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Pokémon Sun and Moon Starters Revealed. Releases November 18th 2016.

Sub-Zero at a Starbucks said:
I know it's been covered to death already, but the Fairy bump in Gen VI basically felt like the hypothetical (but more or less omnipresent in the community) Light-type that's been discussed for years, just done right.
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Every aspect of a prospective Light type has basically been done already
  • The literal 'Light" aspect has been taken by Fire and Electricity
  • The goodness aspect associated with Light is taken by the virtuous nature of the fighting type
  • And now most recently the magical aspect has been taken by Fairy

There's really no more reason for a Light type
 
Since everyone has done a list of what starters for each generation, I'll do the same:

Gen 1: Pikachu/Bulbasaur (Yellow Version/FireRed)
Gen 2: Chikorita (Gold/HeartGold)
Gen 3: Treecko (Omega Ruby)
Gen 4: Turtwig/Piplup (Pearl)
Gen 5: Snivy/Oshawott (Black/Black2)
Gen 6: Froakie (X)
Gen 7: Undecided

I've always been partial to Grass-type Pokemon, so the grass starters have always been my go-to Pocket Monster to give me an additional challenge throughout my journey. It wasn't until playing Diamond/Pearl that I decided to switch it up with the Water-Type starters, and I've been switching back and forth between the two. Outside from Torchic, I otherwise hate using the Fire-Starters, as most of them never appeal to me. (Charmander is a Lizard...That's on FIRE! Chimchar is a monkey...That's on FIRE! etc.)

I still remain undecided with the Generation VII starters, as all of them look cute/cool.
 
GoldStarz said:
Every aspect of a prospective Light type has basically been done already
  • The literal 'Light" aspect has been taken by Fire and Electricity
  • The goodness aspect associated with Light is taken by the virtuous nature of the fighting type
  • And now most recently the magical aspect has been taken by Fairy

There's really no more reason for a Light type
Click to expand...


That and the fact that we already 18 different types which is already more than enough for an RPG. In the future I want to see revisions of the type chart rather than just slapping more stuff on.
 
Brawly Likes to Brawl said:
That and the fact that we already 18 different types which is already more than enough for an RPG. In the future I want to see revisions of the type chart rather than just slapping more stuff on.
Click to expand...

I made a chart a long time ago that revolved around merging Rock and Ground into a singular Earth and introducing Sound as a type to clear up some of the clutter in Normal and Electric, as well as balancing the types a bit more (esp. Ice defensively):

4LbGtm4.png
Click to expand...
 
Sub-Zero at a Starbucks said:
I made a chart a long time ago that revolved around merging Rock and Ground into a singular Earth and introducing Sound as a type to clear up some of the clutter in Normal and Electric, as well as balancing the types a bit more (esp. Ice defensively):
Click to expand...

All hail the mighty Helix, immune to electricity because "why not".

Edit: Really, I'd hate for Ground and Rock to be merged. It'd cause some weird shit due to how things have been set up until now.

Not even touching the weird shit that happens with the Rock and Flying relationship x.x
 
Pokemon starter list:

Gen 1: Pikachu/Charmander
Gen 2-current: Fire starter


It' simple guys.


Also any chance I'll be able to score a cheap 3DS around the time of release?
 
Seil said:
All hail the mighty Helix, immune to electricity because "why not".

Edit: Really, I'd hate for Ground and Rock to be merged. It'd cause some weird shit due to how things have been set up until now.

Not even touching the weird shit that happens with the Rock and Flying relationship x.x
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What "relationship"? It's literally a binary set of outcomes that occasionally gets mixed in with additional binary sets of outcomes. They're clearly willing to shake things up considering Steel and Dark were introduced in the second generation and even more recently we had Fairy to help balance things - nothing about the current (or past) type charts are so inherently sacred that they're above being fine-tuned. I mean hell, I even have one or two of the original type relationships from Gen 1 in my modified type chart and I hate Gen 1.
 
Darryl M R said:
Pokemon starter list:

Gen 1: Pikachu/Charmander
Gen 2-current: Fire starter


It' simple guys.


Also any chance I'll be able to score a cheap 3DS around the time of release?
Click to expand...

2ds is now $79 in the states and could probably be had for cheaper during black friday (probably even $59.99). If i were to get a 3ds console now I'd get 2ds.

