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Western Localisation Of Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE Features Costume And Age Changes

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I would agree if they were just censoring outfits. But they're not just doing that. They're changing scenarios and censoring story beats and themes. That's really, really bad to me no matter who does it and for what purposes, marketing or otherwise.

Ok. Sure. You're well within your rights to dislike the changes. But this notion that if you say "I like these changes and am glad they're making them as it makes the product more appealing to me" then you're bad and/or wrong is absurd. Ultimately, we can vote with our wallets, but we aren't the ones making these calls. They're business decisions.

"You're only for this because it suits your agenda!"

Well, no. They could add more fanservice and though I'd be even less inclined to buy the game, I wouldn't consider it some unforgivable trespass against authorial intent. It's their game. It's their call how to localize it.
 
I would agree if they were just censoring outfits. But they're not just doing that. They're changing scenarios and censoring story beats and themes. That's really, really bad to me no matter who does it and for what purposes, marketing or otherwise.

I'm not sure if you've thought your last sentence through. Let's say there was a flagrantly racist story section that was changed in localization to remove that part. Are you saying you'd be in this thread passionately arguing that they keep the racism in-game?

Here's another scenario: the creative director states that he/she considers both versions of the stories legitimate and thinks they both reflect his/her vision in different ways. Would you still be arguing against the changes?
 
I'm not sure if you've thought your last sentence through. Let's say there was a flagrantly racist story section that was changed in localization to remove that part. Are you saying you'd be in this thread passionately arguing that they keep the racism in-game?

Here's another scenario: the creative director states that he/she considers both versions of the stories legitimate and thinks they both reflect his/her vision in different ways. Would you still be arguing against the changes?
Of course they wouldn't - it would be all about "agendas" and "pressure" and "PC culture".
Just admit you want your panty zippers and boob cams kept intact and call it a day.
 
I'm fine with calling it censorship if that's what we want to call it. That's not entirely unfair. Where I differ is in terms of whether or not censorship is inherently bad. Like I said, the government is censoring reporters from notifying the public about human rights abuses? Ok, yeah. Definitely bad. We should fight against it. A corporation making branding/marketing decisions to try and make a product more palatable for a different territory? Yeah, I'm not on board with this being some sort of civil or consumer rights fight that everyone should be fired up about.

No one is saying that everyone should be fired up about this or that it is at all comparable to government censorship. Hell, people aren't even saying Nintendo don't have a right to do this because it's very much their freedom to do so. But people are rightfully criticizing them for valid reasons, one being their recent decisions echoes back to the days when Nintendo was far more draconian in their policies about what could be depicted which included religious references being removed and all traces of a well-liked transgender character's gender identity being erased from existence. People are frustrated and they have every right to be frustrated.
 
No one is saying that everyone should be fired up about this or that it is at all comparable to government censorship. Hell, people aren't even saying Nintendo don't have a right to do this because it's very much their freedom to do so. But people are rightfully criticizing them for valid reasons, one being their recent decisions echoes back to the days when Nintendo was far more draconian in their policies about what could be depicted which included religious references being removed and all traces of a well-liked transgender character's gender identity being erased from existence. People are frustrated and they have every right to be frustrated.

Let me just be clear: don't accuse a fellow poster of not being professional for merely not agreeing with you on this.
 
No one is saying that everyone should be fired up about this or that it is at all comparable to government censorship.

The fervor and, at times vitriol, say otherwise - even if not explictly stated. Look at all the hyperbole that gets used whenever the topic comes up, including this very thread. Especially when the echo chamber effect starts and people amplify things and start immediately replying extremely negatively to anyone with any semblance of dissenting opinion.
 
At this point, I'm kinda interested in all the localization changes simply from wondering how many changes there are, to what degree, and why what was changed was considered worth changing. It's basically like looking at 4kids comparisons 10 years ago to see images of japanese text removed from signs and book covers wondering why it was changed. Fire Emblem: Fates and Xenoblade in comparison seemed to have pretty good consistency in what was changed compared to #FE so far.
 
I'm not sure if you've thought your last sentence through. Let's say there was a flagrantly racist story section that was changed in localization to remove that part. Are you saying you'd be in this thread passionately arguing that they keep the racism in-game?

