Vicetrailia
Banned
Yo, their (RocketJump) videos are excellent. "A Bad Video" is HILARIOUS!
First look at ScarJo as the Major in Ghost in the Shell
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Yo, their (RocketJump) videos are excellent. "A Bad Video" is HILARIOUS!
Messofanego
Banned
Max Landis: If you're mad at Ghost In The Shell, you don't know how the movie industry works
Not surprising and pretty similar reasoning to Adi Shankar explaining why Dredd 2 won't happen. It's the whole system when you have big money on the line and you want to be profitable.
He mentions there are now only 10-15 male stars, 2 of which are black (Will Smith, Denzel Washington), and 5 female stars all of whom are white.
Much more risk-averse now compared to 80s and 90s when we DID have Asian A-list actors who could front movies (Jackie Chan, Jet Li) or even Lucy Liu.
Not surprising and pretty similar reasoning to Adi Shankar explaining why Dredd 2 won't happen. It's the whole system when you have big money on the line and you want to be profitable.
He mentions there are now only 10-15 male stars, 2 of which are black (Will Smith, Denzel Washington), and 5 female stars all of whom are white.
Much more risk-averse now compared to 80s and 90s when we DID have Asian A-list actors who could front movies (Jackie Chan, Jet Li) or even Lucy Liu.
ExitPlanetDust
Member
I'm sorry but even if you can get over the white washing, Johansson is wrong for the role. There are plenty of other recognizable actresses, white, Asian, or otherwise who can bring audiences into the theater for a cyberpunk film. If they're approaching this as a big budget Bay-fest they are fools. In that case yeah, casting the Black Widow as your lead probably is the only way out of this alive. I hope they at least have Disney's merchandising plans to go along with it.
Medium budget with some existential dialogue and 3 ultra violent action scenes that go hard with practical effects and you'll have another Matrix that nobody saw coming. Shit, cast Rooney Mara after some time at the gym. She's far more unsettling and doll-like than pouty-lips Johansson. And she doesn't appear to object to doing nude scenes.
Medium budget with some existential dialogue and 3 ultra violent action scenes that go hard with practical effects and you'll have another Matrix that nobody saw coming. Shit, cast Rooney Mara after some time at the gym. She's far more unsettling and doll-like than pouty-lips Johansson. And she doesn't appear to object to doing nude scenes.
he man I just did a google search and had to find a pic without the puppet masters nipples cause it never wears anything
hows this?
"You wa mad?"
"No, just shook."
That's good descriptive coverage of the problem, but I think Landis is not being critical enough of the logic in the film industry. I agree with what he says that we shouldn't be mad at people and instead be mad at the system, but I also think that he lets off the film industry off the hook too much. The film industry are the ones that perpetuate this sort of hegemonic American whiteness and they irrationally run on this immoral capitalistic logic that presumes "racism sells" and therefore "we to double down on white actors to recoup our investments." Landis is so correct that they all are ruled by fear, but it is a fear driven by self-fulfilling analytics and capitalistic reductionism. The film industry has the power and capacity to intervene in this system and the people in charge should intervene. Fear of not making bank is ridiculous and relies on racist assumptions.
Also I chuckled @ "we don't even have Lucy Liu anymore!"
Messofanego
Banned
Yeah, there is some definite defeatist self-fulfilling prophecy going on. Reminded of "pink it and shrink it" model in games for girls. I'm surprised he didn't bring up the outlier Fast and Furious as a franchise that started in the 2000s and because of its POC draw along with being competent car action movies, brought in a lot of POC audiences. Like, Furious 7's audience was 75% non-white.
He's really really right and he'd know more than anyone else.
But I thought of something since yes smaller movies aren't doing so well.
Isn't that why TV/Cable TV is filling that void including breakout stars?
Or are they not transferring from TV to movie star as easy as they used to?
What's the cause of there not being any stars like Jackie Chan anymore, though? I suppose they were always typecast into martial arts movies, and those went out of fashion.
I don't really buy the argument that Hollywood is intentionally racist. They're not interested in race, they're interested in money. If the prevailing culture is one where nobody wants to see Asian leads, they conform to that culture. They mirror and amplify society's attitudes instead of creating them.
I don't really buy the argument that Hollywood is intentionally racist. They're not interested in race, they're interested in money. If the prevailing culture is one where nobody wants to see Asian leads, they conform to that culture. They mirror and amplify society's attitudes instead of creating them.
So... they're racist. It doesn't matter if they have a reason to be racist, they're still racist.
T
Transhuman
Unconfirmed Member
Guess they're doing things reverse chronologically
Well, yeah, but not in the same way KKK is racist.
