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[JigglesBunny]

"I am anti-PC" is not a valid defense for when someone isn't PC, and frankly, it is not even a matter of being "non-PC". Many of the things he has said about trans people go well beyond that and reach "bigotry" territory. It's rather unfortunate that comedy is at a point where as long as you call something comedy, it's apparently above criticism.

I'm not attempting to defend him. I actually don't find Chappelle funny at all.
The point I'm trying to make is that this is a man whos fame came from a show that poked fun at minorities mercilessly.
Dave Chappelle is a ruthless comic and he's always said outrageous and controversial things. I'm not saying there shouldn't be a discussion about it or that he should be defended, because it's a scathing "joke" that didn't go over well... but, well, that's kind of a common thing with him, so I just don't think people who aren't expecting this brand of comedy should be seeing him. Doesn't make a lot of sense to see a comic who laughs at what you stand for.

 

[entremet]

*sigh*

A cishet white man is indisputably the most powerful "type of person" in our country. Most people in power can be described as such. Thus, jokes made at the expense of them do not perpetuate ideas about them because many of the people who would perpetuate such jokes are the people who know first-hand that they are not reflective of reality. On the other hand, a trans person, a member of a group that is very consistently misunderstood and maligned by millions of people in our society, can have misinformation perpetuated through jokes made at their expense, because often, these jokes are reaffirming many of the beliefs that the majority already hold about trans people. A joke about a voiceless group of people can do a lot more harm than a joke about the most powerful group in our society.

While I agree with you, comedians are paid to make people laugh, not to promote social equality.

I think Dave's bit as told here went too far for me, but comedians tell jokes to get laughs, and many times fail doing so.

Doesn't mean he's immune from criticism. That's totally fair game. It just means that I don't believe we should have say on how comedians workshop or develop their material.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I have a question. This is a genuine question coming from a place of curiosity.

I have nothing but respect and consideration for the plight of those who are gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgendered.

Is all media in which heterosexual people mock getting dressed up as someone from another gender offensive? Is it insensitive?

I genuinely do not know this.

Personally, unless it's really blatantly offensive, at most I would probably just be kind of uncomfortable.

While I agree with you, comedians are paid to make people laugh, not to promote social equality.

I think Dave's bit as told here went too far for me, but comedians tell jokes to get laughs, and many times fail doing so.

I'm not saying that Dave needs to be socially responsible, I'm just saying that there is definitely a joke that is more socially responsible than another joke and explaining why.

 

[uncelestial]

Yes. When it's aimed towards art or satire.

One form of speech isn't more protected than another, and criticism can actually be art. Take for example, satire.

 

[Kelsdesu]

I think even the most critical folks aren't saying "he can't touch the subject matter." It's a critique of the approach. The most stifling thing someone might say (besides outright lunatics) is "dont punch down." I don't agree with that. But even that principle isn't saying that the subject matter itself is off limits.

From what I'm reading most people haven't heard the actual material. They're just reacting to the "fantasy" line. I'm very critical of PC culture. But if I didn't know the bit and just read that quote some alarm bells would go off for sure. The only way I could think of that quote working for a joke is if Dave was doing an overblown caricature of a transphobe bigot. Painting himself as the asshole to be laughed at for his backwards views. Something satirical.

Also it's important to consider the scope of this "backlash." I haven't heard of it anywhere else. It's not trending on social media or dominating news outlets. So far most of what I see from this thread are posters criticizing the quote for being insensitive. Which makes sense because it is.

I am picking up what you are putting down.

The fantasy line in my opinion was just a joke that might not have worked, but as a Comedian it is his job to test the waters. I would rather he say the joke and fail instead of keeping quiet in fear of backlash. I don't even believe Chapelle to be transphobic. His first imperative is to be funny. Some individuals did not think he was, so he will probably leave that particular joke out in the future.

As others have said people have the right not to like the joke and Chapelle should be okay with that.

