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[Red Devil]

I hope Sony is listening to this feedback and decides to not release the PS4.5. I'm not a jealous PS4 owner. I have a nice gaming PC, so I really wouldn't need to upgrade if Sony did release it. I just don't want them to make a stupid decision after doing so many things right to get the PS4 where it is today. Sony will probably lose money by releasing it. PS4.5 won't make much profit if they plan on still selling the existing PS4 SKU.

Well, the R&D money has been spent and likely developers have the devkits on their hands already so it might be a little too late to change their mind on it.

hyrule Warriors

Sure, but what other games are there like that?

And as it's, Hyrule Warriors on Wii U wasn't a masterpiece in terms of performance compared to other Wii U games, Hyrule Warriors Legends case was to be expected since its announcement.

 

[Bots are better than you]

Sure, but what other games are there like that?

And as it's, Hyrule Warriors on Wii U wasn't a masterpiece in terms of performance compared to other Wii U games, Hyrule Warriors Legends case was to be expected since its announcement.

Smash Bros.? No Miiverse on OG 3DS, system needs to restart when closing the game, compatibility requirement for the content/fighters led to the removal of such, missing/adapted features between OG 3DS, N3DS and Wii U.

 

[Red Devil]

Smash Bros.? No Miiverse on OG 3DS, system needs to restart when closing the game, compatibility requirement for the content/fighters led to the removal of such, missing/adapted features between OG 3DS, N3DS and Wii U.

Lacking Miiverse and restating when closing the game, I get it. But the rest? How is that comparable to Hyrule Warriors Legends case?

 

[ninjablade]

I can't see what benefit this would have to developers. The PS4 is already selling gang busters, and their not going to sell any more copies of their games because of the PS4K. If anything they'll just be giving themselves more work, effort, cost and less time, to cater to a consumer base that would have existed either way, only without requiring all the added effort.

It's not like they actually genuinely have much more "creative scope" either, because they're still being held back by the PS4. The only thing they'll likely be getting more creative with is extra graphical bells and whistles, resolution and/or performance.

I can see a nice benefit to many developers, there are some games that are already struggling to run on ps4, some developers are very ambitious, and want there vision as they intended to get to as much people as possible, and again porting ps4 to ps4k could be as simple as switching a switch, the porting process might be a real simple and quick process that costs very little.

 

[Raylan]

I can't see what benefit this would have to developers. The PS4 is already selling gang busters, and their not going to sell any more copies of their games because of the PS4K. If anything they'll just be giving themselves more work, effort, cost and less time, to cater to a consumer base that would have existed either way, only without requiring all the added effort.

It's not like they actually genuinely have much more "creative scope" either, because they're still being held back by the PS4. The only thing they'll likely be getting more creative with is extra graphical bells and whistles, resolution and/or performance.

So some devs do have more 'creative scope" with the PS4K.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

That doesn't make any sense if developers are already working on PS4 games to begin with. They are still optimizing for PS4, and using the same code on PS4K by default because its the exact same components except upgraded. There is no optimization effort necessary beyond even putting the PS4 code on the PS4K. The added power will allow stabler framerate by default

You can't build a game for lower console then just tack on effects and higher quality models. They will be made for the high end machine and then scaled back for PS4.

There would be literally no point to the PS4K if the games didn't look better, Sony wouldn't allow it.

 

[Bots are better than you]

Lacking Miiverse and restating when closing the game, I get it. But the rest? How is that comparable to Hyrule Warriors Legends case?

Well, due to parity between two systems and one incremental update of one of these systems, they had to cut content (Ice Climbers), adapt content (Pokemon Trainer with changeable fighters Charizard, Squirtel, the grass starter -> Charizard as a single fighter) and adapt features, to have the game running in a somewhat acceptable state. Same with Hyrule Warriors, made changes to the game to have it somehow running "ok" on N3DS, but still pretty bad on OG 3DS.

 

[Leyasu]

Yep. I had the same reaction.



Battle of the Sources, brah!

Man can't neogafs ultra, super insider Thuway just get in here and clear up the nonsense please?? The guy is an insider legend that has all the info right.........

 

[MistBreeze]

This is expected for consoles in x86 CPUs architecture era

Expect console models upgrades to be more common in future

( easy of the shelf parts to assimble, cheap to make, easy to code for )

Also expect devs to become lazyer ( easy pc ports )

 

[Kysen]

How is having 2 PS4 versions out more of a pain in the ass than to having to make a PS3 and PS4 version of a game? What about in the PC space where you have multiple configs you have to account for?

 

[RealityCheque]

I can't see what benefit this would have to developers. The PS4 is already selling gang busters, and their not going to sell any more copies of their games because of the PS4K. If anything they'll just be giving themselves more work, effort, cost and less time, to cater to a consumer base that would have existed either way, only without requiring all the added effort.

It's not like they actually genuinely have much more "creative scope" either, because they're still being held back by the PS4. The only thing they'll likely be getting more creative with is extra graphical bells and whistles, resolution and/or performance.

Yep its like the answer to a question that nobody asked. Colin's thoughts on them waiting until 2018 and going for it then make a lot of sense. Full BC and a 5 year cycle seems more sensible and is more palatable for a lot of people.

Secondly if the specs are genuine then I'm not sure they can achieve $399, $499 seems more likely if it's using Polaris (as DF suggests). Which pushes it further away from mass adoption and makes the whole exercise seem even more confusing. Devs will have to do more work and incur more costs for a product that can only be fully used by a small segment of the market.

There's something else I must be missing, maybe its so they can double down on VR, maybe the Sony corporation wants to use it as a trojan horse for UHD discs. I don't know, but when sony is doing so well and there's no genuine desire for this outside of the hardcore, it's just a very hard to understand the thinking behind it.

 

[Opinionatedfish]

I would just release a PS4.5 enhanced SKU at a later date and use PS4 SKU sales to fund the extra effort. Also, make digital users pay an upgrade fee to take advantage of frame rate locks, enhanced texture work and a slight resolution bump. I don't know what the "Neo" contract issues are yet though.

