Star Fox Zero |OT| The Fox Awakens
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Spring-Loaded
Member
The most complex thing most people do while driving is changing lanes.
Aquarosa locks the 3rd-person view too.
It's apparently not satisfying for some people, and since htese sequences would still be playable without the dual screen (and certainly not the simultaneous dual screen presence), there should be an option to avoid it entirely.
If there's an option to have the cockpit view itself lock onto targets — either forcing the ship to circle it once it reaches the edge of the cockpit view, or breaking the lock-on once that happens, or merely showing an arrow pointing off-screen to show where they went — then it wouldn't "take everything away of how an actual dogfight works," nor would it take anything away from how you play it. You're telling someone the way that game would be more enjoyable for them is wrong and/or impossible when there's no real alternative to the one way it is in the game.
There are ways around it, but Nintendo could've be arsed with putting in alternatives for some reason.
Saying there's no right way to play has nothing to do with whether I'm perplexed by someone having trouble circling an object in a vast open space with nothing to run into.
Me saying there's no right way to play was in regards to which screen you look at. I'm all over the map on this front: The other day I replayed Corneria 1 almost entirely in vehicle view, but tomorrow I may play entirely in cockpit view. Depends on what I want to do and how I want to do it. Dat flexibility, yo.
But again: I agree that more options are always good. I don't know if you read my posts or just skim for a positive impression and then criticize accordingly, but I actually prescribed some changes they could patch in if they wanted. For example, an option to remap controls, saving multiple controller profiles on a per-vehicle basis. Also, an option to toggle on a laser sight for vehicle view that would connect the tip of your ship to the on-screen reticle, eliminating any "disconnected" feeling people may have when shooting on the TV. Think how RE4 did it.
I also wouldn't be opposed to an aim assist option for those who really struggle. Everyone is wired differently and we take to different things in different ways. That's human nature, baby. It's beautiful!
And who knows: Maybe they'll continue to add features. Pikmin 3 was another Miyamoto brainchild, and that game went on to to have many features added, including the option to play with the touchscreen!
Huh, I never noticed that a single tap can barrel-roll. Pretty sure that's impossible, but since I'm working right now I'll take your word for it! You're definitely right about both sticks turning sharper, though. I love that feature since it really feels like you're slamming hard to bank!
I go from using strictly cockpit view (sometimes on the tv only, sometimes gamepad only) to using only the 3rd person view, though for the latter, there are many times it isn't good enough as the reticule is worthless for far away shots, something that should just be fixed. That wouldn't be so bad if the "switch tv/gamepad," input was the right stick click. I could easily get used to using the right shoulder button for bombs if it meant I never needed to look at the gamepad.
But yes, you being perplexed by people having trouble going form a first-person view to a Resident Evil-style fixed camera view shows a lack of empathy/understanding of the complaints of disorientation. It works for me, but there's nothing about it that's so amazing and functional that the way it currently is in the game should be the only way it works. Resident Evil 4 still has a fixed camera behind the player character, so that's not an apt comparison. Something like REmake would be closer, if every time you aimed in that game, it went into first person mode, and your character was constantly moving forward.
It's good though that you've finally admitted to some of this game's grievous failings in how it presents its controls. Going by some of your earlier posts, i didn't think you'd manage it
And yes, tap left-to-right or right-to-left on the right stick and you'll barrel roll, something that can happen inadvertently while trying to quickly change directions. It's similar to the (horrid) back-foward joystick inputs in Metal Gear Rising. Try it here, don't merely take my word for it, and then come back and say you tried it.
There's no good reason for turn to exist on both the left and right sticks though. It'd be better if left stick was purely for moving around and right stick for turning, boost and brake. Not sure if boosting is even necessary if the movement is calibrated properly — you could have straight up Splatoon controls and not need to lock-on to strafe. If there isn't a good way to avoid having turning on both sticks, then Nintendo painted themselves into a corner.
- Target View acts as a rearview mirror when the target you lock on is behind you. Allows you to quickly locate rival fighters even if they're behind you on the other side of the planet (literally — see opening fight to Venom). Also allows you to keep tabs on targets that would kill you head-on, or to put distance between you and a target while angling around to find its weak point (or point of infiltration, as the case may be). For me it's a Z-targeting level of advancement for fights, and for a guest I had over today, it made for an entertaining viewing experience.
I appreciate that you're trying to help me understand the controls, but for me I just don't see a way that this view will work that isn't going to be clumsy and time wasting. While fighting Pigma, I ended up with the TV being useless for piloting towards him in space since it's incredibly awkward to try to maneuver from the angles you end up at, and as I said the gamepad view only showed me a blank patch of space. I tried to orient the pad to where Pigma was to shoot him, but by the time I finally found him he was usually flying right past me with only enough time to land a shot or two.
I gave up trying to lock on and just flew normally and killed him much, much faster. The lock on view not only did nothing to help, but it actively got in the way by confusing my orientation so badly. Even reading your post, I see no way in which any of those ideas can actually work based on my experience so far. For instance, your point about locking onto enemies behind you... isn't that a matter of chance? It's not as if you're going to position your ship so that the enemy is in just such a position that locking in will provide you a useful view. Whether or not you end up being able to see the enemy in a useful way when you lock seems to be up to dumb luck.
