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Batman v Superman Spoiler Thread: Don't believe everything you read, Son
- Thread starter N7Commander95
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Why start up a World Security Council of course.
Both the parents death scene and the bats dream were more from TDKR the comic.
Movie is filled with panel to live action adaptation shots.
This is a movie where a woman leaps hundreds of yards and can chop the limbs off a Kryptonian with her sword and a guy that is only vulnerable to things with the word Krypton in them with video scenes of a guy who lives under the sea and a guy so fast he can bend time.
Sorry if within the disjointed scene after scene, I forgot that he mentioned the bat thing was a dream. My roommate still thought the dude coming from the future in a dream was Robin and also why were there papers flying around In real life after he woke up from that dream?
Did Superman... expect that the nuke would come? Did he... expect that it would work? Since Doomsday never demonstrated an ability to resist Superman's plan to throw him into space, why didn't Superman try it again?
Was the whole point of that entire thing... just to get the image of day-at-night?
Was the whole point of that entire thing... just to get the image of day-at-night?
Because it wasn't a dream, it was a speed-force vision.
It's just incoherently edited.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Never underestimate people's ability to place a clearly stated fact into their own worldview.
x100000 with fanboys.
ICBM's aren't really that accurate. The Trident system has an 'advertised' accuracy of 90m CEP and the Minuteman 200m CEP. None of the US/UK ICBM's use GPS they're all internal inertia and starmapping. GPS has been tested on them, but isn't due for Trident until 2020. It's doubtful the Minuteman will ever get GPS, it just doesn't need it.
Not only that, and it's not a BvS thing. They simply don't fly the way films show them, they're multistaged rocket, the body of the rocket is discarded well before apogee. While it looks cool, by the time it reaches space it's essentially just the warheads in the nose casing (for obvious reasons the warheads aren't actually armed until final separation is successful)
But essentially it's a movie, and you need to present a visual image which the audience understands else you have to explain it. And it's a fantasy world, small changes in how tech works isnt really an issue as long as it's not too outlandish as to be immediately offputting to the audience. For instance, from what I can remember it looks like the Batwings flight profile would be nigh on impossible currently. I mean you can hover an F-35 or a Harrier but you can't actually put it close to a building while doing so without setting shit on fire and blowing out every window, those things are incredibly loud and generate a shit ton of heat. But how the batwing flies doesn't break immersion, and neither does the nuke thing.
What am I a fanboy of and what worldview are you referring to that I have?
He looked pretty surprised about the nuke. It just seemed like A) an chance for them to absolve any guilt of Superman not getting Doomsday the hell away from the city, and B) another chance to conveniently crib from The Dark Knight Returns.
Frankly, aside from the dumb Frank Miller "Supes looks like a zombie when hit with a nuke" thing, I didn't have a massive problem with this.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
If it makes you all sleep better at night we can assume that this was a special single-stage-to-orbit, low-yield single-warhead missile specifically designed for attacking targets in space in the wake of the Kryptonian attack. More for space ships than for people, but theoretically capable as long as they can track the person.
If this was the only problem the movie had, the RT score would be a looot higher.
Generic Power Ranger
Member
Why is Gotham 10 meters away from metropolis? That, to me was weird. Lex Luther also seemed to have no motivation, batman talking about superman's collateral damage and then swinging a car all around Gotham right after was weirdly double standard, batman throwing away the spear before hearing superman out seemed out of character after everything building up to the moment and the assembling of justice League seemed forced... But! Other than that I thought it was good! Also a lot better than I was fearing from reading gaf 
batman was pretty awesome. Liked that he is already old batman here.
