Dave Chappelle getting backlash for jokes about Caitlyn Jenner
- Thread starter uncelestial
- Start date
- Status
Maybe if your only experience with trans people is what you see on talk shows and what not but we live in the real world. The norm is the opposite.
Forearm Star
Member
You make an interesting point. My main thought process is was this meant to entice harm to those he might be offending. Was that his intention? Can't say for sure.
However I do understand that comedy does take from current events in an attempt to be "edgy". If you ask me if I could see a comedy show during the Jim crow era poking fun at the current climate I'd say yes.
But I guess where the misconception is i'd see it as a comedian like Dave poking fun at the crap he and those like him would have to deal with. While the other perception would be a comedian telling the same jokes to an all white audience with just one black person in attendance.
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
Hahaha oh yeah, the boat bit.
FinalStageBoss
Banned
Poor Caitlyn, a comedian made a joke about her
ClosingADoor
Member
We have footage of Richards racist rant. He is directly insulting people in the audience by being racist.
We do not have footage of Chappelle's stuff. So it is hard to judge if any line is being crossed. It doesn't seem like everyone in the audience thought it was offensive - judging by some posts here in this topic also - while the Richards thing is universally seen (and rightfully so) as racist.
I think it is strange to judge this and compare it to Richards, since most of us simply haven't heard it and can't really make an opinion of it.
Dark humor is also told without relieve. Making fun of ISIS is same as making fun of trans people, in both cases you are insulting the subject. this goes to any subject, racism, russians, rape.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
You can certainly infer afterwards that the cat being dead makes the joke unfunny, you just can't tell the joke and determine if it will be funny at the same time
Man, i don't know what world you live in but most people I've talked to definitely don't understand trans.
Honestly, I have a bigger problem with vanity surgeries like breast implants.
shes wiping tears with piles of money, and running over people in automobiles
Was this a finished bit or was Dave trying something out or working on something?
I think the criticism is more valid if this is something that is part of a special where he had time to work on the bit and this was the finished product.
But if a comedian is working on something or trying out something new I feel like they should generally get the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes they can say something offensive and they can pull it off. But the joke doesn't start that way. It might take months for them to get there.
Without actually hearing the joke or knowing more about the situation I think I am going to reserve judgment.
Just my 2 cents. While racism or bigotry is not cool I think you still need to take things in context and I find it strange to complain about being offended when you go to see a comedy show. If the act is broad enough some of it might be offensive to pretty much everyone.
I think the criticism is more valid if this is something that is part of a special where he had time to work on the bit and this was the finished product.
But if a comedian is working on something or trying out something new I feel like they should generally get the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes they can say something offensive and they can pull it off. But the joke doesn't start that way. It might take months for them to get there.
Without actually hearing the joke or knowing more about the situation I think I am going to reserve judgment.
Just my 2 cents. While racism or bigotry is not cool I think you still need to take things in context and I find it strange to complain about being offended when you go to see a comedy show. If the act is broad enough some of it might be offensive to pretty much everyone.
A Link to the Past
Banned
In one case, we have a pretty horrible organization that is doing great harm to many people. In another case, we have a group of people who have no real status in society and are treated like second-class citizens. Inherently, it is not the same, because the end result is different, and unless you're a pretty horrid person, the intent is different as well.
The "joke" was alleging that Jenner was living a fantasy. This is not a joke against Jenner, it's a joke against trans people that uses the most famous trans person as the punchline.
The issue is that people in the Jim Crow era did make fun of black people, but it wasn't done from a place of mutual respect, but in fact them looking down upon the subjects of their humour. Here, it comes across as a cis person making jokes for cis people.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Tyga can't pay his rent but he going to comedy shows.
This guy
This guy
But they do? What?
I disagree with your assertion that transness is a sacred cow. Not while we're still passing laws to disparage then and not while they are still being killed because of their bodies.
comedians joke about race by making fun of the ridiculousness of stereotypes and the stupidity of racists, not by saying without irony that mexicans are all lazy and blacks are stupid. you could joke about trans issues, but saying that trans people are just deluded is fucked up and wrong and not funny.
I believe the rule is that you can *only* make fun of your own group. Gays can only mock gays, jews can only mock jews, blacks can only mock blacks. Women can only mock women.
I mean, that seems to be the accepted norm.
I also don't think he said something to the degree of "hey black people, how long are we supposed to indulge in your fantasy of equality?"