As far as the walker goes, I'm not actually trying to turn with the gyro... it just happens to do it when you aim far enough. The dead zones involved are kind of weird and it just feels off to me. It's not terrible, and it's workable enough, but I'd prefer total separation.
The best way to control everything I've found is to treat it like Splatoon, or a gyro version of Sin and Punishment, and just focus on the TV and use the gyro to aim. It's not as good as the remote's IR, and the targeting reticle is often skewed so that your shots don't go where you feel they should, but it works well enough that I can enjoy playing. The problem is that the forced lock-ons really disrupt this and jar my view over and over. As soon as the game locks me onto something, I try to break it as soon as I can.
It allows you to locate an enemy very fast, yes. The problem is then navigating to them/orienting your ship into an attack position. It's just not doable using the TV view, which is intended to be your piloting screen. The way the arwing turns while locked on is just totally awful. Using the gamepad leaves you with a tighter, zoomed in view that makes it much harder to see your surroundings, so trying to locate a ship in the vastness of space is harder than it would be on the TV. Again, I see no purpose for doing it this way aside from just forcing the second screen into use. SF64 gave you a first person view that was kind of useful for shooting, but it was pretty awful for flying for the reasons I mentioned above; you don't have a good sense of your surroundings, meaning it's harder to see enemy ships and it's harder to avoid obstacles (which still exist even in space battles).
I was under the impression that there was an option that played like 64, where your laser was locked with ship movement, and that this is what the "classic" setting he was using was. People were mentioning such a thing being a "fall back" for the motion before release... Guess I'm wrong about that.
Well like I said many pages ago, for people like you, they should let you remap the controls.
That last bit is so needlessly dramatic, haha.
I think the game presents its controls fine. The tutorial is very gentle (although I think there should've been an extra round for shooting/evading). But clearly extra options would've helped certain people. I've been prescribing extra options since earlier in this thread and others.
Also, I thought I made it clear, but when I brought up RE (and specifically said RE4), my point now (as it was then, pages ago) is for the laser pointer to be applied to vehicle view. I wasn't talking about RE in the context of target view. I was saying a laser from the tip of the ship to the onscreen reticle in vehicle view would help eliminate the disconnected feel some have.
Trust me, I can empathize with how we're wired differently. I only learned to use tank controls in old-school RE this year after a decade of trying on and off. (Although a key difference: I never derided old-school RE as "bad" for my inability to figure it out.)
The reason why I find the target view less concerning for those who struggle with it is they're not really in danger: You're in a wide open area, with nothing but the boss at the center of the screen to worry about. It gives you a frame of reference for the five fights that mandate it.
I personally like boosting mapped to forward and braking mapped to pulling back since those motions seem to match the resulting action.Spring-Loaded said:
I'm pretty indifferent to the barrel-rolling. As for banking, I think there's utility there since it gives you different tiers of turning: Wide turns, tight turns, and everything in between.
I suspect, for better or for worse (YMMV, clearly), Miyamoto was treating this game similar to Steel Diver where he wanted it to feel like you're really controlling a machine. At least with regards to the twin-stick turning, I'd say he succeeded in a good way. It seems intuitive to slam both for max turning, kind of like how some people naturally shake their controller for an extra jump in Mario, and so they turned that into an actual mechanic in the NSMB series.
Again, just my take. It's OK if you don't like something!
Thanks. And I googled alt. paths. GOt results super fast, lol.
Yeah, I imagine it's the most searched query for this game, haha.
If you're likening it to a car, I'd say it's like suddenly having to look through the rear view mirror to drive instead of being able to just look out the windshield. Imagine driving to the store and having your view fixed on the destination, looking through yards and parking lots without seeing the road ahead of you.
In order to avoid this, you're pretty much forced to use the gamepad view to fly while locked on, which I mentioned above is not ideal at all. Your field of view is pretty limited, which is why the zoomed out arwing view on the TV was intended for piloting in the first place.
I wasn't saying I want a system like that, just that it's the only way the current system would make sense to me. The only use it has right now is just locking on to see where an enemy is and then quitting so you can pilot freely again, which doesn't seem to be how it's intended to be used. The game seems designed so that you'll stay locked on the whole time, and a lot of the bosses and battles have been designed with gimmicks to make that "useful." Outside of those specific encounters, it's pretty poor. Yes, it gives you an idea of where the enemy is, but the moment you lock on your ability to pilot your ship is dramatically reduced by being forced to use the cockpit view.
I'm pretty sure it does, I just played last night. The gyro and analog stick seem to do the same thing... small movements move the cursor, larger movements cause the camera to turn.
I usually use X and B and Y during gameplay, since I have inconsistent luck doing somersaults and U-turns the old fashioned way now that it uses analog input. I end up having to switch my thumb over and tap the stick twice, which is not really as quick as just tapping the trigger your digit is already on. Obviously, using the right stick only is the better way to play and I'm adjusting to that, but no matter what it will always be more awkward than just using the triggers.