 

[Red Devil]

Well, due to parity between two systems and one incremental update of one of these systems, they had to cut content (Ice Climbers), adapt content (Pokemon Trainer with changeable fighters Charizard, Squirtel, the grass starter -> Charizard as a single fighter) and adapt features, to have the game running in a somewhat acceptable state. Same with Hyrule Warriors, made changes to the game to have it somehow running "ok" on N3DS, but still pretty bad on OG 3DS.

Yeah as I guessed, wrong example... The parity issue with Super Smash Bros. was between 3DS and Wii U not 3DS and New 3DS... The situation between those two isn't really comparable.

 

[ActWan]

Who is?

 

[notaskwid]

You can't build a game for lower console then just tack on effects and higher quality models. They will be made for the high end machine and then scaled back for PS4.

There would be literally no point to the PS4K if the games didn't look better, Sony wouldn't allow it.

I'm going to make a "crazy" prediction and say that, at least at the beginning, most games wont look better. The n3ds is, relatively speaking, a biggest jump than this and only a handfull of gamed take real advantage of it, as far as I know.

 

[Audioboxer]

I'm going to make a "crazy" prediction and say that, at least at the beginning, most games wont look better. The n3ds is, relatively speaking, a biggest jump than this and only a handfull of gamed take real advantage of it, as far as I know.

The original 3DS is such a killjoy for games in regards to scaling it's not really the best comparison. The N3DS is just that much better it really does require exclusive content to be made for it. The O3DS was under-powered technically when it was released. Before I get blowback, this doesn't mean great games couldn't be made, it has some of the best games around.

The original PS4 is far better suited to any genre of game currently around, it doesn't have the O3DS issue of grinding to a halt on a slightly complex open world game. Meaning your starting point can pretty much do any game fine currently, and something a bit faster will only be easier to scale up to. Devs don't need to think this original PS4 simply cannot handle this game, so we would have to go PS4 Neo exclusive...

 

[64bitbros]

Colin's argument to just wait 2 years and release the PS5 is in my opinion a bad one. 2 years in tech terms is an eternity. And Sony does not operate in a vacuum in this industry. Sony is now market leader in the console space. But, since when has it ever been a good idea to sit on your hands when on a high wave? How many brands have lost their market share because they were unwilling to change or adapt new idea's when on top? A lot.

So lets say that Sony waits 2 years for the release of PS5. Do we expect MS and Nintendo to do nothing in these 2 years? Not me. I think that between now and a half year we will hear about a new Nintendo console and new revision of the Xbox One. Is it a good idea for your market position to go from top dog to potentially one of the weakest on the market? That is a real posibility. PS4 is already lagging behind PC's and both AMD and Nvidia will probably ship new graphic cards this year that will make the gap between PC and PS4 even bigger. And with MS pushing xbox to PC you can get in serious trouble. So basically, everyone is moving forward but Sony should stay put and ride out a Ps4 that is getting older and older? Because why again? Its not a phone he said right? Is that really a reason to let this very real scenario happen to a billion dollar company that is finally seeing its fortune turn around?

Also, you need to take into account VR. Sony wants to have a place in that market. But the gap between PS4 and PC is already pretty big and will get even bigger very fast. The gap between these two will make porting games from Occulus/Vive to Playstation VR a nightmare. It already is hard now, as the minimum PC spec now is a GTX970 and the Ps4 does not have that kind of horsepower. What will happen when the new graphics cards hit the market? Sony can't just say "you know what, we will dabble 2 years with VR. And we will get serious in 2 years with our new console". If you want a serious market presence in the VR space you cannot wait 2 years and let the competition get away from you. Where will PC be in two years? Compared to the Ps4? That risk is far too great. You want the next big VR hit ported to your console if you didn't make it yourself. Standing still is going back as the competition is moving forward. And "just wait", "its not a phone", "it has never been done before" is one of the worst arguments i have ever heard. Colin is a journalist and he should be able to take a step back and look at a much larger picture.

Here's an argument from a completely different angle. I posted this a few weeks back in a different thread. Lets jump back a few years. What if....What if in stead of the Xbox 360 Elite.... MS had made a Xbox 365? Same console, but 2x as powerful. And the Xbox One after that would be a more powerful version of that 365? Think REALLY hard about this one. What would that have meant for the Xbox brand and its userbase and market share? Would people have jumped ship to the Playstation eco-system? How would the market be now? I think we would have a whole different picture.

Guess what Sony is doing with this Ps4 NEO? In stead of resetting the market every 5 a 6 years and hope gamers like your new product you now get a roadmap where people are locked into your eco-system with a clear upgrade path and no need to look at the competition. You don't want the "lets evaluate my options" every 5-6 years. The risk is far too great, as MS has noticed.

 

[Mareg]

What I fear is that games will have skus related bugs.
That wouldn't surprise me at all. Or delays. Sony should made extra sure it was a painless process to certify a game for the neo.

 

[thelastword]

So, everything not in line with your point of view is propaganda? Wow.

I mean, this guy is (afaik) part of a Playstation podcast, that's enough reason for me to think that he isn't some kind of fanboyish troll.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-disclosure_agreement

NDA for what exactly? dev kits are just going out for the NEO now, albeit in partial form, which means that no Neo products are really being developed by third parties now, except the bigger ones like UBI, Activision and EA. In essence, devs who would be in sync with Sony on this, so why would Sony rush kits out to a dev who was not in sync.

The easiest thing for a journalist to do is say that he got a source that says "such and such" and hide behind NDA, which means, what he is saying is very fickle and unproven. We all know what Moriarty's view on this whole thing is, he is very passionate about his stance on this and so he would use anyone to bias-ly confirm his viewpoint. I mean read what he says, "MOST DEVS are not happy with PS4.5", how did he arrive at such a slice? Did he take a survey, what did he do to arrive at such a conclusion. That's a pretty conclusive statement to make hiding behind a source of a source wall.