The producer or director who makes the call probably doesn't believe in white supremacy. They believe ScarJo will make more money than any currently active Japanese-American actress, and they're probably right. As Landis said, it's the system rather than the individuals.
Racism is the default attitude of human beings (as much as many loathe to associate with racism - it is after all a pejorative). It takes effort to fight against the prevailing norms and engage in a way that reduces it.
What is your point? That doesn't mean it's not a problem. Racism isn't binary. You're not either KKK or non racist. There are more things to do to people than physical harm.Well, yeah, but not in the same way KKK is racist.
actually it isn't
I didn't say it's not a problem. I'm not really making some grand point on anything, just musing on it. The KKK is immoral, Hollywood is amoral. But I guess you could say taking an amoral stance on an issue like racism is immoral...
it really is though.
Consider that racism occurs on a gradient and that the very neuro-cognitive makeup of humans mean that they're fearful against the unfamiliar and you get a recipe where people are by default in many situations going to be racist to some extent.
Unless a person grows up in a community that has perfect multi-racial and multi-culturalism at a small scale (i.e. school & immediate families), this will always be true.
We'd intuitively like to think that racists are somehow more guilty then 'non-racists' and actively seek to dissosciate from them... but that belies the reality of the work needed to reduce the degree to which one is racist. It's not enough to explictly deny been racist, and to shy away from using racist language - one must also examine the context of one's actions towards all races (not just in context of the races that draw attention).
Modest Mauser
Member
Racism is a learned behavior.
The Max Landis video that Messofanego posted received a good rebuttal:
https://twitter.com/amandarin/status/722258223370121216
We can also look up UCLA's recent diversity report to see how money does not equal homogeneity.
https://twitter.com/amandarin/status/722258223370121216
We can also look up UCLA's recent diversity report to see how money does not equal homogeneity.
Okay, but his point still stands. A-list actors or the property itself attract the largest amounts of consumers - which is crucial for these big budget movies to be successful. Now considering Ghost in the Shell isn't the biggest IP in the world, it's really going to have to rely on its cast. While diversity may not turn people away, an unfamiliar cast might, and can you really name one A-list Asian actress that could play have played the role? Of course it's an awful and shitty thinking process, but these movies aren't your small-medium sized box-office affair, you can see why some studios play it safe
Great contribution
EdibleKnife
Member
How do you expect actors to get on the A-list if they're never given opportunities? No one should have batted an eye if they actually went looking for an Asian actress to play the Asian main character of the series but they didn't even try even when given the chance to do something different.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Seriously, that's why the question of "well what A-list Asian actor would YOU recommend" is bullshit - it's used to justify never casting Asian actors. And then because you decided to not cast an Asian actor because imaginary audiences hate non-white actors, there then are no A-list Asian actors to recommend for another movie.
How is he wrong? You're thinking "RISK AVERSE!" When the thing is, they could hire Asians and maybe have a hit. The problem as Landis (and others that agree and admit as well) is that Hollywood is too scared of taking huge risks and allowing minorities to see if they want to watch films that have same skin-tone/races as them.
As Landis' rebuttal also shows, there's films that do get audiences. While Paul Walker may have brought in white folks for the Fast and the Furious 1-5, the Fast and the Furious 7 had a diverse cast AND IIRC broke records for Universal at the time and brought in a diverse target audience. Ghost in the Shell could do the same even if they kept ScarJo as the lead/Motoko. There is nothing wrong with that, but casting an all-white character build-up isn't helping middle-low racial stars get into that "pantheon" with ScarJo. Hollywood has to get multi-racial casts out there to get those other races names and faces recognized to bring them star power.
Will Smith "started small." But this is what Hollywood forgets and tries to keep white "go-to" stars.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
It's a little difficult to become a-list, or even b-list, without any opportunities to actually propel you there. That's on Hollywood.
Oh it's completely self-fulfilling and f*cking sucks. But with such questionable profitability already, I don't think Ghost in the Shell should be expected to be that movie, you can perhaps see their thinking behind casting an A-list actress, rather than casting someone new and unheard of. Of course, you're right, every studio has this same mentality - which is where the problem lies, no one is really given an opportunity. I guess we just wait for a movie with either a sound concept or a recognisable property that doesn't need to concern itself with its cast, to hopefully be successful and bring more diversity to the A-list table.