Refreshment.01
Member
Hahaha... What about racing? XD There's a lot of sight shifting and head turning.
Yet, is not necessary. A glance of the screen tels you the relative positioning. Then you can use your cockpit view to make the necessary navigation adjustments if you are having trouble with the panaromic view on the TV screen.
Yes, there's a reason, i' ve explained it in a previous post.
To repeat, the reason is that it makes sense for some simultaneous actions. When boosting for example, you have more control for making small turns or adjustments of the Walker direction by using the left stick. That's the reason why strafe it's only available when locking.
You just need to look at the Gyro Wing to understand why that compromise was made for the Walker.
Bare in mind, im not defending or condemning the method, i just explained why it was decided to implement it in that way XD
You know, the thing is people are ignoring the general picture of what they were trying to achieve here.
Take the "3D Sound" for example. When using the Gamepad is not just chatter, the vehicle and environmental sounds surrounding the craft are coming from it. a good example, is when Star Fox Team enters the Corneria atmosphere, the sound and vibration of hitting the gas mass at high velocity is conveyed rather well.
Having a screen, sounds and vibration coming from an object so close to the player is part of the experience. It's replicating an arcade experience and getting the player closer to knoe how operating one of these vehicles would feel. In that sense, using motion and sticks works better than just pushing buttons.
SpacePirate Ridley
Member
The only BIG problem I have with the controls is them trying to include u turns and loops to weird joystick combinations you do at the worst moments most of the time.
I prefered if there was an option to only leave them to the buttons.
Also the barrels rolls in the joysticks, but I know because of how your hands are positioned, putting them in L and R would have hurt.
I understand why they didnt (theres a high probabilty of everyone touching the ceiling score at the end and leaderboards being nothing but repeated scores), but I think Zallard's videos also demonstrate how its not that easy to get to that ceiling of perfection, and having leaderboards could have been great with a little of work.
Yes, you have stages like aquarosa with ceilings of points super easy to get being patient, but they could have easily attached time scores to those ones also, so its not only getting a perfect score there, but also how much time it took.
And have 3 different leaderboards, each for the normal, retro and black airwing.
I prefered if there was an option to only leave them to the buttons.
Also the barrels rolls in the joysticks, but I know because of how your hands are positioned, putting them in L and R would have hurt.
I understand why they didnt (theres a high probabilty of everyone touching the ceiling score at the end and leaderboards being nothing but repeated scores), but I think Zallard's videos also demonstrate how its not that easy to get to that ceiling of perfection, and having leaderboards could have been great with a little of work.
Yes, you have stages like aquarosa with ceilings of points super easy to get being patient, but they could have easily attached time scores to those ones also, so its not only getting a perfect score there, but also how much time it took.
And have 3 different leaderboards, each for the normal, retro and black airwing.
Refreshment.01
Member
No, im not forced to look at the Gamepad to navigate when the Z lock is forced. For Aquarosa i use the panoramic to see which canon will fire or to asses the length of the Electromagnetic shield and judge when it's a good time to take care of the canons. Or when fighting Andross for dodging the lasers.
i think asking a bit of coordination and learning from players shouldn't be satanized. Not when the controls work well save for how much a person is willing or not to adpat.
No, the reticule or the gyroscope doesn't rotate the Walker aound the Y axis. However, it does let you look up and down.
SOrry to hear that. You need to insist and train yourself accordingly and not relay in the buttons for those manuvers. As long as you hit Left Up plus Right Down/Up at the same time it will register. It is more interesting in terms of "feelback" to hit the sticks than tapping a button for such maneuvers.
NAh... You don't need R and L for barrel rolls, one button is enough.
i do think it would be good for everybody if they mapped the BArrel Rolls to L bumper and the Camera Change to the Right Thumbstick Click. But still keep Barrel Rolls when hitting the sticks in the same direction twice (since this is a very intuitive way to apply them) and get rid of Barrel Rolling when hitting left to right or right to left quickly, as it could cause accidental inputs with the walker.
Yesterday, after many tries, I perfected Andross.
Feels good, mang. I feel like I'm starting to nail the arwing and walker now...yet I'm only at 18 medals, I need to start hunting these, but so far I'm having fun trying to get the top score for each stages...which is quite a challenge so far, honestly.
Feels good, mang. I feel like I'm starting to nail the arwing and walker now...yet I'm only at 18 medals, I need to start hunting these, but so far I'm having fun trying to get the top score for each stages...which is quite a challenge so far, honestly.
I've barely been going for medals. I just like replaying levels for fun, and when I find/earn a medal, it's just a happy accident. I might seek them out at some point, but it sounds like many of them are so well-hidden they would require a guide.
Refreshment.01
Member
The Star WOlf fight? No, i remmeber beating him in Walker form without any forced lock. Maybe im wrong.
