Did anyone just say something? I'm just quoting a blank space here. Hello?
Dave Chappelle getting backlash for jokes about Caitlyn Jenner
- Thread starter uncelestial
- Start date
- Status
That's my take as well.
More than anything, if you're going to offend, you better be funny.
faceless007
Member
So art should be limitless but people's reactions to it should be limited? Given that both are fundamentally expressions of speech, how is that possible?
biggersmaller
Banned
As others have said, this was out of a set from a notoriously provocative comedian. Based on Chappelle's other material, I'm not doubting it was scathing (and potentially hilarious).
People also seem to be upset that others are offended or disappointed, which I don't understand. Nobody should have a problem with people being offended by comedy as-long-as they're not so indignant to the point where they are unwilling to even have a discussion outside of the echo chamber of discontent.
People also seem to be upset that others are offended or disappointed, which I don't understand. Nobody should have a problem with people being offended by comedy as-long-as they're not so indignant to the point where they are unwilling to even have a discussion outside of the echo chamber of discontent.
entremet
Member
This is my take.
ClayKavalier
Banned
What do you mean? A generation ago there wouldn't have been a conversation.
Unless you're saying you don't like how sensitive people have become. The fact there's so much discussion about this is progress though, even if there's vocal people who just roll their eyes.
Totally agreed! Hell, we're not even close to racial acceptance in this nation or LGB acceptance, although we're a lot further along than we used to be.
I find it's super hard for me to wrap my head around phobias because I just don't care what race someone is, what they wear, what sex they claim, or who they bang. I mean, you do you, it's not my place to judge or comment.
The majority of American's are scared and confused by Trans folk and Chapelle's joke is playing to that crowd and assuring them that he feels the same way. He's pandering to bigotry and it's working.
America already laughs at Trans people enough, don't see why big comedians feel like they need to join the dog pile.
America already laughs at Trans people enough, don't see why big comedians feel like they need to join the dog pile.
I don't think anyone is getting personally offended by Scary Movie V, though. Critics can call it a bad movie, it most certainly is, but if you get personally offended by the movie that's kinda on you and not the writers/actors.
To me the exception is if you're being blatantly malicious. Once it crosses over from a joke to just being mean it loses interest with me, and to me it seems like this was just a series of jokes at Caitlyn's expense, which is fine.
I...I was trying to make a reference joke. :\
excelsiorlef
Member
I had a scary situation. A somewhat friend of mind who becomes a complete asshole outed me to some random on the street for no reason outside a bar in not the nicest part of town.
I was lucky the rando wasn't transphobic because it could have gotten me hurt. The random actually told my friend to shut up and leave me alone which was nice... though said random person then turned around and starting yelling at a homeless person for no reason....
The implication is that when Chappelle says he shouldn't have to indulge in a trans person's "fantasy" he's asserting that their experience as a trans individual isn't real nor is anyone else's. The joke may have had Jenner as the subject, but it leads to implications about all trans individuals by trying to reduce these issues to being nothing more than fantasy. I'd argue that's malicious.
Speak for yourself.
Any reaction of the audience to a movie is on both them and the writers/actors.
The ending of the book Huckleberry Finn personally offends me because it feels like a betrayal of everything Twain built towards in the majority of the book, especially with Huck's character development. I would not feel this way if Twain had ended the book in a different way, and alternatively other people might enjoy the end of Huckleberry Finn.
Silphonica
Banned
While I don't agree with what he said.
I'm not going to allow it to be added to a list of why people want to sensor free speech. People will say things that are horrible. And everyone else will react badly to it, and put that person in their place. But the person has a right to say it.
I'm not going to allow it to be added to a list of why people want to sensor free speech. People will say things that are horrible. And everyone else will react badly to it, and put that person in their place. But the person has a right to say it.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Who is trying to censor him? Further, if we're looking at it from a free speech angle, what do you think then of that preacher who introduced Ted Cruz who said that gay people deserve to be killed, and that prison is not enough? Not all speech is free, if your speech reasonably could create harm, then it's not protected.
the_log_ride
Member
6pm or 9pm showing?
