Support NeoGAF

[Yasumi]

My reading of the summary of this dungeon is that there is a possessed photographer taking photos of idols. This particular dungeon is themed around photography, while other dungeons are themed around other entertainment-oriented things.

Please explain how the original is specifically about a character coming to terms with their sexuality (that sounds more like Persona 4), and how the new version will *not* accomplish this same fact when a bunch of the pictures are not swim suits.

I'm not saying you're wrong. But what I've read so far is very vague, so I'm looking for details.

I meant more overall, not the specific theme of the dungeon. It is based on the photographer, but aspects of Tsubasa's sexuality (and the gravure industry in general) factor heavily into it. That's kind of the whole point of the bikini scene.

 

[thumb]

I meant more overall, not the specific theme of the dungeon. It is based on the photographer, but aspects of Tsubasa's sexuality (and the gravure industry in general) factor heavily into it. That's kind of the whole point of the bikini scene.

Feel free to put more details in spoiler tags if you need to. But from what I can tell this is not a "scene". There are a bunch of pictures all over the walls of the dungeon in general. Because that's what this photographer does: take pictures of idols. I want to know the details of how Tsubasa's sexuality was addressed in the Japanese version, and how it is addressed now (if at all).

 

[Kaiterra]

Maybe Nintendo believes there is some non-existent demographic of teen girls that own a Wii U that will buy this game because of the pop stars, colorful game cover, and girls front center with cute boys.

Might as well go for it after the hardcore otaku audience didn't show up in Japan, I guess?

 

[Phu]

Well Xenoblade X didn't dance around the subject of religion, given that there's a church and that it had several sidequests where one's faith drove them to murder. So it's not like Nintendo is averse to talking about it.

iirc, the game didn't refer to any specific religion, did it? [correct me if I'm wrong] I recall things being more like religion or no religion, or our god is right, or my god said to do this. I do remember the quest you're talking about but I don't remember anything that would tie it to a specific religion. I know some races didn't have religion, or believed in a different religion, so it seemed like a matter of belief and what people generally believed in.

SMT has actual Lucifer and he's not technically a bad guy.

And then there was that thing not too long ago where The Binding of Isaac got rejected by Nintendo [due to its religious content] and it was only because of sheer persistence and the help from a few supportive Nintendo employees that it was eventually able to come to N3DS. Again, I think this is because it directly references a specific real-world religion.

But again, Nintendo is so scattershot anyway, I don't know if I could consider anything a guarantee, even if they were on a good streak. [But I think they are conscious of the community of gamers who take their religion very seriously]

But maybe we're getting way too off topic, since this is all about a hypothetical game and not the actual game that exists.

 

[Zolo]

lol. Despite everything else, I see Atlus is putting in the work with the dialogue.

 

[Yasumi]

Feel free to put more details in spoiler tags if you need to. But from what I can tell this is not a "scene". There are a bunch of pictures all over the walls of the dungeon in general. Because that's what this photographer does: take pictures of idols. I want to know the details of how Tsubasa's sexuality was addressed in the Japanese version, and how it is addressed now (if at all).

I only know bits and pieces, but iirc

Spoiler

Tsubasa was a gravure idol when she was younger, and has become insecure with the idea of that being a part of her past. Gravure idoling pretty much involves wearing little clothing and posing seductively. The photographer dude has a massive picture of Tsubasa in the background, wearing a bikini, he's obsessed with her. Over the course of the dungeon, she owns up to these aspects, and accepts herself. That inherently involves her accepting the sexual nature of her past, and learning to grow beyond her insecurities.

 

[SeanTSC]

He's done it with the Native American->cowboy change in Bravely Second, and honestly I agreed with him there as well. It's very jarring seeing Aimee in the game as she now is.

Well, sort of? While you can kinda say the design itself was racist, I don't think it was, because I'll literally take anything I can get to have some kind of representation of my culture in there. If that means Sexy Native Girl, then so be it, just give it to me. However, the change from a Native American to a Cowboy was As Racist As You Can Possibly Be and extremely Tone Deaf. Just, yeah. I'm not going to be able to let that go.

 

[Palculator]

lol. Despite everything else, I see Atlus is putting in the work with the dialogue.

Yup, saw this yesterday and it just made me think how this is one of the weirdest localisations I've ever seen, rife with censorship on one side but fully faithful regarding things where a simple change would be natural.