He's done it with the Native American->cowboy change in Bravely Second, and honestly I agreed with him there as well. It's very jarring seeing Aimee in the game as she now is.

Of course they wouldn't - it would be all about "agendas" and "pressure" and "PC culture".
Just admit you want your panty zippers and boob cams kept intact and call it a day.

I don't give a shit about panty zippers. There are actual thematic discussions being lost like when Fatal Frame V completely missed the point of what a gravure model was. We're not talking about Criminal Girls adding more steam or even Fire Emblem Fates removing skinship (though that was shitty for other reasons).
 
I'm fine with calling it censorship if that's what we want to call it. That's not entirely unfair. Where I differ is in terms of whether or not censorship is inherently bad. Like I said, the government is censoring reporters from notifying the public about human rights abuses? Ok, yeah. Definitely bad. We should fight against it. A corporation making branding/marketing decisions to try and make a product more palatable for a different territory? Yeah, I'm not on board with this being some sort of civil or consumer rights fight that everyone should be fired up about.

You do realize you are pretty much expressing the exact reason why there has been this asinine movement of semantics trying to censor the word "censorship" on this board lately by people, often times completely derailing a thread. Because it makes people uncomfortable to be for it. Trying to slap another label on it so you can compartmentalize it and say "well this is censorship that is more palatable to my taste so its ok" is just for your and others who aren't into other things, personal benefit. It's still censorship. People just need to suck it up and accept they are either for censorship or not, freedom of art, media and expression unfortunately comes with things you may not like as well, thats just the truth of the matter. If its not to peoples taste, then let the market decide instead, especially if its already legal and available elsewhere for consumption.
 
And I mean, Zebody has million sellers under their belt.

That's not actually true. I haven't calculated the total recently, but our best-selling game to date is Cthulhu Saves the World which is under 1 million and over 500k. Also, all of those sales were made at dirt cheap prices ($3 and under). Hoping our next game breaks our record. :)

I'm fine with calling it censorship if that's what we want to call it. That's not entirely unfair. Where I differ is in terms of whether or not censorship is inherently bad. Like I said, the government is censoring reporters from notifying the public about human rights abuses? Ok, yeah. Definitely bad. We should fight against it. A corporation making branding/marketing decisions to try and make a product more palatable for a different territory? Yeah, I'm not on board with this being some sort of civil or consumer rights fight that everyone should be fired up about.

Which was one of my main points in the first place. This isn't some outside force swooping in and preventing access to human rights information. This is the owner of a game changing it in different regions to try to make it more appealing to the target marketplace and hopefully make it more profitable. Now, there's certainly an argument that can be made that the changes they're making are misguided, lack consistency, or may even backfire, but the idea that the publisher of a work shouldn't be allowed to do what they want with their game to try to make it more successful isn't a stance I'm willing to take.

I'm pro-developer & publisher rights (which for your typical indie team are the same entity). I've always treated game development as both art and business because if you only treat game development as art, you usually go out of business and don't get to make any more art. And in this specific instance, with Nintendo's edits to TMS, their attempts to make the game more enticing works on me - I wouldn't buy the Hot Springs DLC if it was offered and I think the costume changes they've made for the most part are an improvement over the Japanese versions. I would have bought the game with no such edits, but I'm not going to get mad when I like the changes for the most part.
 
You do realize you are pretty much expressing the exact reason why there has been this asinine movement of semantics trying to censor the word "censorship" on this board lately by people, often times completely derailing a thread. Because it makes people uncomfortable to be for it. Trying to slap another label on it so you can compartmentalize it and say "well this is censorship that is more palatable to my taste so its ok" is just for your and others who aren't into other things, personal benefit. It's still censorship. People just need to suck it up and accept they are either for censorship or not, freedom of art, media and expression unfortunately comes with things you may not like as well, thats just the truth of the matter. If its not to peoples taste, then let the market decide instead, especially if its already legal and available elsewhere for consumption.

I don't really understand this at all as a response to what I wrote.
 
What?
Where?
I call bollocks on your statement.

Basically everywhere? Every time something about censoring pops up it wont take long until someone intervenes "Oh, but its just localization"

If you have lived as an example in germany you would propably think different about that matter because we had to deal 3 decades with getting games censored or even completely banned from the country because there was some violence in it.
 
