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[Alpha Phoenix]

Using twitter isn't a critique. Or at least, it's not a way to do a good one since it inherently limits your argument causing misunderstandings and more.

I agree. The entire context was inappropriate.

 

[Audioboxer]

No one is calling you or team sexist or saying you intentionally made sexist content . People are just being critical of your work.
Don't misinterpret the actual argument.

I think the studio will be more interested to understand why a fellow studio out of the blue aimed a tweet their way. I'm sure CDPR know a lot of gamers debate their games, and they will have seen topics on GAF before. Like any good studio I'm sure GAF has and will always be a source to lurk and garner opinions.

Understanding what has propped TCR to come out with a say is the main point of interest here, although it has fueled a healthy debate on GAF. Which is good too. Differing opinions fuel message boards, as long as everyone remains civil enough.

 

[Ralemont]

But we`re called sexist for showing a boob or panties. Really?

I understand it's upsetting when you get dissed as has happened, but surely you have a better understanding of the issues some take with female presentation in the Witcher series than this?

 

[Garrett Hawke]

Ignoring criticism doesn't magically make it go away, especially since this is something that people have brought up many times in the past.

The lack of people of colour was a hot topic after Witcher 3 launched, and so CDPR added people from Ofier in Hearts of Stone.

Nobody's perfect, no art free from problems, so why should they ignore a chance to improve themselves, when they've already evolved from the devs who made sex a set of collectible card?

These are fair points tbh.

 

[Tecnniqe]

No one is calling you or team sexist or saying you intentionally made sexist content . People are just being critical of your work.
Don't misinterpret the actual argument.

They worded the whole thing as "Witcher i sexist and this equally sexist".


Honestly when i first saw that image (or the next 50 times for that matter) my mind never went to "Damn shes in panties yo!" but rather "Holy shit shes a crazy robot killing thing! THE FUUUCK!?"


Im still under that impression.

CDProjekt RED, company of 370 employees, a lot from around the world, many women (brilliant and talented) but also minorities: gay, transsexual (we might have been one of the few companies who had transsexual lead), all treated equally with only respect and support.

But we`re called sexist for showing a boob or panties. Really?

We always aimed to tell stories about people. And there are people with boobs and people with panties. Sometimes both.





***this is my personal opinion and not of my employer***

I love the art and your passion for games and most of what your company stands for, its a great addition to the games industry.
Keep doing exactly what you've been doing, its given us many great games, and i hope many great more in the future.

Ignoring criticism doesn't magically make it go away, especially since this is something that people have brought up many times in the past.

The lack of people of colour was a hot topic after Witcher 3 launched, and so CDPR added people from Ofier in Hearts of Stone.

Nobody's perfect, no art free from problems, so why should they ignore a chance to improve themselves, when they've already evolved from the devs who made sex a set of collectible cards?

It does not, but there is changing the created world and narrative to fit a "quota" of a checklist to be inclusive and make what you want to make.

If something is set in ancient Russia i hardly think we'll find every race and color there and so on and so forth.

 

[Velkyn]

Make what you want to make responsibly but don't censor yourself at the detriment of creativity and narrative.

Don't let the internet mongers put you in a corner with labels. Heed criticism and ideologues as subjective and largely personal at best.

Sorry, but where did you get censorship from? "Maybe pay better attention to how you depict women in your games and marketing material" doesn't constitute censorship. No one reasonable is saying that we need to take all sexual things out of games ever, but how does it harm anyone to take a look at your portrayal of women in your work?

It doesn't help people who create things to be in a bubble where they are shielded from all forms of criticism.

 

[dramatis]

How do you feel about this one, then?

Because that's the exact same character, at the end of the trailer. The costume you see in the OP's picture is pretty much just her background. She won't be like that during the whole game, if she's even part of the game.

The idea is that people are addicted to "braindancing", which allows them to relive other people's experiences, but abusing it and using certain kinds of braindances (especially illegal ones) makes them go berserk. She loses it and starts killing people. The squad goes in, to either retrieve her or kill her. The trailer ends with her looking like the pictures I posted, now a part of the squad. Presumably brainwashed (or perhaps just like her proper self, without the influence of braindancing).

Sorry I took your post in particular to make this point, as it's not made torwards you in specific, but I'm seeing way too many people, from "both sides", that seem to think that watching a 2 minute trailer for proper context before making walls of text analyzing the situation is too hard.

I watched the trailer, and I don't feel that is any better. I don't think that you trying to sell the concepts of the game is going to change the fact that the character design is shit.

Let's use Adam Jensen as a comparison for concept. The famous concept art of Jensen from Deus Ex Human Revolution.

Jensen is lying back in a moment of reflection, judging from the cigarette and the shot glass. His mechanical hands holding each of the items emphasizes his 'inhuman' state. His body is bandaged, he has holes all around his upper body. He's wearing pants, and you don't really see anything below his waist.