On the flip, many devs that we know have stated that they are pretty happy with the mid-gen upgrade, devs that we know, yet the majority of devs out there that are opposed to the PS4k are locked behind NDA, "but trust us it's true". Apparently, Moriarty has more of a pulse of the dev community than Sony....I guess cerny and his team never spoke to devs and they have no clue...../S

 

[Audioboxer]

Colin's argument to just wait 2 years and release the PS5 is in my opinion a bad one. 2 years in tech terms is an eternity. And Sony does not operate in a vacuum in this industry. Sony is now market leader in the console space. But, since when has it ever been a good idea to sit on your hands when on a high wave? How many brands have lost their market share because they were unwilling to change or adapt new idea's when on top? A lot.

So lets say that Sony waits 2 years for the release of PS5. Do we expect MS and Nintendo to do nothing in these 2 years? Not me. I think that between now and a half year we will hear about a new Nintendo console and new revision of the Xbox One. Is it a good idea for your market position to go from top dog to potentially one of the weakest on the market? That is a real posibility. PS4 is already lagging behind PC's and both AMD and Nvidia will probably ship new graphic cards this year that will make the gap between PC and PS4 even bigger. And with MS pushing xbox to PC you can get in serious trouble. So basically, everyone is moving forward but Sony should stay put and ride out a Ps4 that is getting older and older? Because why again? Its not a phone he said right? Is that really a reason to let this very real scenario happen to billion dollar company that is finall seeing its fortune turn around?

Also, you need to take into account VR. Sony wants to have a place in that market. But the gap between PS4 and PC is already pretty big and will get even bigger very fast. The gap between these two will make porting games from Occulus/Vive to Playstation VR a nightmare. It already is hard now, as the minimum PC spec now is a GTX970 and the Ps4 does not have that kind of horsepower. What will happen when the new graphics cards hit the market? Sony can't just say "you know what, we will dabble 2 years with VR. And we will get serious in 2 years with our new console". If you want a serious market presence in the VR space you cannot wait 2 years and let the competition get away from you. Where will PC be in two years? Compared to the Ps4? That risk is far too great. You want the next big VR hit ported to your console if you didn't make it yourself. Standing still is going back as the competition is moving forward. And "just wait", "its not a phone", "it has never been done before" is one of the worst arguments i have ever heard. Colin is a journalist and he should be able to take a step back and look at a much larger picture.

Here's an argument from a completely different angle. I posted this a few weeks back in a different thread. Lets jump back a few years. What if....What if in stead of the Xbox 360 Elite.... MS had made a Xbox 365? Same console, but 2x as powerful. And the Xbox One after that would be a more powerful version of that 365? Think REALLY hard about this one. What would that have meant for the Xbox brand and its userbase and market share? Would people have jumped ship to the Playstation eco-system? How would the market be now? I think we would have a whole different picture.

Guess what Sony is doing with this Ps4 NEO? In stead of resetting the market every 5 a 6 years and hope gamers like your new product you now get a roadmap where people are locked into your eco-system with a clear upgrade path and no need to look at the competition. You don't want the "lets evaluate my options" every 5-6 years. The risk is far too great, as MS has noticed.

I'll keep harping on IMO this is the real driver for them here. 2 years is MORE than an eternity in this new VR market that will go gangbusters tech wise going forward right now with increasing VR complexity and new experiences.

Even if the Sony HQ simply wanted to test the water with iterative consoles without VR, undoubtedly trying to stay relevant in the upcoming VR market really is the push causing them to do this IMO. Without a doubt VR experiences are the brickwall devs may well come back to Sony about in the next year or two and say sorry bro, our game will not work on the original PS4 well enough for us to make a version of it for you. That is the fear that causes PSVR to die out before the PS5 can hit our shelves.

 

[Bots are better than you]

Yeah as I guessed, wrong example... The parity issue with Super Smash Bros. was between 3DS and Wii U not 3DS and New 3DS... The situation between those two isn't really comparable.

Nah, it is a fitting example, it's just that in the case of Smash Bros, there was more polishing to make it run ok on OG 3DS, which is missing in the case of Hyrule Warriors.

NDA for what exactly? dev kits are just going out for the NEO now, albeit in partial form, which means that no Neo products are really being developed by third parties now, except the bigger ones like UBI, Activision and EA. In essence, devs who would be in sync with Sony on this, so why would Sony rush kits out to a dev who was not in sync.

The easiest thing for a journalist to do is say that he got a source that says "such and such" and hide behind NDA, which means, what he is saying is very fickle and unproven. We all know what Moriarty's view on this whole thing is, he is very passionate about his stance on this and so he would use anyone to bias-ly confirm his viewpoint. I mean read what he says, "MOST DEVS are not happy with PS4.5", how did he arrive at such a slice? Did he take a survey, what did he do to arrive at such a conclusion. That's a pretty conclusive statement to make hiding behind a source of a source wall.

On the flip, many devs that we know have stated that they are pretty happy with the mid-gen upgrade, devs that we know, yet the majority of devs out there that are opposed to the PS4k are locked behind NDA, "but trust us it's true". Apparently, Moriarty has more of a pulse of the dev community than Sony....I guess cerny and his team never spoke to devs and they have no clue...../S

So many words for the simple sentence: "I don't know how NDAs work."

Little hint, chubigans posted about such a thing and being under such things in the mega-threads from yesterday. So devs ARE under NDA, and this has nothing to do with "out of sync", also, i'm pretty sure that this Colin guy's source didn't go and ask some Nintendo devs about their opinion, good grief. And you're free to believe the, what, 4 or 5, devs who talk on this board, but you shouldn't defame and disregard information from our very own Shinobi or this Colin dude as biased propaganda, just it doesn't match your fancy.

If one defence forces so hard about a thing, like you do right now, there's little to no point in trying to continue any disucssion about this topic.

 

[Vlodril]

Colin's argument to just wait 2 years and release the PS5 is in my opinion a bad one. 2 years in tech terms is an eternity. And Sony does not operate in a vacuum in this industry. Sony is now market leader in the console space. But, since when has it ever been a good idea to sit on your hands when on a high wave? How many brands have lost their market share because they were unwilling to change or adapt new idea's when on top? A lot.

