I agree and your avatar is awesome.
Nihilism is the athiest God.
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I agree and your avatar is awesome.
BarringGaffner
Member
OP is confusing two completely different things. If you don't believe in god you can still have varying philosphies on free will. (though there are way less choices 
)
Science is proving quite clearly that free will doesn't exist, but even still there are debates happening on what is left.
Personally, no I don't think life is meaningless. If anything losing a belief in dualism/free will has made me more compassionate.
)Science is proving quite clearly that free will doesn't exist, but even still there are debates happening on what is left.
Personally, no I don't think life is meaningless. If anything losing a belief in dualism/free will has made me more compassionate.
You could be a nihilist theist, I mean... The same questions apply.
What's the meaning of God's existence? And our meaning is just to worship God for eternity? Why? For what purpose? Is there still purpose and meaning in the afterlife?
As always, religion is just a band-aid. It doesn't solve the tough questions, it just puts them under a rug.
What's the meaning of God's existence? And our meaning is just to worship God for eternity? Why? For what purpose? Is there still purpose and meaning in the afterlife?
As always, religion is just a band-aid. It doesn't solve the tough questions, it just puts them under a rug.
super-heated plasma
Member
Oddly enough it sounds like you are questioning your faith. Ironic.
Red Liquorice
Member
You make your own morality and meaning, that's what we all do any way, whether you choose a religion, have one chosen by your parents and then never question it, reject one for another, reject all completely, or never had one in the first place - We all already choose our own moral rules and purpose, whether you be religious, agnostic, atheist or never thought about it.
The idea that atheists are immoral and live in a meaningless world because they don't have a bit of paper they can point to to tell them what to think and when to take a shit is ridiculous.
The idea that atheists are immoral and live in a meaningless world because they don't have a bit of paper they can point to to tell them what to think and when to take a shit is ridiculous.
thehypocrite
Member
Most of us do.
GuessMyUserName
Member
"Be good so you can get into heaven" is such a worthless meaning. Are people up in heaven wondering what the meaning of their paradise is?
Corpsepyre
Banned
I think this quote sums things up for me quite nicely.
Stood in firelight, sweltering. Bloodstain on chest like map of violent new continent. Felt cleansed. Felt dark planet turn under my feet and knew what cats know that makes them scream like babies in night.
Looked at sky through smoke heavy with human fat and God was not there. The cold, suffocating dark goes on forever and we are alone. Live our lives, lacking anything better to do. Devise reason later. Born from oblivion; bear children, hell-bound as ourselves, go into oblivion. There is nothing else.
Existence is random. Has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long. No meaning save what we choose to impose. This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. Its us. Only us.
― Alan Moore, Watchmen
Stood in firelight, sweltering. Bloodstain on chest like map of violent new continent. Felt cleansed. Felt dark planet turn under my feet and knew what cats know that makes them scream like babies in night.
Looked at sky through smoke heavy with human fat and God was not there. The cold, suffocating dark goes on forever and we are alone. Live our lives, lacking anything better to do. Devise reason later. Born from oblivion; bear children, hell-bound as ourselves, go into oblivion. There is nothing else.
Existence is random. Has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long. No meaning save what we choose to impose. This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. Its us. Only us.
― Alan Moore, Watchmen
Blackthorn
"hello?" "this is vagina"
I'm an atheist and there being no greater "meaning" to anything doesn't bother me, and I doubt many people would be bothered if religion wasn't already a thing.
My life involves enough pleasure, interest, novelty and occasional beauty for me to feel like living is worthwhile. I also think that the degree to which one's life and actions can change the lives of others is inspiring enough to not need a mystical greater purpose.
In fact, not having my experiences "guided" makes them more precious. They occur because of chance and effort, and are gone forever once they pass. I find that special enough to not need a god.
For example, yesterday a squirrel hopped up on my garden table and ate each flower growing on the plant there, which only flowers this time of year. It was such a funny little moment that only I (and the squirrel) experienced. And that's just a tiny and quite mundane example of the cool shit that can happen any time, any place in a godless universe.
Edit, to summarise my thoughts: I wish people would put more time into appreciating what makes life special and our species' unique ability to record and share our experiences, rather than be sad about something that never existed in the first place continuing to not exist.
My life involves enough pleasure, interest, novelty and occasional beauty for me to feel like living is worthwhile. I also think that the degree to which one's life and actions can change the lives of others is inspiring enough to not need a mystical greater purpose.
In fact, not having my experiences "guided" makes them more precious. They occur because of chance and effort, and are gone forever once they pass. I find that special enough to not need a god.
For example, yesterday a squirrel hopped up on my garden table and ate each flower growing on the plant there, which only flowers this time of year. It was such a funny little moment that only I (and the squirrel) experienced. And that's just a tiny and quite mundane example of the cool shit that can happen any time, any place in a godless universe.