Why is a female presented this way in this picture that Cyberpunk fans post over and over again as if it is something to be proud of?

If she were a killing robot weapon, shouldn't she just have no clothes, no hair, and be made of machinery? Why did they have to pick that particular portrayal: skimpy tight tube short dress with clear view of of her crotch? Why did she have to be kneeling like that as opposed to a battle position on her feet, since she was killing 14 people? (By the way, the dumbest thing in that trailer has to be the bullets shattering on her skimpy dress lol)

In stark contrast to Adam Jensen the presentation of this female character is just one that utilizes sexual objectification to grab and then add a 'twist' to supposedly subvert guys into thinking, oh look strong female character (plus she's yowza omg). It's cheap.

I have not seen Ex Machina, but I understand there are sexual themes in it as well, yet look at how they designed a female robot character.

The Cyberpunk trailer started with the frame close in too, on the character's face, and then drew back until you realized she wasn't human. That's something that can be done with the Ex Machina design too, yet the Cyberpunk design insists on hair, skimpy clothes, and questionable pose and positioning.

The screenshots you posted, with the helmet and the eyes closeups, don't speak as much about the character as it does about a world where robots can be brainwashed or whatever "braindancing". A full character design says more about a person that emotionless facial closeups do. Unless there is a modicum of acting involved (angry gaze, scanning eyes, lost look, watery eyes), what you posted was useless for context of the female character.

In the first image you can see the hate in the actress's glare. What does the second one say about anything? Nothing.

You can be excited for the product. Doesn't change the fact that the design is stupid. The stupidity of the design doesn't change with the context you provided.

And your context is different from mine. You can see it as cool ideas, setting, character; I can see all the influences of male decisions without a regard for whether or not such a character would be more appealing to a wider audience.

 

[Commanche Raisin Toast]

From what I've heard/seen from TCR they have a pretty open work ethic and they all share their ideas and viewpoints and treat each other with respect. I don't think any of those tweets would be posted on that feed if they weren't comfortable with it, and it's also a little bit shady to imply that it might be Jessica based purely on the fact that she speaks often about feminist issues.

it isn't based PURELY on that.

it's based on how she's recently been tweeting about these things herself, and then SUDDENLY the twitter account for the company she's in charge of makes a very unprofessional tweet for what seems like the first time ever.

this is 100% speculation though. i'm just trying to figure out why TCR's twitter would suddenly post something like this. it's like the Kraft Foods account always being clever marketing posts about their foods, and then suddenly one day it's a tweet that's like "nah dude that new dodge charger looks janky as hell lol".

easy to see how that could be someone mistakenly posting something personal from another account they frequently use.

 

[Reanimator]

No one is calling you or team sexist or saying you intentionally made sexist content . People are just being critical of your work.
Don't misinterpret the actual argument.

Fair point and I understand.

But nothing that comes out of our studio is random, so if I read that our work is sexist I hear: "they think we intentionally made it sexist, they think we perceive women as sexual objects".

But sure, I might be overreacting, please excuse me. It`s Friday


And as I said: it`s my personal opinion, don`t take my posts as "CDPR response on social medias".

 

[Audioboxer]

I understand it's upsetting when you get dissed as has happened, but surely you have a better understanding of the issues some take with female presentation in the Witcher series than this?

I'm sure they do but they are up against one tweet encompassing a whole studio apparently going at them (it's hard not to see it this way without clarification), versus the continual stream of individual gamer critique.

Not saying studios can't have their opinions, but it is a little unusual for a company on their main Twitter to just randomly have a go at another dev. Most companies like to keep employee opinion for blogs/personal Twitter accounts.

 

[Gbraga]

Especially if you play with the "Young Geralt" mod.

eew

 

[xevis]

Booth babes don't really bother me if they want to do it, but let me assure you I do not treat women like sex objects. Point again being you cannot paint everyone with the same brush. Individuals who treat women poorly are individuals and they deserve all the fire cast down on them.

I can also find companies distasteful for using them at gaming events for all ages, but that again doesn't mean me or even the young teenagers at said events feeling women are sex objects. Shitty people are shitty people. Most of us have to believe our fellow human beings are as sane and kind as us.

Sexism is not only manifest in certain "shitty people" being shitty. It's a systematic problem; entrenched in our social structures and behavioural norms. The shit is insidious and it's constantly being reinforced through unfair depictions of women, and the role of women, in popular media. Like that shitty CDPR picture: a scantily clad woman, robbed of context and agency, being objectified in order to sell men a video game.

For those not they need to be weeded out and dealt with without decent people like me not being able to enjoy sexually stimulating content. If a women dresses at a cosplay event as Quiet and look sexy I'm allowed to appreciate that within limits. Simply looking at her without being obnoxious and staring does not cast me into male gaze or objectifying women territory.

This, right here, is exactly what I'm talking about. You're conflicted as fuck.

 

[xamidoxhua]

Revealing clothes? I say bring it on. I'm totally looking forward to a hyper sexualised high quality cyberpunk genre rpg ala Ghost in the Shell.

