim, atheist, etc).
you're buying into the rhetoric
shoplifter
Member
Cool, more condescension from HillGAF.
Sorry, I'm on the 'kill it with fire' bandwagon.
Sorry, I'm on the 'kill it with fire' bandwagon.
I think it's a bit strange to complain that the 'far left' has their vote taken for granted, when it seems simply to me that their votes aren't being taken for granted as much as the AA vote or the Hispanic vote. Before we have even addressed problems threatening minorities (real problems that are costing them lives and livelihoods), you want to complain that the idealists are being taken for granted?
The reason Bernie is losing is because he hasn't done more to appeal to a voting bloc other than the far left. Hillary isn't taking the far left voting bloc for granted, she simply opted to build a coalition of AA/Hispanic/female/older voting blocs. Which is winning the primary, and will likely win the general. If the far left vote can't win Bernie a primary, what hope does it have of winning the general? By expecting the AA/Hispanic blocs to turn out for him just by the sheer nature of the D next to his name (now), aka being taken for granted?
I think it's probably just that Bernie still hasn't dropped out. No reason to expect everybody to be moving to Hillary just because Bernie is mathematically behind the eight ball, he's always been there.
I think that Sanders is probably thinking hard right now about how long to continue the campaign. When he eventually quits and endorses Hillary, I expect the conversation to be a little better. People will have some closure then, if nothing else.
Hey Hillgaf I just got a memo from the Hilldawg secret underground bunker saying the following:
"Bernie supporters (of whom there are many on the internet) seem to be super sensitive about their candidate eating shit on Tuesday. While we support the right of everyone to vote for their own candidate, we also feel like they should vote in this historic election against the idea of American fascism, isolationism, and xenophobia. In this regard, considering how sensitive they are, please treat them nicer and avoid using logical arguments when talking to them."
Sorry guys, turns out we have to be nicer to Bernie fans going forward.
"Bernie supporters (of whom there are many on the internet) seem to be super sensitive about their candidate eating shit on Tuesday. While we support the right of everyone to vote for their own candidate, we also feel like they should vote in this historic election against the idea of American fascism, isolationism, and xenophobia. In this regard, considering how sensitive they are, please treat them nicer and avoid using logical arguments when talking to them."
Sorry guys, turns out we have to be nicer to Bernie fans going forward.
"being taken for granted" just means that you put your fragile little ego ahead of actually advancing the ideology you claim to believe in and immediately helping and protecting those most vulnerable. imo condescension is warranted when your actions actively thwart your own claimed political goals because, frankly, I couldn't care less who's being condescending to who (and there's been plenty of it going around on both sides) -- if politics is about making your vote feel "valued," then your politics are more narcissism than ideologically based (let alone morally driven) anyways.
The Lamonster
Member
This "weak candidate" bullshit.
You're responsible for how you vote. We restrict voting to people 18 and over for a reason: you're supposed to be an adult about it. That is supposed to mean that you make decisions based on an informed, rational, and pragmatic basis. That you understand the nation is a large and diverse union, not something where you get to have everything you want all the time because you believe you have the ideological high ground.
If you want to vote like a child and devalue the entire integrity of the process feel free. The GOP has been coaching people to do exactly that for decades. But don't act like it's the goddamn candidate's fault because you can't tell your ass from a hole in the ground. That's on you, you get to own that when and if shit goes to hell.
shoplifter
Member
^^^ the RNC/DNC have done enough to devalue the process already by taking over the debates via the CPD.
If Trump is actually as terrible and oppressive as people say he will be, he's going to have some articles of impeachment slapped against him pretty fucking quickly. Even the GOP will be chomping at the bit to do it.
If Trump is actually as terrible and oppressive as people say he will be, he's going to have some articles of impeachment slapped against him pretty fucking quickly. Even the GOP will be chomping at the bit to do it.
Maybe better not to risk it then ya?
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