I was there, too, but the joke was different from what was posted in the OP. Must have been a different date/time.
Overall a good set. He's still a funny dude, but he's different now.
Exactly this. He's not poking fun at Jenner specifically, he was using her as a figurehead to slam Trans folk in general. It may have been intended as a "joke" but I fail to see how that's supposed to be funny.
I said many times Dave's position is transphobic, and he uses it for the express purpose of telling the joke. It's more than likely this is his actual opinion of the matter, but he's aware of how it appears and plays, and deploys it for shock humor.
The Caitlyn Jenner bit is the lead in primer for the real joke, wherein Dave sets the stage for why he felt the situation was so absurd. Transgendered people run against his intuitive understanding of sexual dimorphism, and it's specifically underlined by Bruce Jenner transitioning to Caitlyn. Bruce was a man's man, as Dave understood him, so him becoming a woman is difficult for many, including Dave, to rationalize.
So Dave lampoons "PC culture" which he feels is forcing him to accept something which alienates him, while also acknowledging that he's a relic of a bygone age; and he plays it all off for laughs with his assumed bigoted ignorance. He juggles all these elements simultaneously to tell one joke, which is transphobic at its core, but acknowledges a bunch of different perspectives at the same time. Dave is absolutely playing to the majority who don't - or don't care to understand - the fluidity of gender identification, and uses it to highlight the absurdity of this one specific instance as an example of why transgendered people "do not make sense" to him.
This is the kind of command over managing expectations and perspectives that Dave has made his career off of. Dave's exasperation over pronoun use is a direct attack at PC culture, within the context of a woman he thought was a man being in the middle of a medical emergency.
SUPARSTARX
Member
It's a comedy show. If he said it elsewhere I can see he should get some backlash for it.
In my world, the best comedians are the ones that can take an offensive topic or subject, spin it around in any way imaginable (i.e. make it offensive, surprising, whatever) and make people laugh by delivering it in a tongue-in-cheek way so as not to simply come off as a personal, offensive statement. If the joke Dave pulled just came off as a personal tirade without any valid attempt in courting in the audience, then it's just mean-spirited and deserving of criticism.
It's usually a very thin line between tongue-in-cheek and I'm-telling-it-like-I-actually-mean-it, but I honestly believe the general audience is clever enough to catch on it in most cases. If the audience can't, then I'd say the main part of the fault lies with the comedian for not delivering it well. I'm probably just rehashing what has already been said, but still...
It's usually a very thin line between tongue-in-cheek and I'm-telling-it-like-I-actually-mean-it, but I honestly believe the general audience is clever enough to catch on it in most cases. If the audience can't, then I'd say the main part of the fault lies with the comedian for not delivering it well. I'm probably just rehashing what has already been said, but still...
We're not trying to censor him; we're saying he's an asshole. He is free to continue to preform these jokes and I am free to criticize him for it.
I'd add it to a list for why people need to be criticized! Because otherwise we won't know the harm being done or improve ourselves in general.
Vampire On Titus
Member
I think even the most critical folks aren't saying "he can't touch the subject matter." It's a critique of the approach. The most stifling thing someone might say (besides outright lunatics) is "dont punch down." I don't agree with that. But even that principle isn't saying that the subject matter itself is off limits.
From what I'm reading most people haven't heard the actual material. They're just reacting to the "fantasy" line. I'm very critical of PC culture. But if I didn't know the bit and just read that quote some alarm bells would go off for sure. The only way I could think of that quote working for a joke is if Dave was doing an overblown caricature of a transphobe bigot. Painting himself as the asshole to be laughed at for his backwards views. Something satirical.
Also it's important to consider the scope of this "backlash." I haven't heard of it anywhere else. It's not trending on social media or dominating news outlets. So far most of what I see from this thread are posters criticizing the quote for being insensitive. Which makes sense because it is.