I'm not jumping on sun or moon till I find that drastic improvements have been made and it has a post game.
 
Exclusive legendaries?

Or can we get both like G/S?

I didn't mind that honestly, box legend at 40, Opposite legend at 70.

It sucks having to play through twice, buy 2 games, or having to trade something good to get the opposite box legend.
 
cntr said:
Sound is a separate property of attacks now, like contact. It'd cause some weird things if it was a type.
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You could just have Sound be the type and then have "sonic" be the attribute, just like how most Fighting-type moves involve physical combat but all of them don't necessarily make contact. There are existing setups that already work like that, considering the "powder" attribute is almost entirely exclusive to Grass-type attacks to begin with.
 
Sub-Zero at a Starbucks said:
I made a chart a long time ago that revolved around merging Rock and Ground into a singular Earth and introducing Sound as a type to clear up some of the clutter in Normal and Electric, as well as balancing the types a bit more (esp. Ice defensively):
Click to expand...

You made a type that was super effective against another into one that does 0x damage to them, I shouldn't have to go any further as to why your 'Earth' type simply does not work.
 
I don't really like any of the starters at first sight, but I know I will. Hopefully the evolutionary lines are better.
 
Favorite starters, base stage:

Gen I: Charmander (Squirtle basically tied, but I actually like all three)
Gen II: Totodile (shame what happens to it... Cyndaquil super close second)
Gen III: Torchic (not a big fan of any of their base forms, though)
Gen IV: Piplup
Gen V: Tepig
Gen VI: Fennekin (Froakie super close, Chespin is okay)
Gen VII: Litten (Rowlet has grown on me, and Popplio is slowly making me hate it less, but mostly out of pity)

Fully evolved:

Gen I: Charizard
Gen II: Typhlosion
Gen III: Swampert (but I hate the Mega. Blaziken wins in Megas)
Gen IV: Infernape (Probably favorite fire starter design)
Gen V: Emboar (I liked Serperior's design at first, but it's Serperior x.x Dewott > Samurott)
Gen VI: Greninja (WHY DID THEY DO THAT TO FENNEKIN?!)
 
GoldStarz said:
You made a type that was super effective against another into one that does 0x damage to them, I shouldn't have to go any further as to why your 'Earth' type simply does not work.
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Man, I really envy the metagame you play in where abilities like Levitate or Mold Breaker never happened, or types like Fairy don't exist. Remember when Normal-types got roflstomped by Haxoruses running Fighting-type moves, only for the Fairy bump switching said Normal-types over to Fairy, resulting in Haxorus tending to run Poison Jab instead? I sure don't, it's not like the metagame has constantly evolved over the years according to newly-introduced principles or anything.
 
Sub-Zero at a Starbucks said:
Man, I really envy the metagame you play in where abilities like Levitate or Mold Breaker never happened, or types like Fairy don't exist. Remember when Normal-types got roflstomped by Haxoruses running Fighting-type moves, only for the Fairy bump switching said Normal-types over to Fairy, resulting in Haxorus tending to run Poison Jab instead? I sure don't, it's not like the metagame has constantly evolved over the years according to newly-introduced principles or anything.
Click to expand...

Levitate means giving up other possible abilities for the advantage over Ground.

Your chart gives Flying a huge buff by taking away one of its/its biggest weakness in the form of Rock.

It also gives all Rock types immunity to Electric, which is stupid. Especially with Fossil Water Pokemon that are basically just Rock because of the Fossil status.

There's shaking things up and there's completely destroying relationships that already work lol. Merging two types has a significantly larger effect than switching a couple type advantages/reistances or even adding a new type.

Edit: It also removes the 4x weakness to Water and Grass from Rock/Ground Pokemon since they'd just be Earth now.
 
Seil said:
Levitate means giving up other possible abilities for the advantage over Ground.

Your chart gives Flying a huge buff by taking away one of its/its biggest weakness in the form of Rock.

It also gives all Rock types immunity to Electric, which is stupid. Especially with Fossil Water Pokemon that are basically just Rock because of the Fossil status.

There's shaking things up and there's completely destroying relationships that already work lol. Merging two types has a significantly larger effect than switching a couple type advantages/reistances or even adding a new type.