Edit, to summarise my thoughts: I wish people would put more time into appreciating what makes life special and our species' unique ability to record and share our experiences, rather than be sad about something that never existed in the first place continuing to not exist.
John Kowalski
Banned
Hum, isn't nihilism in direct opposition to the scientific method? IIRC in nihilism even empiricism is a nutjob's crazy nonsense, nothing is knowable and nothing is true.
Just because you are athiest doesnt mean there isnt something to live for. It comes down to your own morales and having the integrity to uphold them despite being worm food in the end.
If you dont believe in god, you can still want a better world to live in. It just means we are soley reliant on individuals in aggregate to uphold and pass down those values.
If you dont believe in god, you can still want a better world to live in. It just means we are soley reliant on individuals in aggregate to uphold and pass down those values.
Trumpets
Member
Famassu said:
No, you can PRETEND there is a meaning to your life. Not quite the same thing.
Red Liquorice said:
The point is that athiests can only be moral or immoral within whichever code of ethics they follow, and you only need to look through the history books to see how varied those different moralities can be. The most upstanding ancient Roman citizen would be in prison within hours if he acted like that in modern day Italy.
Blackthorne said:
Sounds delightful, but that squirrel, the flower and your garden table are as meangingless as each other.
Muppet of a Man
Member
Sounds like you are fooling yourself, and you're not really an atheist. I find arguments about the existence of what people deem to be supernatural gods or deities to be wholly distracting and counterproductive to the very real pursuit of trying to understand reality. As such, I'd loosely describe myself as both an ignostic and a de facto atheist. Purpose and meaning are always relative to the definer of those things (in this case, humans). Things may have utility for humans but little or no utility for other life forms. Just because we evolved self awareness and the ability to articulate the things that drive us, doesn't mean some absolute meaning or purpose exists. What it means is that humans are aware and reflecting on the things that are valuable to them. It is a survival trait, and in so far as humans are concerned, a valuable one at that. Morality for humans is a similar thing: a way of articulating how cooperation helps us survive and how antagonism can be counter productive to our survival.
HazySaiyan
Banned
And you'd be in prison if you followed the Bible or the Quran to the letter too. What's your point?
industrian
will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
This is poetry.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
I have definitely contemplated the relationship between atheism and nihilistic behaviors and thoughts.
If I were ever atheist, I would be a piece of garbage with no moral compass, because such a thing would be meaningless. I guess in that sense, being a believer in a higher power makes me a better person.
If I were ever atheist, I would be a piece of garbage with no moral compass, because such a thing would be meaningless. I guess in that sense, being a believer in a higher power makes me a better person.
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
Superman is my god.
Figuratively, of course. I don't have an altar or anything like that... I've always looked up to the character as a role model since I was a little kid.
I believe that as a universal truth, morality is innate in the human subconscious. It is expressed culturally by things like religion or characters like Superman.
Figuratively, of course. I don't have an altar or anything like that... I've always looked up to the character as a role model since I was a little kid.
I believe that as a universal truth, morality is innate in the human subconscious. It is expressed culturally by things like religion or characters like Superman.
Fenderputty
Banned
I'm not pretending if I find meaning in what I do. You're the one pretending while you ascribe a lack of meaning to another's actions.
Plenty of stuff in ancient text that would get people arrested today. Not sure what your point is there.
Funyarinpa
Member
Disagree. When it comes to meaning, "pretending" and "being" are the same thing. Essentially, meaning is reliant on perception and if you decide to perceive that there is meaning, then meaning exists in the truest sense of the word.
Meaning isn't a grand purpose. It's a set of connections between objects and thought, and one only needs to will to form these connections.
SocksAndShoes
Banned
No, you wouldn't. This is religious defeatist nonsense. Believing in a code of morals doesn't mean you necessarily follow them either.
See: every religious extremist in the history of the world.
Chezzymann
Member
I think this whole idea of athiests being immoral comes from the fundamental belief from Judeo-Christian texts that has influenced westeren society that humans are innately evil and need God to save them. Religious or not, this idea is ingrained into most people's minds in the West. I'm one to think that humans are inherently neutral, and can decide for themselves to try and help or hurt others. And that's why we form societies, people choose to make a moral standard inforced by the law that ultimately lets people come together and help each other for the greater good instead of reverting back to hunter gatherer chaos.
Actually I would go as far to say that society itself creates morality, and religion just influences what type of morality that is.
Actually I would go as far to say that society itself creates morality, and religion just influences what type of morality that is.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
Sounds like false morality, brute forcing it, when deep down you on some other shit.
You don't have to be a theist to believe in basic human decency. Other great apes show compassionate behaviours and I don't think orangutans believe in god, compassion is part of human evolution. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". That's just a logical rule for an intelligent, social species to live by, and doesn't require any belief in the supernatural.