Spoiler

and no I'm not being sarcastic

 

[Cleve]

The underlying issue is here is why a woman should need to feel sexy to also feel empowered. Like I said in my previous post, it is a worthwhile discussion, but a tweet like that is hardly a good way to go on about it, the response in this thread makes that very clear.

The thing is, tweets are never a good way to have a worthwhile discussion about anything. The whole format is designed to prevent serious discourse. Twitter is built for one-liners and drive bys, which is precisely what the original tweet is.

 

[Velkyn]

Sexism is not only manifest in certain "shitty people" being shitty. It's a systematic problem; entrenched in our social structures and behavioural norms. The shit is insidious and it's constantly being reinforced through unfair depictions of women in popular media. Like that shitty CDPR picture: a scantily clad woman, robbed of context and agency, being objectified in order to sell men a video game.



This, right here, is exactly what I'm talking about. You're conflicted as fuck. On the one hand you want to decry overt sexism. On the other hand, you feel you should be entitled to attend public events where men can leer at women.

Oh, but wait, she's consenting so it's OK, right? Just like those booth babes, yeah? I mean, you're not groping them or actively discriminating against them, yeah? You're just having fun. They're having fun. Win win, right?

Ugh.

Excellent post. It's not the individual examples, people. It's what the examples say about what's under the surface.

 

[Sorcerer Supreme]

what a stupid tweet

 

[aeolist]

Fair point and I understand.

But nothing that comes out of our studio is random, so if I read that our work is sexist I hear: "they think we intentionally made it sexist, they think we perceive women as sexual objects".

But sure, I might be overreacting, please excuse me. It`s Friday


And as I said: it`s my personal opinion, don`t take my posts as "CDPR response on social medias".

nobody is ever deeply thoughtful and entirely self-aware about every single aspect of a creative work, even when it's a single artist producing something relatively small.

i haven't played your games much so i won't comment on them specifically, but the argument usually is that some decisions are made without a lot of thought and expose cultural bias. often that results in a treatment of female characters in a way that's different from men.

also "we have female/gay/trans/whatever employees" is not a defense. gay people can be homophobic, women can be sexist, racial minorities can be racist, etc. it's good that your studio apparently values diversity but that's not an answer to this kind of critique.

 

[UrbanRats]

Ignoring criticism doesn't magically make it go away, especially since this is something that people have brought up many times in the past.

The lack of people of colour was a hot topic after Witcher 3 launched, and so CDPR added people from Ofier in Hearts of Stone.

Nobody's perfect, no art free from problems, so why should they ignore a chance to improve themselves, when they've already evolved from the devs who made sex a set of collectible cards?

A drive-by tweet of that level isn't really constructive criticism.
The "it spawned a discussion" defense isn't worth considering either, because on the internet, literally anything "spawns a discussion" and it doesn't excuse the unprofessional and shallow nature of Chinese Room's quip.

That's really the only problem I have with this whole story.
I think Witcher 3 has its problems, on this specific subject, so i'm not against the scrutiny itself, but that doesn't imply i have to accept every other shitty pot-shot as deeply meaningful, valid and worthwhile.

So yes, CDP should definitely ignore this specific (twitter equivalent of) "shit posting".

While still trying to improve their output like they've been doing from D1.

 

[pantsmith]

Calling The Witcher 3 sexist is so misguided

1. Most powerful character in the entire *world* is a woman

2. Sorceresses are regularly considered key plot players, unimaginably powerful, and solve tons of obstacles Geralt couldnt on his own. Geralt would be fucked without them.

3. All of the main characters Geralt can romance are attracted to Geralt as a person (not just some mythic sex prop) and are completely in charge of their sexuality.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

CDProjekt RED, company of 370 employees, a lot from around the world, many women (brilliant and talented) but also minorities: gay, transsexual (we might have been one of the few companies who had transsexual lead), all treated equally with only respect and support.

But we`re called sexist for showing a boob or panties. Really?

We always aimed to tell stories about people. And there are people with boobs and people with panties. Sometimes both.





***this is my personal opinion and not of my employer***

CDPR has come a long way since the sex cards in 1. The Witcher series is hyper sexual from the source material but it also has some of the most powerful people in the universe, and in this game, be female. Geralt is always called "just a Witcher" Which is exactly what he is.

Love you guys, don't change based on the highly uncalled for tweet from another Dev. This critique is given to Game of Thrones too. The only way to avoid this argument is to give equal eye candy for the lady fans. If cyberpunk will do this then it's always something to consider.

Cheers man.

 

[Ralemont]

I'm sure they do but they are up against one tweet encompassing a whole studio apparently going at them (it's hard not to see it this way without clarification), versus the continual stream of individual gamer critique.

Not saying studios can't have their opinions, but it is a little unusual for a company on their main Twitter to just randomly have a go at another dev. Most companies like to keep employee opinion for blogs/personal Twitter accounts.