Edit. Also, I want to see that movie in the future.. That looked like a mega cool concept
batman was pretty awesome. Liked that he is already old batman here.Edit. Also, I want to see that movie in the future.. That looked like a mega cool concept
Why is Gotham 10 meters away from metropolis? That, to me was weird. Lex Luther also seemed to have no motivation, batman talking about superman's collateral damage and then swinging a car all around Gotham right after was weirdly double standard, batman throwing away the spear before hearing superman out seemed out of character after everything building up to the moment and the assembling of justice League seemed forced... But! Other than that I thought it was good! Also a lot better than I was fearing from reading gaf
Edit. Also, I want to see that movie in the future.. That looked like a mega cool concept
Lex's motivation is he's working for Darkseid. Problem is the film only makes that explicit in a scene they cut.
newtypepilot
Member
Finally saw it tonight. It is bad, but not horrible. It tried to do too much and ends up falling flat
- movie is too long. Felt like nothing happened in the first hour. It felt like it just keep dragging on and on.
- editing and pacing is all over the place. Sometimes there were multiple plots happening at once and it was hard to follow.
- omg the lensflare. Horrible, distorted lens flare everywhere
- 3D was done in post and done poorly. Ghosting was quite apparent for objects that are close to the edge of the screen. I don't know if this was caused by the projector though.
- the fight between Batman and Superman was pretty pointless.
- Batman was easily manipulated by Luther despite having gone through Luther's files. Is Bruce really that dumb?
- Superman abandons the fight vs Doomsday mid-battle to save Lois. Then it gets cheesy with the "I love you" thing all the while Wonder Woman is fighting by herself. wtf? (Let's face it, Batman can't do much in that fight)
- it's funny that Clark can sense if Lois is in danger, but the same cannot be said for his mom.
- no explanation on Lex's motives. He acts more like The Riddler but without the riddles, tbh. He also knows the real identities of Superman and Batman just because.
- I thought there was too many dream/nightmare sequences. They don't need to show Bruce's parents dying twice, although I did like that one long shot of Batman taking out multiple soldiers. Also, Flash popping out of some portal? wtf?
- shouldn't Wonder Woman use the Kryptonite spear since she's not affected by it???
- we all know superman isn't really dead.
- movie is too long. Felt like nothing happened in the first hour. It felt like it just keep dragging on and on.
- editing and pacing is all over the place. Sometimes there were multiple plots happening at once and it was hard to follow.
- omg the lensflare. Horrible, distorted lens flare everywhere
- 3D was done in post and done poorly. Ghosting was quite apparent for objects that are close to the edge of the screen. I don't know if this was caused by the projector though.
- the fight between Batman and Superman was pretty pointless.
- Batman was easily manipulated by Luther despite having gone through Luther's files. Is Bruce really that dumb?
- Superman abandons the fight vs Doomsday mid-battle to save Lois. Then it gets cheesy with the "I love you" thing all the while Wonder Woman is fighting by herself. wtf? (Let's face it, Batman can't do much in that fight)
- it's funny that Clark can sense if Lois is in danger, but the same cannot be said for his mom.
- no explanation on Lex's motives. He acts more like The Riddler but without the riddles, tbh. He also knows the real identities of Superman and Batman just because.
- I thought there was too many dream/nightmare sequences. They don't need to show Bruce's parents dying twice, although I did like that one long shot of Batman taking out multiple soldiers. Also, Flash popping out of some portal? wtf?
- shouldn't Wonder Woman use the Kryptonite spear since she's not affected by it???
- we all know superman isn't really dead.
Everytime i think about this movie..
I still don't know one way or another it has damaged me a bit from the inside. It is not like oh boy you are broken! But you know it did something that no other movie did...every time i think of it this whole movie is depressing,to dark,no emotion,incoherent mess of scenes,gritty,angry.
When i think of the Nolan movies yeah it is also more realistic at least i find it fun to watch and be entertained. This movie though went above and beyond not knowing in what direction it went.
I also think i cannot watch it again it at all such a mess of movie.
I still don't know one way or another it has damaged me a bit from the inside. It is not like oh boy you are broken! But you know it did something that no other movie did...every time i think of it this whole movie is depressing,to dark,no emotion,incoherent mess of scenes,gritty,angry.