 

[King Tubby]

*sigh*

A cishet white man is indisputably the most powerful "type of person" in our country. Most people in power can be described as such. Thus, jokes made at the expense of them do not perpetuate ideas about them because many of the people who would perpetuate such jokes are the people who know first-hand that they are not reflective of reality. On the other hand, a trans person, a member of a group that is very consistently misunderstood and maligned by millions of people in our society, can have misinformation perpetuated through jokes made at their expense, because often, these jokes are reaffirming many of the beliefs that the majority already hold about trans people. A joke about a voiceless group of people can do a lot more harm than a joke about the most powerful group in our society.

It's not just about perpetuating stereotypes, I don't like the idea of any class of people being okay to shit on, no matter how privileged. It ends up engendering resentment and animosity. I hate this whole "punch up" concept because a lot of people seem to use it to justify being dickheads.

The best racial humor isn't about crapping on any particular race, but pointing out cultural differences or poking fun at racism itself.

 

[freethoughtbubble]

Firstly, tone the outrage down, please.

Secondly, yes, jokes at the expense of people who have more status in society are more "socially responsible".

Eh, I can't get down with this. Thinking like that is anathema to comedy, in my opinion. Great comedy does not come from a place of "social responsibility." It comes from a place of truth -- even if that truth is personal, imperfect, or even ignorant.

can't believe people are defending this shit
offensive humor is nice, yeah, if it's directed at dicks.
not when it's racist, sexist, homophobic or transphobic, period

See, I disagree. And I'm not a cishet white male.

 

[A Link to the Past]

It's not just about perpetuating stereotypes, I don't like the idea of any class of people being okay to shit on, no matter how privileged. It ends up engendering resentment and animosity. I hate this whole "punch up" concept because a lot of people seem to use it to justify being dickheads.

The best racial humor isn't about crapping on any particular race, but pointing out cultural differences or poking fun at racism itself.

At no point did I advocate meanspirited comedy towards anyone. I explained that some jokes have a lesser impact than others, and you derived your own conclusion from that as to what I meant.

Eh, I can't get down with this. Thinking like that is anathema to comedy, in my opinion. Great comedy does not come from a place of "social responsibility." It comes from a place of truth -- even if that truth is personal, imperfect, or even ignorant.

I never claimed that a comedian "needed" to be socially responsible with comedy. All I stated was that certain jokes are more socially responsible than others. It's simply a quantifier, just like how we would say that one joke is more offensive than another, one joke may also be more socially responsible than another.

 

[MattKeil]

Satire is not meant to be a critical analysis of reality. That's why.
Satire overindulges , makes fun of social archetypes and rules , mocks civilized society.
that's how it works , and it's an achievement of our culture.

That's the opposite of how satire works. In fact your third sentence directly contradicts your first.

I promise i'll elaborate this tomorrow , now it's too late and i have to wake up early. I wasn't expecting this reaction.

When you don't understand the subject you're trying to hand down wisdom on even a tiny bit, that's the reaction you'll generally get.

Eh, I can't get down with this. Thinking like that is anathema to comedy, in my opinion. Great comedy does not come from a place of "social responsibility." It comes from a place of truth -- even if that truth is personal, imperfect, or even ignorant.

The notion that comedy should "punch up" is not in any way anathema to comedy.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Dark humor is also told without relieve. Making fun of ISIS is same as making fun of trans people

...What? No. Making fun of oppressed, marginalized people and/or victims of crimes and atrocities is not the same thing as mocking those doing the oppressing/marginalizing/victimizing.

It's like saying making fun of the nazis is the same thing as making funs of Holocaust victims. Or making fun of ISIS is the same as making fun of ISIS's victims. You're allowed to do any of that, as it's a free country with free speech, but one of the two makes you a dick and it's probably not very funny either...

Jesus Christ, I can't believe that needs to be spelled out.

You can say "it's punching down" at trans culture, but depending in the joke being told, it may well be "punching up" at PC culture.

Ah yes, poor, oppressed anti-PC culture, won't someone think of them?

(...What?)

Jenner is a Ted Cruz supporter.