On a cosmic scale our experiences might be irrelevant and meaningless but so what? If you can feel happiness, anger, love, excitement, fear etc, then life means something, if life meant nothing then you would never feel anything.
On a cosmic scale our experiences might be irrelevant and meaningless but so what? If you can feel happiness, anger, love, excitement, fear etc, then life means something, if life meant nothing then you would never feel anything.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
Personal meaning is still meaning. You can't tell people that they pretend that something matters to them.
Just because ultimately, the universe has no purpose to strive for doesn't mean people can't find purpose for living their life.
Always-honest
Banned
You're right. Not about the nihilist part though.
And morality? Well, there isn't really any that you should follow but it's pretty easy to have some basic rules if you want a society to succeed while maximising everyone's persuit of happiness.
Empathy and logic are enough.
But in the end whe're just a meaningless blip in time.
No meaning does not mean no fun. In fact, this is the only moment you have. Make it worthwhile for yourself.
And morality? Well, there isn't really any that you should follow but it's pretty easy to have some basic rules if you want a society to succeed while maximising everyone's persuit of happiness.
Empathy and logic are enough.
But in the end whe're just a meaningless blip in time.
No meaning does not mean no fun. In fact, this is the only moment you have. Make it worthwhile for yourself.
Fenderputty
Banned
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
at least it's an ethos
HazySaiyan
Banned
Fucking hell, that is legitimately frightening.
Funyarinpa
Member
I find it rather pathetic that people need a divine daddy to watch over their shoulder at all times to be moral.
Is God and the thought of Hell the only reason you do not steal, rape, hurt, kill, pillage?
Then you aren't a person with morals at all. You're just an incredibly immoral person who is scared enough of delusions.
Is God and the thought of Hell the only reason you do not steal, rape, hurt, kill, pillage?
Then you aren't a person with morals at all. You're just an incredibly immoral person who is scared enough of delusions.
ThusZarathustra
Member
God has nothing to do with meaning. Meaning is found in cause and effect. Purpose is about finding a cause to effect. A satisfying purpose is a cause that helps not only ourselves survive, but those around us, in the hope that greater things will be discovered tomorrow, and that our concepts of self and life will continue to expand ever outward.
"We can come to know life and the universe that made us, or we can squander our 15 billion year heritage in meaningless self destruction." - Sagan
The only way to live a truly meaningless life is not to effect anything at all, to opt out and not participate.
"We can come to know life and the universe that made us, or we can squander our 15 billion year heritage in meaningless self destruction." - Sagan
The only way to live a truly meaningless life is not to effect anything at all, to opt out and not participate.
There is beauty in chaos. I'm a staunch atheist and nihilist, and I've never second-guessed my life in favor of fiction. I adore life even in spite of all the horrible shit that comes with it.
Morality doesn't exist, it's not a force like gravity. It's an entirely malleable psychological construct exclusive to humans that nature does not account for, because we made it up as as a byproduct of our tribal nature. As humans are inherently social creatures edging toward globalization, it is in our best interests to support a certain kind of morality that benefits the whole.
Morality through fear or expectation of reward is immoral to me. You are not a good person just because you follow a set of rules conjured by someone else. What makes someone "moral", in my view, comes down to one thing: Treat others as you would want to be treated. That's all that's required, anything else is just masturbatory vanity to satisfy your self or impose your self on others.
There is no assigned purpose or meaning to life and there doesn't need to be, either. The only reason you even think about it is because you won a genetic lottery, the thought itself is born out of chaos. Make your own purpose, or wallow in self-imposed misery. You will either be liberated or imprisoned by it.
That about seals it.
Being atheist is not a cause of being a dick for the sake of being a dick.
Morality doesn't exist, it's not a force like gravity. It's an entirely malleable psychological construct exclusive to humans that nature does not account for, because we made it up as as a byproduct of our tribal nature. As humans are inherently social creatures edging toward globalization, it is in our best interests to support a certain kind of morality that benefits the whole.
Morality through fear or expectation of reward is immoral to me. You are not a good person just because you follow a set of rules conjured by someone else. What makes someone "moral", in my view, comes down to one thing: Treat others as you would want to be treated. That's all that's required, anything else is just masturbatory vanity to satisfy your self or impose your self on others.
There is no assigned purpose or meaning to life and there doesn't need to be, either. The only reason you even think about it is because you won a genetic lottery, the thought itself is born out of chaos. Make your own purpose, or wallow in self-imposed misery. You will either be liberated or imprisoned by it.
That about seals it.
Being atheist is not a cause of being a dick for the sake of being a dick.
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
i believe that pleasure and positive feelings is purpose enough.
to me, the meaning of life is to be happy.
Fenderputty
Banned
Seriously. The idea that all theists are only moral because they cling to a leap of faith is a scary one.