So lets say that Sony waits 2 years for the release of PS5. Do we expect MS and Nintendo to do nothing in these 2 years? Not me. I think that between now and a half year we will hear about a new Nintendo console and new revision of the Xbox One. Is it a good idea for your market position to go from top dog to potentially one of the weakest on the market? That is a real posibility. PS4 is already lagging behind PC's and both AMD and Nvidia will probably ship new graphic cards this year that will make the gap between PC and PS4 even bigger. And with MS pushing xbox to PC you can get in serious trouble. So basically, everyone is moving forward but Sony should stay put and ride out a Ps4 that is getting older and older? Because why again? Its not a phone he said right? Is that really a reason to let this very real scenario happen to a billion dollar company that is finally seeing its fortune turn around?

Also, you need to take into account VR. Sony wants to have a place in that market. But the gap between PS4 and PC is already pretty big and will get even bigger very fast. The gap between these two will make porting games from Occulus/Vive to Playstation VR a nightmare. It already is hard now, as the minimum PC spec now is a GTX970 and the Ps4 does not have that kind of horsepower. What will happen when the new graphics cards hit the market? Sony can't just say "you know what, we will dabble 2 years with VR. And we will get serious in 2 years with our new console". If you want a serious market presence in the VR space you cannot wait 2 years and let the competition get away from you. Where will PC be in two years? Compared to the Ps4? That risk is far too great. You want the next big VR hit ported to your console if you didn't make it yourself. Standing still is going back as the competition is moving forward. And "just wait", "its not a phone", "it has never been done before" is one of the worst arguments i have ever heard. Colin is a journalist and he should be able to take a step back and look at a much larger picture.

Here's an argument from a completely different angle. I posted this a few weeks back in a different thread. Lets jump back a few years. What if....What if in stead of the Xbox 360 Elite.... MS had made a Xbox 365? Same console, but 2x as powerful. And the Xbox One after that would be a more powerful version of that 365? Think REALLY hard about this one. What would that have meant for the Xbox brand and its userbase and market share? Would people have jumped ship to the Playstation eco-system? How would the market be now? I think we would have a whole different picture.

Guess what Sony is doing with this Ps4 NEO? In stead of resetting the market every 5 a 6 years and hope gamers like your new product you now get a roadmap where people are locked into your eco-system with a clear upgrade path and no need to look at the competition. You don't want the "lets evaluate my options" every 5-6 years. The risk is far too great, as MS has noticed.

I disagree. I don't know where this ps4 is underpowered narrative is coming from. consoles are always underpowered compared to pc's. This is not a new reality.

The ps4 has a lot of goodwill and insane word of mouth (and sales without even dropping the price as far as they could probably). 3 years is wayy to soon to rock the boat.

I think Sony did want a smaller generation (no more 10 years) but was afraid people would freak with a 5 year generation or something and decided to hedge their bets and release a half way console trying not to get any flack from gamers for a shorter generation and get the high end power people (and make more money of course).

I personally feel this will backfire but only the future can tell.

There is certainly a lot of resistance to the concept (you only have to see the thousands of posts in here) at least with the hardcore. Some of the hardcore will upgrade because thats why they are hardcore. Some like me wont (i personally feel if there is going to be multiple consoles every couple of years i better spend that money on my pc and getter a better perfomance there).

What the general public will do who knows. Everyone trying to speak for them is speaking out of their ass. There is a good chance for some bad pr though where there was none before for ps4 and sony (also i expect a lot more negative reviews when it comes out on games saying yea its good on ps4k but on ps4 it doesnt do this and that. Pretty sure reviewers will focus on the negatives and sony will lose the ps4 wins every comparison port wise to other consoles to each own upgrade).

 

[Endo Punk]

After the latest PS podcast this really comes off as an agenda to spread negative word of mouth and sully the reveal. I don't know how it will pan out but I agree with Greg Miller that it wont stop me from enjoying my games now and in the future, I'm sure Sony will not be so stupid to release botched versions on standard PS4 that 38 million people own. I do not care for 4k so I'm perfectly happy with the current PS4.

 

[Servbot24]

Also expect devs to become lazyer ( easy pc ports )

Damn devs! When will their reign of slothy terror end??

 

[m4st4]

How is having 2 PS4 versions out more of a pain in the ass than to having to make a PS3 and PS4 version of a game? What about in the PC space where you have multiple configs you have to account for?

I like reading these... Will you buy PS4K? If yes, cool. There are plenty of people out there who won't, or at least won't have the money or incentive immediately. They will be playing new games in a (clearly) lesser state because top of the visual crop will be on PS4K.

They bought a console - known for their now seemingly obsolete 'definitive' life cycles of 5+ years - and soon it won't be enough. We're getting this weird Apple-style 'updates'.

And to those who are saying 'PS4 is on the market for almost three years now, it's time for an update anyway', how many games have peaked this generation? This is the first of those three years that looks like it's juicing the hardware to it's extremes. And I doubt those are it's final pixels. I mean who would've thought about games like Order 1886 or soon Uncharted 4 but developers managed to deliver such high quality (speaking about visual fidelity here, nothing more) still.

We barely started this gen, PS4 is selling like b-day cake across the globe... nobody asked for PS4K this soon in the game, or at least not those who payed the big bucks for 'vanilla' edition anyway. Plus, blu-ray barely got through the mainstream gates, I wonder how many people will jump on the 4K train in 2017?

 

[Corpekata]

NDA for what exactly? dev kits are just going out for the NEO now, albeit in partial form, which means that no Neo products are really being developed by third parties now, except the bigger ones like UBI, Activision and EA. In essence, devs who would be in sync with Sony on this, so why would Sony rush kits out to a dev who was not in sync.

The easiest thing for a journalist to do is say that he got a source that says "such and such" and hide behind NDA, which means, what he is saying is very fickle and unproven. We all know what Moriarty's view on this whole thing is, he is very passionate about his stance on this and so he would use anyone to bias-ly confirm his viewpoint. I mean read what he says, "MOST DEVS are not happy with PS4.5", how did he arrive at such a slice? Did he take a survey, what did he do to arrive at such a conclusion. That's a pretty conclusive statement to make hiding behind a source of a source wall.