Here's another scenario: the creative director states that he/she considers both versions of the stories legitimate and thinks they both reflect his/her vision in different ways. Would you still be arguing against the changes?

Depending on what it was, absolutely. If we're talking about something like name changes like Eggman/Robotnik until Robotnik became canon, that's whatever. If we're talking about the writer of Final Fantasy X signing off on Yuna's final line to Tidus, you bet I'll still argue against the change.

I'll never say a creator doesn't have the right to change or sign off on any changes to their work, but I'll criticize said changes if I personally feel they don't work as well.

Edit: The only thing I'm iffy on here is Phoenix Wright, and I'll admit that is 100% based on nostalgia biases.
 
Basically everywhere? Every time something about censoring pops up it wont take long until someone intervenes "Oh, but its just localization"

If you have lived as an example in germany you would propably think different about that matter because we had to deal 3 decades with getting games censored or even completely banned from the country because there was some violence in it.
"Basically everywhere"
*provides no concrete examples*
Right then, thanks for your contribution. Continue getting fired up over creators adjusting their work as they see fit.

Depending on what it was, absolutely. If we're talking about something like name changes like Eggman/Robotnik until Robotnik became canon, that's whatever. If we're talking about the writer of Final Fantasy X signing off on Yuna's final line to Tidus, you bet I'll still argue against the change.
Wait, what? Unless the writer's change is in line with what you want, it's not okay?
Tell me again please how this isn't about ethics in panty zippers.
 
I'm not sure if you've thought your last sentence through. Let's say there was a flagrantly racist story section that was changed in localization to remove that part. Are you saying you'd be in this thread passionately arguing that they keep the racism in-game?

That depends. Is it racist out ignorance and cultural insensitivy or is it used to provide some sort of message and plays into the themes of the narrative? This is why context is important instead of painting everything with the same brush.
 
If we're talking about the writer of Final Fantasy X signing off on Yuna's final line to Tidus, you bet I'll still argue against the change.

......why exactly? Different words (even translated) can have different meanings in different cultures.

I do think it'd be better though if people didn't use the authorial intent excuse though since I'd say almost all the time, they're fine with changes being done if it makes it more palatable to the audience elsewhere unless it maybe just outright changes characters or story beats. It's better to just say you don't like that you're not getting the same product with the only differences being it translated/localized for understanding dialogue, commands, story, similar etc.
 
In other threads, we should also stop calling clearly P2W-oriented microtransactions, DRM-related problems, always-online single player games or straight out unfinished games sold for full price "anti-consumer", it's, maybe, "not ideal" at worst, but "anti-consumer" is really a strong word. Because, really, it's peanuts compared to how anti-consumer (and anti-world) companies such as Nestle (food) or Shell (oil) actually are (both: responsible for lots of human suffering in many countries around the world, grand scale destruction of environment, pricing battles which drives their fairer rivals out of the business. I mean, really, that's anti-consumer, Activision, EA, Ubisoft etc. are saints in comparison).
Also, it makes business sense for Activison, EA, Ubisoft etc. to do so, it's well within their rights, and they make money that way so all is well actually. So in a world where Nestle or Shell are truly evil anti-consumer companies, speaking out against smaller problems like that within the realm of cosmetic DLC, characters glitching through floors and paid additional multplayer maps is a waste of time and not worth the effort.

(I actually agree that there is a semantic difference in meaning to be made between censorship and localisation change, though I think many people just use the word censorship and basically mean localisation change - which can be either really just a localisation change which happens during translation or actual censorship depending on the reasons for the change and who's responsible for it and why. I am just not sure if it is really helpful having the discussion of semantics on top of the current discussion at this point.
In Germany, as pointed out, many of the localisation changes in all sorts of media are dictated by the government yet the government itself states in law that actual censorship is outlawed. This sort of discussion for the finer meaning of wording could fill university courses. This is an entertainment-culture board about videogames, so for every small niche topics, there will be people who feel strong about it.)


