Crash Station
Member
So are they changing the context of this scene too? Are the NPCs surprised because she's there at all now?
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Western Localisation Of Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE Features Costume And Age Changes
- Thread starter Storm Chamber
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So are they changing the context of this scene too? Are the NPCs surprised because she's there at all now?
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
The ESRB can get awfully picky about random things. I haven't been involved in any ESRB submissions in over a decade, we got hit with random issues to address or change all the time.
I don't know if everything that's being changed for this game would have been enough to push the rating up to a M instead of a T, but I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be the case. Whether Nintendo shouldn't have bothered and just accepted the M rating is another discussion. For whatever reason, be it a business decision driven by their financial forecasting or something else, they want no higher than a T.
An asset change like that is pretty trivial, not a lot of work, and a lot cheaper than doing a full dub. Regardless of the debate on whether it's "unnecessary" or not, the work involved really isn't all that much in terms of actual man hours.
...what?
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
So it seems they are well aware of whom this game is targeted at, yet went through with the changes questioned in this very thread regardless? Still invoking waifuism doesn't strike me as tailoring this for a non-niche audience.
LordGorchnik
Member
Any changes made to the in-game content were due to varying requirements and regulations in the many different territories Nintendo distributes its products.
The most hilarious thing about this statement is how much BS it is. Think about all the things that are being censored now that have never been censored before:
The most hilarious thing about this statement is how much BS it is. Think about all the things that are being censored now that have never been censored before:
- Pelvic bones
- People laying down
- Bare legs/thighs
- Shading on skin textures
- Dungeon designs/textures
It's fine to be upset about the changes to TMS, but you're being hyperbolic. Have you read this thread closely and looked at the pictures? There is no sense in which Nintendo is removing attractive characters or "anything that remotely accentuates the female form." That's obviously and demonstrably false, and just contributes to a hysterical representation of what's actually going on.
If you use terms that are extreme and exaggerated to describe relatively mild changes, you'll essentially be crying wolf. Then, if truly egregious localization changes happen (white washing, for example) you'll be stuck using the same words you used for characters wearing somewhat less revealing clothing.
There isn't anything in the game that would've pushed it up to an M rating. I've played multiple T-rated games that show bare butts and the majority of breasts except the nipple, there's nothing like that even in the Japanese version of #FE. Hell, Xenoblade X had thong armor sets and Playboy bunny costumes, and that was rated T as well. Nintendo is just super inconsistent in their censoring efforts.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Hang on though, even Compile Hearts games usually get a T.
As an extreme example, Omega Quintet was T, but a D (17+) in Japan, without any content changes as far as I know. Disclaimer: I don't play Compile Hearts games so I wouldn't know
And even if the ESRB can be picky, we've seen more in other T rated games.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Wait, what's this referring to?
True enough.
I don't work in game development, so I can't really say what does/doesn't go on behind-the-scenes. It still seems a bit excessive from my point-of-view. It's not so much what's being edited that bothers me (although, the removal of DLC definitely does), it's that NoA felt it necessary in the first place, especially considering the T-rating (that likely wouldn't have changed regardless, even if they made a direct 1:1 localization of the Japanese release). I've known of edits before, but NoA seems to be going above-and-beyond what's required.
Oh well, not much can be done about it at this point. :/
Yeah, nothing was censored in Omega Quintet for the west and it got a T rating. Idea Factory International decided to not localize anymore games they thought they might need to censor in order to release in the west after Monster Monpiece (which resulted in its two sequels only getting Asian English releases).
Wasn't it originally intended to be an M, or at least what they were expecting it to be?
Maiko is laying down on a couch in one of the Japanese scenes. They changed it to her sitting in the English version.
I'm curious how the localization changes even happened a lot of times. You have dialogue changes which would indicate that changes may have been done right during development. You have inconsistencies like that one boss's breasts being covered by smoke in a cutscene, but not gameplay. Then, you have cleavage being covered.....but Tsubasa's pegasus outfit still has it in what's probably one of the outfits we'll see most out of. It once again gets me curious how much may have even been changed before it even reached Atlus itself.