A Link to the Past
Banned
The problem with shock humour is, who does this humour shock? Most people agree with Dave about pronouns and "indulging fantasies" and shit like that. It's comedy that appeals to most people and only shocks few.
I think that's fair, the fantasy part could be argued as malicious. To me, it was just used to shock people and make the joke funny at the end. Perhaps it depends on your perspective but unless there's proof that he actually feels that way, it's safer to just take it as a joke.
If this was a pattern in his jokes that would be something else entirely, but most of the Dave Chapelle comedy I've seen he's making fun of people.
A Link to the Past
Banned
He's had some other instances linked in this thread, like one where he talked about getting annoyed when someone corrected him on the pronouns he used and where he referred to a trans woman as a man in a dress.
Iorv3th
Member
Well he is a comedian. They rag on people all the time, and if it isn't funny I'm sure he can tell by the audiences reaction and then change his content.
I saw penn and teller and they have some stuff that pissed some other people with me off because it was very anti religion. But I don't see them changing it.
I saw penn and teller and they have some stuff that pissed some other people with me off because it was very anti religion. But I don't see them changing it.
I don't know if anyone has said anything like this but I figured I'd give the reason why jokes denying a person's gender and identity bother me:
I grew up hearing trans jokes in the media. That was my only exposure. I thought that one could never pass as the opposite gender and that deep down you were who people told you you were. I dreamed of magic that could let me experience what I thought was how I should be but I never thought it was possible.
Eventually I became aware of drag and such but thats still not the same. I could only accept something that would fit in, not a costume.
Even later I finally figured out that transgender was a real serious thing but even then, the constant misgendering and fetishizing made me assume that trans people couldn't live a normal life.
It took exposure to the internet for me to finally meet people who will treat people as they deserve to be treated and for me to see examples of real trans people who aren't caricatures. I now know that its possible to be transgender and lead a normal life(well if you surround yourself with the right people) and have the support of people who will care for them.
I spent around 12 years not aware of the reality because people wanted an easy target to laugh at. Every time they made a joke about someone else, it built up to my understanding of how things are and how people are treated. I don't want to see other people go through that.
I understand why someone should have the right to say what they want, but it would be nice to see people understand the possible ramifications of their actions rather than digging their heels in.
I grew up hearing trans jokes in the media. That was my only exposure. I thought that one could never pass as the opposite gender and that deep down you were who people told you you were. I dreamed of magic that could let me experience what I thought was how I should be but I never thought it was possible.
Eventually I became aware of drag and such but thats still not the same. I could only accept something that would fit in, not a costume.
Even later I finally figured out that transgender was a real serious thing but even then, the constant misgendering and fetishizing made me assume that trans people couldn't live a normal life.
It took exposure to the internet for me to finally meet people who will treat people as they deserve to be treated and for me to see examples of real trans people who aren't caricatures. I now know that its possible to be transgender and lead a normal life(well if you surround yourself with the right people) and have the support of people who will care for them.
I spent around 12 years not aware of the reality because people wanted an easy target to laugh at. Every time they made a joke about someone else, it built up to my understanding of how things are and how people are treated. I don't want to see other people go through that.
I understand why someone should have the right to say what they want, but it would be nice to see people understand the possible ramifications of their actions rather than digging their heels in.
it's shocking because it's audible and used to draw out the humor in normally mundane situations. most people might intuitively agree with the stance or understand it, but it's generally not said out loud in public, which makes it funny or even further agreeable.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
Are there laws on where religious people are allowed to use the bathroom?
Satire is not meant to be a critical analysis of reality. That's why.
Satire overindulges , makes fun of social archetypes and rules , mocks civilized society.
that's how it works , and it's an achievement of our culture.
I promise i'll elaborate this tomorrow , now it's too late and i have to wake up early. I wasn't expecting this reaction.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Jokes at the expense of religion are done in part to mock powerful establishments and the people that subscribe to them. There is relatively little harm in propagating mockery of something so powerful.
