Support NeoGAF

[Trumpets]

I've been an athiest for as long as I've thought seriously about the topic of god and religion, which followed a childhood that was pretty much secular anyway. I then went on to do physics at university and have followed a mostly scientific career path. I'm about as secure in my athiesm as I can be, basically, and I very much doubt that will ever change.

But if you really take athiesm to it's logical conclusion, what are you left with? If everything is mindless atoms bumping into each other, with no guiding hand, then by definition there is no purpose in anything, no 'meaning of life', nothing but a howling chaos.

The athiest also loses any concept of a fixed morality. If different cultures have different (or even opposing) moral values, why should I follow any of them? Why not just make up my own morality where I can do whatever I want? It would be no more or less authentic than any other.

So is there any logical way out of this nihilistic mindset where a person is ultimately no more important than a pile of mud? Sure you can set your own goals (get a promotion, have kids, own a Porsche) but in a godless universe those goals are as meaningless as everything else. Your job, children and shiny car are as meaningless as you are and everything else is.

Umm...discuss.

 

[mcrommert]

This is one of the reasons I Believe.

My experience indicates that there is meaning and purpose in life.

Atheism is antithetical to this

 

[Sibersk Esto]

If you look at things objectively I suppose. We're here, none of us asked to be here, might as well do what makes us happy.

 

[Stinkles]

Your perspective is wholly subjective and given the logical outcome of nihilism and amorality in an actual society, irrational and counterproductive. What you need is an island, a tattered copy of Atlas Shrugged and an edgelord mixtape.

Meaningless bumping of atoms creates trillions of meaningful outcomes and phenomena.

Atheists have no God by definition and semantic meaning.

 

[Viewt]

I think where you've gone wrong is that just because someone is an atheist doesn't mean they don't have morals. My morals just aren't dictated by God. They're dictated by the values I was brought up with (didn't go to church/synagogue growing up), and my love for those around me. I firmly believe that this is all there is, so we should make the most of it by being kind and just with one another. I don't believe there's a heaven after we die, so we need to do all we can to create harmony here on Earth.

 

[SturokBGD]

If this is all we have then why waste my time thinking about it?

 

[Khoryos]

Try Transhumanism, instead.

 

[Draft]

That's my favorite Nine Inch Nails song.

 

[collige]

The athiest also loses any concept of a fixed morality. If different cultures have different (or even opposing) moral values, why should I follow any of them? Why not just make up my own morality where I can do whatever I want? It would be no more or less authentic than any other.

So is there any logical way out of this nihilistic mindset where a person is ultimately no more important than a pile of mud? Sure you can set your own goals (get a promotion, have kids, own a Porsche) but in a godless universe those goals are as meaningless as everything else. Your job, children and shiny car are as meaningless as you are and everything else is.

Umm...discuss.

This is all true, but a godless society would still continue to operate because people have consciences and follow social/cultural standards not to mention the fact that there are general ethical and moral principals that are pretty universally agreed upon regardless of religion.

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

Everything has as much meaning as you abscribe to it.

Even assigning meaning to God, assuming his existence, is arguably arbitrary.

 

[Novoitus]

try existential humanism

 

[Karsticles]

Meaning is the kind of thing that is instilled by another being. If you are a Christian, God gives meaning. If you are an atheist, it falls to you to give meaning to the things you do.

The issue you are struggling with is the central issue in Friedrich Nietzsche's philosophy. I think you might gain quite a bit by reading through his works, and you can discover that there is a path out of your current state of nihilism (toward what Nietzsche sometimes calls "a happy nihilism".

This is one of the reasons I Believe.

My experience indicates that there is meaning and purpose in life.

Atheism is antithetical to this

This is gibberish. As an atheist, I find a great deal of meaning and purpose in my life.

Certainly, finding meaning in life in no way ought to lead one to conclude that a random deity ought to be worshipped.

 

[CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls]

As an atheist myself, I view life as fundamentally self-directed. I am my own god, so to speak. I dictate my own actions and I act in a way that produces desired outcomes.

So what it my 75 or 80 years on this planet end in irrelevance? I have my life to live while I'm here and I'll do what I think makes me a worthwhile person. If I was a nihilist, I'd just off myself and be done with it. A large part of me being an atheist is finding faith in myself and my abilities without the fear of some omnipresent super-being dictating and judging my every action.