____

To be more on topic, what I heavily agree with and also wrote somewhere in this thread is that the style of discussion and how personal some people on either side of the discurs can get is a bit over the top at times. Especially in these kind of threads. I admit that a certain "holier than thou" attitude highly annoys me and I really have to be careful not to get unfriendly myself. Though I personally find Robert at Zeboyd games to be one of the more reasonable and argumentative posters in this thread who uses actual arguments instead of snarky oneliners or indirect insults and I feel myself partly agreeing with a lot of his points while still disagreeing on others (see #1332). Which is fine and an actually can make an enjoyable discussion.
 
That's not actually true. I haven't calculated the total recently, but our best-selling game to date is Cthulhu Saves the World which is under 1 million and over 500k. Also, all of those sales were made at dirt cheap prices ($3 and under). Hoping our next game breaks our record. :)



Which was one of my main points in the first place. This isn't some outside force swooping in and preventing access to human rights information. This is the owner of a game changing it in different regions to try to make it more appealing to the target marketplace and hopefully make it more profitable. Now, there's certainly an argument that can be made that the changes they're making are misguided, lack consistency, or may even backfire, but the idea that the publisher of a work shouldn't be allowed to do what they want with their game to try to make it more successful isn't a stance I'm willing to take.

I'm pro-developer & publisher rights (which for your typical indie team are the same entity). I've always treated game development as both art and business because if you only treat game development as art, you usually go out of business and don't get to make any more art. And in this specific instance, with Nintendo's edits to TMS, their attempts to make the game more enticing works on me - I wouldn't buy the Hot Springs DLC if it was offered and I think the costume changes they've made for the most part are an improvement over the Japanese versions. I would have bought the game with no such edits, but I'm not going to get mad when I like the changes for the most part.

Again your incredibly narrow view of censorship doesn't actually mean anything. What you describe is localization but censorship is one of the tools being used to supposedly make it appealing to the region. Why is this so hard to understand?
 
Can this thread not devolve into another generic fight over the semantics of the words censorship & localization? At least a half dozen locked thread have proven that nobody is going to change anybodies mind on the matter and it just derails the focus this thread has had on the actual changes made in this game.
 
"Basically everywhere"
*provides no concrete examples*
Right then, thanks for your contribution. Continue getting fired up over creators adjusting their work as they see fit.

I don't care enough to look up old examples, but it was very common in the Fire Emblem threads back in the day. Basically, imagine the argumentation now except with a lot more posters, the thread being more busy, and thus, this one conversation about 'What is censorship?' going on for pages instead of actually focusing on the changes being made in of themselves. I know other posters (probably even mods) have seen those threads, so they can chime in if they want (or disagree if they think it's not the case?). Personally, I'd rather us not again have this argument go on for pages instead of focusing on the changes being made to #FE.
 
Wait, what? Unless the writer's change is in line with what you want, it's not okay?
Tell me again please how this isn't about ethics in panty zippers.

It's more like there are levels to changes as well as the intent behind them. Name changes are usually whatever as they affect very little unless they're changing the entire setting, which can be harder to defend depending on the situation. Something like Ronald Mcdonald being changed to Donald Mcdonald because it's apparently hard for Japanese people to pronounce Ronald is a situation that makes perfect sense. Conforming to the sensitivities of another culture though? That can range from annoying to downright insulting.

For another light example, there's the Star Ocean V controversy. On an individual level, no sane person should give a shit that some panties were made a bit wider (which of course had the opposite effect by making them more prominent). What people are rightfully upset over is the prospect of a release in one region being affected by another's, possibly setting a nasty precedent. It's the kind of cultural imperialism that the most recent GG victim, Allison Rapp argued against.


......why exactly? Different words (even translated) can have different meanings in different cultures.

Oh boy, you really want to get into this here? Alright then.

Yuna's final line to Tidus in the Japanese version is "thank you". Nice and succinct and fully representative of letting the guy go by not saying what she really feels, further made clear by her not even looking at the guy as he jumps into the abyss. In the localized version, she says "I love you". It completely changes the meaning and is at odds with the themes of leaving behind the world of death that Spira came to represent. It just doesn't work as well IMO.
 
Again your incredibly narrow view of censorship doesn't actually mean anything. What you describe is localization but censorship is one of the tools being used to supposedly make it appealing to the region. Why is this so hard to understand?