I agree and think that the tweet was completely unprofessional. Not in the sense that one company critiqued another's work (I think companies should feel free to voice their honest opinion about something) but because they did so on Twitter with massively oversimplified one-sentence snark tweet. If they wanted to take on The Witcher 3's portrayal of women, do a full-fledged post somewhere or make a video highlighting your problems. Doing it on Twitter is garbage-tier.

On the other hand, I would hope that the more reasonable criticism of women's portrayal in The Witcher series is something that CDPR is at least considering. I'll be honest that most of my issues come with the art department as opposed to the writing. By and large I think TW3's female characters are written quite well. Which makes it all the more puzzling when they are wearing something dumb like Corinne Tilly is.

 

[Alpha Phoenix]

A drive-by tweet of that level isn't really constructive criticism.
The "it spawned a discussion" defense isn't worth considering either, because on the internet, literally anything "spawns a discussion" and it doesn't excuse the unprofessional and shallow nature of Chinese Room's quip.

Yup.

 

[ElTorro]

This, right here, is exactly what I'm talking about. You're conflicted as fuck.

I still read the part that you edited away, and I think that you could grant women who decide to dress themselves in a way they like more agency and self-responsiblity. Systemic issues do not exclusively determine the actions of people. While they have an influence, people are nevertheless not zombies who can't help but be driven by systemic dynamics. They have their own will and opinion.

 

[iNvid02]

So they have no right to an opinion because this isn't a personal Twitter account? And why on Earth would something like this be used to drum up sales? You think someone reading this tweet is going to think "Oh, I should go play Everybody's Gone to the Rapture now that I saw this tweet about sexism in games!"

Come on.

where did I say they have no right to an opinion? i said twitter's 140 characters are insufficient for proper critique which is necessary for topics like this, especially when you're doing it as a company against a fellow dev.

but thats the thing, this is not critique, even if the people at that company share the same stance, its just an offhanded comment designed to stir up some controversy, and you're naive if you think this becoming news is not going to affect their sales -
"never heard of them but hey they're against sexism, well damn so i am I, lets check out their games at least"

if you are passionate about this or any other issue feel free to write something about it, but dont fling a 140 character tweet taking shit out context on your company's account a couple of weeks after your pc port debuted to shit sales because your publisher thinks its knows better than valve's suggested pricing

 

[Audioboxer]

Sexism is not only manifest in certain "shitty people" being shitty. It's a systematic problem; entrenched in our social structures and behavioural norms. The shit is insidious and it's constantly being reinforced through unfair depictions of women in popular media. Like that shitty CDPR picture: a scantily clad woman, robbed of context and agency, being objectified in order to sell men a video game.



This, right here, is exactly what I'm talking about. You're conflicted as fuck. On the one hand you want to decry overt sexism. On the other hand, you feel you should be entitled to attend public events where men can leer at women.

Oh, but wait, she's consenting so it's OK, right? Just like those booth babes, yeah? I mean, you're not groping them or actively discriminating against them, yeah? You're just having fun. They're having fun. Win win, right?

Ugh.

It's a tricky one, but first and foremost I'm responsible for my morals, my behaviour and my ability to be a sane human. I cannot be held responsible for others.

For your first point I have absolutely no doubt large populations of men are sexists, and pretty abhorrent people. Where I'm conflicted is because I can enjoy sex, sexual themes and yes, find it entertaining, but be respectful at all times, and when others can't should that somehow infringe on my ability to enjoy sex? Or others like me? I don't want laws for women to cover up (like in some countries), I don't want the government policing online porn (other than going after sex trafficking/violence/etc) and I don't want adult based entertainment whether it is games or books not be allowed to show and embrace sex.

So yeah that is why it is tricky. I see the world through my own eyes, and do my best to give leeway for crazy people to somehow be prevented as strongly as possible from offending (authority reporting/ratings on games and other media/report tools on social media/etc). The issue though is when my freedoms and rights have to be curbed to try and stop others from abusing women/objectifying them. That's the game of low expectations. To stop the worst of society the best of society has to be punished also.

I'm not sure how you stop leering at a public event. Just in the same way as how do you stop it on a beach? Make it a criminal offence to stare longer than 10 seconds? Sadly it's part of being human, and people stare. If you feel confident to tell someone to stop you can, or if in a public space and genuinely feeling harassed you can contact authorities/event staff. Booth babes can be stopped by companies, cosplay of characters women want to dress as can't really. Unless there is full nudity. So said women will cosplay and leerers will sadly forever exist. The women shouldn't stop though, but for balance lets not pretend females wouldn't have a quick glance at a strapping man dressed scantily as Kratos. To not accept some reality is to be dishonest. What is respectful though is to know moral boundaries and even if you find someone attractive, which is normal, give them respect, space and don't be rude.

