Batman v Superman Spoiler Thread: Don't believe everything you read, Son

Status
Not open for further replies.
Oh yeah I guess that's true I just saw the body on what looked like an autopsy table(there's definitely a proper name I don't know) and I just figured it was true.
 
Rydeen said:
He was killed by Luthor's hired goons (notice they were a series of Polaroids just like the ones Luthor showed Superman of Martha?), same way Bruce was being played by Luthor by denying the disabled guy his checks. But the movie didn't explain it very well, at all.

That was a huge issue I had, too: Batman and Superman don't meet up, compare notes, and realize they're both being played like a fiddle by Luthor. That was a crucial beat the movie really needed.
Click to expand...
I like this explanation a lot, though ultimately I think I wish the branding was purely a Luthor creation, as was speculated in the past.

The brandings aren't even done in a particularly noticeable or inconcealable location either, so what is their function exactly? They're certainly a far cry from the swastika carvings in Inglourious Basterds
 
HammerFace said:
Wasn't what Clark received in the envelope at the daily planet pictures of a dude that was killed because of the branding?
Click to expand...
Rydeen said:
He was killed by Luthor's hired goons (notice they were a series of Polaroids just like the ones Luthor showed Superman of Martha?), same way Bruce was being played by Luthor by denying the disabled guy his checks. But the movie didn't explain it very well, at all.

That was a huge issue I had, too: Batman and Superman don't meet up, compare notes, and realize they're both being played like a fiddle by Luthor. That was a crucial beat the movie really needed.
Click to expand...
That's how I took it too. Definitely agree with your other thoughts too, Rydeen.
 
Rydeen said:
He was killed by Luthor's hired goons (notice they were a series of Polaroids just like the ones Luthor showed Superman of Martha?), same way Bruce was being played by Luthor by denying the disabled guy his checks. But the movie didn't explain it very well, at all.

That was a huge issue I had, too: Batman and Superman don't meet up, compare notes, and realize they're both being played like a fiddle by Luthor. That was a crucial beat the movie really needed.
Click to expand...

The point was that Bats and Supes distrust each other already, so why would they talk first? "Hey, asshole, I'm going to kill you because we're mortal enemies but first, can I just check I haven't misunderstood something?"
 
munchie64 said:
That's how I took it too. Definitely agree with your other thoughts too, Rydeen.
Click to expand...
The movie was missing huge plot/character beats like that through the whole thing. It felt like there was another scene between talking at Lex's party and the scene at the docks that was completely gone.
 
Rydeen said:
He was killed by Luthor's hired goons (notice they were a series of Polaroids just like the ones Luthor showed Superman of Martha?), same way Bruce was being played by Luthor by denying the disabled guy his checks. But the movie didn't explain it very well, at all.

That was a huge issue I had, too: Batman and Superman don't meet up, compare notes, and realize they're both being played like a fiddle by Luthor. That was a crucial beat the movie really needed.
Click to expand...

Why would they? Superman basically threatened Batman and told him he's in retirement. They don't like each other. Batman blames Superman for the death of many people. As for Superman, he doesn't view Batman as a good guy.
 
Pandora012 said:
Why would they? Superman basically threatened Batman and told him he's in retirement. They don't like each other. Batman blames Superman for the death of many people. As for Superman, he doesn't view Batman as a good guy.
Click to expand...
Like I said, something was lost in editing, like it would've happened somewhere between the Washington explosion and the fight. There was a piece of the movie that was missing. Snyder's already gone on record that there's a 3+ hour cut on the blu ray, and it would not surprise !e if it's all character beats.

Also, can they please stop killing Superman's supporting cast? They killed Professor Hamilton (off-screen) in Man of Steel, they killed maybe Jimmy at the beginning of this, and they killed Mercy in the Washington scene. I'll be amazed if Perry and Lois survive the next movie at this rate.
 
I'm still salty about Dick not even being mentioned.