Ok, again, let's just for the sake of argument agree that this is bonafide censorship. Why does that automatically make it egregious? I'm not ever trying to be disingenuous by not calling a spade a spade. I personally don't care if we call something censorship or not. But I feel like people are always trying to push for it because there seems to be this understanding that if we establish that something is being censored then by Internet Debate 101 rules we've established that that's bad. You know where else censorship occurred!? Nazi Germany! I rest my case.
 
That's not actually true. I haven't calculated the total recently, but our best-selling game to date is Cthulhu Saves the World which is under 1 million and over 500k. Also, all of those sales were made at dirt cheap prices ($3 and under). Hoping our next game breaks our record. :)

Ah, remembered the Steamspy numbers at 1 million for one of them, but I checked and I was wrong. Ah well, good luck either way.
 
I mean, there's still supposed to be an amazing game behind this. I won't boycott the game but at this rate I don't know if I trust Nintendo not to make the games they publish cut or edited in strange, inconsistent places purely because of the two Fire Emblem IP games this year. Fates was still a great game, and this will be too, but at this rate...

Yes I wanted to have the extra Japanese interactions with Camilla, so it's no slippery slope, it's real sometimes with Nintendo's Western subsidiaries, and I don't want them to get stricter. It'll definitely be a point against me buying Nintendo hardware in the future if they remove content I care about, as they very well could.
 
Yeah, the issue isn't calling this censorship. The issue is pointing at people who agree with it (or who are at least just not offended by it) and going "YOU'RE PRO CENSORSHIP!" like they're some kind of fascist.
 
Words have both denotational and connotational meanings. The denotational meaning of censorship might be something like "official suppression of objectionable portions of a book, artwork, communication, etc." The connotation, as the word is being used here, is "bad."

When Steve says "I don't think this is censorship because it's not like governments censoring dissent" he's not engaging in whataboutism, he's disagreeing with the connotation that this is bad. When people get mad at him for saying "localization" instead of "censorship," they're not arguing that these changes weren't made to adapt this game to the US market, they're arguing that this is bad.

It's not complicated. When people disagree with you saying "censorship" they're disagreeing with your implied connotation of this being bad. If you don't want to argue semantics, just find another way to argue that this is bad without restricting yourself to arguing about the word "censorship." Plenty of people have already done that in this thread.

Again, my point as above that Steve said he didn't get, is this is a very, VERY self-serving attitude to take on the word censorship.

"Well, I don't think THIS censorship is as bad as others and since censorship in those instances are considered bad I don't want to feel bad about being for this particular censorship so please let's use another word for it."

It's an incredibly slippery slope and only became an argument of semantics because people on the board who are for censorship in particular instances didn't want to feel bad about it so they started calling out anyone that used the word censorship Again, its an asinine argument, people need to stop getting offended when the word censorship is used, its your own personal baggage at play.
 
Again, my point as above that Steve said he didn't get, is this is a very, VERY self-serving attitude to take on the word censorship.

"Well, I don't think THIS censorship is as bad as others and since censorship in those instances are considered bad I don't want to feel bad about being for this particular censorship so please let's use another word for it."

It's an incredibly slippery slope and only became an argument of semantics because people on the board who are for censorship in particular instances didn't want to feel bad about it so they started calling out anyone that used the word censorship Again, its an asinine argument, people need to stop getting offended when the word censorship is used, its your own personal baggage at play.

I don't know that I've ever taken a stand against the word censorship. I tend to favor "localization," but I have actually in the past noted that I'm also fine with "censorship" as I don't think all censorship is inherently bad. That's what I'm confused about. I actually find this particular semantic debate to be a particularly uninteresting distraction, as most arguments of semantics are.

Edit: and when I say I'm puzzled by your post, I just don't understand why you're calling me out for taking a stand against the word when I said in that very post I was fine with using the word.
 
On one hand you have people claiming those that are pro changes that they are like fascists or nazi's on the other hand you have people in this thread also claiming people not happy with the changes are degenerates.

I understand when changes may be necessary so I'm not a "Absolutely no changes from source material sort of person". The removal of the "risque swimsuit" from Fire Emblem made total sense. It was a micro bikini with underboob cleavage. It's not something that belongs in a Fire Emblem game. Even if micro bikinis and underboob are my fetish. It belongs in a M rated game. Now I was disappointed that they didn't at least modify or include some of the swimsuits. It's awkward as fuck to just have "towel" selectable in one equippable category and for your character to still enter Hot Springs when the other gender is taking a bath.