On the other hand, do you mean Dodora? Well, no. In both fights the Z lock is leaved to the players desire. In fact Nerrel, do some practice runs against Dodora in Fortuna, i think is a good showcase to learn the dual view dynamic. Quite handy to get a sense of orientation and to avoid the tornados the Monarch produces when faning those gigantic wings.
However, Titania does force the lock against the Worm. But i don't think you would want to play without any way. It works really well in here. Cockpit view shoot down the weak points, panoramic view for navigating when the worm sucks up the sand.
Ah, I think you're right. Thanks for the corrections!
I'm like 90% sure that if you're in the arwing the game forces target lock on you when Wolf is doing his lightening tornado run. Not sure about when your in the walker but almost definitely sure if its the arwing.
On another note this games rendition of All Clear is down right beautiful. Just the right amount of triumphant fanfare for having saved the galaxy.
On another note this games rendition of All Clear is down right beautiful. Just the right amount of triumphant fanfare for having saved the galaxy.
Nothing, nothing's wrong... ;w;
I finished all the stages in this game over the weekend and did an arcade mode playthrough and I really enjoyed it. I might even go for all the medals! This clearly seems like the best game in the series to me, and just cements my stance of being really selective when it comes to criticisms focused on "bad controls".
There's nothing like an Expert mode in this game, right? Beyond Arcade? It's a cool game but a harder mode would be super welcome.
edit: regarding "content" vs 64, I did miss Titania on my first playthrough, so subsequent playthroughs did show me more "main" missions. I don't think it matters, though, because in the end this game is both more consistent on a stage-by-stage basis and better on a moment-to-moment basis than 64.
There's nothing like an Expert mode in this game, right? Beyond Arcade? It's a cool game but a harder mode would be super welcome.
edit: regarding "content" vs 64, I did miss Titania on my first playthrough, so subsequent playthroughs did show me more "main" missions. I don't think it matters, though, because in the end this game is both more consistent on a stage-by-stage basis and better on a moment-to-moment basis than 64.
mrmickfran
Member
This is my GOTY at the moment. Though, it might be overshadowed by another Platinum Game releasing this year.
Controls take a while to get used to, but when they work, THEY FREAKIN WORK.
Fuck Arthur Gies.
Controls take a while to get used to, but when they work, THEY FREAKIN WORK.
Fuck Arthur Gies.
Technically speaking the games hard mode is probably playing with the black arwing which deals but receives double damage. You can get it early if you scan a falco amiibo or unlock it by collecting all 70 medals.
I think the Wolf fight forces Target View in the Arwing when he uses Lightning Tornado, or at least defaults to it. What I'm not sure is whether you can disengage it in that fight. It disengages on the ground, but I can't remember if it gives you the option in the air.
SpacePirate Ridley
Member
Sorry, mean one or the other, not having to press both.
Tried to put my fingers in one of the bumpers, and its a little bit uncomfortable becuase of how the rest of your hand is postioned pressing ZR to shoot.
ooo, I thought it was just a skin. Nice, I might shoot for that.
Refreshment.01
Member
Ah, i didn't imply to press both. i meant since you mentiones R and L, i thought you like many others, were suggesting for the Barrel Rolls to work like in older Star Fox games, with R or L changing the direction. With the cuarrent set up they just need to map the action to L shoulder button.
How do you hold the Gamepad? The control it's designed so the middle fingers rest in the ZR and ZL and the index ones in the L and R shoulders. Some people that complain about the Gamepad ergonomics don't know that XD
SpacePirate Ridley
Member
Thats the problem I have, is too big for me for that to be comfortable (I can do that easily in the 360 controller for example). I tried, and I always prefered to have the index on ZR. The biggest problem is, you can press more per minute with the index than the middle fingers, so having the middle ones in ZR is a waste of valuable shooting time.
In other game I can change on the fly, becuase I dont need to constantly use both (like Splatoon for example). In star fox, I like to be barrel rolling my way out of some situtuations, at least in 64. In this game I dont do it much becuase I feel I can get away in other ways. Its useful on the cannon parts of the omega sector though to get the no hit medal.
Tell me bout it...I've been eyeing this since it exists...https://www.amazon.ca/dp/074401686X/
Just to have an extra piece of SF in my collection...INTERNET DOESN'T EXIST, NO, I NEED A GUIDE!
Refreshment.01
Member
Star Fox is designed so you press and hold briefly ZL to shoot a stream of lasers, there's no need to spam the fire button. So a timed and steady press of ZR is all that's needed for rapid fire. Check it out for yourself.
So in this sense it does not matter that the index finger can achieve more presses in less time.
WiCkEd_Co
Member
Rented the game and Wii U would not read it at all, I even tried it on a friend's Wii U with same results. Sent it back and got another copy and this time it will read the game and boot up but then will get an error that the disc could not be read.
I'm so tick as I hardly used my launch Wii U
I'm so tick as I hardly used my launch Wii U
Retro arwing as well. There's no lock on so it makes it a bit harder. It's worth it just for the old school sound effects and graphics. The other vehicles have a retro look as well.
NOLA_Gaffer
Banned
So I was watching through old Jimquisitions and I came across the Zero Difficulty episode.
