potatohead
Member
That's fair, and I think this is very honest.
We ourselves know best what appeals to ourselves, and being honest about that is important in finding games we will like
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Eurogamer: Is Uncharted more 'walking simulator' than action game?
- Thread starter Raylan
- Start date
That's fair, and I think this is very honest.
We ourselves know best what appeals to ourselves, and being honest about that is important in finding games we will like
Right, I'll go hard on this - mainly because I'm playing devil's advocate here.
Besides discovering new weapons with slightly different movesets, how exactly does Dark Souls' combat develop? From start to finish you're still just identifying enemies, dodging/blocking their attacks, and attacking them for damage. This doesn't change from start to finish. And stealth is a super rudimentary "stab them while they're not looking" system.
Also Dark Souls only has puzzles in the most bare sense. They go as far as 'i can pull this lever/move this switch to make other areas available'. The most complex iteration I can think of is the boulder slide in Sen's Fortress. Also none of these 'puzzles' have 'multiple solutions'. One switch/lever does one thing.
That's literally as reductive as you're being with your Uncharted examples. In my UC4 experience, the combat contexts mixed it up well with 5-6 enemy types forcing you to behave differently (I had to use different combat tactics when against snipers, against minigun guys, against shotgunners, etc) and the level design helped that along.
I don't fully disagree with you, but you're being very reductive re Uncharted here. 90% of games work like this and have these 'issues', yet you're hoisting Uncharted as the one in which it's a problem. If the pacing and design didn't work for you, that's fine, but you can't say it's a problem only Uncharted has when it's something common to games across the board and since the '80s.
potatohead
Member
Agree mucho much. There's so many games that can be criticized in the same way, but I think equally unfairly. Binary Domain is the most recent other TPS I've played. All the same "failings" as Uncharted, but I don't see why it's failing rather than not really much different than.... really any other game. It's fun, lots of shooting, nice characters, and some cutscenes to deliver some story aspects.
But.... that's so many games. Every game can be reduced to the same underpinnings, but then that just completely fails to acknowledge what is different among all these games too, and that is the biggest failure of a reductive approach to Uncharted 4 IMO.
Completely agree.
CharminUltra
Member
Damn, first page is a veritable graveyard. For a second there I thought this was a necrobump.
The article actually made me want to give U4 a try.
The article actually made me want to give U4 a try.
HyperCubed4
Member
Based on Eurogamer's description alone, Uncharted 4 sounds a lot like The Last of Us, in that it sacrifices action and combat for adventure and character building.
I wouldn't say that's a bad thing. Stopping the action to give your characters some actual character away from cutscenes has been done since Half-Life 2, at least as far as I can remember. All action, all the time is fine with certain games (something MGR something something), but I'm okay with games taking this approach as well.
Action-Adventure games could benefit from focusing on the Adventure part more.
There should be a Gaming Reaction subforum for people who don't think out their posts, nor want to. Until then, good riddance.
I wouldn't say that's a bad thing. Stopping the action to give your characters some actual character away from cutscenes has been done since Half-Life 2, at least as far as I can remember. All action, all the time is fine with certain games (something MGR something something), but I'm okay with games taking this approach as well.
Action-Adventure games could benefit from focusing on the Adventure part more.
There should be a Gaming Reaction subforum for people who don't think out their posts, nor want to. Until then, good riddance.
I don't think you actually understand what player agency means at this point.
If someone giving the player more control in a situation is REDUCING player agency in your eyes, then the discussion is over. There's literally no convincing you otherwise.
The way you're describing it makes it like you yourself are not really Nathan Drake. Nathan Drake is a separate entitiy in the world, and you're just sort of guiding him along until he does or says the next important thing. That doesn't really feel like me, as the player, is really being given any sort of agency, any sort of power. Nathan is his own man, he's calling the shots.
I don't know why someone would dismiss "linear" as a negative. It seems that's the trend these days.
There is nothing wrong with a linear game, as long as it's fun to play. Most arcade-style games are linear; those are my favorite games.
I say this not even having played most of the UC series (only half of the first game). Sometimes I don't feel like exploring, I just feel like action. Looking forward to playing UC2 on the $20 copy of Nathan Drake Collection I just ordered.
Yes, because if I've missed the integral character or story moment, as a result of being given full control during it and accidentally focusing elsewhere, the next gameplay element might not necessarily carry the same weight, incentive or importance.
