But that would point towards a more media focused 4K Ps4 with no real need for more power to games. You'd have some updates to the GPU to support decode of 4K blurays, HDMI 2.0 and a UHD drive, but none of that needs to impact game development
PS4K information (~2x GPU power w/ clock+, new CPU, price, tent. Q1 2017)
- Thread starter OsirisBlack
- Start date
But that would point towards a more media focused 4K Ps4 with no real need for more power to games. You'd have some updates to the GPU to support decode of 4K blurays, HDMI 2.0 and a UHD drive, but none of that needs to impact game development
Interesting response. How much does a 10 Teraflop system with 32GBs of RAM cost today?
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
It would be terrible if the Witcher 4 that would come out in 2021 could play on the PS4.
//DEVIL//
Member
If there is indeed a PS4k, do you think they will tell people about it at E3 ? specially if its not coming this year ? they will be pretty much killing their holiday sales as many people will spend a lil more to get the better performance system. As much as I want them to talk about it today before tomorrow, I don't think that makes much sense to a company that has sales target
Marty Chinn
Member
Because if you're short sighted on what the implications could be, that's how things slowly creep in until you realize it's too late to do anything about it. Look at how a minor armor and horse DLC has evolved into $60 season passes on top of full priced games and games being released in iterations.
Crimson_Gold
Member
I agree. A console should get about 6 years of true support and additional support from Indies and titles that are not graphical powerhouses. Let the graphic showcases do their thing on the new hardware
I still don't get what you're worried about because if you felt so strongly about pushing the power of the PS6 or whatever why not just do it & have your game only playable on PS6?
oh yeah that's right because you know it's better to make a game that work on over 100 million consoles than to start over on a new install base that's just a few million.
If there's one thing we can bet the house on it would be that a new PS4 SKU will launch between 'Q4 16 and Q1 '17 that has 4K blu-ray support. Why? Promises to Netflix that 4K support is coming, increasing demand for 4K blu-ray compatibility, hints of new console hardware from AMD, prototypes being circulated to devs.
The potential of a new SKU that also has moderate or above increases in performance is less certain. Are these rumors so confusing because Sony is considering multiple new SKUs? Let's consider these 5 scenarios and rank them for plausibility:
Scenarios involving a new PS4 SKU taking the place of the old
(1a) PS4 with 4K blu-ray, no power enhancement (or just a cpu core unlock)
(1b) PS4 with 4K blu-ray, moderate gpu power enhancement
Scenarios involving a new PS4 SKU being sold alongside the PS4
(2a) PS4 remains the same, new PS4K released with 4k blu-ray and no power enhancement (or just cpu core unlock)
(2b) PS4 remains the same, new PS4K released with 4k blu-ray and moderate gpu power enhancement
(2c) PS4 gets replaced with a new SKU with 4K blu-ray and no power enhancement, as well as another new SKU with 4K blu-ray and moderate or major gpu power enhancements
Which are the most likely scenarios given what we know?
I would rule out (2c) since I can't see how Sony would market the two without an easy 4K branding differentiator. At the same time, can you really see Sony continuing to sell a console that doesn't have 4K blu-ray support? Sony wants all new console adopters to eventually be tempted into new 4K tvs and purchasing 4K "remastered" replacements for all their blu-rays/dvds. Therefore, I don't think they'll leave a non 4k system out on the market for long, which rules out all the of the "along side" scenarios. What seems most likely to me is that scenario 1b is the plan, with a short period of overlap with old SKU to get rid of inventory. Scenario 1a would be similar to the transition from non-mini to minis but I'd say Sony goes the moderate performance route here to ensure against whatever hardware MS and Nintendo have cooking.