 

[KirbYuuYuu]

lol. Despite everything else, I see Atlus is putting in the work with the dialogue.

This is kill me tier.

 

[NeonZ]

Feel free to put more details in spoiler tags if you need to. But from what I can tell this is not a "scene". There are a bunch of pictures all over the walls of the dungeon in general. Because that's what this photographer does: take pictures of idols. I want to know the details of how Tsubasa's sexuality was addressed in the Japanese version, and how it is addressed now (if at all).

I only know bits and pieces, but iirc

Spoiler

Tsubasa was a gravure idol when she was younger, and has become insecure with the idea of that being a part of her past. Gravure idoling pretty much involves wearing little clothing and posing seductively. The photographer dude has a massive picture of Tsubasa in the background, wearing a bikini, he's obsessed with her. Over the course of the dungeon, she owns up to these aspects, and accepts herself. That inherently involves her accepting the sexual nature of her past, and learning to grow beyond her insecurities.

Specifically, when she confronts the photographer in the original version, she

Spoiler

actually wears a bikini and tries to keep her composure while he photographs her in an obviously lecherous scenario. In the localized version, that bikini scene is replaced by her posing with a new modeling outfit that's meant to represent a girl who doesn't fear showing her love, with all the dialogue in the scene rewritten and rerecorded to match the new scenario.

 

[thumb]

I only know bits and pieces, but iirc

Spoiler

Tsubasa was a gravure idol when she was younger, and has become insecure with the idea of that being a part of her past. Gravure idoling pretty much involves wearing little clothing and posing seductively. The photographer dude has a massive picture of Tsubasa in the background, wearing a bikini, he's obsessed with her. Over the course of the dungeon, she owns up to these aspects, and accepts herself. That inherently involves her accepting the sexual nature of her past, and learning to grow beyond her insecurities.

This is different, to my mind, than just outfit changes and such. There's a lot going on here, and I'll need to play these scenes in the localized version to have an opinion on what's being communicated differently.

I think the problem is that no one has explained to me what the replacement is--in the Japanese version, she did a, and has revelation b. Now she does *something*, presumably, and decides *something*, but...what?

Edit - Answered above. Though still vague for someone who hasn't played the game. Showing her love? And why is she confronting him in a bikini in the original? I do have this game on order, so I'm sure some of this will make more sense when I play it.

 

[LordGorchnik]

The fervor and, at times vitriol, say otherwise - even if not explictly stated. Look at all the hyperbole that gets used whenever the topic comes up, including this very thread. Especially when the echo chamber effect starts and people amplify things and start immediately replying extremely negatively to anyone with any semblance of dissenting opinion.

This is true but the same could be said for both sides of the vitriol. All too often I see people throwing out the words pedophile and other derogatory remarks when there usually isn't even any discussion about said activities.

 

[kiryogi]

Actual scenario in Japanese version:

Spoiler

So often times, kinda of like a villain of the week, our photographer gets possessed by a bad mirage (Gangrel in this case). Now this photographer is actually a prolific and famous photographer. And he's worked with Maiko before infact. (Maiko was a former Gravure idol) How this chapter starts off is that Maiko tells Tsubasa her next gig is a Gravure shoot. Tsubasa, of course thinks no way, that's too embarrassing! But since the photographer has gone bad, he ends up kidnapping Maiko and some other idols during a shoot. Ultimately, as the crew moves forward to go and rescue the ladies,they dig up history on Maiko when she was a Gravure idol, and through that, Tsubasa finds the courage to overcome her shame and participate in the shoot. With which, that Tsubasa's modeling is so amazing, that it snaps the photographer out of his possession.

Yasumi's summary is a bit off there.

 

[NeonZ]

Edit - Answered above. Though still vague for someone who hasn't played the game. Showing her love? And why is she confronting him in a bikini in the original? I do have this game on order, so I'm sure some of this will make more sense when I play it.

The point, in either version is to prove that she's a professional to the possessed photographer, breaking his ties to the mirage that controlled him. In the original version she shows it by being able to take a modeling session in a bikini, something that's build up through the overall theme of the dungeon, while in the localized version the "girl in love" bit is just a random "performance" that she prepared to show how she's a professional, somehow.