When i think of the Nolan movies yeah it is also more realistic at least i find it fun to watch and be entertained. This movie though went above and beyond not knowing in what direction it went.
I also think i cannot watch it again it at all such a mess of movie.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Gotham and Metropolis have been depicted as twin cities or cities that are otherwise very close together in the past. Different fictions have done them very differently. To wit, the third time I have posted this section from Wikipedia:
Motivations and intents were super muddled and unclear. Clark is in no position to wag fingers. And yeah, Lex's reasoning for doing... well.. anything in this movie is so poorly explained.Why is Gotham 10 meters away from metropolis? That, to me was weird. Lex Luther also seemed to have no motivation, batman talking about superman's collateral damage and then swinging a car all around Gotham right after was weirdly double standard, batman throwing away the spear before hearing superman out seemed out of character after everything building up to the moment and the assembling of justice League seemed forced... But! Other than that I thought it was good! Also a lot better than I was fearing from reading gaf
Edit. Also, I want to see that movie in the future.. That looked like a mega cool concept
Seemed like Lex only discovered Darkseid in that deleted scene. And his little speech at the end was him laughing as he knows humanity is teetering on the edge of oblivion...
God fucking damnit, this fucking movie. What the fuck else was lost in that extended cut? ASSUMING IT WAS THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE!
matrix-cat
Member
My favourite part was this one totally random cut to Larry Fishburne shouting for Clark in the Daily Planet office, wondering if he just clicks his heels and goes back to Kansas, and then...? Nothing! It doesn't follow on from the scene before, it doesn't lead into the next scene, it just sits there, padding out the movie's runtime
Other favourite part is the dramatic cuts to an answering machine during the Doomsday fight. "MR PRESIDENT, DO WE FIRE THE NUKE!?"
"MR PRESIDENT, WE NEED YOUR CONFIRMATION!"
Other favourite part is the dramatic cuts to an answering machine during the Doomsday fight. "MR PRESIDENT, DO WE FIRE THE NUKE!?"
"MR PRESIDENT, WE NEED YOUR CONFIRMATION!"
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
More like foreshadowing, since it seems to be in reference to Kryptonians, not Darkseid specifically, although the ending focus on it is implying Darkseid.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Just in general.
Generic Power Ranger
Member
Ah.. I don't know who that is. In the context of the movie it just seems like he wants to destroy everything which is weird considering he would gain nothing. They just needed to give him a little time. They try to do a bit too much in the movie which is a shame. Needed an ekstra 20 minutes probably.
Hmm. Well. This is just weird to me. Like super weird. Why does super man operate in metropolis and batman in Gotham then? .. Maybe it's just me. I haven't seen them depicted like that before. My friends also thought it was weird.
What extended cut? Can hope they make the r rated cut an extended one too. I want that more than r rated sequences.
excelsiorlef
Member
My favourite part was this one totally random cut to Larry Fishburne shouting for Clark in the Daily Planet office, wondering if he just clicks his heels and goes back to Kansas, and then...? Nothing! It doesn't follow on from the scene before, it doesn't lead into the next scene, it just sits there, padding out the movie's runtime
Other favourite part is the dramatic cuts to an answering machine during the Doomsday fight. "MR PRESIDENT, DO WE FIRE THE NUKE!?"
"MR PRESIDENT, WE NEED YOUR CONFIRMATION!"
Fun fact the President was Patrick Wilson
The R-rated cut is the Extended Cut. It runs 3 hours long while this is 2 hours and 30. That's 1/6th of the movie's character work and connective tissue lost in the theatrical release. As a result, audiences were served up a mess of a movie.
Generic Power Ranger
Member
Why not just release that version then. Might have helped with the meta rating. I thought it was a good movie, but it did have some issues that seems to have hurt it.