Like you couldn't even get Jeremy Irons to give a token "Master Dick called for you again, sir, he's very worried".
 
Frozenprince said:
I'm still salty about Dick not even being mentioned.

Like you couldn't even get Jeremy Irons to give a token "Master Dick called for you again, sir, he's very worried".
Click to expand...
Thankfully they didn't mention him because he could've been the Dead Robin and not Jason Todd or whoever. Hoping we get him as Nightwing in the solo Batman movie.

That's the one positive I did take away from this, I think Ben Affleck's going to do a decent job with the Batman solo outing he gets to direct. His back and forth with Alfred was pretty good.
 
Frozenprince said:
I'm still salty about Dick not even being mentioned.

Like you couldn't even get Jeremy Irons to give a token "Master Dick called for you again, sir, he's very worried".
Click to expand...
Eh,
Dick could still be in the Bruce "hating" phase or even the undercover spy phase which both are fine without mention.

I kinda feel like any Dick, Jason and Barbara stuff was completely lifted for the R-rated version. Especially if it was remotely tied together.
 
Razgriz-Specter said:
Eh,
Dick could still be in the Bruce "hating" phase or even the undercover spy phase which both are fine without mention.

I kinda feel like any Dick, Jason and Barbara studd was completely lifted for the R-rated version.
Click to expand...

I mean I get it even in the comics, as mentioned, it took Tim forcing him to get them to make nice because they're father and son. But you could at least use Dick as a way to humanize and bring his pain to the front, to showcase that Jason being killed had a profound a deep impact on him. That even the son that left to break off from his shadow and at this point "abandoned" him can feel it and wants to help.

IDK I just think they handled that aspect poorly.
 
By the end of the film, the last thing I wanted was for them to shoehorn in another character. Don't care about Robin at that stage.
 
Pandora012 said:
Ehh I didn't mind Doomsday, since his whole thing is him coming back stronger and stronger. (I hope I'm remembering the right guy.) So I imagine he is going to be a bigger threat later on. As for superman's "death", I think it was necessary for this story. The people in this universe probably would never have accepted him if he didn't make that sacrifice. That and it seems like it went towards helping Bruce with his redemption. (Though not sure if that's the correct word)
Click to expand...

It's way too soon to do a death of superman storyline, I think. It reminds me of TDKRises when you basically had it implied that Batman came for the first movie, and then retired just after the second. He was batman for like a year or two then hung up the cowl for like 8. Like they were trying to condense too many aspects of the long running story into a very compressed amount of time in the film-world. But you have to earn a lot of those story lines.

Doomsday himself I thought just added an extra layer of action scenes the film didn't require, the Dark Knight Returns style battle at the end followed by the Batman action scene were quite sufficient imo and the movie was already too long and too filled with action. If you cut out the dream sequences you could save some time and reduce the action but then it would be extremely rear-loaded. As meh as they were they did help balance things out a bit on that front.

Idk.
 
Jack Remington said:
Pretty sure it's early on in TDK Returns where Bruce is just coming out of retirement, is stalking some goon in the shadows, and says something like, "There are eight different moves I can use on him from this position. Five of them cripple. Three of them kill." Not the exact quote, but Batman had totally killed people,by that point in the Miller story.
Click to expand...

Miller isn't Batman gospel. He's written 4 famous Batman stories, two of which are terrible and two are loved. Shockingly enough the more down to earth two with the "less violent" Batman are his most loved.
 
Razgriz-Specter said:
Man can you imagine the reactions to that movie if the 3 most speculated rumours thing were true.

Eastwood = Dick Grayson
Joker = Jason Todd
And a secret Deathstroke role.
Click to expand...

Okay the whole "Jason is the Joker" thing is stupid as hell.

But man if they close on his last scene where it's him and Dick and you just hear him yell "JASON!".

Bruh.
 
Frozenprince said:
Okay the whole "Jason is the Joker" thing is stupid as hell.