 

[Commanche Raisin Toast]

No one is calling you or team sexist or saying you intentionally made sexist content . People are just being critical of your work.
Don't misinterpret the actual argument.

i think you're giving the tweet too much credit.

it's literally implying that the Witcher games are sexist and that the image is reinforcing their opinion on the studio as making sexist games, because here comes another one apparently.

if you disagree then please explain what the actual argument is for us. to me it seems a bit of a stretch to classify a drive by shitpost on twitter as simple criticism. had their been follow up tweets actually going into detail what their position is, then sure.

 

[Dance Inferno]

So a female character can't acknowledge that they have sex appeal and flaunt it or else it's sexist???

This is unintentionally hilarious, I'm sorry. You do realize that these are not real women who exist in real life and were suddenly cast in a top tier videogame, right? They were intentionally created by mostly male developers from the ground up, and every single one of the female characters in The Witcher 3 was developed with some form of sex appeal. Meanwhile you have a wide range of male characters, from the Bloody Baron to King Foltest who have no sex appeal and are instead developed around their personalities.

This whole "sexy women in videogames are empowering to real women" is a bullshit excuse for overt sexism.

 

[Velkyn]

where did I say they have no right to an opinion? i said twitter's 140 characters are insufficient for proper critique which is necessary for topics like this, especially when you're doing it as a company against a fellow dev.

but thats the thing, this is not critique, even if the people at that company share the same stance, its just an offhanded comment designed to stir up some controversy, and you're naive if you think this becoming news is not going to affect their sales -
"never heard of them but hey they're against sexism, well damn so i am I, lets check out their games at least"

if you are passionate about this or any other issue feel free to write something about it, but dont fling a 140 character tweet taking shit out context on your company's account a couple of weeks after your pc port debuted to shit sales

I agree with your first point, maybe an open letter would have been more appropriate, but I do appreciate the discussion it started here. But honestly I think it's a little disengenous to think they're trying to drum up press because of their PC port not selling well. That seems a bit biased to assume.

 

[Gbraga]

You can be excited for the product. Doesn't change the fact that the design is stupid. The stupidity of the design doesn't change with the context you provided.

I don't think that you trying to sell the concepts of the game is going to change the fact that the character design is shit.

Wait, wait, wait, how is that a fact? Are we calling our opinions facts now?

About the design itself and how it compares to Deus Ex, Adam is not in "his background", as I used as an example. Why is she dressed like that? Probably a dancer at some club or whatever. The thing is, that's not really "her design". It techincally is, but that's not how she looks like during the actual story. She's not supposed to be a badass cop wearing those clothes, she's just someone who went berserk and had to be stopped. She's not "a killing machine dressing sexy", she became a killing machine unwillingly, and killed a bunch of people. Her clothes are not supposed to match her actions here, because her actions are out of character.

When she becomes part of the squad that goes after people who go berserk, she uses their uniform, even has her head shaved. She's not supposed to subvert expectations and make you think "ooh, strong female character", how did you arrive at that conclusion? Did you really watch the trailer? And if you did, you clearly already had your conclusions before even watching, because that's absolutely not what's presented. She's not a badass female character, she's broken. And appears "fixed" (whether that's a good or bad thing remains to be seen in the final game) at the end. Now wearing fitting clothes to her actions (like she probably was before she went berserk. It's not like she was "dressing to kill").

Your criticism would work better if that was her design for the game and she was a member of the party dressing that way, and supposed to be part of the "sexy but deadly" trope or whatever. That's not the case.

The screenshots only show the face because that's all that appears in the trailer, unfortunately, but you can see enough to be sure she's not wearing that dress anymore, but their uniform.

And I'm not trying to sell the concepts of the game, I'm explaining context. As I said, "for both sides", the whole "choosing to have sex appeal" argument also becomes useless when you learn that it's not what's happening at all.

 

[dave is ok]

The shit is insidious and it's constantly being reinforced through unfair depictions of women, and the role of women, in popular media. Like that shitty CDPR picture: a scantily clad woman, robbed of context and agency, being objectified in order to sell men a video game..

The 'popular media' the thumbnail was from was a 3D scanning session for a teaser of a game that won't even be released for 3-5 years probably. No one is even trying to sell a game yet, at this point they're advertising to prospective employees who want to work on the game being criticized.

Why not wait for the game to be released or even demo'd before criticizing it?

 

[DocSeuss]

I watched the trailer, and I don't feel that is any better. I don't think that you trying to sell the concepts of the game is going to change the fact that the character design is shit.

Let's use Adam Jensen as a comparison for concept. The famous concept art of Jensen from Deus Ex Human Revolution.

Jensen is lying back in a moment of reflection, judging from the cigarette and the shot glass. His mechanical hands holding each of the items emphasizes his 'inhuman' state. His body is bandaged, he has holes all around his upper body. He's wearing pants, and you don't really see anything below his waist.

Why is a female presented this way in this picture that Cyberpunk fans post over and over again as if it is something to be proud of?