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
This is like saying making fun of Hitler is the same as making fun of black people.
AlexMeloche
Member
Telling trans people are living a fantasy isn't a joke or humour. It's simple hateful stuff. How is it that hard to understand?
natsuyasumi
Member
Dude is a known transphobe. Look at his comments here (linked in OP) or way back in 2010. Fuck that shit. That's indefensible.
this thread says:
"it's kind of silly to get selectively pissed at individual insults."
If these "insults" were aimed at a relatively less marginalized group like Jews or even cis gays the reaction would be a hell of a lot more critical. But as we see often it's strangely easy for many (mostly cis) people to explain away unbridled intolerance of trans folk. Denying the legitimacy of someone's identity in front of thousands at a time when American trans people are struggling to be taken seriously as valid human beings worthy of respect? Hey, lighten up, it's comedy! Why so uptight?
And then there's the fact that his quoted material is only potentially "humorous" if you share his fucked-up disdain for transfolk.
Anyway, this is totally a drive-by. I can't deal with a debate on something that should be self-evident to anyone with empathy.
this thread says:
"it's kind of silly to get selectively pissed at individual insults."
If these "insults" were aimed at a relatively less marginalized group like Jews or even cis gays the reaction would be a hell of a lot more critical. But as we see often it's strangely easy for many (mostly cis) people to explain away unbridled intolerance of trans folk. Denying the legitimacy of someone's identity in front of thousands at a time when American trans people are struggling to be taken seriously as valid human beings worthy of respect? Hey, lighten up, it's comedy! Why so uptight?
And then there's the fact that his quoted material is only potentially "humorous" if you share his fucked-up disdain for transfolk.
Anyway, this is totally a drive-by. I can't deal with a debate on something that should be self-evident to anyone with empathy.
entremet
Member
Kylie is probably paying lol.
According to the OP he said trans people are living a fantasy. Great job trying to downplay the bigotry though.
Oh that's what Artie Lange and Gilbert Gottfried do when they make race jokes?
Now if that's not offensive then idk what is
And what is the end result then? When you are the insulted party, it might feel like that. Just because the subject is a horrible organization or a humble person, doesn't take away from the joke.
so the joke is more righteous because the subject is worse human being? that is debatable.
some specifics would help me here, i don't listen to those guys in particular
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
Because I haven't seen footage of the joke.
This is honestly hilarious.
he's been telling this joke for more than a year now. I heard it live when I saw him last october. It's not his best joke, but in general he's even more hilarious than ever. At least to me.
As a comic, dave was always pushing the envelope of what's okay to say and not to say. And his humor is very much in the vein of the heteronormative male perspective. the way he delivered it as I heard it was an "I'm a relic of an older time" type of thing. That he can't keep up with this newer age of gender relations and sexual identities, so he feels like a fish out of water. He throws in a disclaimer before he tells the joke that he's "cool with people being whoever they want to be and living their truth, just don't expect him to play along on a personal level," or something to that general effect.
There is without a doubt an edge of transphobia to the joke, and Dave leans into it fully on purpose. He's done it plenty of times for a bunch of other sensitive topics like misogyny, race relations, and homosexuality. I'm not surprised that he offended people: they're purposefully offensive jokes and he utilizes the aura like a prop. If he's been telling that joke for this long, that means it's landing more often than not. And as with the perhaps ulterior reasons people laughed at some of his jokes on the Chappelle Show, this joke's success is most likely an unsavory reflection of the audience who is reacting to it.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
In any public sphere today that isn't hard right, if you say something transphobic, you will be eaten for it. You might as well drop an n-bomb.
Your sarcasm detector is busted.
tkscz
Member
People still laughed and people are going to laugh, even if the world becomes "too PC". You cannot force a type of sense of humor on anyone. People find things funny, even when others don't. You can tell the most racist black joke you can think of to a group of 200 black people and at least 10 of them will laugh. Dave told a trans joke, even if it were a "safe" trans joke, you'd have a large group calling it transphobic (a phrase I can't stand only because phobia = fear, not a ignorance of or melancholy feel toward), and a group equally as large finding it funny.
A Link to the Past
Banned
'Dat context. So are we still going to say that Chappelle was just being edgy and not, y'know, bigoted?
Literally can't even relay to you the difference between a terrorist organization and a marginalized group of people.
