Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
Yeah, Media Create has it pegged at 85k for its launch week.
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Western Localisation Of Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE Features Costume And Age Changes
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Yeah, Media Create has it pegged at 85k for its launch week.
Nowhere even close to this one. No one who has played Persona 3 and 4 could say that they are even remotely close in anime level compared to TMS. Presentation is wildly different.
When we've got a significant number of Persona fans who have themselves balked at #FE when its first trailer was shown on April 1, 2015 (both in Japan AND in the West)... yes.
A game i recently completed, Stella Glow (great game btw), is in a similar category to these types of games, niche and likely to turn away anyone who finds "anime" games weird. It has everything this game has had removed so far, panty shots, fairly underaged girls, boobs and lots of fanservice beyond your wildest imagination. Yes, it's localized by Atlus, not Nintendo, but by your logic it should have had all of what i listed above removed because it can be played on a Nintendo 3ds, a family friendly console.
Parents and the like would not let they're kids buy these kinds of games if they don't want their kids exposed to the themes found in niche japanese, fanservice filled games. TMS #FE isn't going to be bought by kids or younger teens who are probably supervised by their parents/guardians, the game wasn't made with that audience in mind. So why censor it, i still fail to see any logic behind it, and probably never will because NOA is horrendously terrible with communicating with their consumers.
Yeah, it's a much easier sale to mainstream audiences due to the open world focus and having a largely more palatable artistic direction, on top of being vetted by the excellent reception of its predecessor .
See, I can refrain from face jokes!
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
Atlus USA is a tiny company with minimal overhead. They can make a living off of niche games that sell 25k or less. Nintendo of America can't. The logistics are completely different.
In previous threads, everyone who dismissed this as an otaku-oriented idol-focused game was told they were being judgmental and that it wasn't actually about idols (even Ryouga said this! (also somehow this character is not an idol)) and that general RPG players would all definitely enjoy it.
So this about-face that of course this game targeted an incredibly niche audience and there should be no attempt at wider appeal is ... interesting.
Anyways, most RPGs actually sell better in the West than in Japan so there's little chance that combined European and American sales won't be able to beat the kind of spectacular bomb performance this game had in Japan.
So this about-face that of course this game targeted an incredibly niche audience and there should be no attempt at wider appeal is ... interesting.
Anyways, most RPGs actually sell better in the West than in Japan so there's little chance that combined European and American sales won't be able to beat the kind of spectacular bomb performance this game had in Japan.
Fair point.
Maybe it's that Stella Glow is one amongst loads of 3DS RPGs, is a solely third-party game from a now-defunct team and didn't have much in the way of promotion/advertising. As one of the handful of WiiU games releasing this year, FE has ended up being shown all over the place including in Nintendo Direct, and so it's much more visable. Plus Fire Emblem itself is a Nintendo brand that is increasing in value at the moment, maybe that makes them nervous about FE damaging it. (Lol, if it can survive Nowi, I don't see how!
)That's just off the top of my head, happy to concede the point.
(As an aside, I'm looking forward to playing SG later this year).
Are the same people who said the former the ones saying the latter? Because there were definitely people like me who knew from the outset that this game's audience would be real limited after it was re-revealed as #FE.
I remember some people saying that the content in #FE was too innocuous to be changed in localization by Nintendo Treehouse, and a bunch of people argued against me when I expressed skepticism at that idea.
Every point from that 4chan leak turned out to be correct; wonder what kind of insider posted it.
For what we're discussing, idols and Japanese entertainment industry are indistinguishable. Do you think anybody outside of a limited demographic is going to care about the seperation of the two?
The point is that the main aspect of the game is going to inherently appeal to a very small subset of people. That doesn't mean others can't enjoy it but let's be real.
kunonabi
Member
Western influences are much stronger in Xenoblade though. It's also an infinitely more mainstream premise and isn't too far removed from something like Robotech, etc. Tokyo Mirage Sessions is far and away more Japanese and Otaku-baity than Xenoblade was ever going to be. It's also a sequel serving its built in audience. TMS wasn't even able to leverage the SMT or FE fanbases in Japan due to how different it is. Trying to seriously compare the two is laughable.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
They are indeed incredibly "animu" games with a more niche appeal.