But man if they close on his last scene where it's him and Dick and you just hear him yell "JASON!".

Bruh.
Click to expand...

It is stupid, but it works as a good twist for that as a one off movie
(but ruins Jason and Red Hood imo.)

Would explain how Joker isn't dead in this universe as well
 
ok guys, was the resolution between batman and superman realistic? just because they have the same mothers first name, now they are on good turns. how does that make batman see superman in a better light?
 
Blunoise said:
ok guys, was the resolution between batman and superman realistic? just because they have the same mothers first name, now they are on good turns. how does that make batman see superman in a better light?
Click to expand...

None of the character motivations worked for me, like at all.

That was egregious, as was Lex's plotting.
 
Razgriz-Specter said:
It is stupid, but it works as a good twist for that as a one off movie
(but ruins Jason and Red Hood imo.)

Would explain how Joker isn't dead in this universe as well
Click to expand...

I suppose you could also use it as his justification to why he kills for most of BvS (assuming he straight up murdered OG Joker).

It's dumb, but I could see Johns and Affleck making something good out of it if they had too.
 
I think this movie is an indication that Batman is DC's only confident hope in the future of their cinematic universe.

If it weren't for Affleck's Batman, I would honestly hate this movie.

Wonder Woman just isn't in it enough to make any confident assumptions about the future of these movies.
 
Blunoise said:
ok guys, was the resolution between batman and superman realistic? just because they have the same mothers first name, now they are on good turns. how does that make batman see superman in a better light?
Click to expand...
Nope, they were at each other's throats, and then right before the kill, they are all like 'holy shit, our mothers have the same name, let's be bffs!'

I'm not even joking.
 
Hearing Martha made Batman stop and listen, but it wasn't the reason he didn't finish off Superman. He realized he was being played by Luthor. I didn't think audiences needed this much exposition, but I think it would have went a long way here.

I don't know where you're getting the bff from (unless you're taking the "Are you a friend of my sons?" a bit too litterally). Bruce ended up admiring Superman because of his sacrifice.
 
GhaleonEB said:
So may strange editing choices. Doomsday is wreaking shit, we get some momentum moving to the climax, and it's all put on hold so Wonder Woman can read her email from Bruce and watch preview trailers of Justice League.

Lois picks up a handful of dirt at Superman's tiny funeral, with Bruce standing there. Cut to Lex getting his head shaved, then to Bruce's weird confrontation with him in prison. Now cut back to the funeral with Lois still holding that dirt from several minutes before. The hell?

Fishburne does his "click his heels together and go to Kansas" line, and any half decent director would cut to Superman in Kansas. But instead it's Lois out in the rain (IIRC?). And then like, two scenes later we cut to Superman in Kansas. Just cut there after the line! It would have been funny and connected the scenes. Instead we get some totally unrelated scenes from different parts of the plot, and then go there when the reference is long past.

The entire movie plays out like this.
Click to expand...

Very disjointed. It's a fuckin MESS.
 
For me, this is the Batman and Robin of the 21st century. Something so utterly appalling that it kills any interest I used to have in the franchises and character depicted in the film.

Anth0ny said:
So... you still with me after 3500 words? What did you all think? I'm not crazy, right?

Right?

2jaH2l3.gif
Click to expand...

More effort went into your post than into the movie's script.
 
GhaleonEB said:
So may strange editing choices. Doomsday is wreaking shit, we get some momentum moving to the climax, and it's all put on hold so Wonder Woman can read her email from Bruce and watch preview trailers of Justice League.

Lois picks up a handful of dirt at Superman's tiny funeral, with Bruce standing there. Cut to Lex getting his head shaved, then to Bruce's weird confrontation with him in prison. Now cut back to the funeral with Lois still holding that dirt from several minutes before. The hell?