All gloves are off, fair game

Sarah Palin is a dumb, evil woman. Therefore, making misogynistic jokes that target all women is "fair game". Right?

You're risking a ban over this and we're the ones getting pissy?

Some people choose really weird hills to die on, lol.

The best racial humor isn't about crapping on any particular race, but pointing out cultural differences or poking fun at racism itself.

Isn't that what "punching up" means?

 

[CrocMother]

Gender is one of the most poorly understood concepts in popular western culture.

 

[The Doc]

Actually, that is exactly what satire is. In fact, what you describe below is critical analysis of reality.

If there is no criticism involved, it's not satire by definition. Jonathan Swift did not write about eating babies for no reason.

Also, satire is not inherently good or bad. There is plenty of bad satire out there; for example, the movie Funny Games is clear satire and also sucks.

No. i don't need some comedian's punchlines to analyze reality , which is merely a question of nuances - it's simply impossible. Criticism in comedy is just a way like another to get into your imaginary and background , not the goal.
Lenny bruce said that more or less , tomorrow i'll quote the source.

 

[MsVirion]

The fantasy line in my opinion was just a joke that might not have worked, but as a Comedian it is his job to test the waters.

Would you be willing to answer a question for me? It's one that has been nagging at me from responses like this one.

What is this joke's punchline?

 

[Toxi]

No. i don't need some comedian's punchlines to analyze reality , which is merely a question of nuances - it's simply impossible. Criticism in comedy is just a way like another to get into your imaginary and background , not the goal.
Lenny bruce said that more or less , tomorrow i'll quote the source.

Please look up the definition of satire.

 

[King Tubby]

...What? No. Making fun of oppressed, marginalized people and/or victims of crimes and atrocities is not the same thing as mocking those doing the oppressing/marginalizing/victimizing.

It's like saying making fun of the nazis is the same thing as making funs of Holocaust victims. Or making fun of ISIS is the same as making fun of ISIS's victims. You're allowed to do any of that, as it's a free country with free speech, but one of the two makes you a dick and it's probably not very funny either...

It should be noted that in your examples you're referring to people who follow a toxic ideology or have committed crimes or atrocities, not groups defined by race, ethnicity, gender, etc.

Isn't that what "punching up" means?

Most of the time I've seen the term used it's in the context of insulting particular groups rather than a concept like racism or homophobia.

 

[A Link to the Past]

It should be noted that in your examples you're referring to people who follow a toxic ideology or have committed crimes or atrocities, not groups defined by race, ethnicity, gender, etc.


Most of the time I've seen the term used it's in the context of insulting particular groups rather than a concept like racism or homophobia.

Can you offer an example of this?

 

[Trey]

Would you be willing to answer a question for me? It's one that has been nagging at me from responses like this one.

What is this joke's punchline?

Spoiler

Dave is at an upscale hipster art gallery because he's rich now and this is what rich people do, as he tells it. He sees an obnoxious woman carrying on, who he thinks is a man in drag because she's extremely masculine. She faints. Dave asks the woman's friends if "he's okay," because he thinks it's a man in drag. The woman's friends get huffy at him and respond "she's fine!" Dave, annoyed, responds "well tell your friend her dick is hanging out and no one wants to see that."

A ton of context is missing, including the delivery, which is supremely important. No joke exists purely in a vacuum.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Spoiler

Dave is at an upscale hipster art gallery because he's rich now and this is what rich people do, as he tells it. He sees an obnoxious woman carrying on, who he thinks is a man in drag because she's extremely masculine. She faints. Dave asks the woman's friends if "he's okay," because he thinks it's a man in drag. The woman's friends get huffy at him and respond "she's fine!" Dave, annoyed, responds "well tell your friend her dick is hanging out and no one wants to see that."

A ton of context is missing, including the delivery, which is supremely important. No joke exists purely in a vacuum.

I think she's asking about the fantasy line.

 

[freethoughtbubble]

The notion that comedy should "punch up" is not in any way anathema to comedy.