 

[Sagely]

You can easily be a nihilist/atheist and have the view "nothing really matters, so might as well have fun and be good to people". Something being pointless in the grand scheme of things doesn't take any value away from the experience; enjoyment is meaningful enough in my opinion.

 

[OriginalThinking]

The basic answer to this, is that a successful, safe society will lead to you and your progeny having the best quality of life. Thus being a good member of your community will help you and others. The amount this will help you, will likely vary by numerous factors. There's lots of research and information on the subject which a quick Google will reveal.

So having a moral compass where you help others will help you too, no god required.

 

[Africanus]

Hello Bazarov, it's been awhile.

 

[The Faceless Master]

yep, the true meaning of life is to worship a diety that gives kids bone cancer!

 

[Viewt]

Also, what I've never understood is, if all that's stopping you from raping, murdering, stealing, etc. is your faith and the belief that you'll go to Hell if you do, then are you really guided by morality? Or is it just fear?

 

[Amory]

I'm not an atheist, but even if you are there's still a point to life. It's like the ultimate "journey is more important than the destination" experience. You get to be alive, and as a human being, in a very exciting time period.

 

[Orbis Tabula]

I figure that my feelings feel real to me. When I suffer, it hurts. Doesn't matter if I remind myself it's all just fields and billiard balls and shit. The pain is real. And happiness feels good. I assume every other living thing feels basically the same way. So what motivates my morals is basically that we should do our best to minimize the total "bad feelings" in the universe. Or, maybe more accurately, maximize the good feelings.

Sure, there isn't really any reason to, because none of it matters. But if nothing matters, and all I am is just some big ugly wave that feels pain, I may as well do what I can to stop the pain. Make everyone happy because there's nothing else to do. Maybe that's a shitty motivating philosophy. I dunno. But there it is.

 

[Wickerbasket]

I tend to think life is precious because we only get one shot at it.

We're only here for a short time so we may as well make the best of it and make each others time here pleasant.

 

[Steel]

Morality and purpose are subjective, there is no objective morality and purpose. Nihilists have the subjective belief that there is no purpose and no morality, which is reductionist. Atheists in general don't have to take that stance.

This is one of the reasons I Believe.

My experience indicates that there is meaning and purpose in life.

Atheism is antithetical to this

No. It's not. Nihilism is, and while a person who's nihilist must be atheist, the vice versa need not be true.

 

[collige]

Also.

The athiest also loses any concept of a fixed morality. If different cultures have different (or even opposing) moral values, why should I follow any of them? Why not just make up my own morality where I can do whatever I want? It would be no more or less authentic than any other.

Because you'd go to fucking prison. People act in their own self-interest, nihilist or not.

 

[Sonicbug]

Fine, I'll bite.

But if you really take athiesm to it's logical conclusion, what are you left with? If everything is mindless atoms bumping into each other, with no guiding hand, then by definition there is no purpose in anything, no 'meaning of life', nothing but a howling chaos.

There are still laws in the universe, it's not chaos.

The athiest also loses any concept of a fixed morality. If different cultures have different (or even opposing) moral values, why should I follow any of them? Why not just make up my own morality where I can do whatever I want? It would be no more or less authentic than any other.

You don't act like a jerk to other because it could get you killed and the impulse to want to live is strong. Most humans are born with certain innate qualities, empathy being one of them. They've done studies with babies about this and it all has to do with survival. If I wasn't at work I'd try to find a link to one of them, it's interesting stuff.

So is there any logical way out of this nihilistic mindset where a person is ultimately no more important than a pile of mud? Sure you can set your own goals (get a promotion, have kids, own a Porsche) but in a godless universe those goals are as meaningless as everything else. Your job, children and shiny car are as meaningless as you are and everything else is.

All human beings set their own goals, because even the ones who think they have the answer don't.

 

[RedSparrows]

I don't have much to say to this off the top of my head other than I despise nihilism, and find the idea that decency can only come from faith to be antithetical to my intuition and my worldview.

It's not necessarily the most coherent position, based as it is off confused humanism centred on empathy for the mythic and irrational, and (broadly) utlitarian ethics and an appreciation of and dependency on evolutionary science, but it is, and I believe it is a good position.