On the flip, many devs that we know have stated that they are pretty happy with the mid-gen upgrade, devs that we know, yet the majority of devs out there that are opposed to the PS4k are locked behind NDA, "but trust us it's true". Apparently, Moriarty has more of a pulse of the dev community than Sony....I guess cerny and his team never spoke to devs and they have no clue...../S

LOL how can you call into question what he said and then pull out "On the flip, many devs that we know have stated that they are pretty happy with the mid-gen upgrade, devs that we know" of your ass? Like next to nobody is commenting on it period.

 

[PanicFreak]

It's funny to me that people would think that Sony and Microsoft would move pretty much in lockstep on this mid-generation upgrade without input from developers or publishers.

 

[Daante]

Colin's argument to just wait 2 years and release the PS5 is in my opinion a bad one. 2 years in tech terms is an eternity. And Sony does not operate in a vacuum in this industry. Sony is now market leader in the console space. But, since when has it ever been a good idea to sit on your hands when on a high wave? How many brands have lost their market share because they were unwilling to change or adapt new idea's when on top? A lot.

So lets say that Sony waits 2 years for the release of PS5. Do we expect MS and Nintendo to do nothing in these 2 years? Not me. I think that between now and a half year we will hear about a new Nintendo console and new revision of the Xbox One. Is it a good idea for your market position to go from top dog to potentially one of the weakest on the market? That is a real posibility. PS4 is already lagging behind PC's and both AMD and Nvidia will probably ship new graphic cards this year that will make the gap between PC and PS4 even bigger. And with MS pushing xbox to PC you can get in serious trouble. So basically, everyone is moving forward but Sony should stay put and ride out a Ps4 that is getting older and older? Because why again? Its not a phone he said right? Is that really a reason to let this very real scenario happen to billion dollar company that is finall seeing its fortune turn around?

Also, you need to take into account VR. Sony wants to have a place in that market. But the gap between PS4 and PC is already pretty big and will get even bigger very fast. The gap between these two will make porting games from Occulus/Vive to Playstation VR a nightmare. It already is hard now, as the minimum PC spec now is a GTX970 and the Ps4 does not have that kind of horsepower. What will happen when the new graphics cards hit the market? Sony can't just say "you know what, we will dabble 2 years with VR. And we will get serious in 2 years with our new console". If you want a serious market presence in the VR space you cannot wait 2 years and let the competition get away from you. Where will PC be in two years? Compared to the Ps4? That risk is far too great. You want the next big VR hit ported to your console if you didn't make it yourself. Standing still is going back as the competition is moving forward. And "just wait", "its not a phone", "it has never been done before" is one of the worst arguments i have ever heard. Colin is a journalist and he should be able to take a step back and look at a much larger picture.

Here's an argument from a completely different angle. I posted this a few weeks back in a different thread. Lets jump back a few years. What if....What if in stead of the Xbox 360 Elite.... MS had made a Xbox 365? Same console, but 2x as powerful. And the Xbox One after that would be a more powerful version of that 365? Think REALLY hard about this one. What would that have meant for the Xbox brand and its userbase and market share? Would people have jumped ship to the Playstation eco-system? How would the market be now? I think we would have a whole different picture.

Guess what Sony is doing with this Ps4 NEO? In stead of resetting the market every 5 a 6 years and hope gamers like your new product you now get a roadmap where people are locked into your eco-system with a clear upgrade path and no need to look at the competition. You don't want the "lets evaluate my options" every 5-6 years. The risk is far too great, as MS has noticed.

Great post and analysis.

Im gonna add something iv been thinking about quite a lot latley. For some this will make sense, others will think i have smoken something really strong.

Think about the word "attention".
Think about it again.
Think about that word in context to how your daily life is run.

I would say that pretty much every game developer/company, every smartphone app, every social media network, and yeah basically every freaking company is fighting for getting your attention.

They are fighting for getting a snip of your time.
Every day of the year.

How many people do you not know that simply are slaves to their cellphones these days?. They simply don´t reflect or think about that their actual lives and their time is run and dictated by a phone.

If you are a company in the tech space where things move really fast, does it make sense to become fat, greedy and lazy, just got success hit you?

Do you think your exsisting customers will be loyal to you?, if better products or services rise from your competitors, yet you are still stuck in your previous success having the greed, fat and lazy mindset.

Would i say that the success the PS2 had somewhat formed the strategy for the PS3?
YES

Would i say that the success the X360 had somewhat formed the strategy for the XB1?
YES

Would i say that the success the Wii had somewhat formed the strategy for the Wiiu?
YES

The risk is absolutely too big to wait 5-10 years in todays console space, regarding a significant hardware upgrade. Keeping your current userbase and customers locked in your eco-system, and having their attention is essential.

The PS4,5 make perfect sense in my book, and seems like a smart strategy, moving forward.

 

[thelastword]

Last gen developers were talking about how stale the hardware got from the stretched out generation.

Now we get a mid gen refresh to keep up and it makes people unhappy...

I hope they can adapt easy enough, it's honestly for the greater good I believe. We've been seeing sub HD games with bad frame rates since the start of this generation.

Most of these spotty games were due to a lack of optimization, so it's not like devs were optimization kings on consoles and Sony messed up all that good work they were doing. As a matter of fact, the number of questionable products that are released is something I would like these journalists to address and ask these devs about. Some really disgusting code is released as a final product on many platforms. This is certainly something that requires dev reference/feedback and also needs to be addressed and sorted out.

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1209660

Loren Lanning doesn't seem to be unhappy about any of this.

Like with anything you are going to get some people who are "unhappy" with something and others who are perfectly fine with it. And if we end up going down this road those who are "unhappy" will simply be forced to adapt and become "fine" with it over time.

Lorne has always been about two things; power and ease of development, hence why he preferred the two xboxes. His stance here is consistent at least.