 

[Shun]

Actual scenario in Japanese version:

Spoiler

So often times, kinda of like a villain of the week, our photographer gets possessed by a bad mirage (Gangrel in this case). Now this photographer is actually a prolific and famous photographer. And he's worked with Maiko before infact. (Maiko was a former Gravure idol) How this chapter starts off is that Maiko tells Tsubasa her next gig is a Gravure shoot. Tsubasa, of course thinks no way, that's too embarrassing! But since the photographer has gone bad, he ends up kidnapping Maiko and some other idols during a shoot. Ultimately, as the crew moves forward to go and rescue the ladies,they dig up history on Maiko when she was a Gravure idol, and through that, Tsubasa finds the courage to overcome her shame and participate in the shoot. With which, that Tsubasa's modeling is so amazing, that it snaps the photographer out of his possession.

Yasumi's summary is a bit off there.

For the most part this is correct.

Some of us wish the scenario was as dark as what Yasumi described. There was a lot of potential for scandals to be a part of the storyline.

But I don't think it is a negative or a con that they didn't add those and focused on making the story a positive and coming of age story where you root for a character's success and development throughout their career.

 

[thumb]

Actual scenario in Japanese version:

Spoiler

So often times, kinda of like a villain of the week, our photographer gets possessed by a bad mirage (Gangrel in this case). Now this photographer is actually a prolific and famous photographer. And he's worked with Maiko before infact. (Maiko was a former Gravure idol) How this chapter starts off is that Maiko tells Tsubasa her next gig is a Gravure shoot. Tsubasa, of course thinks no way, that's too embarrassing! But since the photographer has gone bad, he ends up kidnapping Maiko and some other idols during a shoot. Ultimately, as the crew moves forward to go and rescue the ladies,they dig up history on Maiko when she was a Gravure idol, and through that, Tsubasa finds the courage to overcome her shame and participate in the shoot. With which, that Tsubasa's modeling is so amazing, that it snaps the photographer out of his possession.

Yasumi's summary is a bit off there.

So, to be clear, Tsubasa is not "confronting her past" or coming to terms with her sexuality. She's just getting the courage to wear a bikini for a photo shot. Am I understanding that part right?

 

[Yasumi]

For the most part this is correct.

Some of us wish the scenario was as dark as what Yasumi described. There was a lot of potential for scandals to be a part of the storyline.

But I don't think it is a negative or a con that they didn't add those and focused on making the story a positive and coming of age story where you root for a character's success and development throughout their career.

Huh, guess that summary I read was wrong. I kind of would've preferred that.

 

[SeanTSC]

Ok. Sure. You're well within your rights to dislike the changes. But this notion that if you say "I like these changes and am glad they're making them as it makes the product more appealing to me" then you're bad and/or wrong is absurd. Ultimately, we can vote with our wallets, but we aren't the ones making these calls. They're business decisions.

"You're only for this because it suits your agenda!"

Well, no. They could add more fanservice and though I'd be even less inclined to buy the game, I wouldn't consider it some unforgivable trespass against authorial intent. It's their game. It's their call how to localize it.

Well, yeah I think it's going a bit too personal-attacky far with the "suits your agenda" stuff and the "unprofessional" line you mentioned before. I'm not agreeing with any of that and I would not say something like that.

But I think it's unfair to kind hand-wave this kind of censorship away as "just business" and marketing. Anyone, in any place, censoring story/themes and saying that they are "inappropriate" for someone based on their Language/Region/Ethnicity but okay for someone in Japan is something that I personally find to be a dangerous practice and something that I feel we should be outspoken about. Using "hey it's marketing!" to be dismissive is unfair to people who are concerned.

One of the Nintendo responses to the FE Fates changes actually used inappropriate and implied that it was okay for Japan, but not okay if you're American. These changes have agitated me more and more ever since then. It makes me feel like they're treating me like a second class citizen and looking down on me like a child.

And since you're both responding to the same post:

I'm not sure if you've thought your last sentence through. Let's say there was a flagrantly racist story section that was changed in localization to remove that part. Are you saying you'd be in this thread passionately arguing that they keep the racism in-game?

Here's another scenario: the creative director states that he/she considers both versions of the stories legitimate and thinks they both reflect his/her vision in different ways. Would you still be arguing against the changes?

Yes, I would argue that if it was part of the story. Just because something is stupid and racist doesn't mean that we should just erase it because it might offend us. Racism can also be an effective narrative tool and there's plenty of works that use it.