The potential of a new SKU that also has moderate or above increases in performance is less certain. Are these rumors so confusing because Sony is considering multiple new SKUs? Let's consider these 5 scenarios and rank them for plausibility:
Scenarios involving a new PS4 SKU taking the place of the old
(1a) PS4 with 4K blu-ray, no power enhancement (or just a cpu core unlock)
(1b) PS4 with 4K blu-ray, moderate gpu power enhancement
Scenarios involving a new PS4 SKU being sold alongside the PS4
(2a) PS4 remains the same, new PS4K released with 4k blu-ray and no power enhancement (or just cpu core unlock)
(2b) PS4 remains the same, new PS4K released with 4k blu-ray and moderate gpu power enhancement
(2c) PS4 gets replaced with a new SKU with 4K blu-ray and no power enhancement, as well as another new SKU with 4K blu-ray and moderate or major gpu power enhancements
Which are the most likely scenarios given what we know?
I would rule out (2c) since I can't see how Sony would market the two without an easy 4K branding differentiator. At the same time, can you really see Sony continuing to sell a console that doesn't have 4K blu-ray support? Sony wants all new console adopters to eventually be tempted into new 4K tvs and purchasing 4K "remastered" replacements for all their blu-rays/dvds. Therefore, I don't think they'll leave a non 4k system out on the market for long, which rules out all the of the "along side" scenarios. What seems most likely to me is that scenario 1b is the plan, with a short period of overlap with old SKU to get rid of inventory. Scenario 1a would be similar to the transition from non-mini to minis but I'd say Sony goes the moderate performance route here to ensure against whatever hardware MS and Nintendo have cooking.
wapplew
Member
Some gonna make exclusive to push adoption rate. Not even first party can make exclusive under forward compatible constrain.
It's not like console got that 21MB camera or 4K OLED screen or 6mm thin full metal body to make it sell like hot cake.
No exclusive games, slow adoption rate, low install base, low support, chicken and egg dilemma will make PS6 or whatever stay cross gen for long long time.
Prisoner KSC2-303
Member
If we are heading towards an iterative model, then the thought of maintaining my library of games for longer certainly appeals. My main concern would be that it tends to point towards forwards compatibility, which means more powerful hardware forever tethered to something outdated; far from bringing the extra power those keen to see a .5 model crave, it'd end up kneecapping the full generational leaps.
I'm still thinking this'll be focussed on media playback though, with minimal gaming benefits; a way to get AV enthusiasts onto the gaming bandwagon and entice a few existing PS4 owners with 4k sets to double dip.
I'm still thinking this'll be focussed on media playback though, with minimal gaming benefits; a way to get AV enthusiasts onto the gaming bandwagon and entice a few existing PS4 owners with 4k sets to double dip.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
They can if the dev makes it compatible with the PS4. But if the game NEEDS to have 20 GBs of RAM to run, then it won't play on the PS4.5
Building in the dongle arguably doesn't make good business sense.
That would create another SKU for the VR headset and further complicate what is needed to utilize VR.
But if this PS4.5 is about to push PS4 games in 4K something that people can't even believe can be done with a small console under $900 & other stuff they have been saying then this method can't be holding games back as bad as people think.
Thread is weird.
Graphics Horse
Member
Sorry if this has been brought up before, but in theory could they utilise product binning for this 14/16nm chip and use it for both regular PS4 and PS4k models going forward? This sounds like a great way to deal with low yields to me but I'm not knowledgable in these things.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
How much RAM do you think will come in the PS4.5?
for the main GPU & CPU I guess it will be the same & maybe have some embedded ram on the 2nd GPU/DPU
GamerMax73
Member
If there was anything I could be confident in taking an educated guess at - there will be no 2nd GPU and no separate pool of RAM, not in PS4.5 at any rate. PS5 is possible if BC wasn't a concern.