I think it is. I'm not comfortable with imposing black letter rules of conduct when it comes to humor. I'm not going to sit here and tell comedians that punching down is never okay.

I never claimed that a comedian "needed" to be socially responsible with comedy. All I stated was that certain jokes are more socially responsible than others. It's simply a quantifier, just like how we would say that one joke is more offensive than another, one joke may also be more socially responsible than another.

Fair enough. I agree with that.

 

[MsVirion]

Spoiler

Dave is at an upscale hipster art gallery because he's rich now and this is what rich people do, as he tells it. He sees an obnoxious woman carrying on, who he thinks is a man in drag because she's extremely masculine. She faints. Dave asks the woman's friends if "he's okay," because he thinks it's a man in drag. The woman's friends get huffy at him and respond "she's fine!" Dave, annoyed, responds "well tell your friend her dick is hanging out and no one wants to see that."

A ton of context is missing, including the delivery, which is supremely important. No joke exists purely in a vacuum.

This is not the joke I'm asking about. I really don't have a significant problem with this joke, depending on delivery. I mean the "How long am I supposed to indulge this fantasy" joke.

 

[King Tubby]

Can you offer an example of this?

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what people are saying, but in the contexts I've seen people are "punching down" when they insult a group with less privilege, which to me would mean they're punching up when they insult a group with more privilege.

 

[Frozenprince]

He hasn't really had the best comeback, has he?

The man's stand-up has been killing it so.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

Satire is not meant to be a critical analysis of reality. That's why.
Satire overindulges , makes fun of social archetypes and rules , mocks civilized society.
that's how it works , and it's an achievement of our culture.
I promise i'll elaborate this tomorrow , now it's too late and i have to wake up early. I wasn't expecting this reaction.

Uhhhh

 

[A Link to the Past]

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what people are saying, but in the contexts I've seen people are "punching down" when they insult a group with less privilege, which to me would mean they're punching up when they insult a group with more privilege.

I don't think people are talking about jokes like, "white people are surely stupid". It's more criticism of privilege and status, kinda like for instance telling a joke about how standards for white rioting are different than that of black rioters.

 

[Trey]

I think she's asking about the fantasy line.

This is not the joke I'm asking about. I really don't have a significant problem with this joke, depending on delivery. I mean the "How long am I supposed to indulge this fantasy" joke.

It's just a primer explainer for the joke that follows. Dave talks about how it's hard for him to accept Bruce becoming Caitlyn, because of what Bruce represented to him during his youth. And while he is fine with people living their life and their truth, don't expect him to "play along" personally. I guess he used "indulge in your fantasy" this time, which is harsher language than he used when I saw him, but definitely in line with his general position.

 

[Darksol]

This is such an incredibly tame joke I'm surprised it's what is getting singled out.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

No. i don't need some comedian's punchlines to analyze reality , which is merely a question of nuances - it's simply impossible. Criticism in comedy is just a way like another to get into your imaginary and background , not the goal.
Lenny bruce said that more or less , tomorrow i'll quote the source.

Are you doing a bit?

 

[MsVirion]

It's just a primer explainer for the joke that follows. Dave talks about how it's hard for him to accept Bruce becoming Caitlyn, because of what Bruce represented to him during his youth. And while he is fine with people living their life and their truth, don't expect him to "play along" personally. I guess he used "indulge in your fantasy" this time, which is harsher language than he used when I saw him, but definitely in line with his general position.

So the setup for the entire segment is transgender people are delusional. I'm really surprised by how many people are bothered by the fact that some of us would have a problem with that sort of transphobia.

 

[gutter_trash]

this thread is full of fail,

where is the clip of the joke?

so much judgment but we cannot find a clip of the joke


can we asple have a clip of the joke or the bit so we can know how it went?

 

[DragonSworne]

So the setup for the entire segment is transgender people are delusional. I'm really surprised by how many people are bothered by the fact that some of us would have a problem with that sort of transphobia.