Did the "Easy Mode" feature get cut from Star Fox Zero? Because I don't recall seeing it in the game.
Did the "Easy Mode" feature get cut from Star Fox Zero? Because I don't recall seeing it in the game.
it's still there. you have to get 5 game overs on phase 1 of a level (going by message board posts because I've never triggered it)
that it caused a (brief, inane) shitstorm pre-release and ended up being such a non-factor in the final game is very amusing, and very predictable.
that it caused a (brief, inane) shitstorm pre-release and ended up being such a non-factor in the final game is very amusing, and very predictable.
Finally picked this up today and have played it about an hour.
I enjoy the motion controls, but rather than focus on dual screen I tend to hit select and switch my view to the TV whenever I'm in a cinematic boss fight and am ready to start shooting.
The one complaint I have so far is that the gyrowing is iffy for me. I don't have issues with the controls so much as the entire vehicle just feels sluggish and the little hacking robot isn't great.
I enjoy the motion controls, but rather than focus on dual screen I tend to hit select and switch my view to the TV whenever I'm in a cinematic boss fight and am ready to start shooting.
The one complaint I have so far is that the gyrowing is iffy for me. I don't have issues with the controls so much as the entire vehicle just feels sluggish and the little hacking robot isn't great.
speaking of stuff that got cut, I remember an early interview where Miyamoto said there wouldn't be branching paths, but rather than replayability would come from redoing the levels with different vehicles.
obviously they dropped that concept when the game was delayed, but I wonder if the "do Zoness as the arwing" level and the Roadmaster are remnants of that concept.
another development fun fax: The pre-delay footage didn't have smart bombs, but this wasn't a case of stuff not being implemented yet. Their obmission was deliberate:
well I'm glad he changed his mind.
obviously they dropped that concept when the game was delayed, but I wonder if the "do Zoness as the arwing" level and the Roadmaster are remnants of that concept.
another development fun fax: The pre-delay footage didn't have smart bombs, but this wasn't a case of stuff not being implemented yet. Their obmission was deliberate:
well I'm glad he changed his mind.
The only point of bad controls is Aquarosa, imo. Or that one part of the bonus Wolf fight where he starts using his super attack and the game forces you into cinematic view while you're still live.
There's a portal next to Sector Gamma's symbol on the map. Does that mean there's an alternate route out of there? The Arcade Mode doesn't show another route there, but the portal means something, right?
There's a portal next to Sector Gamma's symbol on the map. Does that mean there's an alternate route out of there? The Arcade Mode doesn't show another route there, but the portal means something, right?
SpacePirate Ridley
Member
Just beat the medal score for Corneria 2.
Holy shit, 370 is not easy to get (using the normal airwing), you nearly have to play with perfection and comboing everything.
I think ive killed like the majority of the enemies of that stage, saving like 4 or 5 that you need to be not hitting enemies at the other side of the screen and also perfecting the second phase (kill more than 30 enemies before times up), killing Gigarilla fast for those last 10 points, and stil got 377 total.
Had to repeat it like 20 times, havent had much problems with any other of the score medals (Fortuna is also a little bit tricky, but more doable than this one).
You fail a big combo of enemies in the first phase (and try to rekill them while they are exploding for those golden +1), and its a failure, you need to restart. If you see you are below 200 when you arrive to the saving Peppy part, you have failed and you need to restart. Getting the blue lasers before saving Peppy helps a lot comboing during that segment.
You need 250+ at the end of phase 1, and then nail phase 2, and kill Gigarilla fast. Receiving the companion bonus also helps.
Would love to see Zallard doing a video record of that stage, to see what techniques he uses to get a much higher score.
Holy shit, 370 is not easy to get (using the normal airwing), you nearly have to play with perfection and comboing everything.
I think ive killed like the majority of the enemies of that stage, saving like 4 or 5 that you need to be not hitting enemies at the other side of the screen and also perfecting the second phase (kill more than 30 enemies before times up), killing Gigarilla fast for those last 10 points, and stil got 377 total.
Had to repeat it like 20 times, havent had much problems with any other of the score medals (Fortuna is also a little bit tricky, but more doable than this one).
You fail a big combo of enemies in the first phase (and try to rekill them while they are exploding for those golden +1), and its a failure, you need to restart. If you see you are below 200 when you arrive to the saving Peppy part, you have failed and you need to restart. Getting the blue lasers before saving Peppy helps a lot comboing during that segment.
You need 250+ at the end of phase 1, and then nail phase 2, and kill Gigarilla fast. Receiving the companion bonus also helps.
Would love to see Zallard doing a video record of that stage, to see what techniques he uses to get a much higher score.
SerTapTap
Member
Ohhhh man that final boss fight. I guess I'll spoiler it because final boss you know.
The whole game feels like that, honestly. At their very best, all the complex control crap results in a feeling...like...playing an on rails shooter. The complication is super needless. And the gamepad controls actually feel GREAT in the on-rails sections! It's baffling how this game happened. It would be great as a pure rail shooter and it still benefits from the gamepad a lot. In it's current state it's just a huge wall of confusion that, in the end, just ends up playing like Star Fox should except you have to manually do a bunch of the totally unfun stuff the rail camera is supposed to do for you.