I'm not in favor of the changes in this game. The context of the game is about the idol industry, none of the pre-change materials seems to have warranted anything higher than a T for teen, and the system and game themselves have a very niche audience to begin with. I also don't understand where they got the money to change all this stuff. It isn't cheap to change this amount of stuff for a localizing team.

Imagine a SMT game that removed Judeo-Christian references for the sake of "localizing".
 
Ok, again, let's just for the sake of argument agree that this is bonafide censorship. Why does that automatically make it egregious? I'm not ever trying to be disingenuous by not calling a spade a spade. I personally don't care if we call something censorship or not. But I feel like people are always trying to push for it because there seems to be this understanding that if we establish that something is being censored then by Internet Debate 101 rules we've established that that's bad. You know where else censorship occurred!? Nazi Germany! I rest my case.

When did I ever say it made it automatically egregious? I've never said all instances are bad and on a couple of occasions I've expressed understanding or indifference to certain alterations.
 
I don't know that I've ever taken a stand against the word censorship. I tend to favor "localization," but I have actually in the past noted that I'm also fine with "censorship" as I don't think all censorship is inherently bad. That's what I'm confused about. I actually find this particular semantic debate to be a particularly uninteresting distraction, as most arguments of semantics are.
Yeah, we can argue whether or not it's a good thing (and incidentally, even government censorship may not be inherently bad if it's, say, silencing a voice deliberately and knowingly spreading false information to spark unwarranted outrage, which is where slander laws come into play) but it feels odd and kind of frustrating to suddenly see people arguing that the word censorship is actively wrong as if it can only mean one thing ever. Seems pedantic at best, an attempt to undermine discussion at worst.
 
When did I ever say it made it automatically egregious? I've never said all instances are bad and on a couple of occasions I've expressed understanding or indifference to certain alterations.

If they don't have different connotations, then I don't understand the rhetorical significance of trying to back someone into a corner to admit that localization is censorship. Why not just know in your heart of hearts that they're often synonymous and call it a day?
 
If they don't have different connotations, then I don't understand the rhetorical significance of trying to back someone into a corner to admit that localization is censorship. Why not just know in your heart of hearts that they're often synonymous and call it a day?

As shown above, you could make a very similar argument for microtransactions and anti-consumerism.

I feel like this is turning a semantics argument (which I'm sure is the intent of some parties).
 
If they don't have different connotations, then I don't understand the rhetorical significance of trying to back someone into a corner to admit that localization is censorship. Why not just know in your heart of hearts that they're often synonymous and call it a day?

one last time: The localization process includes all kinds of activities. Censorship is frequently one of the many steps involved in that process.That is how it's been in every project I've worked on. They are not, and never will be, synonyms.
 
I don't know that I've ever taken a stand against the word censorship. I tend to favor "localization," but I have actually in the past noted that I'm also fine with "censorship" as I don't think all censorship is inherently bad. That's what I'm confused about. I actually find this particular semantic debate to be a particularly uninteresting distraction, as most arguments of semantics are.

Edit: and when I say I'm puzzled by your post, I just don't understand why you're calling me out for taking a stand against the word when I said in that very post I was fine with using the word.

Because of this here...

I'm going to be straight here. I'm honestly tired of the word censorship being tossed around as though it automatically adds gravitas to the situation. There's this belief that censorship is inherently bad and I think it makes some of these conversations tiring.

If they don't have different connotations, then I don't understand the rhetorical significance of trying to back someone into a corner to admit that localization is censorship. Why not just know in your heart of hearts that they're often synonymous and call it a day?

And I think i see where the disconnect here is. See this debate about the word started when there was an influx of people that were fine with the changes in FE Fates started trying to literally censor people using the word censorship and trying to "correct" people to use the word localization. Here, and just above you by Cyan, you are doing the same thing in a backhanded way. This wouldn't be a constant argument that comes up if those that don't like the idea of being for censorship or it makes them uncomfortable would stop trying to argue the word. It really comes off, no matter how people want to define it, as personal baggage for the word. I guess the point is being pro-censorship makes you uncomfortable enough to want others to use a different word or feel like its being used in an egregious manner than maybe it deserves some looking into by that party to why it makes them feel that way.
 