Ego yo.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

If we affirm one single moment, we thus affirm not only ourselves but all existence. For nothing is self-sufficient, neither in us ourselves nor in things; and if our soul has trembled with happiness and sounded like a harp string just once, all eternity was needed to produce this one event—and in this single moment of affirmation all eternity was called good, redeemed, justified, and affirmed.

- Frederich Nietzsche

 

[jph139]

You say everything is meaningless, but if nothing has any meaning, the concept of "meaning" is irrelevant. Everything is equivalent in value - whether that is "a lot" or "a little" depends on personal philosophy.

If everything on Earth was suddenly worth a dollar, you could say that your car is now worthless. But you could also say your roll of toilet paper now has immense worth - as much as a house or a plane! It's all perspective.

 

[Wolfgunblood Garopa]

That's a basic, simplistic point of view. As if the concept of atheism just hit you and haven't given it any real critical thought.

We experience the world around us, and we have the intelligence to process information about the world around us in a way that allows us to experience it meaningfully as it is. There is no purpose for it. The concept of a 'purpose' to one's life is just entertainment, a filter for one's experiencing.

 

[Mr Waluigi]

Atheism cannot survive without art and philosophy. We're not robots, we have to find beauty and meaning somewhere even without relying on faith.
Nihilism and hedonism are philosophies that have more room for them in atheism than in theism but it doesn't mean they are the "logical conclusion" of the atheistic train of thoughts. We can find and appreciate beauty in the arts and in the world surrounding us even if it is absolutely meaningless and purposeless from a farther point of view.

edit: And that's not even mentionning that atheist spirituality is a thing, so the idea that nothing has a greater meaning or purpose doesn't even have to apply.

 

[richiek]

"Nihilists! Fuck me. I mean, say what you want about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos. "

 

[Shake Appeal]

I don't believe in the god of theism, and I'm not at all a nihilist. Believe what you want. Invent the world. Look at the harlequins.

 

[Fenderputty]

This is one of the reasons I Believe.

My experience indicates that there is meaning and purpose in life.

Atheism is antithetical to this

No it's not.

Though I do agree that morality is largely subjective. I don't believe we need some higher being to tell us through ancient text what is and isn't moral.

 

[Newline]

Sure you can set your own goals (get a promotion, have kids, own a Porsche) but in a godless universe those goals are as meaningless as everything else. Your job, children and shiny car are as meaningless as you are and everything else is.

This is why people say that philosophy is stupid. Humans don't do these things just because of some moral code, we do them because were programmed to enjoy and desire these things. If you aren't finding any enjoyment in life then you're obviously in a rut because humans 'are designed' / 'evolved' to want these things. No amount of deep thinking or introspection can circumvent that.

Think less about the why and more about the what, there's tonnes of stuff out there to do and explore. I'm atheist/agnostic and I just enjoy trying to navigate this crazy world we've all be thrust in, in all it's various expressions.

 

[CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls]

Also, what I've never understood is, if all that's stopping you from raping, murdering, stealing, etc. is your faith and the belief that you'll go to Hell if you do, then are you really guided by morality? Or is it just fear?

Morality is very separate from religion. Most people don't fall into severe crime because they've been grown and nurtured to follow such-and-such rule until they're old enough to develop their own sense of right and wrong. In many ways, people fall in line with their familial cultural and ethnic values. Check out Kohlberg's development of morality.

 

[Alienous]

"...but in a godless universe those goals are as meaningless as everything else"

Why would anything be more meaningful in a universe with a god?

 

[helloresolven]

Doesn't nihilism say there's no objective meaning to life? Surely we can have subjective meanings then.

But no meaning to life doesn't mean no reason to live. You just have to accept the absurdity of your existence. That doesn't mean your family, friends, kids, cars, dogs, etc... aren't meaningful to you. I didn't realize they had to have some meaning outside of myself to be of value. I assign value to things, not some deity.

 

[Karsticles]

From my perspective, I consider many Christians to be nihilists. They wish to leave the only world there is behind. They long for death, to enter into a paradise and escape reality.

Also, what I've never understood is, if all that's stopping you from raping, murdering, stealing, etc. is your faith and the belief that you'll go to Hell if you do, then are you really guided by morality? Or is it just fear?

Morality is a kind of barbarism. The Tao puts it best:

Failing Tao, man resorts to Virtue.
Failing Virtue, man resorts to humanity.
Failing humanity, man resorts to morality.
Failing morality, man resorts to ceremony.
Now, ceremony is the merest husk of faith and loyalty;
It is the beginning of all confusion and disorder.