Edit. We also thought it was funny when the movie was like "yes Lex knows who superman is" well of course he knows. He looks and acts and talks pretty much identical to Clark Kent. I'm not sure how they could resolve this, but it's a big issue with superman. It's so obvious!
R-RATED SUPERHERO FILMS?
Lol, that'll never make money.
Now sit back, X Gun Give It To Ya.
My favourite part was this one totally random cut to Larry Fishburne shouting for Clark in the Daily Planet office, wondering if he just clicks his heels and goes back to Kansas, and then...? Nothing! It doesn't follow on from the scene before, it doesn't lead into the next scene, it just sits there, padding out the movie's runtime
Other favourite part is the dramatic cuts to an answering machine during the Doomsday fight. "MR PRESIDENT, DO WE FIRE THE NUKE!?"
"MR PRESIDENT, WE NEED YOUR CONFIRMATION!"
May God have mercy on our souls.
Generic Power Ranger
Member
Even if that was their concern, I assume that not every single shot of those 30 mins contain gore or sex. At least I hope not.
esmith08734
Member
Saw it on opening day. I was super excited for the movie but it was just average.
The Pros:
Ben Affleck as Batman. He was awesome. I had zero complaints and ultimately think he is the best Batman / Bruce Wayne combination we have seen
Aflred as an accomplice. It was cool to see him be something more than the wise old man.
The action scenes were mostly well-done. Some of the CGI was jarring but it was ultimately a visual treat.
Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman. I loved her. Arguably the most attractive woman in Hollywood and she just was a badass. I could have done without her lame guitar riff.
Cons:
Jesse Eisenberg as Luthor. He was okay in scenes but tried too hard to be a character that didn't work in the scheme of things.
Lois Lane being a helpless prop. She's useless. She flirts with death too much and is just there to show Superman cares for her.
Superman. Henry Cavill might get a bad rep here but I think it is the writing that makes him so unlikeable. It's like watching paint dry in the winter on a cloudy day.
The whole 'suspend rational thought so this can happen perfectly' setup:
Why doesn't Wonder Woman use the spear to kill Doomsday? I know Snyder was trying to make Superman commit the ultimate sacrifice to show his selfless side to the public but hey, if there's another potential threat, it would sure be nice to have Superman around. Wonder Woman leaped like 500 feet in one scene. I am sure she can climb up Doomsday.
Why the fuck does Superman say to save Martha as he's dying? Most people would say to save their mother. Ben doesn't know she's being held hostage so the line makes no sense. That was so distracting.
The props that Batman setup for the fight between him and Superman were laid out perfectly. I know Batman controlled the fight and was able to dictate a lot of where they were but it was another instance where I am like, wow, how fortunate for NOTHING to go wrong here.
And last, but not least, Snyder sucks at editing. The dude makes TOO many scenes that are standalone scenes and not cohesive to the entire project. We never get a good sense of time lapse or development. It's like he needs to add maybe 30 seconds to the start of each scene to make transitions. It was distracting in Man of Steel and it is still distracting here.
I think superhero flicks are tiring me out. I think this one was okay. It was fun to see but it wasn't a complete, thoughtful project. I can see a lot of people loving it, though. It DOES have some really cool moments. I think the reviews were A LITTLE hard on the movie. It's flawed but not abysmal.
The Pros:
Ben Affleck as Batman. He was awesome. I had zero complaints and ultimately think he is the best Batman / Bruce Wayne combination we have seen
Aflred as an accomplice. It was cool to see him be something more than the wise old man.
The action scenes were mostly well-done. Some of the CGI was jarring but it was ultimately a visual treat.
Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman. I loved her. Arguably the most attractive woman in Hollywood and she just was a badass. I could have done without her lame guitar riff.
Cons:
Jesse Eisenberg as Luthor. He was okay in scenes but tried too hard to be a character that didn't work in the scheme of things.
Lois Lane being a helpless prop. She's useless. She flirts with death too much and is just there to show Superman cares for her.