It's more to do with societies concept of an individual that has been in the public limelight and the clash that it causes when that person immediately changes it. There have been many scenarios in the past where the public has to deal with a celebrities true self. OJ Simpson, Mel Gibson, Michael Jackson, etc.

Unfortunately for Dave, he is taking it pretty badly with Caitlyn Jenner being a transgender person.

 

[optimiss]

This is such an incredibly tame joke I'm surprised it's what is getting singled out.

Actually it is not tame at all. The number one thing transgender people fight for is legitimacy. He straight up called her identity a fantasy. It doesn't get any harsher than that.

 

[Eusis]

This is such an incredibly tame joke I'm surprised it's what is getting singled out.

That it looks so tame is part of the problem, in that it's mundane to make jokes like this even when they're damaging.

 

[King Tubby]

Only Dave Chappelle joke about transgender people or mentioning transgender that I can recall is this one.

 

[Nudull]

this thread is full of fail,

where is the clip of the joke?

so much judgment but we cannot find a clip of the joke


can we asple have a clip of the joke or the bit so we can know how it went?

You need high-definition video evidence to tell you how a joke like this might go wrong?

 

[Raist]

I think there's a difference between criticizing someone's work, and digging through interviews, shows etc, cherry-picking stuff with sometimes a lack of context, and concluding "yes, see, he's actually being racist/sexist/transphobic etc". And the general social media shitstorm that ensues as a result these days.

It's not criticism anymore, it's bordering on a witch hunt, and yes, this kind of stuff does lead to unhealthy self-censorship.

 

[HawksWinStanley]

This is not the joke I'm asking about. I really don't have a significant problem with this joke, depending on delivery. I mean the "How long am I supposed to indulge this fantasy" joke.

Based on how a previous poster (who apparently saw it live) described it, he was using it in more of a self deprecating way. He was talking about his views on transgenderism and how they're outdated and don't align with the current state of things. So he's acknowledging that his viewpoints are becoming out of touch with reality.

It's not so much a joke as it seems like more of a transition to get on topic for the actual jokes, like the one about the woman fainting in the gallery or wherever it was.

 

[diaspora]

I don't know why "outrage" and "pitchforks" are being talked about. The only people bringing the outrage and pitchforks are the people whining about imaginary blanket bans and a bizarre persecution complex from "PC culture".

 

[MsVirion]

It's more to do with societies concept of an individual that has been in the public limelight and the clash that it causes when that person immediately changes it. There have been many scenarios in the past where the public has to deal with a celebrities true self. OJ Simpson, Mel Gibson, Michael Jackson, etc.

Unfortunately for Dave, he is taking it pretty badly with Caitlyn Jenner being a transgender person.

See. If the punchline didn't turn to 'I thought she was a he' and was about someone other than Caitlyn I could see that argument. But it does, so I can't.

Caitlyn and the disparity you're describing doesn't remain the focal point.

 

[Vampire On Titus]

I don't know why "outrage" and "pitchforks" are being talked about. The only people bringing the outrage and pitchforks are the people whining about imaginary blanket bans and a bizarre persecution complex from "PC culture".

No they aren't really coming across outraged either. At most they're making assumptions based on similar "controversy" that don't necessarily apply to this particular joke or the response to it.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

this thread is full of fail,

where is the clip of the joke?

so much judgment but we cannot find a clip of the joke


can we asple have a clip of the joke or the bit so we can know how it went?

Dave's shows ban cell phones. You're told not to bring them in, or else they'll hold it at the ticket booth.

 

[Catvoca]

I'm not saying that Dave needs to be socially responsible, I'm just saying that there is definitely a joke that is more socially responsible than another joke and explaining why.

To be piggyback off this comment, it's interesting that part of the reason Chappelle's show ended was the fact they he felt socially resonsbile for the sketches they were making, and didn't want them to be misconstrued as racist or damaging to his race. So people saying he shouldn't be socially responsible, or "they're just jokes", actually aren't holding Dave up to the standard he held himself up to previously.