Which means that something like #FE is only even more niche.
Hello, that was me.
You don't have to tell me! Just wondering where all those folks arguing the opposite went.
dakkumauji
Member
this whole protect the pristine image of fire emblem is a silly point considering they are not marketing this as a fire emblem game whatsoever
it's not in the title or on the box itself
if the FE in #FE of course means fire emblem to you, then you probably already know about this game and not coming across it in a gamestop
you'll have to actually look up the summary to even see it was related to fire emblem
it's in the videos, but once again, not something people will regularly come across
it's not in the title or on the box itself
if the FE in #FE of course means fire emblem to you, then you probably already know about this game and not coming across it in a gamestop
you'll have to actually look up the summary to even see it was related to fire emblem
it's in the videos, but once again, not something people will regularly come across
SolidSnakex
Member
Yeah, Takahashi was quite open about how they were chasing western RPG's with this game, and especially Bethesda RPG's. And it shows. I think that's part of the reason why the reception for XBX is nowhere near as glowing as Chronicles.
Actually, one of the big changes in how this game is being marketed from Japan to the West is that they ARE putting an emphasis on the "Fire Emblem" in their media. Look at the "First Beats" trailer: at the beginning and end of it, they show "Tokyo Mirage Sessions: Fire Emblem," which then proceeds to contract to "#FE."
Ah, never mind, you were taking that into account. Yeah, the "Fire Emblem" aspect of the game is still abstracted; the large audience for that series didn't save it in Japan, and it's not going to in the West either.
J
Jotamide
Unconfirmed Member
Is NoA going for an E rating here? Do we have confirmation from the ESRB? Imagine if it turns out M-rated after this whole shitfest.
Considering that it was originally introduced to the press as a Fire Emblem x SMT game and it's Fire Emblem nods get mentioned in every review, I don't think it's as far removed as that.
But sure, I think Nintendo are far more worried about a general PR shitstorm centreing on them rather than Fire Emblem itself.
It's rated ESRB T.
M rating didnt protect Fatal Frame, the changes made for this game are obviously not being made with the ESRB ratings in mind.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
It's rated T on its product page. On mobile or would link it.
Regardless, given most Neptunia/Omega Quintet (the latter got a D 17+ in Japan too) kind of games get T and this is nothing like that....whoever decided it would likely get an M uncensored was full of shit, period.
dakkumauji
Member
yeah, that's what i meant
it's not full and center, just hidden away
i mean if you want to capture the large audience they think exists for a wiiu jrpg (lol), you could be promoting the whole atlus and fire emblem angle instead of just hiding it away in videos and blocks of text that people would actively have to search for
yes, it was introduced as FE x SMT
in 2013
but i'm not talking about what people interested in following gaming news, but the supposed general public that all these changes are for
they probably won't remember about a FE x SMT or connect that its this game
and honestly, i don't remember NoA getting extreme negative press over Bayo2 or her in Smash
considering this is way less damning in the first looks than Bayo2, it seems unfounded worries
That's what I don't get- Fire Emblem and SMT have their own fanbases built up around the respective RPGs (with presumably some crossover) over decades, and they decided to do something that appealed to neither. Seems like it drifted a lot from any original plan, and the end result seems more like it should be its own thing (or maybe even closer to Persona) rather than squeezing in references to both series.
I am still counting on the day that the whole concept will finally click with people that weren't as high on it and I'll be all to happy to welcome them to the fold. It's pretty much the equivalent of what SMT:N was for me during the PS2/GCN/XB era.
discoalucard
i am a butthurt babby that can only drool in wonder at shiney objects
This isn't about parents and kids though, it's about appealing to a wider audience. Anime and modern JRPG fans either like or have accepted the level of fan service in products like these, but to everyone else - adults, even! - it's seen as really juvenile and pandering. Wanting to scrub that clean to make a more widely palatable product makes a lot of sense.
I mean, it still might be the wrong move for this game - I do think it's a reasonable argument to make that the mainstream will never find this game approachable no matter what they do. Nintendo would really need to market this game widely in order for it to be worthwhile.