The current rumor is for a more powerful GPU component on the existing APU, possibly 2x faster than the existing PS4 GPU. Additionally the rumor suggests the possibility of a faster CPU component, so an all round upgrade of the APU using a 14nm process. The main purpose appears to be to support 4K gaming - probably up-scaling from 2K. The rumor suggests full BC with PS4 and all games going forward to support PS4 - forward compatibility. If this is right then possibly more RAM is required so PS4 can maximise the existing 8Gb, so possibly 12Gb for PS4.5
A possible PS4.5 spec might be - 14nm APU with 8 Puma cores with 30 Tonga Compute Units on the GPU and 12Gb of GDDR5X Ram. But then it wouldn't surprise me if they stuck with Jaguar cores die shrunk to 14nm, up the clock frequency of both the CPU and GPU and add a few more Hawaii Compute Unites and stuck with the same 8Gb GDDR5.
In terms of 2nd GPU's or a split memory architecture, I don't know. I really don't think well see anything like that on PS5 either.
It will be the same.
8GB is more than enough.
That might increase the bandwidth using higher clocked modules.
PLASTICA-MAN
Member
Either 16 or at least 12if the rumours of 2x the power are true. For 4K gaming you need great amount of VRAM. with HBM/HBM2 or GDDR5X it is possible to get big loads of VRAM in a GPU.
If i were to guess...for PS4K, they are going to use roughly twice the amount of GPU power...the same amount of RAM but GDDR5X instead of GDDR5 so the bandwidth is higher, and the direct successor to Jaguar, which came out at a bad time to begin with.
I think this is an iterative console that will still be dependent on the PS4's base specs, and may possibly be a one time thing to extend this generation longer than it otherwise would have been with the single PS4 SKU
I think this is an iterative console that will still be dependent on the PS4's base specs, and may possibly be a one time thing to extend this generation longer than it otherwise would have been with the single PS4 SKU
You have your thoughts & I have mine & I think it's a 2nd GPU that will have all the updated specs for 4K
We know they arent going to have 4K gaming across the board, to belive them on that is ridiculous. They will at most give the option to output to 4K like they do with everything else via the scaler.
And it was only in regards to the GPU that was twice as powerful, that is not the overall unit. I think they will downclock it eventually so that its 70% or 75% of PS4 and not twice, in order to give leeway to the other components
GamerMax73
Member
Wouldn't that have a major impact in power draw, API support, PS4 compatibility, etc. It'd be a radical departure from the existing unified RAM architecture.
While i understand your concern, there is possibility of them not doing this in the worst way, and so you should hold your indignation until they reveal it.
If they can show that PS4 owners won't be intentionally compromised for the premium unit, it should be fine right? Since supposedly this would be priced out of the current PS4's range...i think the original PS4 would get a 50 or 100$ price cut to even further split the difference.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Got to say onQ that I'm surprised you think it has a second GPU. Much simpler and cheaper to go for a upgraded APU.
To add, I'm surprised Osiris talks of the CPU maybe being upgraded when dev kits are already in first party hands and maybe select third parties.
I'm sure Sony had the final dev kits for PS4 out by March/April 2013 even if that was just first party so think any CPU decision had been made some time before.
To add, I'm surprised Osiris talks of the CPU maybe being upgraded when dev kits are already in first party hands and maybe select third parties.
I'm sure Sony had the final dev kits for PS4 out by March/April 2013 even if that was just first party so think any CPU decision had been made some time before.
Final dev kits didn't go out until summer for the PS4, I believe.
I'm not expecting a second GPU either. I think a better CPU is in the cards but nothing too fancy.
Wouldn't be surprised at some extra RAM or at least more RAM bandwidth.
Negotiator
Banned
Regarding RAM and BC: if future consoles have 32GB of RAM, will Blu-Ray discs (46GB) suffice?
What if the PS5 doesn't have a disc drive? Will BC apply to digital games only? Will they offer an external Blu-Ray drive option?
What if the PS5 doesn't have a disc drive? Will BC apply to digital games only? Will they offer an external Blu-Ray drive option?
Maybe like a 1-2GB slower memory for OS opening more for games to use which might be where a performance gain is seen
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
If you guys are correct then, there's no way the PS4.5 will be able to play all of the games that comes out for the PS5.