This could have been really good. It's still got issues if the controls were worked out, but as it is I don't want to replay it, but I would gladly replay it without those issues. I have such a damn headache after that Andross boss. Sure, a couple problems were my own mistakes, but they wouldn't have even been possible without the control complexity. Yet never did I feel like I was doing extra badass things because of the controls. It purely negatively impacted my experience. That is so not cool
So the first problem was mostly my fault. I saw the blue platforms on the gamepad and tried to land on them in the walker and feel through into the tube. Without thinking much of it, I transformed back into the Arwing. Andross is completely impossibly awkward in the Arwing and the game does nothing to really indicate you should switch back to the walker. He just zoops around at max speed and it's ridiculous and you collide with him a lot. Eventually I died.
SECOND shot I noticed the game auto transfers you to walker. OH. Okay...but the walker can't strafe?! So this is really awkward! Eventually I died.
THIRD time I noticed Ohhhhhh if you lock on it DOES strafe. But locking on has been a terrible idea in almost every single fight up until now since it doesn't actually lock the reticle on. (also, I could SWEAR the first boss's reactor core auto-locks you on, I don't see why Andross doesn't)
I got pretty far, though the "leave once the hand dies" thing is really awkward and so is trying to grab the laser power up before the wave hits (you have so very little time to do both), I took a few hits from this before I learned to just say screw it and leave instantly.
All in all, at it's VERY best, that fight was a totally standard Andross fight that would have worked PERFECTLY fine on rails. Nothing that's done in that fight required the control complications that caused several deaths. I did not feel masterful when I figured out what I was doing wrong, I jsut felt like I was playing a normal on rails Andross fight in the most awkward way possible. To add insult to injury, the fleeing sequence is on rails, showing exactly how one of his Walker based attacks would work on rails.
SECOND shot I noticed the game auto transfers you to walker. OH. Okay...but the walker can't strafe?! So this is really awkward! Eventually I died.
THIRD time I noticed Ohhhhhh if you lock on it DOES strafe. But locking on has been a terrible idea in almost every single fight up until now since it doesn't actually lock the reticle on. (also, I could SWEAR the first boss's reactor core auto-locks you on, I don't see why Andross doesn't)
I got pretty far, though the "leave once the hand dies" thing is really awkward and so is trying to grab the laser power up before the wave hits (you have so very little time to do both), I took a few hits from this before I learned to just say screw it and leave instantly.
All in all, at it's VERY best, that fight was a totally standard Andross fight that would have worked PERFECTLY fine on rails. Nothing that's done in that fight required the control complications that caused several deaths. I did not feel masterful when I figured out what I was doing wrong, I jsut felt like I was playing a normal on rails Andross fight in the most awkward way possible. To add insult to injury, the fleeing sequence is on rails, showing exactly how one of his Walker based attacks would work on rails.
The whole game feels like that, honestly. At their very best, all the complex control crap results in a feeling...like...playing an on rails shooter. The complication is super needless. And the gamepad controls actually feel GREAT in the on-rails sections! It's baffling how this game happened. It would be great as a pure rail shooter and it still benefits from the gamepad a lot. In it's current state it's just a huge wall of confusion that, in the end, just ends up playing like Star Fox should except you have to manually do a bunch of the totally unfun stuff the rail camera is supposed to do for you.
This could have been really good. It's still got issues if the controls were worked out, but as it is I don't want to replay it, but I would gladly replay it without those issues. I have such a damn headache after that Andross boss. Sure, a couple problems were my own mistakes, but they wouldn't have even been possible without the control complexity. Yet never did I feel like I was doing extra badass things because of the controls. It purely negatively impacted my experience. That is so not cool
Theognosis
Member
Personally, I don't find anything remotely complex in the controls. If we're talking about complexity, nothing comes close to controlling an F-16 in Falcon 4.0 or in any combat flight simulator. Star Fox Zero controls are fine and it's a logical evolution of the series. The new scheme gives the players improved control, speed and immersion not found in previous installments.
Still, to satisfy those who find it difficult, Nintendo should release a patch with the traditional controls and call it "Amateur set-up with auto aim and no Gyro". Make the game run like Ratchet and Clank PS4 with its sluggish 30 fps, manual camera and auto aim feature (and I bet the critics will give it HIGH SCORES). Just move the aiming reticle towards the enemy and the game will do the PRECISION AIMING and killing for you with a press of a button. So convenient!
Still, to satisfy those who find it difficult, Nintendo should release a patch with the traditional controls and call it "Amateur set-up with auto aim and no Gyro". Make the game run like Ratchet and Clank PS4 with its sluggish 30 fps, manual camera and auto aim feature (and I bet the critics will give it HIGH SCORES). Just move the aiming reticle towards the enemy and the game will do the PRECISION AIMING and killing for you with a press of a button. So convenient!