Nexus Zero
Member
It's interesting to me that some people make the assumption that a belief that there is no god or god-like entity/ies automatically leads to the conclusion that there is no purpose or meaning to the universe.
The idea of a god is nonsensical to me. People seeking to explain the complexity and possible utility of the universe with, essentially, a plot device that by its nature is of infinite complexity and no inherent utility. So I'm an atheist.
That still leaves the raw facts that at the very least, this specific area of the universe seems "fine tuned" to harbour life. Time itself is also configured in a way that action leads to consequence, on a macro scale everything has a cause and everything is very "sober" when presumably it could just as easily be random noise or something inbetween.
None of this makes the idea of god make any more sense. I understand the anthropic principle and until about a year ago it was enough for me. But these facts are at the very least, food for thought. I've started to feel that evolution, life, and intelligence are going to be key players in the destiny of the universe.
Also as people have said, finding beauty and morals in the world doesn't require any big thought - these things are intrinsic within us after millions of years of evolution. There doesn't need to be a "meaning" for life to feel these things. It's a miracle we're here rather than not - appreciate that.
The idea of a god is nonsensical to me. People seeking to explain the complexity and possible utility of the universe with, essentially, a plot device that by its nature is of infinite complexity and no inherent utility. So I'm an atheist.
That still leaves the raw facts that at the very least, this specific area of the universe seems "fine tuned" to harbour life. Time itself is also configured in a way that action leads to consequence, on a macro scale everything has a cause and everything is very "sober" when presumably it could just as easily be random noise or something inbetween.
None of this makes the idea of god make any more sense. I understand the anthropic principle and until about a year ago it was enough for me. But these facts are at the very least, food for thought. I've started to feel that evolution, life, and intelligence are going to be key players in the destiny of the universe.
Also as people have said, finding beauty and morals in the world doesn't require any big thought - these things are intrinsic within us after millions of years of evolution. There doesn't need to be a "meaning" for life to feel these things. It's a miracle we're here rather than not - appreciate that.
HazySaiyan
Banned
I mean can you even call that moral? Not doing something simply because you're afraid of punishment is not a moral action in my eyes.
Funyarinpa
Member
And then they consider atheists to be living an inherently unsatisfactory/immoral life. The goddamn irony.
Nexus Zero
Member
Right? How many hidden sociopaths are out there right now, one excellent argument against god away from shooting the place up?
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
i would argue that being virtuous due to the promise of an afterlife reward isn't really that moral.
and of course there's a reason to be good to people without a god. because being good to other people means you make them happier, and happiness is quantifiable thing that makes sense for us to strive for together.
John Kowalski
Banned
What does it matter. It's just a word. It doesn't have any meaning. What's the problem with misspelling a word if words don't have meaning anyway. Is there even a right way to write a word? Maybe there is a right wrong way, or a wrong right way. Doesn't matter anyhow. You know what's waiting for you anyway? The empty void of unconsciousness. Like all things, we and even words, we will all one day be nothing. So what's wrong with misspelling some meaningless word. Perhaps it's right to spell it wrongly. Perhaps that's the only way we can rebel against the vacuous truth behind all things, to be it, and in becoming it lowering it to our measly worth.
Funyarinpa
Member
"No objective morality" means that morality is something completely reliant on circumstances such as society, time, other circumstances (if we're talking about morality of any particular action or situation) and personality.
There might be a common perception but there's absolutely not a single thing that can be deemed objectively moral or immoral- you can state that you will always be against the death penalty and that you think it is immoral, but that does not mean it is objectively the right thing.
Common perception is something else IMO.
Ascenion
Member
See now this is my thought process on me. But I would still have the moral compass. On a basic level I believe that is socialized into you depending on the society you are born in. Religion serves to make you more likely to abide by the rules of this just as much as social means of reinforcement (prison, outcast status, labels). The change here for me is no longer playing for the end game. If I'm an atheist I'd believe this life is the only one I get and I need to live it as best I can. I won't lie at that point I'm a selfish asshole likely doing some of the morally reprehensible actions society will allow me to in order to get ahead for me. Let's be honest society allows you to easily be a piece of shit and some even protect that ability. Nothing sociopathic or anything but you wouldn't see me letting people into traffic, moving over in theatres, donating, offering rides, paying for people at the grocery store and such or holding my tongue when pissed off. I mean yeah it's the right thing to not do those things, but I'm no longer as compelled to be as upstanding.This is just me. I'd basically put my needs in the stars and everyone else far below that.
oneils
Member
You create your own values and get to decide how you want to live your life based on those values. Do some learning or reflection and maybe try to figure it out. But I don't agree that the logical conclusion is that atheism leads to nihilism. You find your own meaning. A higher power is not necessary for this.
CountAntonius
Member
I don't need to believe there is more or a purpose to live a good life
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