Fishburne does his "click his heels together and go to Kansas" line, and any half decent director would cut to Superman in Kansas. But instead it's Lois out in the rain (IIRC?). And then like, two scenes later we cut to Superman in Kansas. Just cut there after the line! It would have been funny and connected the scenes. Instead we get some totally unrelated scenes from different parts of the plot, and then go there when the reference is long past.

The entire movie plays out like this.
Click to expand...

I agree with you on the Kansas line, that was badly edited. The other two however don't play out as you put it. Doomsday isn't wrecking anything when she reads the email, only the power surges from the ship are happening.

The dirt thing isn't what you paint it to be. We see Lois picking up the dirt, Bruce has his conversation with Diana and ends with 'just a feeling' -cut- to a flashback where Batman visits Luthor in prison and we see where his feeling is coming from -cut- to Bruce leaving the cementary and Lois throwing the dirt on the chest.

Yes, there is some bad editing in this film but overall it gets the job done with how many elements this film tries to juggle.
 
Veelk said:
Okay, I just saw it. And....well....

First, let me say that one positive thing that came out of RT's score is that my expectations were set so absymally low that I probably enjoyed it more than if I went in blind. There were a handful of parts that I really really liked, a lot of stuff I didn't, but I don't want to analyze the movie bit to bit right now. It's late and honestly, I feel this is going to be buried in the landslide of people posting their own opinions. So I want to talk about the one thing I think is really important, and why I think the review scores are so low.

The basic thesis of this movie is fear and paranoia. When I'm thinking back on the movie, it's the motivation behind every active character's plotting. Well, mostly. Lex's motivation is just a really stupid hate fest, but I guess you could interpret that as a different kind of fear. But Batman is the star of the show, and he doesn't really have a strong reason to want to fight superman in the end. He's just afraid of Superman. He has nightmares about possible futures (which are implied to be alternate earths or something), and....shit, it really is as simple as that. It's present in the general populous as well of course. People have the same general fear. Superman is powerful, therefore must be evil somehow. They launch a nuke at Superman first chance they fucking get.

And it's all just so unbelievably stupid. Luthor's hate and Batman's fear of Superman stems from the idea that he is god, and God can't be good and all powerful, so Superman must be evil! And honestly, Superman doesn't communicate anything at all. He goes around saving people, but doesn't seem to talk to them, implying that community hearing is the first time he planned to actually speak to them, tell him what he's all about. Which makes the first hour of the movie really draaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaag it's ass. It's literally all build up with pretty much no action beats that advance the plot (I don't count Batman's hallucinations as such), which all could have been suberfuged by Superman coming down and just explaining his position, why he does what he does....it's so bizarre. I don't get the impression that he wants people to associate him with God, but he does literally nothing to discourage that association, which lead to the fighting events of the movie.

And I have to take a moment to point out what a terrible batman Batfleck is. I don't mean in terms of acting, because Affleck is a skilled actor and he brings it to the table. I also feel that this will be a controversial position since I've seen a lot of people praising him as the highlight of the movie. And while I certainly don't like how he kills people, I'm ultimately no comic book purist and don't believe there is any 'core' to these characters a writer can adhere to and I take the characters as they come on their own.

And what this Batman is is a fucking idiot manchild. I already mentioned how stupid he is for how he lets his fear control him, but I don't think I made it clear. He comes across as a school yard bully, both in mannerisms and intelligence. It comes out in his fight the clearest. His goal in that fight is to kill superman. But he doesn't do that. He had his chance as soon as he first hit Superman with the gas. If this was really about just removing a threat to humanity, Batman should have stabbed him in the face right then and there, ended it as quickly as possible. But instead, he goes out of his way to shit talk him, to slowly beat him to maximize his pain and humiliation as much as possible. One scene I especially noted is the first time Superman regained his strength, as Batman was punching him. He noticed that his hits were having less and less effect until he couldn't hit him at all, and he immediately backed off, nervous and trembling. He looked so scared, so fucking cowardly because now he couldn't lord his power over Superman. I mean, tactically, it'd be the smart thing to do since he can't hurt him without the Kryptonite gas, but the way he does it was exactly like a bully realized his victim wasn't powerless anymore. And then once he does hit him with the gas again, he again sloooooooooowly takes him to where he has the knife hidden where he plans on killing him.