Edit: It also removes the 4x weakness to Water and Grass from Rock/Ground Pokemon since they'd just be Earth now.
Click to expand...

Those changes were intentionally made with funnelling the offensive / defensive capabilities of certain types into others. The changes would make Ice drastically more sought-after on both offensive and defensive levels because it would be one of few strengths against Flying, while Electric would similarly be a hot-button offensive counter to Flying as a means of balancing its increased futility against Earth. It also remains one of the few types that's effective against Water, which is very, very important.

It's also designed to slightly reduce the juggernaut that is Water's defensive type-matchup makeup in favor of slightly buffing Grass' offensive utility, considering Grass is by-and-large a reverse-Ice in that it has a lot of Pokemon that could potentially destroy as attackers but have to mainly stay on defense with a shitty set of resistances because other types can handle its coverage more efficiently. Ice, on the other hand, has a ton of defensively-oriented Pokemon but Ice is an awful defensive type, which this seeks to reconcile.
 
Sub-Zero at a Starbucks said:
Those changes were intentionally made with funnelling the offensive / defensive capabilities of certain types into others. The changes would make Ice drastically more sought-after on both offensive and defensive levels because it would be one of few strengths against Flying, while Electric would similarly be a hot-button offensive counter to Flying as a means of balancing its increased futility against Earth. It also remains one of the few types that's effective against Water, which is very, very important.

It's also designed to slightly reduce the juggernaut that is Water's defensive type-matchup makeup in favor of slightly buffing Grass' offensive utility, considering Grass is by-and-large a reverse-Ice in that it has a lot of Pokemon that could potentially destroy as attackers but have to mainly stay on defense with a shitty set of resistances because other types can handle its coverage more efficiently. Ice, on the other hand, has a ton of defensively-oriented Pokemon but Ice is an awful defensive type, which this seeks to reconcile.
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That's all fine and dandy, if we were starting from a clean slate. But we wouldn't be in this scenario. This change, in the 721 Pokemon world, where all this has been established already, would be massive and imo a rather shitty experience.

There are some problems with the current balance, yeah, but this change would make and break way too many existing Pokemon. And I'm not even gonna try analyzing what effects it could have on actual moves/movepools x.x

The addition of the Fairy Type changed a whole 22 Pokemon. 9 of which are fully evolved. Then there's the four Megas.

The merging of Rock and Ground would affect over 100 Pokemon. It's on a completely different scale, both in terms of the effects it has on the overall type chart and how many Pokemon it directly affects.
 
Seil said:
That's all fine and dandy, if we were starting from a clean slate. But we wouldn't be in this scenario. This change, in the 721 Pokemon world, where all this has been established already, would be massive and imo a rather shitty experience.

There are some problems with the current balance, yeah, but this change would make and break way too many existing Pokemon. And I'm not even gonna try analyzing what effects it could have on actual moves/movepools x.x

The addition of the Fairy Type changed a whole 22 Pokemon. 9 of which are fully evolved. Then there's the four Megas.

The merging of Rock and Ground would affect over 100 Pokemon. It's on a completely different scale, both in terms of the effects it has on the overall type chart and how many Pokemon it directly affects.
Click to expand...

The addition of types and Megas affected every Pokemon. Virtually any stone you cast into the metagame at this point is going to have changes on both fundamental and incremental levels, big and small. It's not like the Fairy type is limited to those 22 Pokemon when it comes to moves, abilities, items, weaknesses, resistances, etc. Something like that changes the face of the entire game.

EDIT: I mean hell, if we're talking big things in small packages, just look at something like Life Orb in Gen 4 or Assault Vest in Gen VI. Those alone probably brought about more changes than the Dark and Steel bump altogether.
 
Sub-Zero at a Starbucks said:
Man, I really envy the metagame you play in where abilities like Levitate or Mold Breaker never happened, or types like Fairy don't exist. Remember when Normal-types got roflstomped by Haxoruses running Fighting-type moves, only for the Fairy bump switching said Normal-types over to Fairy, resulting in Haxorus tending to run Poison Jab instead? I sure don't, it's not like the metagame has constantly evolved over the years according to newly-introduced principles or anything.
Click to expand...