It's weird, ND are one of the best developers in the world, and people act like they and other developers haven't carefully considered or tested these things. Cutscenes generally cost money and time, and with recent games, require mo-cap work, finite animation and everything else. If removing them did actually improve a game without diminishing the narrative, character exposition etc, I think developers would have gotten rid of them already in games like this.
Ricky Ricardo
Member
That's the joke. Drake spends a ton of time in UC4 dealing with baddies and then scrubs out trying to negotiate with
Rafe at the end before being forced to get serious.
Dougieflesh
Member
I'm glad that UC4 is linear. Makes the exciting segments worth it more. Also that first page is a graveyard lol.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
JetBlackPanda
Member
holy shit. its the rapture on page 1.
HyperCubed4
Member
Statements are empty when you don't back them up with anything. Why was it a moronic read?
EDIT: nevermind.
Don't most Action-Adventure games have more Action than Adventure? I think that's what the article is trying to get at.
Would you say that a sign of
ludonarrative dissonance
I actually hate that term
Were they a junior? Forever.
See now I wonder whether or not you're acting on your own confirmation bias. No one is projecting that Naughty Dog are bad developers, that they likely didn't test or consider this stuff. They're trying to present the idea that they see a game that they could like in Uncharted, but there are certain aspects of it's design that they personally could do without. The moment you bring any of this up, you have people like you that come in here and try to explain that they literally could not do it in any other way, and some people (given this thread a LOT of people) take it a step further into insulting the person/criticism/outlet/anything that dares speak ill of it. We do this for every single game out there, yet there is an extra level of deflection that Uncharted gets on here. This thread being a graveyard for an article that does nothing but speak highly of the game is real telling of how quick people are to jump the gun and blindly defend the game from any and all potential criticism. The fervor over the 4/10 review was just as sad.
We all know that every game is not for every person. But some people (like myself) make genuine efforts to try and like stuff even if there are things holding them back, and voice their opinions in the hope that maybe they will get something a little more closer to their tastes the next time. I like the idea of Uncharted and it's world, and if Naughty Dog ever gave me a game that was Uncharted but a bit more actiony I would play it in a heartbeat. If they don't I'm obviously going to be disappointed, but that's life and I would continue the cycle again. At some point maybe there's enough like minded people that Naughty Dog would consider changing it up. When I voice my opinion on something like this, I shouldn't be shouted out by the community, one that you are a part of, telling me I'm wrong. You can argue that all game communities are like this, but that's not exactly excusing yours is it?
I've never understood this sentiment. Sure these games have great slow moments when you take your time to explore the world, but equally important to observing the world is observing what your characters do in that world. If movies have the rule of "Show, don't tell," then the equivalent for games is "Do, don't show." It's one thing to show the downfall of civilization with the environments in Last of Us, but in order to show the casualness of violence in this world and how far Joel himself has lost his humanity, then you need to go and smash someone's face in with a brick.
This thread has a higher death count than in all Uncharted games combined.
And yeah, Uncharted definitely is more automatic than other action games, but it succeeds in this approach. I don't mind this kind of gameplay, but as the article says, it's pretty risky and requires a competent team to make the "walking Simulator" parts intetesting. Fortunately, Naughty Dog gets it.
And yeah, Uncharted definitely is more automatic than other action games, but it succeeds in this approach. I don't mind this kind of gameplay, but as the article says, it's pretty risky and requires a competent team to make the "walking Simulator" parts intetesting. Fortunately, Naughty Dog gets it.
Touche, man
I was wondering how long it is for regular members
Usually 2 weeks
probably 2 weeks to a month, maybe two months if the mod was having a bad day
orthodoxy1095
Banned
I understand the article.
I'm saying you could critique the game for those elements. In fact, you could write some great critiques of the game based on them.
But those (critiquable) elements do not make it a walking simulator like the author seems to think they do.
Cabbagehead
Member
You're doing it wrong Eurogamer.
Stallion Dan
Member
But it's not how UC1-3 were done. UC4 feels like too much of TLOU was injected into it and I personally think it was a negative for Uncharted gameplay. The bits where you need stop and run back over to a co-op buddy to start some dialogue are a terrible example, they dialogue should just be there as you move forward like previous games. And the game has like a billion missable collectables now like TLOU with some interesting info, so you either screw up the pacing looking over every area for them or just skip them and miss the info, it should all be there part of the story. Works in TLOU because you're searching everywhere for supplies anyway, doesn't work for UNcharted where you're generally breezing quickly forward.