And then....Superman blurts out his mom's name, and he is just has this shocked ass look as he puts the pieces together. "Martha? My mom's name is Martha...and his mom's name is Martha....holy shit, he has a mom. The thing I am about to kill has a mother? Just like mine? He's...he's like a person or soemthing!" That was by far the lowest point of the movie for me.

Like I said, I am no comic book purist by any stretch of the imagination. But what in the fucking hell is this shit? Batman is a idiot schoolyard bully. I know that Zack Snyder delivers on adolescent male power fantasies, but this is beyond anything I expected and...how do I explain this? I don't want to say "i can't accept this" but it's the only phrase that comes to mind. Because insofar that Batman is a paranoid idiot thug, he's written....well enough, lets say. But he's not the character I want to see batman as. It's the worst incarnation of Batman you can make, no matter how good the writing is. Even if he was an original character, I'd think very low of this kind of person, who lets his fear control him to violence that harms others, and then is in shock and awe that the people he's hurting are actual fucking people. What a fucking moron. What a fucking shithead. Who looks at this character and thinks that this is a hero? I know Zack Snyder is a violence fetishist, but this is ridiculous. He seems to idealize how much pain and misery a man can cause another (atleast in the fictional context), and sees that as the ideal action a hero can do.

But I look at his batman and I'm just disgusted with his work. And I think many people are too. This film is stupid on many levels, but you know what, it's also good on a few of them. Wonder woman was great to watch, and the 3 of them getting together was legitimately hype. The action choreography is really great, and there's plenty of spectacle. It even improved on what I complained about in MoS and improved on aligning the fighting style to the characters. And I didn't even mind Jesse Eisenburg's version of Lex Luthor as much, even if I think he's clearly derivative of Heath Ledger's Joker. It's definitely an improvement on MoS. It's a better made film.

So why the negative feedback? Because I think people agree, even if they don't voice it in the same way. This film is nasty. It's toxic. Batman is not a hero that any of us want to see, even if he's well written in the context of the movie or well acted or well realized by the direction of the film. Superman's major act of heroism here leads to his death. The citizens of the world are fearful and paranoid and hateful. Even Wonder Woman is in hiding because she resents the world of man, which is hostile towards her. This film is oppressively negative, and ending on a heroic note where batman says "We need to be better" doesn't erase the two hours of toxic vibes of humanity we got before. It's a film that makes you feel bad, and you walk out thinking how shitty the world that Batman and Superman inhabit is.

I don't want Snyder's superhero universe. It's too repulsive.
Click to expand...

That was a great writeup, and it perfectly encapsulates how I felt about this movie. It's a depressing, joyless exercise.
 
When Batman was looking at Diana's files, I was like "OK here come the terrible cameos, better try and enjoy them". But then it didn't happen and I was like "what?".

Then they happened in the build-up to the climax and it was just so weird.
 
munchie64 said:
When Batman was looking at Diana's files, I was like "OK here come the terrible cameos, better try and enjoy them". But then it didn't happen and I was like "what?".

Then they happened in the build-up to the climax and it was just so weird.
Click to expand...

Not Diana's files. Those files belong to Lex Luthor
 
Schweinehund said:
Hearing Martha made Batman stop and listen, but it wasn't the reason he didn't finish off Superman. He realized he was being played by Luthor. I didn't think audiences needed this much exposition, but I think it would have went a long way here.

I don't know where you're getting the bff from (unless you're taking the "Are you a friend of my sons?" a bit too litterally). Bruce ended up admiring Superman because of his sacrifice.
Click to expand...

Realizing he was played by Luthor still doesn't explain why he let Superman off. "If there's even a 1% chance" and all that. Luthor playing him doesn't change the existential threat Batman believes Superman to be.