Colin's argument to just wait 2 years and release the PS5 is in my opinion a bad one. 2 years in tech terms is an eternity. And Sony does not operate in a vacuum in this industry. Sony is now market leader in the console space. But, since when has it ever been a good idea to sit on your hands when on a high wave? How many brands have lost their market share because they were unwilling to change or adapt new idea's when on top? A lot.

So lets say that Sony waits 2 years for the release of PS5. Do we expect MS and Nintendo to do nothing in these 2 years? Not me. I think that between now and a half year we will hear about a new Nintendo console and new revision of the Xbox One. Is it a good idea for your market position to go from top dog to potentially one of the weakest on the market? That is a real posibility. PS4 is already lagging behind PC's and both AMD and Nvidia will probably ship new graphic cards this year that will make the gap between PC and PS4 even bigger. And with MS pushing xbox to PC you can get in serious trouble. So basically, everyone is moving forward but Sony should stay put and ride out a Ps4 that is getting older and older? Because why again? Its not a phone he said right? Is that really a reason to let this very real scenario happen to a billion dollar company that is finally seeing its fortune turn around?

Also, you need to take into account VR. Sony wants to have a place in that market. But the gap between PS4 and PC is already pretty big and will get even bigger very fast. The gap between these two will make porting games from Occulus/Vive to Playstation VR a nightmare. It already is hard now, as the minimum PC spec now is a GTX970 and the Ps4 does not have that kind of horsepower. What will happen when the new graphics cards hit the market? Sony can't just say "you know what, we will dabble 2 years with VR. And we will get serious in 2 years with our new console". If you want a serious market presence in the VR space you cannot wait 2 years and let the competition get away from you. Where will PC be in two years? Compared to the Ps4? That risk is far too great. You want the next big VR hit ported to your console if you didn't make it yourself. Standing still is going back as the competition is moving forward. And "just wait", "its not a phone", "it has never been done before" is one of the worst arguments i have ever heard. Colin is a journalist and he should be able to take a step back and look at a much larger picture.

Here's an argument from a completely different angle. I posted this a few weeks back in a different thread. Lets jump back a few years. What if....What if in stead of the Xbox 360 Elite.... MS had made a Xbox 365? Same console, but 2x as powerful. And the Xbox One after that would be a more powerful version of that 365? Think REALLY hard about this one. What would that have meant for the Xbox brand and its userbase and market share? Would people have jumped ship to the Playstation eco-system? How would the market be now? I think we would have a whole different picture.

Guess what Sony is doing with this Ps4 NEO? In stead of resetting the market every 5 a 6 years and hope gamers like your new product you now get a roadmap where people are locked into your eco-system with a clear upgrade path and no need to look at the competition. You don't want the "lets evaluate my options" every 5-6 years. The risk is far too great, as MS has noticed.

Very good post, sound analysis, but people are still stuck in the "but I just bought a PS4 and now it's shit phase", no, your PS4 is not suddenly shit because a better PS4 will be available. I'm even seeing some arguments that suddenly PS4 will be incapable of doing 1080p games because of the NEO, people are saying PS4 games will be unoptimized 900p 20fps games, how? The majority of PS4 titles are 1080p at medium to high settings, that does not change. The Neo will only shoot up the slider from high-max settings at 30-60fps locked.

The biggest takeaway is VR obviously, Sony is quite adamant on this thing's success, so they can't sit on their laurels and say I'm king, can't be overthrown, so I understand their initiative. Things is, if there's a big VR game from a non sony developer, just a must have VR game that takes off from say Crytek or Epic on the PC side and the PS4 can't muster the visuals and framerate with it's GPU, Sony loses, NEO brings some form of mitigation to arrest that because the required specs for VR on PC/pc devs is pretty high already as it is. Notwithstanding, Sony is also inclined to support UHD, the PS4 in it's current form needs some mechanical tweaks to allow that to happen and 4k is here now, to usher UHD in, not in two or three years, now.

You add that together and the biggest takeaway for me as a gamer are games and obviously for Sony as well, it's the division that has brought them back and their brightest asset right now is SWWS. The NEO gives their first party studios much more power to push out eye melting titles like GOW4, Zero Dawn, LAST of US 2, Kojima Game, GT7, Bloodborne 2 and a wealth of other visual spectacles that will define this generation. I'm pretty sure Square is not opposed but actually enthused, overjoyed even. So you see, if you watch this thing "whole-listically", it makes sense for Sony because this is where things are heading. You don't react to things when they come along, you pre-plan and and make changes that puts you one step ahead.

 

[Black Hat]

In Just Cause 3's case the devs can actually make the game work on console. That would be nice.

 

[dgrdsv]

I can't see what benefit this would have to developers. The PS4 is already selling gang busters, and their not going to sell any more copies of their games because of the PS4K. If anything they'll just be giving themselves more work, effort, cost and less time, to cater to a consumer base that would have existed either way, only without requiring all the added effort.

It's not like they actually genuinely have much more "creative scope" either, because they're still being held back by the PS4. The only thing they'll likely be getting more creative with is extra graphical bells and whistles, resolution and/or performance.

Smooth out console transition, lessen risks at new generation start.

Technically this is what we had when PS4/XBO launched: most titles were "crossgen". PS4K suggest the same but with way less resources needed to produce such crossgen title. The question is will consumers like the idea?

 

[Kysen]

They bought a console - known for their now seemingly obsolete 'definitive' life cycles of 5+ years - and soon it won't be enough. We're getting this weird Apple-style 'updates'.

Technology is moving way too fast to be stuck with hardware for 5 years yet alone beyond that. As long as there is forwards and backwards compat I welcome this new model. You're right about one thing, the current PS4 will definitely be an afterthought at the 5 year mark.

 

[thuway]

I think the real question is - can Sony offer the tools necessary to minimize the bludgeon of increasing cost/time/work to a developer? In the coming months we'll get a better idea of just how much this effects development. From what it seems, there is a very small group of developers with the first kits, and I suspect we'll see more and more information trickle out as these things become widespread. Cerny and Co. have been pretty good at sending out surveys and drawing feedback/criticism from developers. If that developer-first, ease of programming ethos is the driving force behind the design of PS4Neo I think developers will be in good hands.