There's got to be a point where "git gud" ends and "the controls have problems" begins. I played Fortuna and Sector B tonight, both of which extensively use the lock, and I still wasn't impressed. Sector B does pretty much what I mentioned before- forces a gimmicky dual screen use onto you in order to bypass the shield. I did sincerely try to use the lock while fighting Starwolf, but it was only really useful for briefly seeing where they were in relation to my ship, then letting go. The whole "holding the lock while using the gamepad" idea just sucks most of the time. The TV view is borderline useless during these kinds of battles, both for flight and for shooting.
The Fortuna boss made the lock at least somewhat helpful, mainly because it was a large enemy that didn't move around a whole lot and wouldn't get lost from view as fast. Even then, it's still extremely clumsy to pilot from a side on view, and having to dodge tornadoes in that perspective isn't particularly enjoyable. You basically have to keep checking both screens, frantically trying to interpret all of the information the game is giving you at once, just in order to do things that were simple tasks in SF64 20 years ago. I feel competent enough with the controls now to say that I'm over the learning curve and I feel like I "get" it, but they're still not much fun. In comparison, the Wii remote was a joy to use for shooters right from the first session and it was even more precise than this. All that would be lost with a remote scheme is the dual screen lock on system, which I wouldn't mind. A button could easily toggle the views as it does now.
About the walker, moving the gryo far enough will cause the camera to turn. I may have phrased it as if the gyro was maneuvering the walker itself, which it doesn't, but the gyro definitely does cause your view to turn with the cursor. It can lead to some awkward moments where the camera will be shifted far off to the right or left due to your cursor firing there, then out of instinct you may push the left stick the opposite direction to return to center and find yourself instead rotating way, way the opposite direction. It handles very unintuitively sometimes.
As if the problem with this game has anything to do with the gyro itself. Most people seem to love Splatoon's gyro controls, WWHD/TPHD/MM3D/OoT3D's gyro controls, and pretty much everything the Steam controller's gyro enables. The problem with this game is that it was designed from the ground up as a showcase for dual screen gameplay and attempts to fully utilize everything the gamepad can do, whether it really suits the gameplay or not. If it were just gyro only- no second screen stuff- no one would be complaining much. Again, just look at Splatoon.
Man, Andross kicked my ass more times than I want to admit but damn it was awesome to fight a Hard final boss in this game, still need to unlock some stages and I will unlock all the medals before moving on.
Cockpit view Man, if you use cockpit view in your TV you ALMOST don´t need the other screen, even if you do, you could change the view point to avoid stuff or check whatever you want to check with the quick press of a button.
but damn it was awesome to fight a Hard final boss in this game, still need to unlock some stages and I will unlock all the medals before moving on.Cockpit view Man, if you use cockpit view in your TV you ALMOST don´t need the other screen, even if you do, you could change the view point to avoid stuff or check whatever you want to check with the quick press of a button.
Theognosis
Member
Star Fox Zero is not Splatoon. It's an on-rails shooter not a TPS. In an on-rails shooter, your ship is almost always moving forward and its position is moving freely across the screen (unlike in Splatoon/TPS where your character's position is fixed in the middle). Lastly, the camera in an on-rails shooter will always point where you're about to travel next and that's why your aiming reticle will inevtitably move relative to the camera's change in direction.
In the walker sections, just press ZL to strafe and the controls will behave like Splatoon.
You're missing the point. Gyro aiming, simply as a method of cursor placement, is generally well liked by most people. You were phrasing it as if people couldn't handle using gyro controls and needed auto aim to do the targeting work for them because they're babies... I don't think using the gyro in itself is a problem for most people playing the game. Even a lot of the reviewers who rated the game poorly due to the controls still acknowledged that the gyro itself was more precise than a stick.
Theognosis
Member
I'm going to slam the so-called critics for influencing the minds of many people towards this game. They are a bunch of babies.
Green Mamba
Member
Oh please, let's not start this. I like this game and all but the critics are entirely entitled to their opinions.
Spring-Loaded
Member
https://miiverse.nintendo.net/posts/AYMHAAACAAADVHlIyd32bg
*shudders*
On top of everything else stacked against this game, re-reading stuff like this is unsettling
No bombs, no branching paths, no multiplayer ... that was the mindset this game's development started out with. It's a miracle the game is as good as it is.
I'm upset by the game's lukewarm critical reception too
p.s. you have no grounds to call anyone else babies
Of course, but if all of their opinions suck they gotta get called out.
This control setup is a masterpiece in design. There is a logical and compelling reason for every decision.
The series hit a wall: the courses had to be designed so that the movement of the ship coordinated with the location of the enemies, limiting each run to a tight tunnel. This is solved by allowing the gun to aim independently, but this creates a new problem: it's hard to tell where you're aiming. Putiing it in first person gives you great aim, but you loose out on the dodging and dogfighting gamplay. So, why not both?
Which gets us to the contentious part: why can't It just have a 'change view' button like a racing game? The graphics can be better and you don't have to learn anything new. Make the same game, just with a few more button presses here and there.