If she were a killing robot weapon, shouldn't she just have no clothes, no hair, and be made of machinery? Why did they have to pick that particular portrayal: skimpy tight tube short dress with clear view of of her crotch? Why did she have to be kneeling like that as opposed to a battle position on her feet, since she was killing 14 people? (By the way, the dumbest thing in that trailer has to be the bullets shattering on her skimpy dress lol)

...

The Cyberpunk trailer started with the frame close in too, on the character's face, and then drew back until you realized she wasn't human. That's something that can be done with the Ex Machina design too, yet the Cyberpunk design insists on hair, skimpy clothes, and questionable pose and positioning.

You don't seem to understand what's happening.

A woman with an addiction to cybernetic implants went clubbing.

The thing about cyborgs in the Cyberpunk universe is that people who do a lot of mods eventually go crazy and kill people. It's a stat in the tabletop game's mechanics iirc. Forgetting the official term for it, but that's what she is. She is a person who took body modification too far. She was out clubbing (hence the mention that she killed a bunch of people in a nightclub in the trailer).

Psycho Squad recruited her rather than killed her. The description of the trailer is "how Psycho Squad might find a new recruit" or something, iirc.

So you have a woman who's dressed up to go clubbing, not "a killing machine."

 

[Cabbagehead]

You don't seem to understand what's happening.

A woman with an addiction to cybernetic implants went clubbing.

The thing about cyborgs in the Cyberpunk universe is that people who do a lot of mods eventually go crazy and kill people. It's a stat in the tabletop game's mechanics iirc. Forgetting the official term for it, but that's what she is. She is a person who took body modification too far. She was out clubbing (hence the mention that she killed a bunch of people in a nightclub in the trailer).

Psycho Squad recruited her rather than killed her.

So you have a woman who's dressed up to go clubbing, not "a killing machine."

People see what they want to see. Screw context.

it's just amazing to see it in action.

 

[Gbraga]

You don't seem to understand what's happening.

A woman with an addiction to cybernetic implants went clubbing.

The thing about cyborgs in the Cyberpunk universe is that people who do a lot of mods eventually go crazy and kill people. It's a stat in the tabletop game's mechanics iirc. Forgetting the official term for it, but that's what she is. She is a person who took body modification too far. She was out clubbing (hence the mention that she killed a bunch of people in a nightclub in the trailer).

Psycho Squad recruited her rather than killed her. The description of the trailer is "how Psycho Squad might find a new recruit" or something, iirc.

So you have a woman who's dressed up to go clubbing, not "a killing machine."

Oh, that's correct! I forgot about this aspect, it's not only braindancing that's dangerous and can affect behaviour (like reliving a killer's memories giving you the lust to kill), the body changes themselves also make people go nuts.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

Fair point and I understand.

But nothing that comes out of our studio is random, so if I read that our work is sexist I hear: "they think we intentionally made it sexist, they think perceive women as sexual objects".

But sure, I might be overreacting, please excuse me. It`s Friday


And as I said: it`s my personal opinion, don`t take my posts as "CDPR response on social medias".

I understand why you would have that reaction, it's undoubtedly a " loaded" word but it's not something to make you defensive and ignore criticism.
Be it this tweet or anything else. You make great games, be proud of that but as we all know there's always room to improve and that it's good to be challenged. Was this tweet out the blue and maybe not as constructive as could it be? Sure, but hopefully you take something good away from it.

 

[Velkyn]

The issue though is when my freedoms and rights have to be curbed to try and stop others from abusing women/objectifying them. That's the game of low expectations. To stop the worst of society the best of society has to be punished also.

I'm not sure how you stop leering at a public event. Just in the same way as how do you stop it on a beach? Make it a criminal offence to stare longer than 10 seconds? Sadly it's part of being human, and people stare. If you feel confident to tell someone to stop you can, or if in a public space and genuinely feeling harassed you can contact authorities/event staff. Booth babes can be stopped by companies, cosplay of characters women want to dress as can't really. Unless there is full nudity. So said women will cosplay and leerers will sadly forever exist. The women shouldn't stop though.

No one is talking about curbing your rights or freedoms, at all, in the least. Not even a bit.

As for your bit about staring...Dude, you're an adult. I think you should know how to conduct yourself in public without creeping women out, the same as every other adult should. There doesn't need to be a law, and you shouldn't need to be told to cut it out. As long as your jaw isn't hanging and you're not standing in place for more than a few seconds, it's perfectly fine to look. Cosplayers do what they do because they love making costumes and portraying the characters they love. But there's a fairly obvious line you cross that would make appreciation of a cosplayer creepy. I shouldn't need to tell anyone what that line is.

 

[Tecnniqe]

They were intentionally created by mostly male developers from the ground up

Exactly how many of the female characters were made by male versus females in their studio? What gender is the artists who outlined this to begin with?

Also, exactly how many of the male characters were made by male versus females in their studio? What gender is the artists who outlined this to begin with?