Binary Domain was one of the games I was thinking of when I said Uncharted is not much different from a lot of other TPS. It's just much more popular.
Dynasty8
Member
Definitely not a walking simulator, BUT I did find Uncharted 4's campaign to have FAR more walking, climbing, falling, sliding, and exploration segments than actual combat compared to previous titles in the franchise. I started missing the action sequences greatly at one point.
I liked the game greatly, but replaying the campaign a second time feels like a chore to be honest...the action sequences are much more minimal this time around.
I liked the game greatly, but replaying the campaign a second time feels like a chore to be honest...the action sequences are much more minimal this time around.
There is definitely more of that here, but I prefer the balanced, strong story approach. I personally think it is just better for a game like this. I feel more involved and immersed into what is going on.
Sun Bather
Member
Maybe. But I am just fine with walking simulators too, some of my favorite games the last 5 years have been without much combat or traditional fighting gameplay.
I've only played the first, oooh, six chapters or so of Uncharted 4, but I don't think it's particularly hard to see where the article is coming from.
The game puts you in a couple of action sequences in that time of the stop-n-pop gunplay that makes up much of Uncharted, but much of the game up to that point involves environmental traversal of the most skill-free kind and pressing X to look at bits of scenery or hand people objects. I haven't yet handled a gun as Nathan, for instance, after a good few hours of playtime
.
While almost all gameplay is reducible down to pushing a stick and pressing a button if you're being absurd, it's the low level of skill at doing those things required that brings much of that experience into line with so-called "walking simulators".
I don't think it's a negative in Uncharted for many of the reasons the article suggests. The environmental storytelling is good; the characters are well animated, written and performed such that what you are doing has emotional resonance. It is fun to climb up obviously signposted walls because it looks and feels fun; it's fun to take part in the events of Chapter 4 despite their relatively limited skill barrier.
The game puts you in a couple of action sequences in that time of the stop-n-pop gunplay that makes up much of Uncharted, but much of the game up to that point involves environmental traversal of the most skill-free kind and pressing X to look at bits of scenery or hand people objects. I haven't yet handled a gun as Nathan, for instance, after a good few hours of playtime
although I suppose the prologue counts?
While almost all gameplay is reducible down to pushing a stick and pressing a button if you're being absurd, it's the low level of skill at doing those things required that brings much of that experience into line with so-called "walking simulators".
I don't think it's a negative in Uncharted for many of the reasons the article suggests. The environmental storytelling is good; the characters are well animated, written and performed such that what you are doing has emotional resonance. It is fun to climb up obviously signposted walls because it looks and feels fun; it's fun to take part in the events of Chapter 4 despite their relatively limited skill barrier.
TLoU had ladders, UC4 has boxes on wheels, TLoU2 will have ladders with wheels
petran79
Banned
At least they did not make Uncharted 4 as serious as TLOU.
I remember we were impressed with Uncharted 1 back then, but we did not bother with the sequels, since there were other games to play.
Then my friend who owned the console, decided to try UC3, having played TLOU before.
When he heard the dialogue he stopped playing
It definitely has a lot in common with the (much loved by me and others) walking simulator genre. It's like the most expensive semi-interactivity ever:
+ climb by numbers sections
+ heavy story periods (like chapter 3, 4)
+ like the article nicely puts, "intentionally frictionless puzzles"
+ exploration downtime (remember, walking simulators are generally not linear, just light on player verbs)
I'm on chapter 10, and I'd say about half the content is that so far.
+ climb by numbers sections
+ heavy story periods (like chapter 3, 4)
+ like the article nicely puts, "intentionally frictionless puzzles"
+ exploration downtime (remember, walking simulators are generally not linear, just light on player verbs)
I'm on chapter 10, and I'd say about half the content is that so far.
I'd argue that most games are actually getting pretty good at finding a good balance of action/adventure (Assassin's Creed, Last of Us, LoZ), though I can understand that some games also lean more heavily towards the action. That said, the article is clearly meant to strike a nerve with people with that title.
Has anyone called Uncharted or other Action/Adventure games walking simulators other than this guy? If so, the quote above would make a little more sense, but from what it sounds like, it sounds like he's saying, "Snappy dialogue and cool cutscenes are making action/adventure games into walking simulators" (at least how I'm reading it).
Defines a walking simulator and then says, "Uncharted does not fit this definition apparently...but doesn't it??"
The reasoning behind his examples are so weak that you could use his logic for any game. Is Skyrim a walking simulator since you're not always talking to NPCs and taking on quests? Aren't you walking around a lot? Skyrim, therefore, is more walking simulator than RPG.