For #FE? Seems optimistic. Using anecodtal evidence anyway: I haven't really seen any Fire Emblem fans really excited for the game. Most people I know that generally buy anime/jrpg type games don't seem particularly enthused for the game. Then, of course, there's the obvious fact it's on the Wii U when most fans of this type of game tend to be more on portables, sony machines, or even PC these days.
And yeah. This is what I've figured from the start by saying it seems like it's mostly just being pushed out the door. The changes are more about not getting their company image ruined by some game they didn't even want to release over here anyway.
Fair enough
I replied to that point earlier- sorry for quoting myself
I think they are being overly paranoid, but are looking at the potential gain/losses from selling a few more copies vs very slim chance of the media whipping it up into a scandal just as they unveil the NX.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
Given how inherently niche this game is removing this sort of stuff is totally pointless. Even though it was extreme there as well, I can at least see why Fates had stuff removed for a younger Western audience. The motivation isn't really here this time around, and pre-emptively saying it's Atlus' call makes it seem like Nintendo of America was doing damage control ahead of time due to recent events instead addressing complaints head on.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
And for such an insignificant release.
Eh. They didn't actually say Atlus was in charge of those decisions as much as they were just doing the localization. In the same statement, they also mentioned changes would be made due to various requirements, so it certainly was a way to try and do some form of damage control ahead of time though.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
You don't have to post if you don't care. In fact, it's explicitly discouraged.
Who says I don't care?
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Because you just sound like one of the people moaning this isn't Fire Emblem with SMT sprites, which this thread isn't about. It's about the censorship to the game they actually made.
No, I think it should've been SMT with Fire Emblem sprites, which it baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarely is. Well, actually I would've preferred a straight up crossover of some kind, but what I just described likely would've been the most marketable product, and they just fucked that up.
That actually factors into my opinion on this subject, which I'm pretty sure I stated earlier in this very thread as being that changing the game content in the way they appear to be doing AT THIS POINT is a dumb move. But I think I agree with what Robert is speculating as to why they would be doing so. It's just... There'd be no reason to do that if they had actually bothered making a game that had actually tried to draw on both IP's fanbases and beyond. Instead, they targeted a different niche that is actually narrower than both and not in line with the company's image in the first place, and I think calling them out on that is valid when we're discussing the potential profitability of this title.
The point is that if Nintendo doesn't want to have the image of being a publisher of waifu games, maybe they shouldn't make goddamn waifu games instead of doing it and then trying to cover their tracks
SolidSnakex
Member
The point is that if Nintendo doesn't want to have the image of being a publisher of waifu games, maybe they shouldn't make goddamn waifu games instead of doing it and then trying to cover their tracks
But Nintendo of Japan are completely okay with those games. It's the western branch that freaks out over them. Which is something the western branch has always tried to do. Whether it be removing religious symbols from games or removing blood and gore in MK. They've tried to to walk this fine line between a family friendly image and something that's not. But what for? Why is Nintendo of America so interested in having a different image in comparison to Japan? It's not as if NoJ has any issues attracting children to their products.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
The "they" you keep referring to aren't the same entities. Nintendo of Japan is making "goddamn waifu games" and is apparently fine with it, they're even the ones who nudged the project into this direction. Nintendo of America is the problem here because they seemingly operate under the impression of some nightmare culture where cleavage in an entertainment product would lead to a lynch mob, when T rated games have featured sexuality much more explicitly than this game has with no apocalypse to society or publisher caused.There'd be no reason to do that if they had actually bothered making a game that had actually tried to draw on both IP's fanbases and beyond. Instead, they targeted a different niche that is actually narrower than both and not in line with the company's image in the first place, and I think calling them out on that is valid when we're discussing the potential profitability of this title.
The point is that if Nintendo doesn't want to have the image of being a publisher of waifu games, maybe they shouldn't make goddamn waifu games instead of doing it and then trying to cover their tracks
And I disagree that the solution would've been to make a "straight crossover" because both franchises they are crossing over commonly feature the contents they have censored here. Fire Emblem's most recent releases have both undergone censorship by Nintendo of America and Atlus games aren't exactly known for being tamer than Nintendo games. So no, a "straight crossover" of those franchises would've probably featured similarly "offensive" material and faced the same censorship. "Make an entirely different game" isn't any solution to the problem at hand and is just airing grievances people should've got over after the actual game has been revealed.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
While I don't know who it comes down to (though yeah, likely NoA telling Atlus what to do), we both agree that tidbit the press statement's had was some obvious damage control.