Also, I've been saying I see the changes for 'image' reasons, but that is pretty funny when taking into account that the E3 trailers that even had pre-Japanese change Kiria probably got more views than what would be expected from sales of the game and views of scenes post-release.
Also, I've been saying I see the changes for 'image' reasons, but that is pretty funny when taking into account that the E3 trailers that even had pre-Japanese change Kiria probably got more views than what would be expected from sales of the game and views of scenes post-release.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Patches by fans made possible via homebrew on Wii U! Further proof that control of your own computing devices is a net gain to the customer ヽ(´o｀；
Pardon? A character lying down? I have missed this and it sure illustrates how utterly weird this roller-coaster ride of censorship has been.
That's what the unveil trailers for the game had as an ESRB notice, but it became obvious the more this game was shown that there wouldn't be anything in terms of content here that would really push this to an M (initial speculation was that there were much darker undertones to #FE than were being presented).
Yes, I included it in this post.
One of the trailers did have a notice that it was probably going to be M rated.
I'd hold off on drawing conclusions on the inconsistencies in the edits. Seems like they are a work in progress, given the localized PVs we have now and the clips of non-edited PVs we have seen in previous marketing materials.
I believe they will be consistent come release, for better or worse.
I believe they will be consistent come release, for better or worse.
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
All I know from my time doing it way back when is that, depending on context, what was acceptable in one game may not be considered acceptable for the same rating in another. And developers/publishers were the ones responsible for submitting most of the footage to get reviewed by them for a rating, it wasn't unheard of for something slipping through with stuff that would have gotten dinged by the ratings board but wasn't because it wasn't part of the submitted footage.
-shadow-
Member
From a few pages back. If anything the new position has only made it even more explicit.
Edit: Beaten in the time that I was looking for the image.
People already have review copies.
This game comes out in a month. WIP doesn't ring true to me.
Now THAT'S the weirdest one.
This is a game that Nintendo clearly doesn't want, isn't comfortable with, and probably regrets funding and associating with. The Japanese release tanked, so there's obviously not much interest from the core demographic it was made for, especially with all the effort put into the music and stuff. The western side of Nintendo clearly wishes this game isn't what it is, and favors hacking it up just to appear less embarrassing. Core SMT don't seem to care much for the tone the game has, even though the gameplay might be neat. Core FE fans seem to be annoyed at how the crossover has nothing to do with the tone FE is known for and liked for.
So based on all that, my casual conclusion is that this game should have never been made. This isn't a matter of creative expression or whatever, but I honestly feel that given the end result here and all the negativity it's causing the majority of parties involved, the time, effort and resources put into developing this game and localizing it could have been better served with pretty much any other project Atlus and Nintendo had on their individual ends. What a waste of everyone's time and effort.
So based on all that, my casual conclusion is that this game should have never been made. This isn't a matter of creative expression or whatever, but I honestly feel that given the end result here and all the negativity it's causing the majority of parties involved, the time, effort and resources put into developing this game and localizing it could have been better served with pretty much any other project Atlus and Nintendo had on their individual ends. What a waste of everyone's time and effort.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
That's what they put into the trailer as a precautionary notice while no rating was clear, but nothing in this game would've warranted an M if you compared it to other T rated titles so they were either very wrong in that assumption or just put it there because you cover most of your bases with that.
Yeah, I've sort of scrolled past that since I've seen most of the images but it caused me to overlook that one. The camera angle makes it even more ridiculous because there's barely a difference.
Having her in a sitting position with him standing in front just seems like an even worst visual to have lol
I still think it's pelvic shading. You can easily spot the difference of the scene when two shots are compared. For the pelvic shading? Even if you had put both shots side-by-side, I would have no idea what the difference was unless I scrutinized it significantly for whatever reason, or I was told.
It does seem that way, yeah.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
I think Duckroll has it. NOA in particular REALLY doesn't want this game and it shows in the more extreme changes.
The ESRB angle strikes me as unlikely because M seems like a stretch an uncertain intern could make about a "hard T" rating when really the ESRB can sometimes be "soft."