Attacking
2x
  • [[Poison]]
  • <Fire>
  • [[Electric]]
  • /Sound/
.5x
  • [[Bug]]
  • [[Grass]]
  • Ice
0x
  • [[Flying]]

Defending
.5x
  • |Normal|
  • |Flying|
  • <Poison>
  • |Fire|
2x
  • <Water>
  • <Grass>
  • [[Ice]]
0x
  • [[Electric]]

See here's the problem. You're not really combining types. The only thing that actually belongs to rock are the added resistances, which do belong to Rock type, which honestly just makes it look more like a buff to Ground types at the price to Rock types

Basically you're buffing Ground (and indirectly Flying), two types that really don't really need buffs.

Also like someone said, Sound is like Contact, it's just a property of attack.
 
I didn't really play Pokemon beyond Red but this designs are awful. The legendaries are also a step down from what I saw X/Y box art :P.
 
Sub-Zero at a Starbucks said:
The addition of types and Megas affected every Pokemon. Virtually any stone you cast into the metagame at this point is going to have changes on both fundamental and incremental levels, big and small. It's not like the Fairy type is limited to those 22 Pokemon when it comes to moves, abilities, items, weaknesses, resistances, etc. Something like that changes the face of the entire game.
Click to expand...

Yes, you're correct, and that's why making a change that DIRECTLY CHANGES FIVE TIMES as many Pokemon as Fairy did, does away with an entire type, merging all their moves and whatnot, would have a ridiculous impact on things.

The comparison of type changes was to show just how big a gap there is, without going into those details. Because I'm not looking to write a thesis on the subject lol.

If you're just looking at the game as a type chart, sure, you can make these changes.

But the game is much bigger than its type chart, the other things that rely on the type chart have to be taken into account too. That includes all these Rock and Ground Type moves that would become Earth. It includes all the Pokemon of Types that have their matchups changed. All the Pokemon that have their type changed. These Rock Types that weren't designed with having the inability to hit Flying types with STAB super effectiveness, and that weren't designed to be immune to Electric. Etc etc. Your type chart is breaking and putting back together the game, not just tweaking it.

It's a fine type chart, when it's not being retroactively applied to what we have right now.
 
Seil said:
Yes, you're correct, and that's why making a change that DIRECTLY CHANGES FIVE TIMES as many Pokemon as Fairy did, does away with an entire type, merging all their moves and whatnot, would have a ridiculous impact on things.

The comparison of type changes was to show just how big a gap there is, without going into those details. Because I'm not looking to write a thesis on the subject lol.

If you're just looking at the game as a type chart, sure, you can make these changes.

But the game is much bigger than its type chart, the other things that rely on the type chart have to be taken into account too. That includes all these Rock and Ground Type moves that would become Earth. It includes all the Pokemon of Types that have their matchups changed. All the Pokemon that have their type changed. These Rock Types that weren't designed with having the inability to hit Flying types with STAB super effectiveness, and that weren't designed to be immune to Electric. Etc etc. Your type chart is breaking and putting back together the game, not just tweaking it.

It's a fine type chart, when it's not being retroactively applied to what we have right now.
Click to expand...

Why is impact a bad thing? Everyone that actually enjoys Pokemon ITT is actively arguing that Pokemon is good because it's not the same game every gen.
 
MiTYH said:
I trust nothing after the black/white legend switch
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But the ones you got were on the covers. It would be a whole new level of crazy if the one on the cover wasn't what you got =p

Sub-Zero at a Starbucks said:
Why is impact a bad thing? Everyone that actually enjoys Pokemon ITT is actively arguing that Pokemon is good because it's not the same game every gen.
Click to expand...

Because this is 100+ Pokemon that were not designed with this kind of idea in mind, plus all the Flying, Electric and so on that are also hugely affected.

Most people that love the series don't want the entire foundation broken down and rebuilt. Nor do they want the Pokemon we have now to change that drastically.

Like, really, back to my first point, why is an Aquatic Pokemon that's Rock just because it's a Fossil going to suddenly become immune to Electric? x.x
 
Pokemon that should get megas in SM:

Flygon ;;
Chandelure
Tauros
Marowak
Raichu
Arcanine
Ninetales
Weavile
Gliscor
Zoroak
Excadrill
Pangoro
Hawlucha
Dragonite
 
Seil said:
But the ones you got were on the covers. It would be a whole new level of crazy if the one on the cover wasn't what you got =p



Because this is 100+ Pokemon that were not designed with this kind of idea in mind, plus all the Flying, Electric and so on that are also hugely affected.