My line of thinking was, strange risky IP, maybe not going to sell based on its name - so they cast a recognisable Alist lead to carry the film. There weren't any A-list celebrities of Asian decent, and very few females for that matter, so they cast Scar..... but if the bolded is true then f*ck this film! (there's no excuse for the rest of the cast)
neurosisxeno
Member
Thanks to streaming taking off there is a massive influx of independent films out there. Literally hundreds of low budget films that give hundreds or even thousands of actors and actresses the opportunity to shine. A lot of actors have used it to either expand their repertoire, to experiment with roles, and even to gain exposure. A lot of actors that are now big names started out doing a lot of these films, or got their big breaks because of them--Brie Larson comes to mind.
A Link to the Past
Banned
But we've seen movies cast relatively smaller actors, typically white, in big roles. Guardians of the Galaxy propelled Chris Pratt to being a big deal in Hollywood, and Guardians of the Galaxy didn't exactly have recognizability for it either. I'd argue that people probably knew GitS more than GotG, mainly because of the two films and two TV series. They aren't worried about casting fresh blood in middling/smaller movies, they're worried about casting non-white actors.
Yes! What a strange risky IP with a diverse fanbase of fans that even had a small (in Japan, granted) television series and a localized AND put into theater major motion picture animation. WHAT A SMALL IP!
Okay, and? Does this mean they can't cast an Asian Batou? A black Togusa? A latino Aramaki?
Nothing is preventing them from going with ScarJo. Just like nothing is stopping them from filling in side characters with other races to give those minority stars a chance to get recognizable and you know, maybe lead another film later?
neurosisxeno
Member
Chris Pratt had been a regular on Parks and Rec for 5 years before he signed on to do GotG and Lego Movie. In Guardians they also cast him alongside Glenn Close, Bradley Cooper and Zoe Saldana, as well as Lee Pace and Josh Brolin technically. Plus GotG had Rocket Raccoon, people were going to go see it no matter what.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
People were going to see it because it had catchy toons and it said Marvel.
You've basically answered your own question
While maybe not "small", it's not Star Wars, Jurassic Park or Jungle Book. I'm assuming this will have a comparable budget. Also the motion picture came out 10 years ago and made hardly anything in the US box office. You must have misread my post, I'm only defending their decision for casting Scar, and I'm agreeing that the lack of an overall diverse cast is disgusting! (I was not aware of this before)
neurosisxeno
Member
Basically. They marketed that film perfectly, and it really paid off for them.
Half those actors aren't even on-screen anywhere, and the other half sure as fuck aren't selling tickets on their own. "AW SHIT DAWG! GLENN CLOSE IS IN GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY?! DAY 1!!!"
And Pratt being a secondary character on a low-key NBC comedy series hardly screams "star power".
A Link to the Past
Banned
Supporting character on Parks & Rec is officially the bar you have to meet to become a huge Hollywood star
Seriously, that's such a silly post. Your other argument is silly too, because by saying that having Bradley Cooper in the movie helps elevate it, you basically provide the perfect way to have an Asian lead - cast ScarJo as someone else:
Seriously, that's such a silly post. Your other argument is silly too, because by saying that having Bradley Cooper in the movie helps elevate it, you basically provide the perfect way to have an Asian lead - cast ScarJo as someone else:
Bobby Roberts
Banned
This is really the most succinct way of putting it w/r/t the "A-list" theory in 2016.
People don't really give a shit who is in it. They give a shit that it looks interesting.
neurosisxeno
Member
Zoe Saldana is the second most important character in the movie, and it doesn't matter if they physically appear (in the case of Bradley Cooper and Vin Diesel), their names still appear on the poster and in the commercials. Also, Pratt wasn't a secondary character in Parks and Rec by the time he was cast, and Season 4/5 of PaR consistently pulled in 3-4m viewers. He had also been in supporting roles in Moneyball and Zero Dark Thirty--2 Oscar nominated fillms--but 2013 when he was cast as well. No matter how you spin it, Chris Pratt had at least some recognition by the time GotG dropped.
Compare that to the person the Internet has raised banners for to replace ScarJo, Rinko Kikuchi. Can you name even 1 movie she was in off the top of your head? The only 2 I recognize from her filmography are Babel (where she was nominated for an Oscar, but her name didn't even appear on the movie poster) which was critically acclaimed and saw modest success, and Pacific Rim, which a lot of nerds really liked but was more renowned for its Robots than the acting.
There's also the part that a lot of people are ignoring--this is going to be a physically demanding role, and the number of actors and actresses that you have access to for this stuff dramatically shifts when you factor that in. ScarJo absolutely has the body for the role, and the hair works, it's just that she's not Asian. Compare that to the proposed Rinko Kikuchi, and she is Asian, but doesn't really have the physique to match Kusanagi. She's been forced to stay in incredibly good shape for her frequent appearances in Marvel films, so no matter how demanding the stunts are, she's probably up for it. I think it's a good and rather logical casting to be honest.