But Nintendo of America doesn't want this game.
If we're lucky we might get a Tsubasa trophy in the next Smash Bros. game, but I think this is it for Nintendo funding an Atlus game.
The ESRB angle strikes me as unlikely because M seems like a stretch an uncertain intern could make about a "hard T" rating when really the ESRB can sometimes be "soft."
But Nintendo of America doesn't want this game.
If we're lucky we might get a Tsubasa trophy in the next Smash Bros. game, but I think this is it for Nintendo funding an Atlus game.
Idol music videos confirmed to be censored too. The original plays first, followed by the NA/censored version. They do a side-by-side later in the video. I knew the edits would extend to these too. What's strange is that they kept the cleavage later when Tsubasa is transformed, but not when she's singing. So many inconsistencies with these edits.
Japanese Version:
North American Version:
And yet...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2QRlnLNYbs
Japanese Version:
North American Version:
And yet...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2QRlnLNYbs
This is pretty much what I was trying to say at first. Honestly I think this comes down to the producer at Nintendo who was in touch with the director for this game not just failing to rein him in when he came at her with this bonkers concept AFTER "SMT x FE" had already been announced, but enabling him. Oy.
I'll go with the latter then with how finicky the esrb is.
Obviously coming from a place of less knowledge in regards to this, but it's generally just hard to believe content in this game would push it to an 'M' when other games get through with a 'T' all the time. Agarest, Neptunia, even the Atelier series. The worst this game seemed to have was swimsuits in comparison. It's not even a case with those first two particularly getting away with anything since its content was very front-and-center though I do think one of the latest Neptunia ones got an 'M'.
Add in the changes with Fatal Frame 5 and it seems more like voluntary changes. There's also the wording of Nintendo's statement that makes it ambiguous enough, so that they're not necessarily talking about rating boards. I assume how to say things without it necessarily meaning one thing is taught when getting a PR/Marketing major.
That said, thanks for the information. It's always good to hear from someone that has some form of experience with this.
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
I'm not saying it's likely, just that based on my experience with them in the past it's not completely out of the question either.
A post mortem on this game would be so fascinating. I really do wonder how Nintendo's producers were able to get this to come together as it did.
Devil's Third probably falls into the same category, especially with the whole Amazon-exclusive retail release in Japan, but that was at least consistent with the push for character-based action titles at the time.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Well, I'm getting increasingly annoyed at the bullshit they have pulled to the point of me not wanting their butchered version of it. They have ridiculously mishandled this release.
Taking out the Japanese (and English) characters seems weird in that anime scene when it's already been stated to take place in Tokyo with Japanese characters all over the place in gameplay. Were the people responsible for looking for things to change in the cutscenes not the same people to find things to change in the gameplay?
Well, there's no English voice track. There's an obvious tell.
I dunno why this game is what it is. I was excited for it initially and after SMT4, but this is like Fruitcake, if you ask me.
Fire Emblem = Awesome
SMT = Awesome
Put em together and it should also be awesome. But you get Persona when you combine them, somehow. It doesn't make sense.
NoA not wanting this game fits. They've barely even been marketing it when it comes out so soon. They had one trailer after the Direct and a PAX showing... and that's basically it. I dunno, I'd expect a few more videos from them? Doesn't seem like we're even going to get character trailers. And we know the game's not going to be at E3.
With Persona 4: Dancing All Night, I find it very hard to believe that #FE was at a risk of being rated M, as it is now.
With Persona 4: Dancing All Night, I find it very hard to believe that #FE was at a risk of being rated M, as it is now.
I'd wager that's very likely. Probably also the source of other inconsistencies or weirdness.
NoA doesn't generally do that much before very near release unless its a marketing blow-out.
If #FE was Persona, there'd be a lot more excitement around it than what we're seeing now. Like people have kept saying ever since April 1, 2015, this is like Persona on such an extremely superficial level that it doesn't actually resonate with a lot of people who actually do like Persona. The Japanese reactions and its sales performance are a testament to that.
But yes, as this endlessly reoccurring statement points to, this game would have clearly performed much better if it was the straight up cross-over SRPG it was once envisioned to be.