Those who claim that morality prevents them from doing X lack humanity. Those who possess humanity have no need for morality.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

Why would anything be more meaningful in a universe with a god?

The idea of an afterlife as reward/punishment that comes with it I assume.

 

[Darksol]

In the absence of ultimate meaning it is left to us to find our own.

 

[cyborgnumberblue]

Meaning is a human invention created to cope with the realization of inevitable death. There isn't anything more to it than that. You can choose to view that with pessimism, which seems to be the lens of the OP (no meaning = what's the point), or you can create your own meaning to justify your existence.

 

[Moff]

yes I'd rather follow my own morals than the ones from thousands of years old books that make me a bigot, I don't have any issue with that

 

[Lunar15]

OP, nihilism is an inherently selfish viewpoint. You must gain empathy for others and those that come after us, even if you think everything is worthless.

 

[CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls]

"...but in a godless universe those goals are as meaningless as everything else"

Why would anything be more meaningful in a universe with a god?

Simply the idea of an afterlife and that your actions on Earth are reflected positively or negatively in Heaven (or Hell). People are too scared to accept that their is nothing at the end of life.

 

[Nozem]

"Meaning" is a human construct anyway. So make of it what you will!

 

[Raven117]

If we affirm one single moment, we thus affirm not only ourselves but all existence. For nothing is self-sufficient, neither in us ourselves nor in things; and if our soul has trembled with happiness and sounded like a harp string just once, all eternity was needed to produce this one event—and in this single moment of affirmation all eternity was called good, redeemed, justified, and affirmed.

- Frederich Nietzsche

And if you have felt it...just once...The world is never the same again.

 

[Trumpets]

Many responses seem to amount to, 'yes, this is all largely true, but try and ignore it and just enjoy yourself', which is fair enough and exactly what I do do.

But it does rather suggest that the best way to live is to kid yourself into thinking that things matter when they don't.

 

[dbztrk]

Meaning and purpose is something that is self-imposed. This is why we create things, whether it is gods, kingdoms, culture, children etc. We do it to fit whatever internal desire we have.

What i reject is the construct of the Abrahamic god/religion. I do go back and forth regarding whether or not I believe in a 'guiding hand' though, so to speak.

The sheer complexity of nature and the fact that as a species we have figured out so much leads me to believe that there is something that designed all of this.

 

[Funyarinpa]

There is a difference between atheism and nihilism.

I feel that "meaning" exists as an atheist. There IS more to the universe than atoms and whatnot, and yes, that's how consciousness, meaning and emotion did come into being, by particles and forces, but the difference is that I do not attribute the existence of meaning to some sort of supernatural, divine being. Meaning and consciousness were concepts created by humans, for humans. The existence of "consciousness" is something I solely credit the increased brain capacity of the homo sapien for. In the sense that it's not physical or tangible, I do define the concept as an "illusion", but it's an illusion that I accept because I experience it.

Physics gave rise to thought. They are incomparably different things, but one's existence does not discredit the importance of the other .

Theism is saying that physics and thought came from a divine source.

Atheism is saying that physics gave birth to thought.

 

[Saganator]

Interesting you posted this, as I just read the following excerpt from one of my favorite books.

Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality. When we recognize our place in an immensity of light-years and in the passage of ages, when we grasp the intricacy, beauty, and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual. So are our emotions in the the presence of great art or music or literature, or of acts of exemplary selfless courage such as those of Mohandas Gandhi or Martin Luther King, Jr.

The notion that science and spirituality are mutually exclusive does a disservice to both.

Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark, Pages: 29..30

 

[HStallion]

I bounce between agnostic and full on atheism a lot, mostly because I find its a subject I can never be totally a hundred percent sure of, not that anyone else can either but some people certainly are sure of their faith or lack there of.

I guess my issue is why does there have to be a point or meaning to life? You're alive so live! Why does enjoying a good meal have to have any other role in your life but to feed you, fill you up, and make you feel good? It doesn't and there is nothing wrong or illogical or incorrect about that. Just because you don't know the big answers or don't follow a religion that claims otherwise doesn't make your life as it is any better or worse, its what you do with it. If you're doing positive, helpful and kind things for a religion or not, what does it matter as you are still being a good person by most people's standards?