Uh
Well that's just not even correct
Coffee Dog
Banned
So the only socially responsible jokes are those mocking affluent cishet white males?
I'm pretty sure most, if not all, trans people in this thread will tell you that shit like that is said out loud in public.
Actually, that is exactly what satire is.
If there is no criticism involved, it's not satire by definition. Jonathan Swift did not write about eating babies for no reason other than to get laughs. He wrote it because he had a point he wanted to make.
Also, satire is not inherently good or bad. There is plenty of bad satire out there; for example, the movie Funny Games is clear satire and also sucks.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Firstly, tone the outrage down, please.
Secondly, yes, jokes at the expense of people who have more status in society are more "socially responsible".
Thirdly, isn't it kind of prejudice for you to assume that religious jokes are only about white people? Tons of them focus on Muslim people, and there's tons of jokes about black Christians.
You don't understand satire at all. Go watch Airplane, Airplane exists explicitly in order for that reason.
King Tubby
Member
A Link to the Past
Banned
*sigh*
A cishet white man is indisputably the most powerful "type of person" in our country. Most people in power can be described as such. Thus, jokes made at the expense of them do not perpetuate ideas about them because many of the people who would perpetuate such jokes are the people who know first-hand that they are not reflective of reality. On the other hand, a trans person, a member of a group that is very consistently misunderstood and maligned by millions of people in our society, can have misinformation perpetuated through jokes made at their expense, because often, these jokes are reaffirming many of the beliefs that the majority already hold about trans people. A joke about a voiceless group of people can do a lot more harm than a joke about the most powerful group in our society.
JigglesBunny
Banned
Chappelle was never a PC comedian, as a matter of fact, he often spat in the face of politically correct views.
If you want a wittier, more PC comedian, I'd look elsewhere. This seems like typical Chappelle fare.
If you want a wittier, more PC comedian, I'd look elsewhere. This seems like typical Chappelle fare.
I didn't mean to offend. I was trying to explain why some people enjoy shock humor, in that taboo topics can be put out there and consumed in a less serious manner, because it's all supposed to be "just jokes."
A Link to the Past
Banned
"I am anti-PC" is not a valid defense for when someone isn't PC, and frankly, it is not even a matter of being "non-PC". Many of the things he has said about trans people go well beyond that and reach "bigotry" territory. It's rather unfortunate that comedy is at a point where as long as you call something comedy, it's apparently above criticism.
Boombox On
Member
Uhhh... it does all of that as a form of critical analysis.
Vampire On Titus
Member
The bit that I'm 99% certain this was definitely wasn't a Daniel Tosh style shock joke. Though, on shock humor generally... It's not necessarily contingent on the audience disagreeing with the shocking statement. It could be, and often is, just something considered a social taboo, or something impolite to say; especially when stated bluntly.
Saying something disagreeable can be shocking but it's not the only way.
The real problem with shock humor is that nearly all of it conforms to that corny "misdirection one liner" predictable ass blueprint. Listening to more than 10 minutes of that is almost impossible let alone a full hour special.
Yeah, people, pay attention to this. For the 90s we mainly had negative portrayals in mass media, intimidating many of us from even trying to explore it or just wishing there was magic or something. It's why jokes like these and this mean spirited are a problem, maybe if we reach a critical mass it'll be more ok but only when treated with some level of taste.
I feel like a lot of people confuse satire with absurdist or shock humor, since satire often employs absurdist or shock humor.
I have some bad news for you.
I have a question. This is a genuine question coming from a place of curiosity.
I have nothing but respect and consideration for the plight of those who are gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgendered.
Is all media in which heterosexual people mock getting dressed up as someone from another gender offensive? Is it insensitive?
I genuinely do not know this.
I have nothing but respect and consideration for the plight of those who are gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgendered.
Is all media in which heterosexual people mock getting dressed up as someone from another gender offensive? Is it insensitive?
I genuinely do not know this.
- Status