Here's where Miyamoto wins. The button is there and we don't use it that way. We may prefer to have a certain view on the tv or the gamepad, but we still glance back and forth.
That's because it's less disorienting, more natural, more fun; whatever it is you do it becuase it's better that way.
Spring-Loaded
Member
The "switch views" button is furthest away from the default right thumb position. If that were mapped to the right thumbstick, it would negate the need for simultaneous dual screen outside of co-op. WE don't use it because it's the most inconvenient button to hit in the heat of the moment — the aim reset is convenient and we use it all the time. There could be a graphics mode that's better in single player and lower resolution in co-op, but they opted for both at once.
And there are a couple reviews that try to assert the controls are broken — that's not true, but you have to be sipping the kool aid/on a kool aid IV drip to not see how myriad aspects of the controls are confusing/unintuitive for some people. And there's no good reason there isn't a non-dual screen and/or non-motion control option (let alone other control configurations). Plenty of people getting insanely defensive about this game and writing off any/all complaints is as harmful, but in a different way.
Gotta fight fire with fire, they started it. Although I hope my tone was as cool as I am.
The button is small and far, but just for the sake of arguement, try using it for a bit. In my experience, it's not that fun. Which would make the whole two view gameplay DOA, which would prevent us from also getting probably the most compelling two player experience in a decade.
You can say they are not worth learning, but only after you learn them. Until then, you can say that it wasn't fun trying to learn them.
I've been enjoying the discussion on the divisive controls. It's a good exercise in discussing game design.
It's also a discussion of diminishing returns. Some people are just slower learners than others. I was really slow to learn tank controls in old-school RE, for example — they only clicked for me this year after trying on/off for a decade. I'm glad I didn't dismiss them, though, because now that I understand them and love them, RE2 and RE3 are among my favorite games ever.
Stuff that is new to someone, stuff that isn't standardized, will affect different people in different ways. For some it'll be more of a struggle, for others it will be transcendent joy. And that's OK.
It presents an interesting design puzzle that myself, Spring-Loaded and others have tried to solve: What, if anything, could be added by way of options to make it easier for those who struggle, without fundamentally undoing everything this unique setup enables. Clearly there are no easy answers, but it's fun to think about.
I still think the laser sight in vehicle view might have some merit. Like I said earlier, it's entirely possible they may patch in extra options. They did it for Pikmin 3, after all, and that's another Miyamoto brainchild.
It's also a discussion of diminishing returns. Some people are just slower learners than others. I was really slow to learn tank controls in old-school RE, for example — they only clicked for me this year after trying on/off for a decade. I'm glad I didn't dismiss them, though, because now that I understand them and love them, RE2 and RE3 are among my favorite games ever.
Stuff that is new to someone, stuff that isn't standardized, will affect different people in different ways. For some it'll be more of a struggle, for others it will be transcendent joy. And that's OK.
It presents an interesting design puzzle that myself, Spring-Loaded and others have tried to solve: What, if anything, could be added by way of options to make it easier for those who struggle, without fundamentally undoing everything this unique setup enables. Clearly there are no easy answers, but it's fun to think about.
I still think the laser sight in vehicle view might have some merit. Like I said earlier, it's entirely possible they may patch in extra options. They did it for Pikmin 3, after all, and that's another Miyamoto brainchild.
I don't think any of this is true. Sin and Punishment 2 played beautifully with separate aiming and flight controls. If anything, Starfox Zero has worse targeting on the TV screen due to the gamepad emphasis giving the TV reticle allowance to be less accurate than ever (especially for distant targets), forcing you to divide your attention between two screens in order to aim effectively. Not to mention again that the gyro is slower and less reliable than IR aiming. I don't see any way that Starfox Zero wins over what S&P2 did with the remote... Sure, first person is ideal for shooting, but the better speed and precision of the IR cursor and the locked focus on one screen more than make up for that. You could cover the entire screen with laser fire in a second with a few twitches of the wrist; good luck doing that with a gyro.
S&P2 is also a great indication of what you can do with level designs in a modern "rail shooter" type of game... the levels in that game twist and contort in so many directions and seamlessly switch between wide open spaces tightly packed obstacle courses. They hardly felt limited to tunnel shapes... they were gigantic, and the camera took you all over through their space.
https://youtu.be/0yIHhGA9HpI?t=6m13s
Starfox Zero's control scheme didn't change the "tunnel" form of the levels, anyway. Most of them are still that same general, linear shape as SF64. Outside of a few boss battles designed for lock on, it's still a rail shooter. And even in SF64 you had plenty of all range mode segments that weren't limited to a rail.... I guess what I'm arguing is that there's nothing about these controls that breaks the rail shooter "tunnel" feel you're talking about, nor are controls like these required to do so.
I find gyro just as quick and accurate to control with slight twitches of the wrist as I would IR, for both close and distant targets, with the added benefit of not having to pass up targets like the two turrets at the start of that S&P2 video (which btw, isn't anything impressive re: the rotating background and how it affects gameplay — it may as well be a skybox or rendered video backdrop).