As I said, had you bothered to check, he wasn't a supporting cast member at that point (assuming you mean supporting as in recurring but not main cast). The argument isn't "Guardian's of the Galaxy sold on the back of Chris Pratt!", it's that Guardians had a well rounded cast and excellent marketing, as well as a talking animated Raccoon--voiced by a recognizable Oscar Nominee. Ghost in the Shell is an equally niche IP, but if you stack it with a ton of unknown actors you're risking certain failure--something nobody who is a fan of the source material should hope for.
A Link to the Past
Banned
This is getting absolutely silly. Chris Pratt didn't get picked because he was a big deal, he got picked because the idea of a movie needing an A-list star is simply a defense for status quo buffoonery. He was the right person for the role, and they didn't say "but recognizability!" And this sure as hell isn't a case of it being a low-risk situation - Guardians of the Galaxy was a minor gamble by Disney, and if it failed, it may have ended up causing them to walk their shit back (none of their recent Marvel movies have failed really yet they're still doing as much). Marvel was not yet a proven "automatic money-maker" yet, Guardians of the Galaxy is what helped cement it as such (IIRC, a lot of people were keeping low expectations for it at the box office).
The reason why Chris Pratt is in Jurassic World, the reason why he's in The Magnificent Seven, the reason why tons of people were clamoring for him to be the new Indiana Jones (AKA, one of the most recognizable film characters ever made), is because he was given the opportunity to break out. People didn't watch Parks & Rec, see this schlub, and say "Indiana Jones, right there." How's about we give an Asian actress the opportunity to be the next Indiana Jones (Lindiana Janes!?), instead of pretending like movies need a recognizable actor or actress?
EDIT: Why did you not respond to my question as to why Chris Pratt was allowed to be a star in a film elevated by other, bigger stars like Bradley Cooper and Zoe Saldana, but as far as GitS goes, ScarJo has to be the lead actress? Why do you only selectively allow the concept of having a well-known supporting cast? It seems like you're applying a double standard to try to justify the idea that a film will suffer without an A-list star leading it.
Oh, and I'll say this:
Amy Poehler being the star of Parks & Recs is not remotely adequate to make her an A-list Hollywood star, potential or otherwise. It is not nearly impressive enough to me or nearly anyone else that Chris Pratt is a major character in a sitcom.
Precisely. The data that suggests that movies need these big A-list stars is invented by the people casting the A-list stars. It's easier to pile your money onto a few (white) people than it is to "take chances".
The reason why Chris Pratt is in Jurassic World, the reason why he's in The Magnificent Seven, the reason why tons of people were clamoring for him to be the new Indiana Jones (AKA, one of the most recognizable film characters ever made), is because he was given the opportunity to break out. People didn't watch Parks & Rec, see this schlub, and say "Indiana Jones, right there." How's about we give an Asian actress the opportunity to be the next Indiana Jones (Lindiana Janes!?), instead of pretending like movies need a recognizable actor or actress?
EDIT: Why did you not respond to my question as to why Chris Pratt was allowed to be a star in a film elevated by other, bigger stars like Bradley Cooper and Zoe Saldana, but as far as GitS goes, ScarJo has to be the lead actress? Why do you only selectively allow the concept of having a well-known supporting cast? It seems like you're applying a double standard to try to justify the idea that a film will suffer without an A-list star leading it.
Oh, and I'll say this:
Amy Poehler being the star of Parks & Recs is not remotely adequate to make her an A-list Hollywood star, potential or otherwise. It is not nearly impressive enough to me or nearly anyone else that Chris Pratt is a major character in a sitcom.
Precisely. The data that suggests that movies need these big A-list stars is invented by the people casting the A-list stars. It's easier to pile your money onto a few (white) people than it is to "take chances".
PatThePassive
Member
Well see you all in a couple months when a trailer is released to argue over the exact same shit and then a couple months after that to talk about how shit the movie is.
Do me a favor in those future threads and don't use the failure of the movie as if its evidence that the casting of a white lead isn't thematically appropriate. Its seems like a fact that this production was doomed with the people behind the scenes
In a universe with the 95 movie it is completely believable that Motokos artificial body is white(without the 95 movie I would agree that the lead shouldn't be white but we don't live in that parallel sadder universe)
Do me a favor in those future threads and don't use the failure of the movie as if its evidence that the casting of a white lead isn't thematically appropriate. Its seems like a fact that this production was doomed with the people behind the scenes
In a universe with the 95 movie it is completely believable that Motokos artificial body is white(without the 95 movie I would agree that the lead shouldn't be white but we don't live in that parallel sadder universe)
neurosisxeno
Member
I must have missed the thread full of outrage for the Attack on Titan live-action movies that cast a bunch of Japanese actors as Europeans.