I get the annoyance by people who aren't into this kinda fanservicey stuff having the discussion of a game they want to play overshadowed by controversy, but lately for every overblown situation with an embarrassing rection like a 13 year old getting a very slight top change in Xenoblade X or exclusive Nintendo costumes in return for some skimpier outfits being cut in Fatal Frame*, there's something really far and overreaching I can't fault gamers for getting pissed off by.
Given some of this cut stuff was DLC, Nintendo could've just locked out younger players from purchasing it, but even that's assuming there'll even be younger players playing something like #FE. If Nintendo wants to get strict on making things more palatable for younger, western sensibilities then there has to be a way to do so without robbing older, hardcore players of content in the original games.
I can appreciate the attempt to make up for changes made for ratings concerns if there's an attempt to make up for it with new Western-exclusive content)
I understand there's a difference between Nintendo of Japan and Nintendo of America, but news flash, this game didn't sell for shit in Japan either. My criticism still stands. The execution of this title was a bad fit for Nintendo's audience and what they're doing now is a desperate and misguided attempt to correct that. My complaints aren't just a personal objection to the title existing in the form it does, because I'm still interested in it enough to get it, even if I don't think it's ideal. I just think it's a clear case of mismanaged IP.
Also miss me with the idea that SMT games regularly face notable censorship or that the Fire Emblem stuff was anything worth getting worked up about.
Also miss me with the idea that SMT games regularly face notable censorship or that the Fire Emblem stuff was anything worth getting worked up about.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Yes, SMT games usually don't face censorship because guess who keeps out of their localisation. And don't move the goalpost to what's "worth getting worked up about"; the point is if they had done a "straight crossover" that does indeed take stronger influence from Fire Emblem there would probably have been elements that may or may not have been "worth getting worked up about" considering they have been in the series for years now, so a "straight crossover" doesn't solve the localisation problems they sought to address with these changes -- it's entirely beside the point.
My comment about a straight crossover was about what I personally would have liked to see, not necessarily what I thought was the most marketable product. I thought I was clear about that but I guess not.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
It was indeed not apparent from these statements:
Even used the exact same phrase "most marketable product" just in a directly contradicting way.
Look, if you want to strip out half of what I said and then argue against what's left, that's your problem.
kunonabi
Member
The issue wasn't just a top change and Fatal Frame's problem was story content being altered due to the missing costume which is why the new costumes do jack squat to address it.
It isn't going to matter anyway since I think all of Nintendo's output going forward is going to be sanitized from inception in order to appease the Twitter thought police.
I have an idea for a target market: women. It's a thought that crossed my mind when I saw this game and considering how Nintendo has been subtly shifting in that direction since Animal Crossing and how games like Persona have captured a large female audience, I think it makes some sort of sense for this game to exist.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
I've already addressed the rest of your arguments above and then you fell back on supposed misunderstandings you directly contradict in that post. Nothing about the rest of that post changes how you said a "straight crossover" would've been the "most marketable product" and then went on to say you never thought a "straight crossover" would be the "most marketable product" or how they only have the localisation problems because they didn't go for a "straight crossover". Don't expect me to indulge more silly back-pedalling and goalpost moving. Come back with an argument that doesn't collapse into itself three posts later.
Persona has captured that audience without the need for censorship, though.
bishopcruz
Member
Persona also had a dub. And let's be real, Persona 3 sold around 200k copies in a system with an install base of 40 million plus and like an 80% market share. Persona 4 did around 300k IIRC, but maybe it was around 400K. Those games allowed that series to become a known quantity. Another note, those games weren't changed to the degree #FE is in fact they reveled in how Japanese they were. Persona 5 is exciting people because Persona 3 and 4 actually built upon a niche audience without speaking down to it.
Why don't you respond to things I actually said rather than making up the context of my posts for yourself? Because this is NOT what I said.
Second bolded part refers to the first bolded part, the part you cut out. I think they could have made the game like it was but leveraged the IP much more effectively than they did and it would have probably fared better than a straight crossover, even though that's what I would have preferred.
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