Most people that love the series don't want the entire foundation broken down and rebuilt. Nor do they want the Pokemon we have now to change that drastically.

Like, really, back to my first point, why is an Aquatic Pokemon that's Rock just because it's a Fossil going to suddenly become immune to Electric? x.x
Click to expand...

The same magic they use to revive the Fossils gives them an inherent immunity to attacks that use electrical energy. Something something prehistoric pyroclastic explosions and lightning dominating the landscape (emphasized further thanks to elemental legendaries) gave them natural resistances, increased oxygen levels resulted in more prominent electrical neural activity, etc. etc. A wizard did it.

I seriously doubt all 386 Pokemon were ready for an addition of 100+ more Pokemon and the Physical / Special / Supplementary split either, but I'm pretty sure the games still sold fine after that point.
 
So "Litten" is "lit" + "kitten," but what about "Rowlet" and "Popplio?"

I guess "Popplio" is "pop" (as in a bubble) and "leo" (reference to sea lion)?

And "Rowlet" is "owlet" plus... ???
 
Neiteio said:
So "Litten" is "lit" + "kitten," but what about "Rowlet" and "Popplio?"

I guess "Popplio" is "pop" (as in a bubble) and "leo" (reference to sea lion)?

And "Rowlet" is "owlet" plus... ???
Click to expand...
Rowlet
Round + Owlet
Row (as in noise or uproar) + Owlet (maybe it'll have some sound attacks?)
 
Garuroh said:
Pokemon that should get megas in SM:

Flygon ;;
Chandelure
Tauros
Marowak
Raichu
Arcanine
Ninetales
Weavile
Gliscor
Zoroak
Excadrill
Pangoro
Hawlucha
Dragonite
Click to expand...
I know that they aren't counted as the same thing but out of your list I don't think Raichu,Zoroak, and Marowak will ever get Mega Evolutions simply because those Pokémon have a BREAK Evolution in the Pokémon Trading Card Game.

For those of you out of the loop BREAK Evolutions in the Trading Card Game are basically a 3rd Evolution a Pokémon similar to Mega Evolutions but they were made to give non Mega Evolution Pokémon a better fighting chance against Mega Evolution Pokémon and Pokémon EX Cards.

Every BREAK Card released so far has only applied to Pokémon who don't have a Mega Evolution.
 
Xion_Stellar said:
I know that they aren't counted as the same thing but out of your list I don't think Raichu,Zoroak, and Marowak will ever get Mega Evolutions simply because those Pokémon have a BREAK Evolution in the Pokémon Trading Card Game.

For those of you out of the loop BREAK Evolutions in the Trading Card Game are basically a 3rd Evolution a Pokémon similar to Mega Evolutions but they were made to give non Mega Evolution Pokémon a better fighting chance against Mega Evolution Pokémon and Pokémon EX Cards.

Every BREAK Card released so far has only applied to Pokémon who don't have a Mega Evolution.
Click to expand...

Yeah I don't really think the game makers take the TCG into effect when making the games...
 
Sub-Zero at a Starbucks said:
The same magic they use to revive the Fossils gives them an inherent immunity to attacks that use electrical energy. Something something prehistoric pyroclastic explosions and lightning dominating the landscape (emphasized further thanks to elemental legendaries) gave them natural resistances, increased oxygen levels resulted in more prominent electrical neural activity, etc. etc. A wizard did it.

I seriously doubt all 386 Pokemon were ready for an addition of 100+ more Pokemon and the Physical / Special / Supplementary split either, but I'm pretty sure the games still sold fine after that point.
Click to expand...

The Phys-Special split didn't completely change how types were affected, it just made it so that damage type was decided by the move itself and not by the type. Completely different from removing a type
 
GoldStarz said:
Every aspect of a prospective Light type has basically been done already
  • The literal 'Light" aspect has been taken by Fire and Electricity
  • The goodness aspect associated with Light is taken by the virtuous nature of the fighting type
  • And now most recently the magical aspect has been taken by Fairy

There's really no more reason for a Light type
Click to expand...
I agree completely.

Light type just doesn't make sense anymore.

Solgaleo Could be a Fire/Electric type for all we know so he can embody both aspects of Light.
 
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