I absolutely think the movie was white-washed, but only so it could actually get made in Hollywood. With the aforementioned Attack on Titan, it was a Japanese company handling it, and their budget was substantially lower. If you want movies with budgets upwards of $100-200m to be made, you need to secure funding, and that means Producers and studios have to foot the bill. These are the people that think names sell movies, and the more history you have in the business, the more people know you. Chris Pratt didn't make a perfect Peter Quill, but he made a good enough one, and he probably knew the right people (since him and his wife spent each year at the Emmy's for their "B-tier" Shitcom with industry insiders).
Name recognition doesn't only apply to the public, it's a basic concept within Hollywood, and Networking is a very important part of career building. It's why certain actors/actresses vanish, and others somehow keep getting roles (LOOKIN AT YOU NICK CAGE) despite being terrible. GotG was definitely a gamble for Disney too. Yes, Marvel had been a reliable revenue stream, but if GotG had been X-Men 3\Spider-Man 3\Daredevil levels of bad, it would have absolutely damaged their brand and impact. Through clever marketing and playing to their strengths they basically offset the risk and made a wildly successful movie.
I absolutely think the movie was white-washed, but only so it could actually get made in Hollywood. With the aforementioned Attack on Titan, it was a Japanese company handling it, and their budget was substantially lower. If you want movies with budgets upwards of $100-200m to be made, you need to secure funding, and that means Producers and studios have to foot the bill. These are the people that think names sell movies, and the more history you have in the business, the more people know you. Chris Pratt didn't make a perfect Peter Quill, but he made a good enough one, and he probably knew the right people (since him and his wife spent each year at the Emmy's for their "B-tier" Shitcom with industry insiders).
Name recognition doesn't only apply to the public, it's a basic concept within Hollywood, and Networking is a very important part of career building. It's why certain actors/actresses vanish, and others somehow keep getting roles (LOOKIN AT YOU NICK CAGE) despite being terrible. GotG was definitely a gamble for Disney too. Yes, Marvel had been a reliable revenue stream, but if GotG had been X-Men 3\Spider-Man 3\Daredevil levels of bad, it would have absolutely damaged their brand and impact. Through clever marketing and playing to their strengths they basically offset the risk and made a wildly successful movie.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Haha wow, a whataboutism
Hollywood isn't lacking non-white actors because the people getting into acting in America are overwhelmingly white, it's lacking non-white actors because Hollywood doesn't care about non-white actors.
Chris Pratt doesn't become A-list if he isn't white. He doesn't get the opportunity to carry a film if he isn't white. He's a solid actor, funny guy, but his whiteness was a huge leg up. If their concerns were simply that they want to get a return on their investment, I'd assume we'd see a lot of studios operating in this fashion. Chris Pratt is far from the only example of a big movie giving a non-A-list actor a chance to carry it.
Considering that whitewashing gets a ton of negative press for a movie and the fact that movies with a greater level of diversity do better than ones without, I would absolutely argue that whitewashing is part of why the film may inevitably fail.
Hollywood isn't lacking non-white actors because the people getting into acting in America are overwhelmingly white, it's lacking non-white actors because Hollywood doesn't care about non-white actors.
Chris Pratt doesn't become A-list if he isn't white. He doesn't get the opportunity to carry a film if he isn't white. He's a solid actor, funny guy, but his whiteness was a huge leg up. If their concerns were simply that they want to get a return on their investment, I'd assume we'd see a lot of studios operating in this fashion. Chris Pratt is far from the only example of a big movie giving a non-A-list actor a chance to carry it.
Considering that whitewashing gets a ton of negative press for a movie and the fact that movies with a greater level of diversity do better than ones without, I would absolutely argue that whitewashing is part of why the film may inevitably fail.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Parks & Rec is actually a pretty good example of how bullshit the concept of "A-List" even is. Parks & Rec only exists because Amy Poehler agrees to be in it, and it lasts as long as it does because she powers it. She's 100% the face and star of that show.
She is not A-list
The fourth-or-fifth billed supporting cast member of the show gets jacked, gets cast in a sci-fi action movie, and is now being forced into the Harrison Ford template whether he fits it or not.
The only people in the industry who are unconvinced of the mere concept of non-white or female actors' ability to carry a movie are the white male executives hiring them.
Everyone else is fuckin' on-board already, and has been for awhile now.
I must have missed the thread that turned GAF into a Japanese message board, discussing Japanese movies and Japanese pop culture.
neurosisxeno
Member
Pretty sure JRPG is the most commonly used word around here...
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