The fervor and, at times vitriol, say otherwise - even if not explictly stated. Look at all the hyperbole that gets used whenever the topic comes up, including this very thread. Especially when the echo chamber effect starts and people amplify things and start immediately replying extremely negatively to anyone with any semblance of dissenting opinion.

And that's bad when it happens. People shouldn't be jumped on for holding opinions provided said opinions aren't presented in an abrasive way. That doesn't mean I don't understand why people feel that way when it's become a big annoyance in recent times which has unfortunately had people adopting an "us vs them" attitude on both sides.
 
Because of this here...

And I think i see where the disconnect here is. See this debate about the word started when there was an influx of people that were fine with the changes in FE Fates started trying to literally censor people using the word censorship and trying to "correct" people to use the word localization. Here, and just above you by Cyan, you are doing the same thing in a backhanded way. This wouldn't be a constant argument that comes up if those that don't like the idea of being for censorship or it makes them uncomfortable would stop trying to argue the word. It really comes off, no matter how people want to define it, as personal baggage for the word. I guess the point is being pro-censorship makes you uncomfortable enough to want others to use a different word or feel like its being used in an egregious manner than maybe it deserves some looking into by that party to why it makes them feel that way.

My intent is not to get people to stop using the word and instead to deter the word from being tossed around as an automatic argument winner. Even in that first post you quoted, I'm not saying "woah hold on there let's be careful before tossing out the C-word." I'm saying it's not the automatic path to victory by establishing how severe the stakes are. "Why is it bad?" "Because it's censorship."
 
My intent is not to get people to stop using the word and instead to stop deter the word from being tossed around as an automatic argument winner. Even in that first post you quoted, I'm not saying "woah hold on there let's be careful before tossing out the C-word." I'm saying it's not the automatic path to victory by establishing how severe the stakes are. "Why is it bad?" "Because it's censorship."

The thing is those of us on the "against" side of the issue weren't really doing that. Maybe a couple us and in some other threads sure were but here it's the people that are in favor of using localization because they feel uncomfortable acknowledging it as censorship that are making that leap.
 
Really thinking of not getting a Nintendo NX because of this stuff, why give Nintendo a chance to piss me off more with shit like this? I have a huge backlog on my PS4, Xbone and PC I don't /need/ to get a NX, I just like some Nintendo games, but all these changes in games I want to play really just end up being more trouble than they're worth.

Bravely Default
Bravely Second
Fatal Frame Maiden of Black Water
Fire Emblem Awakening
Fire Emblem Fates
Xenoblade X

and before you call the Bravely games out for being Square Enix, you know if they were on the Vita or even PS3/PS4 they wouldn't have done most of the stupid changes they had to do because of being on a "Nintendo console"

Nintendo has some great franchises and they know how to make fun games, but they need to understand we are in the internet age, people now know what changes are being made to games when brought over here and they don't like it.
 
Words have both denotational and connotational meanings. The denotational meaning of censorship might be something like "official suppression of objectionable portions of a book, artwork, communication, etc." The connotation, as the word is being used here, is "bad."

When Steve says "I don't think this is censorship because it's not like governments censoring dissent" he's not engaging in whataboutism, he's disagreeing with the connotation that this is bad. When people get mad at him for saying "localization" instead of "censorship," they're not arguing that these changes weren't made to adapt this game to the US market, they're arguing that this is bad.

It's not complicated. When people disagree with you saying "censorship" they're disagreeing with your implied connotation of this being bad. If you don't want to argue semantics, just find another way to argue that this is bad without restricting yourself to arguing about the word "censorship." Plenty of people have already done that in this thread.
Then I'd have to ask, what makes the censorship in #FE's case "good"? From what we've seen, the content edits have included the removal of more mature content, relevant to the themes of the game.

A dungeon based around a character's sexuality was changed to be about generic modeling. Coming to terms with one's sexuality is a thing people within the age demographic of this game have to deal with. As evidenced by other games dealing with similar content getting a T rating, its inclusion wouldn't have raised the age rating.

They partially removed Tsubasa's bikini, as it can't be used during gameplay but it still appears when a certain special attack is used. As it's still in the game, its inclusion evidently has no effect on the game's age rating.