A joke made about trans people is a joke made at the expense of a people who are in a bad situation. Thus, the end result is that a group that's already the butt of society is made the butt once again.
A joke made about ISIS is a joke made at the expense of people who are marginalizing people. Thus, the end result is that a group that is doing harm to people, intentionally and willfully doing harm, is made the butt of society, and only through the fact that they are wrongdoers.
You remind me of myself when I left high school - asking the tough questions. Unfortunately for past me, none of them were good questions.
Literally can't even relay to you the difference between a terrorist organization and a marginalized group of people.
A joke made about trans people is a joke made at the expense of a people who are in a bad situation. Thus, the end result is that a group that's already the butt of society is made the butt once again.
A joke made about ISIS is a joke made at the expense of people who are marginalizing people. Thus, the end result is that a group that is doing harm to people, intentionally and willfully doing harm, is made the butt of society, and only through the fact that they are wrongdoers.
You remind me of myself when I left high school - asking the tough questions. Unfortunately for past me, none of them were good questions.
Saying a trans individual is living a fantasy isn't challenging my viewpoints, it's just bigoted.
I can't tell which comments are real anymore.
UnemployedVillain
Member
It's interesting that "minority comedy", for lack of a better terms, and its reception is highly dependent on who's telling it and if they're part of the group being joked about. A black guy making a black joke is fine, but a white guy making one and you might have some problems. I guess it has to do with whether something is seen as being bigoted/phobic, or seen as self reflection on the fucked up stuff that has to be dealt with.
I myself, as a black dude, acknowledge that even for the exact same joke, I'd be more comfortable hearing it from a black comedian than one of another race if it was a "black joke"
I also read a comment in here that this would be akin to making jokes about black people during Jim Crow. But I have no doubt that black people made black jokes during that era. However if a white person made one, even if he had always been super supportive of black rights, and condemned the laws? Hmmm...
I myself, as a black dude, acknowledge that even for the exact same joke, I'd be more comfortable hearing it from a black comedian than one of another race if it was a "black joke"
I also read a comment in here that this would be akin to making jokes about black people during Jim Crow. But I have no doubt that black people made black jokes during that era. However if a white person made one, even if he had always been super supportive of black rights, and condemned the laws? Hmmm...
Thing is, people are just going off an OP.
I think most here haven't actually seen/heard the joke.
Now I really wanna hear the joke. :|
There needs to be a comedy special of his new routine.
shadowsdarknes
Member
Comedians get backlash all the time for jokes. They either hit or they don't.
Seems like a non-story. Which is my I needed to post in a non-story thread.
Seems like a non-story. Which is my I needed to post in a non-story thread.
Uh, yes? Making fun of a horrible human being (Or organization) is obviously different from making fun of a minority group.
That should be fucking obvious. It's like asking why the Three Stooges shorts with racist portrayals of black people are less fondly remembered than the ones laughing at the Nazis.
Appreciate the context.
Were the jokes something along the line of "Trans person over in the corner got too drunk and collapsed and I was like "Is he okay?" and the paramedics stopped CPR to go "It's SHE you jackass." Kind of like a Bill Hicks bit about screwed up priorities, or was it more "Trans people are weird, that's so funny." kind of stuff?
Caitlyn Jenner doesn't deserve to be targeted for mockery because she's trans. She deserves to be targeted because she's an awful person, and the jokes should be about her being an awful person, not about an oppressed minority group that has entire states making laws against them or trying to incentivise people to hunt them for sport.
Caitlyn Jenner doesn't deserve to be targeted for mockery because she's trans. She deserves to be targeted because she's an awful person, and the jokes should be about her being an awful person, not about an oppressed minority group that has entire states making laws against them or trying to incentivise people to hunt them for sport.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Quoting, as it gives valuable context and establishes Chappelle as having said some pretty meanspirited things about trans people in the past.
Forearm Star
Member
Not to get completely off topic but.. You know what Nevermind
Also just reread the OP.. Seems like defending this particular comedian is a wasted effort since he does actually feel this way.
Skellig Gra
Member
He's been doing this same routine since I saw him last year. He had much funnier bits than the Jenner one but he openly admits he's being racist and bigoted so not much point in trying to argue to the contrary.
A Link to the Past
Banned
So more accurately, to stay completely on-topic. :v
johnsavage
Member
If someone finds it funny they find it funnny. If they don't, they don't. How is it that hard to understand?
- Status