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[00ich]

So actual grounds for termination should be ignored, depending on who uncovered them?
Not for this case specifically, just in general.

Not "who uncovered" but "how it was uncovered".
You shouldn't eat from a poisonous tree.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_of_the_poisonous_tree

In a nutshell: you don't want to encourage the police to break the law at any cost. Even it produces evidence.
Nintendo did the opposite: they encouraged them to go even further with doxing.

 

[jonno394]

Not "who uncovered" but "how it was uncovered".
You shouldn't eat from a poisonous tree.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_of_the_poisonous_tree

In a nutshell: you don't want to encourage the police to break the law at any cost. Even it produces evidence.
Nintendo did the opposite: they encouraged them to go even further with doxing.

Nobody knows how it was uncovered though, people are just assuming that GG stuff led to Nintendo prying in to her private life and finding this, when someone could have accidentally stumbled across it, and there was no digging.

 

[Branduil]

Nobody knows how it was uncovered though, people are just assuming that GG stuff led to Nintendo prying in to her private life and finding this, when someone could have accidentally stumbled across it, and there was no digging.

It was a coincidence I'm sure.

 

[Bots are better than you]

I know that they have this approach. And this approach backfires from time to time. So maybe they should assume some responsibility for their actions at some point?

Look, morally, i have to agree, but the sad truth is that doing the morally right thing can screw you up big time, and in this case really big time.

If they'd decided to let Ms. Rapp keep her job, i certainly think that they would be in grave danger of getting a large scale controversy about child-pornography via the Wayne Foundation.

It doesn't matter that GG is a disgusting lowlife group, or that the claims against Ms. Rapp are not true at all if one with enough public "power" and connections spins the media by the likes.
Even if a media outlet decides to actually put some research in the topic for once, the people read "Nintendo" and "child-pornography", selective reading hits and opinions are made.

Imo, the real tragedy in this whole situation is that GamerGate got a (probably?) influential person from a foundation, that (imo) does fighting the good fight (don't know how to word this better...), on their side and make her do as they like.

In the end, that's why i believe that no solution would have been a "good" solution, sadly.

 

[wildfire]

When I first read this news I was hoping this decision wasn't made because of the GG outrage but a few hours later and it turns out that's what got the ball rolling.

I hope Nintendo is receiving a lot of complaints about capitulating to the machinations of gamergaters like Intel did. I also hope like Intel they make a public statement condemning gamergate and apologizing to Rapp for their narrow mindedness.


I wish more devs had a backbone and more brains like Blizzard before allowing themselves to get swept up by trash like GG.

 

[jonno394]

It was a coincidence I'm sure.

It may well have been, who are you or any of us to say otherwise?

 

[Kaiterra]

Nobody knows how it was uncovered though, people are just assuming that GG stuff led to Nintendo prying in to her private life and finding this, when someone could have accidentally stumbled across it, and there was no digging.

I don't see any reason not to trust the account that Rapp has put forward where she suffered immediate repercussions in her job due to the actions GG was carrying out against her before this incident and with that in mind, I don't find it realistic that whatever was turned up would have been discovered by accident at that point. At the very least we should blame GG for putting her under the microscope to begin with

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I don't see any reason not to trust the account that Rapp has put forward where she suffered immediate repercussions in her job due to the actions GG was carrying out against her before this incident and with that in mind, I don't find it realistic that whatever was turned up would have been discovered by accident at that point. At the very least we should blame GG for putting her under the microscope to begin with

Especially when you consider that whatever she was up to was being done anonymously.

 

[jonno394]

I don't see any reason not to trust the account that Rapp has put forward where she suffered immediate repercussions in her job due to the actions GG was carrying out against her before this incident and with that in mind, I don't find it realistic that whatever was turned up would have been discovered by accident at that point. At the very least we should blame GG for putting her under the microscope to begin with

GG may have put her under pressure relating to her social media postings, but that does not mean the reason she was terminated was purely GG relegated. As said, until we know otherwise, we don't know what job she had, or how Nintendo became aware of this, so to just straight out assume that Nintendo went digging through her personal life due to GG is not right.

Especially when you consider that whatever she was up to was being done anonymously.

Doesn't rule out the chance that a colleague, relative of a colleague, someone related to Nintendo may have discovered this by chance. Heck, we don't even know what the job role is, so to discount this possibility is absurd right now.

 

[wildfire]

Exceptional commentary and aligns with my general thoughts on the matter.