Superman. Henry Cavill might get a bad rep here but I think it is the writing that makes him so unlikeable. It's like watching paint dry in the winter on a cloudy day.
The whole 'suspend rational thought so this can happen perfectly' setup:
Why doesn't Wonder Woman use the spear to kill Doomsday? I know Snyder was trying to make Superman commit the ultimate sacrifice to show his selfless side to the public but hey, if there's another potential threat, it would sure be nice to have Superman around. Wonder Woman leaped like 500 feet in one scene. I am sure she can climb up Doomsday.
Why the fuck does Superman say to save Martha as he's dying? Most people would say to save their mother. Ben doesn't know she's being held hostage so the line makes no sense. That was so distracting.
The props that Batman setup for the fight between him and Superman were laid out perfectly. I know Batman controlled the fight and was able to dictate a lot of where they were but it was another instance where I am like, wow, how fortunate for NOTHING to go wrong here.
And last, but not least, Snyder sucks at editing. The dude makes TOO many scenes that are standalone scenes and not cohesive to the entire project. We never get a good sense of time lapse or development. It's like he needs to add maybe 30 seconds to the start of each scene to make transitions. It was distracting in Man of Steel and it is still distracting here.
I think superhero flicks are tiring me out. I think this one was okay. It was fun to see but it wasn't a complete, thoughtful project. I can see a lot of people loving it, though. It DOES have some really cool moments. I think the reviews were A LITTLE hard on the movie. It's flawed but not abysmal.
Wonder Woman's accent was a bit unexpected for me, since I know her primarily from the cartoons like JLU.
The whole BvS fight could've been avoided if Superman didn't aggressively walk towards Batman and just said his piece standing still after landing, but this version of Superman rarely uses words or his brain.
Kinda like how he just broke the Batmobile in the middle of a destructive car chase just to tell him to stop being Batman and completely ignored the goons with the rocket launcher. He knows Batman is a vigilante. Why is he not curious about the heavily armed goons Batman was chasing? A much better way to handle that scene would've been to show Superman stopping the goons easily and telling Batman he's no longer needed, then flying away without realizing that he just left Batman with the Kryptonite. It's not like they even showed him stealing it from Lexcorp immediately afterwards anyway and it would've cut another minute of the bloated screen time not to show Lex finding it stolen.
My first thought about the spear, other than "how did Batman know to plant it at THAT spot pre-fight" was also "ok, will it be Wonder Woman or Batman who stabs Doomsday?" then Superman does it? Ugh. They just showed that when he fished it out of water, he was so disabled he couldn't even get out of the water by himself. How did he then fly across the city with it immediately after?
He said: "Bruce, I was wrong. We were being played." Bruce already made his mind up.
The water got exposed to kryptonite for a while? I dunno that's not really something I can't suspend my disbelief for. The issue I have is that he thought he had no other solution except sacrificing himself in that moment. Doomsday was changing forms during that moment. If they had made it clear he's invulnerable unless he sheds his skin, then I would have no problem with Clark's sacrifice. But you see Wonder Woman slice its hand so... The immediacy is gone.
Except that line makes no sense to Batman without further explanation, which he never got to.
He could've followed up by standing still and saying "Lex Luthor kidnapped my mom, Martha Kent. He told me I had to kill you or she's dead. Im not sure why he's been trying to make us fight but let's put our differences aside for just tonight. Help me save my mom."
Only because he was walking towards Batman. In every communication training ever, you don't move towards someone who is hostile to you unless you're trying to make things worse.
Even after breaking that device, he KEPT walking forward aggressively. He didn't stop, take a step back to deescalate, then try to say it again.
Stevetopsy
Member
Man, brings back memories of IGN's Three Red Lights podcast back in the day with Brudvig, Clayman, Onyett, and others. Some episodes it would just turn into Lost discussion and them joking and exaggerating the "we gobbbago back!". I never even watched lost at the time and thought it was hilarious.