I've always liked this idea. I know the PS4's secondary processor for background tasks does some of that for CPU usage. Could see an improvement there as well.
It would still be unified , the CPU & GPU still have their own embedded memory in the PS4.
How are we supposed to know?
THE:MILKMAN
Member
I remember the game sites reporting leaked pictures of the dev kit and FCC filings but there is also a Quantic Dream studio tour on Youtube that shows the dev kit that was uploaded in March 2013 and they are second party.
Why would it have to play all the games for the PS5?
This is about the PS4 , PS4K & whatever other PS4 they have after that.
They had dev kits, just not final ones.
No way there's a second GPU.
It would be a single new APU with twice as many Compute Units / shaders on the GPU and possibly a higher clockspeed. The CPU will either be the same as PS4, or a higher-clocked variant (maybe Puma) at most. PS4K's hardware will likely not support native 4K / 2160p game resolution, will simply do upscaling from 1080p. Games that take advantage of the extra power would likely have higher framerates / more effects, etc, but still be rendered in native 1080p.
The only aspect of PS4K that would be true 4K is for Ultra HD blu-ray movies.
Wishmaster92
Member
I would say either 8gb gddr5x or 12gb gddr5. 16 seems like a lot and more expensive imo
Negotiator
Banned
We're all speculating here.
BD-ROM has 45GB (or GiB if you prefer) of usable free space for games (1GB is reserved for the firmware update).
If the PS5 has 32GB of RAM, then 45GB seems too little for next-gen games...
There are 2 possible solutions:
1) Hybrid storage: keep discs as an authentication method, utilize those 45GB for half the game and download the rest of it via the internet. Some games already do that in this generation for the MP portion (Halo MCC, Uncharted 4).
2) Digital-only. This renders BC unusable for PS4 physical games, unless they offer an external Blu-Ray drive option (highly unlikely, since they didn't do it for the PSP discs with the Vita).
I'm still expecting something more advanced than a traditional upscale. I'm guessing Sony will be having devs focus on improving things like AA and AF and maintaining a native 1080p presentation in order to make sure whatever the process is looks good.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I guess you are right. Maybe it doesn't.
PeterLegend
Member
This thread is getting crazy now, 2 GPUs in a console? LOL
Sony still wants to make a profit on this thing
Sony still wants to make a profit on this thing
Negotiator
Banned
It reminds me of misterXmedia's conspiracy theory about the 2nd hidden dGPU.
geordiemp
Member
Sony would be wise to just wait a little bit for Zen than going Puma surely ? Maybe thats why the release is confused betewen 2016 and 2017, to zen or not to zen ?
Not even sure where it came from to be honest haha
THE:MILKMAN
Member
I'm sure they weren't final but the below dev kit surely is using the APU given the form factor?
All I'm saying re: Osiris' CPU comments is that I find it unlikely 7-11 months out that Sony are still considering whether to upgrade the CPU section of the APU because I think devs have kits (not necessarily final!) with the new APU already in it.
They aren't offering iterative consoles perpetually, this is just for the PS4..hence "PS4.5" its still an extension of the PS4.
So expecting PS4.5 to play PS5 games makes no sense.
stan423321
Member
This is an interesting question. Here's what I think. They are not going to try pushing digital after XB180. They may, however, try something like USB memory if that goes insanely cheap.
It should be mentioned that Blu-Ray XL specification exists, as well as a bunch of other experimental "denser" disc formats that didn't take off because, well, people are finer with downloading in other industries. They can always pull out that.
It should also be mentioned that at some point, one would expect developers to stop pushing the size of textures for once. There are other uses of RAM after all. Completely persistent overworlds, maybe?
Negotiator
Banned
2017 might also mean HBM2 as well and thus make the console even smaller than it already is:
bitbydeath
Member
Well traditional upscaling wouldn't require any changes to GPU so the question begs if not 4K then what is the purpose of having all that extra power?