A character was shifted from laying on a couch to sitting on it. This was probably changed to prevent the character from looking submissive and defenseless. Unfortunately, it makes it look like she's performing a sex act on another character. The edit is inconsequential, and honestly serves no real purpose.

A demon character has black flames superimposed over her over her breasts during an animated cutscene, obviously meant to cover up the cleavage. However, during regular gameplay, the flames are gone, and her cleavage is clearly visible. Evidently, her cleavage being visible would've had no effect on the age rating.

During an animated cutscene, Tsubasa's pelvic bones are erased, and her cleavage covered by a white tanktop. This was probably done to reduce the sexual aspects of Tsubasa's character design. However, there's a second Tsubasa in the cutscene with very obvious, prominent cleavage. As such, the editing in this scene is inconsistent, and likely would've had no effect on the age rating.

From all of the things that were changed, my issue is they come off as highly unnecessary, inconsistent, and have far too much effort put into them for a result that achieves pretty much nothing. I don't see how these could be considered "good" changes. They're dulling the consequences of the narrative, they're changing imagery in one scene and leaving it in another, and they're making their own censorship null in the same scene an edit appears.

From what I've seen, these are all very poor changes, and actively bring down the quality of the product. If somebody can rationalize those as positives, then more power to them.
 
I wonder if in fact these changes weren't made after-the-fact when it came to the Japanese release bombing, but rather that the process was underway well before that release and that after that is when Ninty just said "Fuck it, we're not gonna bother" and that's why it's half-assed and weird.
 
I wonder if in fact these changes weren't made after-the-fact when it came to the Japanese release bombing, but rather that the process was underway well before that release and that after that is when Ninty just said "Fuck it, we're not gonna bother" and that's why it's half-assed and weird.

I don't know about that, but I have been wondering how much of these changes were just done in development, how much was done before Atlus even became the localizer (Treehouse was discussing it themselves even last year right?), and why changes just seem inconsistent in plenty of places? If the dialogue was changed in development, that indicates they always figured it wasn't going to get dubbed here.
 
I don't know about that, but I have been wondering how much of these changes were just done in development, how much was done before Atlus even became the localizer (Treehouse was discussing it themselves even last year right?), and why changes just seem inconsistent in plenty of places? If the dialogue was changed in development, that indicates they always figured it wasn't going to get dubbed here.

Yeah, it's really curious. Like was said earlier in this thread, I really want a post-mortem for this game.
 
Maybe Nintendo believes there is some non-existent demographic of teen girls that own a Wii U that will buy this game because of the pop stars, colorful game cover, and girls front center with cute boys.
 
I'm kinda curious how you let people know it's subbed too. Like does a parent or someone who like Fire Emblem buy the game, play it, and then go 'Why isn't this in English? How do I change this option?' or is there something on the game case that lets people know about that? If not, there may be a fair amount of people who'd want to return the game when they realize there's not an English option.
 
I'm kinda curious how you let people know it's subbed too. Like does a parent or someone who like Fire Emblem buy the game, play it, and then go 'Why isn't this in English? How do I change this option?' or is there something on the game case that lets people know about that? If not, there may be a fair amount of people who'd want to return the game when they realize there's not an English option.

Not sure about this game, but on the back of Nights of Azure's case it says the game only has Japanese voices. Most of the other games I have that aren't dubbed don't state that, though.
 
Then I'd have to ask, what makes the censorship in #FE's case "good"? From what we've seen, the content edits have included the removal of more mature content, relevant to the themes of the game.

A dungeon based around a character's sexuality was changed to be about generic modeling. Coming to terms with one's sexuality is a thing people within the age demographic of this game have to deal with. As evidenced by other games dealing with similar content getting a T rating, its inclusion wouldn't have raised the age rating.

My reading of the summary of this dungeon is that there is a possessed photographer taking photos of idols. This particular dungeon is themed around photography, while other dungeons are themed around other entertainment-oriented things.

Please explain how the original is specifically about a character coming to terms with their sexuality (that sounds more like Persona 4), and how the new version will *not* accomplish this same fact when a bunch of the pictures are not swim suits.

I'm not saying you're wrong. But what I've read so far is very vague, so I'm looking for details.
 
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