Meanwhile you have a wide range of male characters, from the Bloody Baron to King Foltest who have no sex appeal and are instead developed around their personalities.

Again, most of the characters fit with the set era they are in, time-wise.
Usually the "big" people we're large powerful males, and you do have some more amped up male characters with a nice appeal to them. Sex appeal is not 100% fact, its a person to person basis.

As an example; Olgierd looks like a handsome dude.

 

[Tiops]

Wait, wait, wait, how is that a fact? Are we calling our opinions facts now?

Yeah, that confused me a little bit lmao. The "fact" that the design is bad. Since when can we state that some piece of art is bad as a fact?

 

[Audioboxer]

No one is talking about curbing your rights or freedoms, at all, in the least. Not even a bit.

As for your bit about staring...Dude, you're an adult. I think you should know how to conduct yourself in public without creeping women out, the same as every other adult should. There doesn't need to be a law, and you shouldn't need to be told to cut it out. As long as your jaw isn't hanging and you're not standing in place for more than a few seconds, it's perfectly fine to look. Cosplayers do what they do because they love making costumes and portraying the characters they love. But there's a fairly obvious line you cross that would make appreciation of a cosplayer creepy. I shouldn't need to tell anyone what that line is.

When devs potentially start to feel pressured into changing things due to outrage it may not directly infringe on me but I worry as a collective for freedom of speech/freedom of artistic merit. I love videogames and I guess it's just a weakness of mine to take this debate so seriously. I think the government argument is more directly aimed at me, considering it's my PM David Cameron who was/is toying with the online porn banning stuff. Where there is smoke there is fire though, and without a doubt the topic of sex causes all sorts of moral debates and verges into censorship arguments globally. Like said women in certain countries who couldn't even show off a leg. Sexual repression is rampant in our world as well. Thankfully not in most Western countries, but the topic of it rears it's head here on occasion.

I think you're aiming that second part at the wrong guy, or have misunderstood my point. I was replying to that poster with trying to say most of us do know how to behave, but how do you stop those who don't at a public event? I know there doesn't need to be a law but in reply to that poster I was trying to draw out how tricky it is to en-masse curb such behaviour in public. Hence why I brought up the beach.

 

[Zolo]

Sure, but hopefully you take something good away from it.

That lesson is Twitter (and clickbait headlines) do not make for good discussion. This certainly isn't the first time the trailer or Witcher 3 has been called sexist, and there have been other articles/posts/whatever tools used that are better than Twitter to do it.

 

[GrantDaNasty]

All this thread (and the first few pages) proves is that our monkey-brains are still just that.

I'm not saying TCR nor CDPR is in the right here, just that a bunch of salty folks complaining about people being salty is always hilarious.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

This is unintentionally hilarious, I'm sorry. You do realize that these are not real women who exist in real life and were suddenly cast in a top tier videogame, right? They were intentionally created by mostly male developers from the ground up, and every single one of the female characters in The Witcher 3 was developed with some form of sex appeal. Meanwhile you have a wide range of male characters, from the Bloody Baron to King Foltest who have no sex appeal and are instead developed around their personalities.

This whole "sexy women in videogames are empowering to real women" is a bullshit excuse for overt sexism.

But there are plenty of women in the game with no sex appeal too, the bloody baron quest alone has plenty.

The sorceresses look the way they do because of reasons given in the novel itself, they're supposed to be these beautiful women who love to look sexy because they've kept up their looks throughout the years with magic. Yennefer herself is the clear cut example of someone that used to be ugly that made herself beautiful.

Geralt largely deals with sorceresses in the game. These guys didn't go "yeah let's dress them super sexy because fuck all".

 

[Bolivar687]

We need to stop throwing around sexism allegations like frisbees. It dilutes the significance of its connotation.

All this thread (and the first few pages) proves is that our monkey-brains are still just that.

I'm not saying TCR nor CDPR is in the right here, just that a bunch of salty folks complaining about people being salty is always hilarious.

Thank you for your meaningful contribution to the discussion - we're thrilled you find us hilarious.

 

[conman]

I'm surprised this is a question. CDPR's games are totally sexist. I enjoy them, but that doesn't mean they aren't sexist as hell. And, man, that trailer for Cyberpunk 2077 is the classic version of sci-fi sexism. Android sexbots vs. "hard" men with guns and armor. And the only woman cop is made to be looked at as a sexual object, no less than the killer sexbot. It's not like they're calling for the violent oppression of women or anything, but they are certainly promulgating common sexist tropes.

All of that said, finger-pointing from another studio is just poor form. You just don't do that. Leave the finger pointing to the audience and critics. If you're another studio, just trust that your work will speak for itself. Calling someone else out is some Kanye-level bullshit.

We need to stop throwing around sexism allegations like frisbees. It dilutes the significance of its connotation.

...or it just might be a sign that sexism is, in fact, incredibly common and deserves highlighting so that we don't just accept it as the norm.