There was a whole lot more for Xenoblade Chronicles X before that game's release at this point in time.
At least with the Devil's Third it seems everyone more or less recognized that and acknowledged it before it was even released. Barebones distribution, zero marketing, and they even agreed to let Valhalla go shop the multiplayer component around on PC to their own satisfaction. I would say that's making the best out of a bad situation they were already in.
Here it feels like they're dragging out their own suffering. It takes MORE effort to comb through a game and to enforce edits and changes both in text and in graphic assets. Doing all this to somehow make the game seem less embarrassing to some imaginary audience that would appreciate or care for that? What a waste of time. The people who are open to playing this game in the first place and buying it would be fine with what it is. It's not like this is some lewd perverted child touching game. It doesn't seem any more "lewd" than the Rise stuff in Persona 4, which touched on the same idol themes. The people who don't care for idols, waifus, fanservice, or the heavy modern Japanophile-centric themes, are not going to care about the game with or without these edits.
I'm baffled as to why Nintendo wants to waste so much effort in getting people more riled up.
Yeah. I've been saying from the beginning that they're essentially pushing this game out with the hope that it'd cause minimal controversy because of obligations of needing to release the game.
I wouldn't say it'd be the end all, be all for collaborations for the company especially if Persona 5 ends up doing really well. Nintendo would probably be more specific with what type of game they may want though.
I do agree with this.
There've been a number of interviews explaining the creative process behind the game's origins, but I still feel like there's this weird disconnect concerning just HOW they arrived to #FE. We've got the creative leads behind games like Radiant Historia, SMT: Strange Journey, SMT: Nocturne and Devil Survivor, with the initial concept of this being a combination of the Fire Emblem series and SMT series, and that really did result in a monumental Fusion Accident into #FE.
It really does make me keep thinking that the people at Atlus were like, "Since we're not paying for this, let's experiment a whole lot so we can take the lessons learned from this game into our own projects in the future." They decided to go nuts, and Nintendo was there to also guide them along a specific path, but at no point did someone go "Maybe we shouldn't go too crazy?"
One of the weirdest projects I've followed. From initial announcement all the way up to Western release.
Astral Dog
Member
It matters if the actual game design is good, i think.could say the same about Wonderful 101 but that was still pretty good.
It requires to have a big open mind,however.
Only question is, if NOA didn't want this game, wouldn't they try to do as little editing as possible and throw it out?
Instead we're seeing quite the volume of edits, including a voice change, which I believe is the first time in localization history that a Japanese spoken line was changed to match a censored item.
Instead we're seeing quite the volume of edits, including a voice change, which I believe is the first time in localization history that a Japanese spoken line was changed to match a censored item.
J
Jotamide
Unconfirmed Member
I hope so. I mean the case with Bayo 2 was the exact opposite. They gave the fans what they wanted and didn't tone anything down. I'd rather Atlus not work with them again if this will be the end result.
They should've just let Atlus publish the game in the west and distanced themselves from it completely if they didn't want it, like they did when they gave XSEED The Last Story and Pandora's Tower. Atlus would've released it uncensored and we wouldn't be discussing any of this.
Multiple actually. Both Tsubasa when she mentions her age, and the photographer dude when he sees Tsubasa in her costume. That's only the beginning of the game too, who knows how deep it goes.
As Duckroll stated, it's baffling, but as others have said as well, it could be because they want to crush any potential source of controversy #FE could bring. Because of their own potential disinclination towards the project, they don't want it being troublesome in any way for them moving forward. They'd want it to release to the niche audience it's clearly for and... that's that. No more having to think about #FE from that point onwards.
Man, all of the changes that have been discussed are only the beginning of the game. At this point, I'm kind of excited just to see what other minor modifications have been made.
It's probably a really complicated situation when we've got Fire Emblem characters—direct Nintendo IP characters—in the game, when Nintendo are the ones who fronted the cash and published it in Japan, and when they were the ones talking about Treehouse's localization and all that at E3 2015. It's actually crazy enough that Atlus USA is localizing the game in the first place.
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