What do you mean?
Mix Master
Member
Does lois know bruce is bats? his mask was busted when he was on clark
I mean a piece of his mask was gone, but it still doesn't really give away Affleck's face.
What can I say? This version's Superman is cocky.
matrix-cat
Member
The line "You're letting him kill Martha" is ridiculous. Nobody would refer to their own mother by her first name, nobody would just throw out a random name with no other information, and the fact that it actually worked is a perfect example of a deus ex machina. By the logic of the movie, Superman would have zero reason to assume that the name 'Martha' would mean anything to Batman, but the writer couldn't think of any other way to end the fight so he just gave up and wrote Superman the one line that would make Batman stop in that situation. It's about as elegant as "Poochie had to go back to his home planet".
Would it be less silly if he said "You're letting him kill my Mom, mommy or Mother". I don't know, I think it works fine.
It would've felt less clunky and artificial, but I think the whole idea of this resolution would've been pretty damn bad based on how it was set up.
You can't have Batman going around spouting the Cheney doctrine ("we believe there's a one percent chance that he is our enemy we have to take it as an absolute certainty") and then be like "oh wait, you have a mother? you came out of a woman's vagina? well that changes everything, let's hang out sometime".
It humanizes both men and makes them both relate to each other. What better way into your heart then your mother - With the same name. And one of their Mothers is dead and the other is in trouble. I think it's pretty clever and works perfectly as an emotional device.
Humanizing to who?
The audience is already well aware of the fact they have mothers and that one is dead and one is kidnapped.
If it's to Batman then it just make Batman kinda stupid, like, he spend all of the movie up to this point arguing that Superman is too dangerous and can wipe the entire human race and we just can't take a chance here. How does finding out he has a mother (regardless of her name) changes that?
It's not like that he was worried about Superman because he thought he had no parents.
I think it's just really bad writing.
This is pretty much how I saw it ^^
By the way, i dont recall - at what point did Superman know Batman's identity? I'm guessing at the party. If that is the case, why can't we assume that Superman, even as Clark Kent, researched him at least enough to know of Bruce's biggest tragedy: i.e. his parents' murder?
Huh? That's some mental gymnastics. You can't buy that Batman could change his tune when he realizes that Supes mother is in peril. After his Mother was killed? How does it make Batman stupid when he realizes that Superman has the same beating heart as his own. That he's not just this alien creature. That he cares in his dying breath about his mother? That's a stretch to you? Would you rather he said Fuck your stupid mother and kill him.
I mean that's just odd...
captainnapalm
Member
That's interesting. I never thought of it like that. If he knew Bruce's mother name was Martha it would make more sense for him to say it in that moment.
Because let's be honest, if he didn't know, it wouldn't make much sense.
I personally think as an orphan who lost his mother he quickly realized that he was about to do the opposite - to not only rob a mother of her child but also leave a mother to die. After all that he went through as a child I fully believed that such a thing would have taken him off balance and reminded him of his morals. Also, in addition to my post above about how Clark may have researched Bruce, using the name Martha rather than Mother is definitely the smarter option due to the similar name IMO
matrix-cat
Member
Because you shouldn't have to make assumptions to fill holes in a bad script. Maybe Supes x-ray visioned Batman and did some googling on Bruce Wayne, but how hard is it to show that? This movie has two separate scenes where main characters watch .avi files on a USB drive, yet it wastes no time showing how Lex uncovers Superman's secret identity or how Superman uncovers Batman's secret identity.
On the Martha subject, the intent of the scene is obvious, it's just a clumsy resolution that was poorly handled. They needed Batman and Superman to bond, so instead of any shared ideology or values they went with the obscure bit of trivia that their mothers have the same name. In order to make it work in the movie, they need Superman to utter a line that he would have no reason to suspect Batman would respond to, using his own mother's first name, then another character has to run into the scene and explain to Batman that Martha is his mother. It's hamfisted.
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