Now if the only reason Batman was pissed/scared /worried by Superman was due to Luthor's schemes then that's one thing, but the film clearly, explicitly sets up the catalyst for Batman's view of Superman as a major threat to humanity being the destruction in Metropolis at the end of MOS.

Honestly they'd have been better just dropping in Doomsday in the middle of the fight and having Batman realise via Superman's actions and how out matched Batman/humanity would be alone against Doomsday that Superman isn't all bad.
 
i really want them to rip out all the superman/lex/lane stuff from this universe

munchie64 said:
When Batman was looking at Diana's files, I was like "OK here come the terrible cameos, better try and enjoy them". But then it didn't happen and I was like "what?".

Then they happened in the build-up to the climax and it was just so weird.
Click to expand...

they were pretty awkward

the flash's was terrible

aquaman's started weird and ended cool

cyborg's was cool, but i don't care about the character at all
 
kmag said:
Realizing he was played by Luthor still doesn't explain why he let Superman off. "If there's even a 1% chance" and all that. Luthor playing him doesn't change the existential threat Batman believes Superman to be.

Now if the only reason Batman was pissed/scared /worried by Superman was due to Luthor's schemes then that's one thing, but the film clearly, explicitly sets up the catalyst for Batman's view of Superman as a major threat to humanity being the destruction in Metropolis at the end of MOS.
Click to expand...
But Batman didn't really have the chance to think about all that again. At that point Lex had to be stopped and by the time it was over the potential threat was dead.
 
This Batman isn't supposed to be a "hero", which is why I thought this version was interesting. Much like I never saw Frank Miller's Batman as a hero Batman.

My problem with Superman is because that character, no matter the iteration, is the definition of a superhero.

Batman used to be, but in the 80s his image was changed into something of a combination between a darker anti hero of sorts and the hero of old.
 
munchie64 said:
But Batman didn't really have the chance to think about all that again. At that point Lex had to be stopped and by the time it was over the potential threat was dead.
Click to expand...

If Batman's a pragmatist, and if nothing else, this Batman is clearly a pragmatist with no real compulsion against killing, then he'd have ended the threat there and then. He was clearly in position to. From his point of view it would have been the smart thing to do, Luthor scheming or not.
 
I saw the film last night, and while I agree with much of the film's criticisms, that Batman in the powered suit fight against Superman waa bad-ass and visceral as all hell. Really enjoyed that.

Wonder Woman was awesome, I like the little hints at the other members of the Justice League, and Lex Luthor was an interesting take, as well. It was definitely worth the price of admission. I just don't know if I will be buying the Blu-Ray day 1,if you know what I mean.
 
JTripper said:
This Batman isn't supposed to be a "hero", which is why I thought this version was interesting. Much like I never saw Frank Miller's Batman as a hero Batman.
Click to expand...

Yup. He even says as much to Alfred when Alfred starts questioning the second branding if something has changed. "We were always criminals, Alfred. Nothing has changed" leading towards Alfred's lines about how the feeling of powerlessness leads towards turning good men cruel.
 
kmag said:
If Batman's a pragmatist, and if nothing else, this Batman is clearly a pragmatist with no real compulsion against killing, then he'd have ended the threat there and then. He was clearly in position to. From his point of view it would have been the smart thing to do, Luthor scheming or not.
Click to expand...
I don't see that at all. The Martha thing got him to listen to Supes as a person and take the clear threat seriously. Superman was the only one who could safely go into the ship.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Superman | Full Trailer
2 3
109
597
Alebrije replied
Superman Day - Behind The Scenes Look Of James Gunn's Superman
18
1K
Connificent replied
how do you read the news?
49
2K
0neAnd0nly replied
Superman (2025) 4 minute scene released
2 3 4
163
5K
Hari Seldon replied
  • Locked
Superman 2025 trailer
2
437
wipeout364 replied
Top Bottom