 

[Dinky Dino]

Expected.

The PS4K seems like a system made for nobody. Bad for consumers, bad for developers.

Well it does seem that way since Sony is limiting what devs can do.

Given how well the ps4 is doing as is, it does seem unecessary. After all parity is done so that people don't cry it's not fair. They likely have data supporting this and how sales might be affected.

So if a better version exists in any form, some console owners will feel inferior. You can claim it doesn't matter but for many the mentality they have makes them angry. It's why the division dev stated the pc version can't be too good looking vs consoles. You had people arguing like madmen over small differences last gen. So this introduces issues for no real reason.

 

[Shari]

I'm even seeing some arguments that suddenly PS4 will be incapable of doing 1080p games because of the NEO, people are saying PS4 games will be unoptimized 900p 20fps games, how? The majority of PS4 titles are 1080p at medium to high settings, that does not change. The Neo will only shoot up the slider from high-max settings at 30-60fps locked.

I keep seeing this thrown around here and if you look at how developpment for different hardware goes you cannot really believe what you're saying.

For Sony's first party developpments that might be the case (I strongly doubt so tho) but third parties are going to target PS4.5 for the extra creative freedom and then they going to downgrade things to fit the old console, I mean, this is not new.

And when budget is going to be tight and time limited, the focus is not going to be on optimizing the lesser versions.

 

[thelastword]

This is expected for consoles in x86 CPUs architecture era

Expect console models upgrades to be more common in future

( easy of the shelf parts to assimble, cheap to make, easy to code for )

Also expect devs to become lazyer ( easy pc ports )

Imagine if these guys had to develop for a 32 core cell and also had a more complex Xbox to work with. NX is also on the way, so that's another piece of hardware, are they going to complain that there's actual work and more platforms to code for. With x86 arch and a friendly dev environment, you'd think these guys would be happy......;(

....but I concur, AMD has a clear cut hardware pipeline, privy to anybody's perusal mind you. They have low-energy apu's and architecture planned out for compact devices, it was pretty clear that Sony would opt for an upgrade when the next phase became ready. Who knows, they probably claimed first dibs for polaris at the height of PS4 negotiations with AMD.

So many words for the simple sentence: "I don't know how NDAs work."

Little hint, chubigans posted about such a thing and being under such things in the mega-threads from yesterday. So devs ARE under NDA, and this has nothing to do with "out of sync", also, i'm pretty sure that this Colin guy's source didn't go and ask some Nintendo devs about their opinion, good grief. And you're free to believe the, what, 4 or 5, devs who talk on this board, but you shouldn't defame and disregard information from our very own Shinobi or this Colin dude as biased propaganda, just it doesn't match your fancy.

If one defence forces so hard about a thing, like you do right now, there's little to no point in trying to continue any disucssion about this topic.

I do know what an NDA is, most of these devs you mentioned that are opposed, are not privy to Neo dev kits, they have a view, they can express their concerns. So if Chubigans is opposed, so be it, but many more devs within the circle are for it, like gopher, matt, lanning and many others as per the last thread. Colin and Shinobi say that the majority are opposed, yet the avclub guy says the majority are for it, yet more dev sigs, say they're for it on this forum and others.

I think, E3 will be very interesting when this thing is revealed, because we will get impressions straight from devs live. This whole thing of NDA's makes no sense here, Lorne and many others can give their take on this, or at least dispel this tweet by Colin but somehow the majority of devs are opposed to PS4K, but they just can't talk????? I guess we can continue this conversation at E3 when this blows up.......when everybody can talk more freely.

LOL how can you call into question what he said and then pull out "On the flip, many devs that we know have stated that they are pretty happy with the mid-gen upgrade, devs that we know" of your ass? Like next to nobody is commenting on it period.

Nobody is commenting on it? Nobody? I'm pretty sure some persons are, even if it's their internet signature and avatars. At least that's something over "MOST devs are opposed to it" and of course the majority of devs we know on forums do not share that sentiment. If most devs are opposed, I guess most of these Neo kits Sony are sending to devs would get a return to sender stamp......amirite?

 

[Mr. Nice_Guy]

Technology is moving way too fast to be stuck with hardware for 5 years yet alone beyond that. As long as there is forwards and backwards compat I welcome this new model. You're right about one thing, the current PS4 will definitely be an afterthought at the 5 year mark.

I don't think most people care about it being the top of the line though. When it comes to consoles I think most people are happy having one multi hundred dollar purchase every 5-6 years. I agree tech is moving fast, so much faster then when consoles first became a thing, but market wise I just don't see this taking off with the average consumer. Definitely curious about reactions to the official announcement.

 

[ninjablade]

I keep seeing this thrown around here and if you look at how developpment for different hardware goes you cannot really believe what you're saying.

For Sony's first party developpments that might be the case (I strongly doubt so tho) but third parties are going to target PS4.5 for the extra creative freedom and then they going to downgrade things to fit the old console, I mean, this is not new.

And when budget is going to be tight and time limited, the focus is not going to be on optimizing the lesser versions.

third party are already doing this by targeting his end pc's, just to name a few, witcher 3, just cause 3. division, unity, watch dogs, and fall out 4 basically any game that had mind blowing graphics was first shown on pc then down scaled for ps4, except for batman.

 

[DriftingSpirit]

If "most" developers are not happy , then why is Sony doing this? confusing.

That is the thing. It isn't "most" of anything. It is hyperbole. I am sure there are examples of devs who are disgruntled and devs who have little to no qualms.

 

[Shari]

third party are already doing this by targeting his end pc's, just to name a few, witcher 3, division, unity, watch dogs, basically any game that had mind blowing graphics was first shown on pc then down scaled for ps4, except for batman.

Absolutelly, but now instead of 2 ports to consoles they have to do 3.

So either things stay as they are and the upgrade to PS4.5k is going to be underwhelming (which is fine by, I already own a ps4) or old HW is going to suffer from an extra target platform.