 

[Aceshighhhh]

at least they make good ones

One and done

 

[Commanche Raisin Toast]

I still read the part that you edited away, and I think that you could grant women who decide to dress themselves in a way they like more agency and self-responsiblity. Systemic issues do not exclusively determine the actions of people. While they have an influence, people are nevertheless not zombies who can't help but be driven by systemic dynamics. They have their own will and opinion.

i've always wanted to discuss this bit further in relation to videogame characters.

they are written, but are they written to make their own choices for their own reasons? it's a bit of a catch 22, but i always like to give characters the benefit of the doubt and assume that they do they things they do, and present themselves the way they choose based on their own reasons and their own backstories. it's what makes characters believable. i don't think writers should have to detail the entire day by day backstory of anyone to justify a corset or something either.

in some ways i feel like those that criticize the attire or presentation of certain game characters to be giving them or their gender LESS credibility than the game makers themselves. it's all a matter of perspective, and it can be frustrating to see some people tear down others because their perspective doesn't (and can't) align with their own.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

i've always wanted to discuss this bit further in relation to videogame characters.

I believe the context here was cosplayers, not video game characters. I could be wrong.

 

[Cabbagehead]

I'm surprised this is a question. CDPR's games are totally sexist. I enjoy them, but that doesn't mean they aren't sexist as hell. And, man, that trailer for Cyberpunk 2077 is the classic version of sci-fi sexism. Android sexbots vs. "hard" men with guns and armor. And the only woman cop is made to be looked at as a sexual object, no less than the killer sexbot. It's not like they're calling for the violent oppression of women or anything, but they are certainly promulgating common sexist tropes.

All of that said, finger-pointing from another studio is just poor form. You just don't do that. Leave the finger pointing to the audience and critics. If you're another studio, just trust that your work will speak for itself. Calling someone else out is some Kanye-level bullshit.

...or it just might be a sign that sexism is, in fact, incredibly common and deserves highlighting so that we don't just accept it as the norm.

Here another one missing the context of that trailer and it's larger narrative.

She's not a sexbot. Jesus and she is the cop at the end. Do research.

 

[aeolist]

We need to stop throwing around sexism allegations like frisbees. It dilutes the significance of its connotation.

this tweet was badly put, but the bigger problem is people hearing "sexist" (or racist or whatever) as a criticism directed at a creative work and taking it personally

saying a game has a problem with depictions of women doesn't mean every single person who was involved with its creation is a misogynist wife-beater

 

[xevis]

I still read the part that you edited away, and I think that you could grant women who decide to dress themselves in a way they like more agency and self-responsiblity. Systemic issues do not exclusively determine the actions of people. While they have an influence, people are nevertheless not zombies who can't help but be driven by systemic dynamics. They have their own will and opinion.

I edited to improve clarity and focus. No information was lost

Anyway, I agree with your point but I think it's worth pointing out that systemic sexism acts like blinders on society: it gives tacit approval to problematic behaviour and it suggests that women have limited roles to play, especially in relation to men.

Where I'm conflicted is because I can enjoy sex, sexual themes and yes, find it entertaining, but be respectful at all times, and when others can't should that somehow infringe on my ability to enjoy sex?

Women can be sexy, and you can enjoy that. Where it becomes problematic is when women are asked to objectify themselves for the sole reason of satisfying the sexual pleasures of men. That's hugely disempowering and exploitative.

Or others like me? I don't want laws for women to cover up (like in some countries), I don't want the government policing online porn (other than going after sex trafficking/violence/etc) and I don't want adult based entertainment whether it is games or books not be allowed to show and embrace sex.

Strawman. Nobody is asking for such things. Certainly not me.

The issue though is when my freedoms and rights have to be curbed to try and stop others from abusing women/objectifying them. That's the game of low expectations. To stop the worst of society the best of society has to be punished also.

You do not have a "right" to consume objectification.

 

[thumb]

You don't seem to understand what's happening.

A woman with an addiction to cybernetic implants went clubbing.

The thing about cyborgs in the Cyberpunk universe is that people who do a lot of mods eventually go crazy and kill people. It's a stat in the tabletop game's mechanics iirc. Forgetting the official term for it, but that's what she is. She is a person who took body modification too far. She was out clubbing (hence the mention that she killed a bunch of people in a nightclub in the trailer).

Psycho Squad recruited her rather than killed her. The description of the trailer is "how Psycho Squad might find a new recruit" or something, iirc.

So you have a woman who's dressed up to go clubbing, not "a killing machine."

Right, but why highlight these circumstances vs. any others in the trailer? It's not as though the developers simply *had* to highlight an incident involving a very sexualized woman. The choice is an artistic one, and it can be critiqued as yet another instance of intense female sexualization in the games industry.

Whenever you make art, you have to think about context and history. Showing a bunch of white people enjoying watermelon is different than showing the same scene with black people, because of context and history. Right now, the context and history of the games industry is one of intense female sexualization and sometimes objectification. That's going to change how scenes like this one are interpreted.