...that's just how I'm reading the article, anyways.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
I mentioned it earlier in the thread but yes, Skyrim does get called a walking simulator. Google skyrim walking simulator if you don't believe me.
I hate "Walking Simulator" as a descriptor. There's this built-in dismissive, reductive sarcasm to it that just irks me to no end.
Regarding UC4 itself, I'm 10 chapters in. I find the quieter moments to be my favorites, where incidental dialogue subtly builds character relationships without you even noticing. The same was true for The Last of Us. I find the combat, traversal, stealth, cart pushing stuff to not be that interesting (feel like I've done all of this already in Rise of the Tomb Raider), and essentially just look forward to the next major (or minor) story beat.
Honestly, though, I'm OK with that. I know what I'm getting into with this series.
Regarding UC4 itself, I'm 10 chapters in. I find the quieter moments to be my favorites, where incidental dialogue subtly builds character relationships without you even noticing. The same was true for The Last of Us. I find the combat, traversal, stealth, cart pushing stuff to not be that interesting (feel like I've done all of this already in Rise of the Tomb Raider), and essentially just look forward to the next major (or minor) story beat.
Honestly, though, I'm OK with that. I know what I'm getting into with this series.
LightofRohan
Member
All these types of articles and discussions just show how immature and shallow a lot of the people in our industry are still. Could you imagine a film journalist complaining about a film because it doesnt have enough shooting and explosions?
I get a lot of people are about adhd fun at all times, but those still/always exist. They arent going away! Some slower more story bases titles should be rejoiced.
I get a lot of people are about adhd fun at all times, but those still/always exist. They arent going away! Some slower more story bases titles should be rejoiced.
TheCanisDirus
Member
Yeah, holy shit!? Why were those members banned? Their posts didn't seem "bad".?
On topic - Wasn't it said that the pacing and tone of this last uncharted was deliberately more "mature" compared to the previous titles? Or something of the like... could have sworn i heard that on some interview or podcast.
TheOfficeMut
Unconfirmed Member
Even the OP was banned? Lmao Ugh
mrqs
Member
I really don't like the Uncharted formula. I mean, Uncharted 4 is great, but combat and set pieces are kinda meaningless... It's just a visual "WOW" and this doesn't hold up through time. Characters and stories hold up through time, and Uncharted 4 has one that's better than most of those other games, so it's kinda fun.
But the moment to moment gameplay it's barebones, the rope in 4 was a great feature but gunplay in general doesn't have any progression. You do the same thing in the first hour and the same thing in the last hour.
The problem is that Uncharted was one of the first TPS of the last generation and Naughty Dog had to make a game around that, again. Not my kind of game, but i'm sure some people love it.
I liked The Last of Us better, it was more refreshing and deep. Not large set pieces that mean little to nothing, all has meaning and an why it was happening.
But the moment to moment gameplay it's barebones, the rope in 4 was a great feature but gunplay in general doesn't have any progression. You do the same thing in the first hour and the same thing in the last hour.
The problem is that Uncharted was one of the first TPS of the last generation and Naughty Dog had to make a game around that, again. Not my kind of game, but i'm sure some people love it.
I liked The Last of Us better, it was more refreshing and deep. Not large set pieces that mean little to nothing, all has meaning and an why it was happening.
HyperCubed4
Member
I can't believe I forgot about Legend of Zelda, those games are indeed more Adventure than Action, you're absolutely right. I don't give Action-Adventure games enough credit, apparently.
I would hope Jeffrey Matulef is applying "walking simulator" strictly to games similar to Uncharted; I don't think many people would apply the term to open world RPGs, lol.
But maybe the intent of the article is to shame the term "walking simulator," because of how broad it is? The article doesn't read like that, though, so I think I'm inclined to agree with you.
KiefbladeMaster
Member
What is he talking about? You can't randomly mash buttons and climb up shit in Uncharted.. especially previous entries. You actually do need to hold the direction you'd like the character to go.
In that particular box car sequence you use all of the traversal mechanics in the game to get out of it.This article is very poorly written. Comparing the series to Gone Home and Firewatch -- really? Like he basically shits on the game for the whole article and then is like 'it's great tho!'. I personally like the changes to the pacing in the beginning. It sets up the atmosphere a lot better. People were complaining about it being a 'mass-murder simulator' and it looks like Naughty Dog was listening to that feedback.