The only thing I know for sure is that suits from third parties are not going to increase budget/time to cater to Sony's agenda.

That is the thing. It isn't "most" of anything. It is hyperbole. I am sure there are examples of devs who are disgruntled and devs who have little to no qualms.

This is denial. It's impossible that giving you extra work with absolutely no benefit is not going to bother you, a dev on a paycheck might not care, but a company does, I can assure you they do. Then again if this means more crunch for the extra work even the devs are going to be mad.

After the latest PS podcast this really comes off as an agenda to spread negative word of mouth and sully the reveal. I don't know how it will pan out but I agree with Greg Miller that it wont stop me from enjoying my games now and in the future, I'm sure Sony will not be so stupid to release botched versions on standard PS4 that 38 million people own. I do not care for 4k so I'm perfectly happy with the current PS4.

Thing is, Sony is not the only one releasing games for PS4, and if 38 million people dont move from ps4 then what's the point on PS4.5? And why would thirds make extra dev efforts for a platform no one owns?

If the point of all this is 4k output you can do that with an extra feature on you gpu (apu in this case) you dont need to OC the CPU, dont need to increase RAM bandwith and definitely dont need to make your GPU twice as powerful.

 

[DriftingSpirit]

After the latest PS podcast this really comes off as an agenda to spread negative word of mouth and sully the reveal. I don't know how it will pan out but I agree with Greg Miller that it wont stop me from enjoying my games now and in the future, I'm sure Sony will not be so stupid to release botched versions on standard PS4 that 38 million people own. I do not care for 4k so I'm perfectly happy with the current PS4.

That is how I feel. Will I continue getting the same games and will they run at a suitable performance? If yes to both, PS4K is irrelevant to me. I already have everything I need. If Sony feels there is a market for this and they want to try something different, more power to them.

 

[Cyriades]

*Devs complain about the consoles being underpowered*

*Devs complain about updated, more powerful consoles releasing*

Pretty much, Humans are never happy.

 

[DriftingSpirit]

This is denial. It's impossible that giving you extra work with absolutely no benefit is not going to bother you, a dev on a paycheck might not care, but a company does, I can assure you they do. Then again if this means more crunch for the extra work even the devs are going to be mad.

The tweet I referenced was talking about most devs being unsatisfied with this. We've had devs (and insiders) here say they were fine with it. Thus, it brings into question the claim of "most".

You (nor I) have no way to claim this is only extra work with no benefit at all. We lack the knowledge to do so.

 

[KeRaSh]

I like reading these... Will you buy PS4K? If yes, cool. There are plenty of people out there who won't, or at least won't have the money or incentive immediately. They will be playing new games in a (clearly) lesser state because top of the visual crop will be on PS4K.

People have played new games in clearly lesser states on day one. Some people seem to live in a weird bubble where PC gaming does not exist. If you are OK with multiplats looking way better on PC then how will the PS4K be any different? For all you care it's a completely foreign system that does not affect your PS4. There is no proof that PS4 games will start performing like shit the second the PS4K comes out. This is all speculation, however the writing seems to already be on the wall?

Are you happy about how Uncharted 4 looks? This is as good as it will ever look on the PS4. Will it suddenly look like shit to you once the PS4K gets a graphically bumbed up version?

 

[Bots are better than you]

I do know what an NDA is, most of these devs you mentioned that are opposed, are not privy to Neo dev kits, they have a view, they can express their concerns. So if Chubigans is opposed, so be it, but many more devs within the circle are for it, like gopher, matt, lanning and many others as per the last thread. Colin and Shinobi say that the majority are opposed, yet the avclub guy says the majority are for it, yet more dev sigs, say they're for it on this forum and others.

I think, E3 will be very interesting when this thing is revealed, because we will get impressions straight from devs live. This whole thing of NDA's makes no sense here, Lorne and many others can give their take on this, or at least dispel this tweet by Colin but somehow the majority of devs are opposed to PS4K, but they just can't talk????? I guess we can continue this conversation at E3 when this blows up.......when everybody can talk more freely.

Yeah, devs under NDA can't and/or won't talk, that is the very reason why NDAs exist. Your disbelieve about that implies that you're not getting this. Also, who said that the Oddworld guy is under a NDA and/or having a devkit?

And come E³, you will see many devs saying how great this PS4K and more fragmentation is, that's called marketing. Want me to dig out the crap EA and Ubisoft were saying at the Wii U announcement at E³ 2012?

With this, i consider our conversation finished, as i have better things to do than arguing with a person that won't change his stance, won't accept that there are negative aspects of this intermediate hardware stuff, and just won't accept that possibly a large junk of devs and gamers don't like this move.

 

[SlipperyFishes]

Nobody is commenting on it? Nobody? I'm pretty sure some persons are, even if it's their internet signature and avatars. At least that's something over "MOST devs are opposed to it" and of course the majority of devs we know on forums do not share that sentiment. If most devs are opposed, I guess most of these Neo kits Sony are sending to devs would get a return to sender stamp......amirite?

They wouldn't have a choice. These are the now de facto devkits likely with scaling hardware inside one unit. If you don't support the recommended spec then your basically fucked. They have no choice.

 

[The Artisan]

Already posted in this http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1209348&page=23 thread.

yeah but this is worthy of its own thread imo.

 

[HellofaMouse]

Unless that source is yoshida or something, he can only speak for his own studio tho right? And even then, only partially.

 

[The Artisan]

*Devs complain about the consoles being underpowered*

*Devs complain about updated, more powerful consoles releasing*

i'm willing to bet there are more devs mad about the iterative shit than they were about the power of the consoles. here's a thread about take two being confident about the launch ones

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1054628&highlight=

 

[Cyriades]

That is the thing. It isn't "most" of anything. It is hyperbole. I am sure there are examples of devs who are disgruntled and devs who have little to no qualms.

Its more likely Colin Moriarty doesn't like it and heard one disgruntled dev. So now he makes this fake ass news cycle "most" devs.. yeah right, name one?!