I'm not really surprised at these comments from Dave, just a little sad. As good as he was at poking fun at race relations and digging deep into racial issues, he's always had tinges of homophobia at the edges. It's a real contridiction I'm surprised he hasn't noticed in himself, in pointing out the absurdities of racial sterotypes and treating people differently based on their ethnicity, it's crazy how he hasn't realised how making fun of people's sexuality is just as offensive and demeaning as making fun of their race.

 

[A Link to the Past]

To be piggyback off this comment, it's interesting that part of the reason Chappelle's show ended was the fact they he felt socially resonsbile for the sketches they were making, and didn't want them to be misconstrued as racist or damaging to his race. So people saying he shouldn't be socially responsible, or "they're just jokes", actually aren't holding Dave up to the standard he held himself up to previously.

I'm not really surprised at these comments from Dave, just a little sad. As good as he was at poking fun at race relations and digging deep into racial issues, he's always had tinges of homophobia at the edges. It's a real contridiction I'm surprised he hasn't noticed in himself, in pointing out the absurdities of racial sterotypes and treating people differently based on their ethnicity, it's crazy how he hasn't realised how making fun of people's sexuality is just as offensive and demeaning as making fun of their race.

That's actually a really good point. It makes Dave seem hypocritical - or at the very least, makes Dave's supporters on this matter seem like they understand him less than his critics do.

 

[EnthronedReaper]

Fuck yeah! Chapelle is back! Yall better calm down before you fuck around and make him go back to Africa again. I think people need to chill let the man do his bits. Tosh.0 does worse on national tv

 

[A Link to the Past]

Fuck yeah! Chapelle is back! Yall better calm down before you fuck around and make him go back to Africa again. I think people need to chill let the man do his bits. Tosh.0 does worse on national tv

"I am a fan of Dave Chappelle. Now, I shall compare him to Tosh.0."

 

[Nudull]

Fuck yeah! Chapelle is back! Yall better calm down before you fuck around and make him go back to Africa again. I think people need to chill let the man do his bits. Tosh.0 does worse on national tv

Fan worship is a curious thing.

 

[uncelestial]

In looking for a quote of the bit the best I can find is someone reporting that the crucial line is: "to what degree should I have to participate in your self-image?" in The Guardian.

This is toned down from calling it a "fantasy" as I recalled in the OP, so I'm noting it there to be fair to Dave. I still personally think the message is the same -- "I shouldn't have to do shit to recognize your identity; it's your weird thing that I'm just being asked to put up with." Coming off the heels of a story where he's annoyed at getting pronoun-corrected, it was pretty clear what his stance on the whole thing was.

 

[partyphone]

Fan worship is a curious thing.

neogaf is so powerful that it can literally force a man to flee to africa

 

[EnthronedReaper]

"I am a fan of Dave Chappelle. Now, I shall compare him to Tosh.0."

I'm not though. Tosh will have whatever nasty shit he wants to air on national tv and no one bats an eye. But a Transgender joke is gonna get one of the best standups of our time in trouble?

I just don't want the man to be disheartened by a society unwilling to laugh at each other. I just want another HBO special by the man. I'm sure we can all agree on that!

 

[MrPressStart]

Didn't get the joke but I feel as if most of his newer stuff is more along the "funny story" type of stuff.... So it may have been funnier with his delivery... But who really knows.

I do think that certain comedians have always been controversial and not sure why it is all of a sudden a bad thing. Most comedians are equal opportunity offenders

 

[A Link to the Past]

I'm not though. Tosh will have whatever nasty shit he wants to air on national tv and no one bats an eye. But a Transgender joke is gonna get one of the best standups of our time in trouble?

I just don't want the man to be disheartened by a society unwilling to laugh at each other. I just want another HBO special by the man. I'm sure we can all agree on that!

1. Trans people would love to be able to be the butt of jokes, unfortunately not at the same time that they're a second-class citizen. It can't be that they have to take one for the team when they are always being expected to just "deal with it."

2. Do you honestly think that people who give Dave Chappelle shit wouldn't give Daniel Tosh shit?