I do think a discussion surrounding peoples and personalities that might differ from traditional conservative corporate culture that we might see at say, IBM (where you still have to report to work clean shaven and neatly trimmed as a man last I checked), their perceived risk and subsequent hiring/HR aversions. Whether it's reasonable or just to apply such axioms in 2016. As an American minority, I have found that diversity is like having a healthy immune system. The more of it you can support, the healthier and stronger your entity can potentially become. My personal experiences with companies like Microsoft and Apple suggest to me that they agree as they both work quite hard to find and employ a unique and diverse group of talent. I imagine Alison bought a dynamic and a perspective that others did not, hence Nintendo's willingness to hang onto her for so long through her demands and push-backs.

Nintendo lost a piece of what helped shape its identity today. It's not a good day for Alison OR Nintendo. And I'll say it again: it would have been nice if Nintendo was more vocual in their defense of her when the shit was going down.

I agree that QuixoticNeutral's post gave another way to look at this worth considering but I disagree with your belief Nintendo automatically lost something even if we ignore the gamergate connection.

Nintendo has always had a wholesome image and none of Rapp's personal quirks or non-gaming beliefs shown through. Removing her is almost like removing that E3 lady. They lost someone more personable representing them but they still have a wide pool of reps to work with who can represent their brand just as competently.

But since it's obvious their decision was tainted by Gamergate nonsense they have elevated their political standing at the expense of creating a better society especially within gaming circles.

They can fuck right off for their short sighted idiocy.

 

[Kaiterra]

GG may have put her under pressure relating to her social media postings, but that does not mean the reason she was terminated was purely GG relegated. As said, until we know otherwise, we don't know what job she had, or how Nintendo became aware of this, so to just straight out assume that Nintendo went digging through her personal life due to GG is not right.

Are you saying that Alison's account is not trustworthy?

 

[jonno394]

Are you saying that Alison's account is not trustworthy?

I am saying Allisons account does not detail how her second job was found, and anyone stating it was through digging by Nintendo because of GG is just assuming.

 

[Kaiterra]

I am saying Allisons account does not detail how her second job was found, and anyone stating it was through digging by Nintendo because of GG is just assuming.

Nope.

smol pterodactyl
‏@alisonrapp
An anon found out, told them, and here we are. It was moonlighting Nintendo didn’t like, despite the fact that it was anonymous.

 

[jonno394]

Nope.

"an anon found out" doesn't mean it was GG related, and tbh, I very much doubt Nintendo told her how they happened across the information, so to think this confirms anything Is again, absurd imo.

 

[Hierophant]

Will some of these people ever get some self awareness and realise they are being literal scum? Seriously ruined anime avatars for me.

 

[Kaiterra]

"an anon found out" doesn't mean it was GG related, and tbh, I very much doubt Nintendo told her how they happened across the information, so to think this confirms anything Is again, absurd imo.

When there's a specific group of mostly anonymous people sending information on her to Nintendo trying to get her fired, then an anonymous person sends information to Nintendo that gets her fired, is it REALLY a stretch to assume that these things are related? Maybe it is an assumption, but it's beyond a fair one. Your demanding concrete proof of who sent it is what's absurd.

 

[jonno394]

When there's a specific group of mostly anonymous people sending information on her to Nintendo trying to get her fired, then an anonymous person sends information to Nintendo that gets her fired, is it REALLY a stretch to assume that these things are related? Maybe it is an assumption, but it's beyond a fair one. Your demanding concrete proof of who sent it is what's absurd.

I'm not demanding concrete proof, I'm saying that to flat out say that a GG is behind this, and Nintendo are scum for doing what they did, is wrong imo.

Plus, come on, if this was a GG person, wouldn't the second job role be all over twitter by now, and much back slapping and dick waving occurring?

 

[JCH!]

Maybe it is an assumption, but it's beyond a fair one. Your demanding concrete proof of who sent it is what's absurd.

I find asking for more evidence before making an absolute judgement to be perfectly within the bounds of reason...

Is it more likely that it was GG who tipped Nintendo off? Sure.
Is it certain? No.
Is it absurd to want to be certain before making assumptions? I don't think so.

 

[Kaiterra]

I'm not demanding concrete proof, I'm saying that to flat out say that a GG is behind this, and Nintendo are scum for doing what they did, is wrong imo.

Plus, come on, if this was a GG person, wouldn't the second job role be all over twitter by now, and much back slapping and dick waving occurring?

This is the only bit that gives me pause. On the other hand I'm not exactly going to look for it to make sure it's not out there.

 

[kiryogi]

This is the only bit that gives me pause. On the other hand I'm not exactly going to look for it to make sure it's not out there.

Honestly, if they were celebrating it, they would have gone the extra mile to dox her and reveal what this second job was to further damage. But we quite frankly don't know anything, and out of respect for Alison, we really should stop trying to unveil this.

 

[Henkka]

I'm not demanding concrete proof, I'm saying that to flat out say that a GG is behind this, and Nintendo are scum for doing what they did, is wrong imo.

Plus, come on, if this was a GG person, wouldn't the second job role be all over twitter by now, and much back slapping and dick waving occurring?

That's what I wondered as well.

Also, if she was doing it anonymously, how could a random gator even find out about it? All they do is dig through people's Twitter and whatever they can find by googling her name. They're not private detectives.

 

[Kaiterra]

I mean I'm disappointed in Nintendo's actions for allowing this campaign to influence the way they treated Alison in the workplace to begin with. Even if she never got fired there was damage done.

 

[lupinko]

The Japanese really do not like tattoos.
Especially on women.

Eh not all the time, if you're in the martial arts culture it's okay.

That or of course organized crime.

 

[BlitzEngineer]

I mean I'm disappointed in Nintendo's actions for allowing this campaign to influence the way they treated Alison in the workplace to begin with. Even if she never got fired there was damage done.

For me, this is the take away. Nintendo has a huge amount of influence on the industry, it's fans and it's culture. The fact that they were complacent to GG's harassment is a bad look for them. They refuse to defend their employee for so long and then fire her on a charge that seems completely discretionary, making it seem like they are just getting rid of her on a technicality so that they can move on from the mob of harassers.

It's cowardly, and it's made me lose a ton of respect for Nintendo personally.

 

[DrunkDan]

Yeah The Mirror isn't exactly high brow...

It'll be interesting to see if some of the more nuanced places pick this up - both The Guardian and The Independent cover games pretty well over here.

I agree, but the fact that it is actually making headlines (even with the sensationalised aspect) is precisely what they would have wanted to avoid. I imagine if the other more reputable sites pick it up it wouldn't be anywhere near the same level of spin but it still wouldn't be the sort of thing Nintendo want to be associated with regardless.

 

[Nephrahim]

It seems to me that the people speculating on the "Real" reason she got fired should bear in mind they're doing just that... speculating.

You can absolutely blame Nintendo for not having Alison's back during the backlash for whatever thing happened that caused her to get backlash, but we can't know if she got fired as a sacrifice to the GG gods or if Nintendo really thought what she did was un-acceptable. People who support her will say the former and people who don't will argue the latter, and unless joe-nintendo takes a lie detector test, we'll never know one way or the other.

 

[Alo0oy]

I haven't been keeping up with this, but I can't believe Gamergate are still alive? WTF? And why is Nintendo legitimizing them?

I don't know the whole story, but it seems to me that Nintendo was responding to misogyny by being misogynists themselves. Being misogynists is not "family friendly", it more accurately describes the right wing's version of "family values", what happened today in addition to what they did with the LGBT+ characters last year, I'd say that's how they feel.

Fuck Nintendo.

 

[SPCTRE]

online harassment of women in the gaming community continues unabated

Yup.

Regardless of the specifics - which are, as always, complicated and blurry (because we happen to live in that kind of universe) - it's pretty hard to argue otherwise.

 

[ArtHands]

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/deve...do-fires-employee-in-online-abuse-row/0164791

This posted? Necrosoft Games said that they have cancelled an unannounced Wii U game because of this incident.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/deve...do-fires-employee-in-online-abuse-row/0164791

This posted? Necrosoft Games said that they have cancelled an unannounced Wii U game because of this incident.

The tweet from what you linked posted in the previous thread, but I don't think the article itself had been.

 

[Lime]

Good news that others are taking a stand. This is simply unacceptable behavior by Nintendo and it has such strong repercussions on the industry and the people working in it. It not only affects their own company culture and how employees aren't going to feel safe when management are willing to throw them under the bus because of a hate movement, but it also sends a strong chilling effect across the industry when one of the top companies are taking the side of a bigoted hate mob.

Personally I would prefer that every thread related to Nintendo from now on should have a disclaimer that their American branch is willing to remain silent and in the end fire their own employees because of irrational hate and false accusations fueled by the lack of anime titties/panties/whatever on (under-age?) female characters.

This is unacceptable and Nintendo should face up to the consequences of their reckless behavior.

 

[Heavy's Sandvich]

People, I'm really not very intelligent.

In her tweets in the opening post, it seems that she is agreeing that the nature of her moonlighting was the issue that got her fired.

But for it not been for GGers, no one would have found out?

But if that moonlighting job is in conflict with Nintendo, why is her termination an issue?

Please help, I'm really thick. I didn't even pass my GCSEs.

 

[EliRosenau]

People, I'm really not very intelligent.

In her tweets in the opening post, it seems that she is agreeing that the nature of her moonlighting was the issue that got her fired.

But for it not been for GGers, no one would have found out?

But if that moonlighting job is in conflict with Nintendo, why is her termination an issue?

Please help, I'm really thick. I didn't even pass my GCSEs.

There is not an issue but people seem to think that the public bullied her and pressured Nintendo to give up her job and fire her. Just because the information came from the public doesn't make the grounds less justified.

 

[Bots are better than you]

Good news that others are taking a stand. This is simply unacceptable behavior by Nintendo and it has such strong repercussions on the industry and the people working in it. It not only affects their own company culture and how employees aren't going to feel safe when management are willing to throw them under the bus because of a hate movement, but it also sends a strong chilling effect across the industry when one of the top companies are taking the side of a bigoted hate mob.

Personally I would prefer that every thread related to Nintendo from now on should have a disclaimer that their American branch is willing to remain silent and in the end fire their own employees because of irrational hate and false accusations fueled by the lack of anime titties/panties/whatever on (under-age?) female characters.

This is unacceptable and Nintendo should face up to the consequences of their reckless behavior.

And again, have you thought of the possible consequences if Nintendo did let her keep her job? Morally the right thing to do, i agree with you. But morally right is sadly sometimes ... not the best thing one can do.

Do you think this would lead the GG fuckers to stop attacking her, attacking her colleagues? Do you think that Wayne Foundation person would just go "well ok, we're good now"?

This whole stuff is so fucked up that there is literally no good solution at all, for neither.

 

[@MUWANdo]

People, I'm really not very intelligent.

In her tweets in the opening post, it seems that she is agreeing that the nature of her moonlighting was the issue that got her fired.

But for it not been for GGers, no one would have found out?

But if that moonlighting job is in conflict with Nintendo, why is her termination an issue?

Please help, I'm really thick. I didn't even pass my GCSEs.

We don't know what her second job was so it's impossible to know for sure but the inference is that she was within her rights to work a second job and did everything reasonable to keep people from tracing her work back to Nintendo, and that she was only discovered due to the completely unreasonable and unusual level of scrutiny she's under from GG idiots.

 

[A Link to the Past]

There is not an issue but people seem to think that the public bullied her and pressured Nintendo to give up her job and fire her. Just because the information came from the public doesn't make the grounds less justified.

It didn't come from "the public" (what a poorly defined parameter!), it came from a group of people who have been routinely targeting her. And again, if you read, the issue is not that she was moonlighting, but that she was moonlighting in a specific fashion that Nintendo was not keen about (which could mean virtually anything - that she could do it but they didn't like it, that she could not do it because it had a conflict of interest, etc.).

 

[Nikodemos]

People, I'm really not very intelligent.

In her tweets in the opening post, it seems that she is agreeing that the nature of her moonlighting was the issue that got her fired.

But for it not been for GGers, no one would have found out?

But if that moonlighting job is in conflict with Nintendo, why is her termination an issue?

Please help, I'm really thick. I didn't even pass my GCSEs.

It goes like this. Her corporately-questionable (or so Nintendo claim) moonlighting was extremely unlikely to have been discovered by NTD HR themselves, since they don't, as a rule, do Internet detective work on their employees.

However, a Gator brought it up to them and thus offered them a weak but defensible alibi for dumping her (after she became a hot potato to them due to the continued smear and harassment against her).

Basically Gators used Nintendo's corporate predictability, rigidity and risk-aversion to have Rapp fired.

 

[Heavy's Sandvich]

Because a Gator found it, Nintendo should ignore it?

 

[jonno394]

The tweet from what you linked posted in the previous thread, but I don't think the article itself had been.

There game will be missed....I still thin people shouldn't do things like this until they know every facet of the story but as that likely won't happen, I'm sure there will be plenty more people lambasting Nintendo and dropping projects, even though imo, the termination is likely right,

 

[Nikodemos]

Because a Gator found it, Nintendo should ignore it?

Definitely. They are vile and disgusting people who richly deserve all the ill that may befall upon them.

And one should not eat the fruit of poisonous trees.

 

[jonno394]

It goes like this. Her corporately-questionable (or so Nintendo claim) moonlighting was extremely unlikely to have been discovered by NTD HR themselves, since they don't, as a rule, do Internet detective work on their employees.

However, a Gator brought it up to them and thus offered them a weak but defensible alibi for dumping her (after she became a hot potato to them due to the continued smear and harassment against her).

Basically Gators used Nintendo's corporate predictability, rigidity and risk-aversion to have Rapp fired.

As mentioned before, the "Gator" aspect of this is not concrete and has not been confirmed, people are just jumping to that conclusion because Alison states "an anon" in her tweet, which could just be her guessing it, as I very much doubt Nintendo laid everything out in a ncie picture for her while dismissing her.

 

[Metal B]

People, I'm really not very intelligent.

In her tweets in the opening post, it seems that she is agreeing that the nature of her moonlighting was the issue that got her fired.

But for it not been for GGers, no one would have found out?

But if that moonlighting job is in conflict with Nintendo, why is her termination an issue?

Please help, I'm really thick. I didn't even pass my GCSEs.

This is pretty much a Lose-Lose situation for Nintendo.
Either fire her and have people believe, they side with a hate mob. Or keep an employ, who lost control of her work environment and infringed her employment contract, even so the prof comes from an hateful source.

Still Nintendo handled the situation poorly and didn't keep the damage low.

 

[@MUWANdo]

Because a Gator found it, Nintendo should ignore it?

Again, it's impossible to answer without knowing what "it" even was, but yes, if she took all reasonable precautions to separate her two work identities and it was only uncovered under unreasonable circumstances (ie GG obsessives engaging in muckraking) then the context is crucial.

 

[Captain_Spanky]

Because a Gator found it, Nintendo should ignore it?

Yes.This simply encourages similar behavior and harassment in the future. And few peoples lives could withstand the intense scrutiny internet stalkers with a grudge provide. I know mine couldn't and I'm fairly average. Even as simple as "would you like your tastes in pornography made known to your employer?" I certainly don't relish the thought of my penchant for obese pissing geriatrics made public, despite the fact it's legal, harmless and well within my rights to enjoy.

Hell a VERY good friend of mine lost their career because a vindictive, abusive ex outed her as being part of a local BDSM group in court (where the judge, rightly, told him it was irrelevant and, considering he'd met her there, highly hypocritical to try and smear her character with).

Cue avatar quote I guess

 

[hodgy100]

Because a Gator found it, Nintendo should ignore it?

No they should ignore it because she took the necessary steps to avoid the moonlighting from being associated with nintendo (kept anonymous and used pseudonyms) It's only due to the extensive unjustified scrutiny that GG were putting on her that it came to light at-all.

If i was put under constant scrutiny you could probably dig up some shit on me that wouldn't look good. does that mean it should be used against me? I'd hope not.

 

[Heavy's Sandvich]

Surely, they could have outed her second job easily but decided no to?

 

[Heavy's Sandvich]

No they should ignore it because she took the necessary steps to avoid the moonlighting from being associated with nintendo (kept anonymous and used pseudonyms) It's only due to the extensive unjustified scrutiny that GG were putting on her that it came to light at-all.

If i was put under constant scrutiny you could probably dig up some shit on me that wouldn't look good. does that mean it should be used against me? I'd hope not.

Well yes it should be used against you if its going to conflict greatly with corporate image.

The fact it was found shows her necessary steps weren't good enough then?

 

[Anteo]

Definitely. They are vile and disgusting people who richly deserve all the ill that may befall upon them.

And one should not eat the fruit of poisonous trees.

No they should ignore it because she took the necessary steps to avoid the moonlighting from being associated with nintendo (kept anonymous and used pseudonyms) It's only due to the extensive unjustified scrutiny that GG were putting on her that it came to light at-all.

If i was put under constant scrutiny you could probably dig up some shit on me that wouldn't look good. does that mean it should be used against me? I'd hope not.

As I said in the last thread, doenst matter who finds it, if its problematic to Nintendo they will look into it anyways. If that person found a way to connect Rapp to her alias, then he found a way to connect that work direclty to Nintendo, he could give the proof to any low end gamng website that wants the clicks and Nintendo would have the kind of story news they are trying to avoid.

Also, remember that according to her tweets, the review on her twitter history stripped her of the spokeperson status first. They didnt fire her outright, altought we dont know if they planned to fire her from the begining.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Because a Gator found it, Nintendo should ignore it?

It's similar to evidence in a trial being thrown out because it was acquired through illegal means.

So, yes.

 

[Captain_Spanky]

Well yes it should be used against you if its going to conflict greatly with corporate image.

The fact it was found shows her necessary steps weren't good enough then?

So nobody has a right to a private life? Bearing in mind that most "corporate standards" are simply means of exclusion and control and really they have no right to police people to that extent.