Plus there's stuff like the Native American change in Bravely Second. Some people found it existing at all to be a racist thing. As someone who is a part of that culture I personally did not find it racist at all and was looking forward to it. It was nice that there was some tiny bit of inclusiveness, even if it was a sexualized outfit. Something being sexualized doesn't make it racist. Changing it to a Cowboy on the other hand is extremely racist, tone deaf, and a ridiculous reaction that I can only assume was done out of some completely irrational fear.

And if a creative director with a history similar to that of Nintendo's recent history with localization said that then I wouldn't believe them and would likely just think that they're full of shit.

 

[Zolo]

Huh, guess that summary I read was wrong. I kind of would've preferred that.

I'm not THAT familiar with it myself, but it's why I said part of the problem also actually did seem like the story segment.

Spoiler

It's easy to see people interpreting the story of how Tsubasa should just get over her reservations and show off her body to the public giving in to her superior's demands.

 

[SeanTSC]

Of course they wouldn't - it would be all about "agendas" and "pressure" and "PC culture".
Just admit you want your panty zippers and boob cams kept intact and call it a day.

Unfair. I have never once called on someone here as "having an agenda" and I have not invoked "pressure" or "PC Culture" either. My issues are with Nintendo and no one else. Please don't unfairly put words in my mouth that I have not used nor supported.

 

[ShinRPGamer]

iirc, the game didn't refer to any specific religion, did it? [correct me if I'm wrong] I recall things being more like religion or no religion, or our god is right, or my god said to do this. I do remember the quest you're talking about but I don't remember anything that would tie it to a specific religion. I know some races didn't have religion, or believed in a different religion, so it seemed like a matter of belief and what people generally believed in.

You are right about them not mentioning a specific religion. Xenoblade X's handling of religion is more general and doesn't target a certain religion.

And then there was that thing not too long ago where The Binding of Isaac got rejected by Nintendo [due to its religious content] and it was only because of sheer persistence and the help from a few supportive Nintendo employees that it was eventually able to come to N3DS. Again, I think this is because it directly references a specific real-world religion.

I wasn't aware of this actually. Guess that's a good reason to think Nintendo is generally averse to mentioning religion in their games.

But again, Nintendo is so scattershot anyway, I don't know if I could consider anything a guarantee, even if they were on a good streak. [But I think they are conscious of the community of gamers who take their religion very seriously]

They've never been consistent that's for sure. They're fine with the discussion of religion in Xenoblade X but as you stated, The Binding of Isaac initially got rejected by Nintendo due to religious content.

 

[Shun]

So, to be clear, Tsubasa is not "confronting her past" or coming to terms with her sexuality. She's just getting the courage to wear a bikini for a photo shot. Am I understanding that part right?

The whole scenario is a maturity thing because she's doing it for a soda advertisement as a job before he single debut.

This is before she sings her image song "Feel".

The antagonist's whole being possessed is because of his inability to be satisfied with any of his new photos and works ever since his most famous photoshoot that really jumpstarted his career with a certain character.

Tsubasa has a confronting her past scenario and coming to terms part, but it's not here.

This is mostly her development coming as a novice and not really understanding what it takes to be an idol (Tsubasa is one of two or so characters who explicitly wants to be an idol, the rest have their own ambitions such as acting, stunt work, singing, etc. Not wanting to fall under the idol stereotype and archetype).

Tsubasa isn't pressured, she internally knows that she will do it and that it's a step in the direction she wants to take. She's just apprehensive until she finds solace and someone who she can relate to later in the scenario.

I'm not gonna go further because there are spoilers but the entire scenario is pretty clean and it focuses on her development and maturity as a character. We see more facets to Tsubasa later as she confronts her guilt in the past as she becomes more successful.

The story itself is a very coming of age story and most of the outrage and assumptions that the scenario's meaning is lost, is because we don't really know what exactly they are going to change the gravure to.

I'm not going to make a huge fuss about it until I have a copy in my hands and legitimately compare the Japanese and English versions as someone who has played the Japanese version and has first hand experience what the original scenario is.

I wish Nintendo could send me a review copy so that I can speed run the game and completely clear up and detail any and all changes, but that's obviously not going to happen until the game releases in June.

Again to go off the Tsubasa part and prevent people from speculating and complaining about her being FORCED into taking photos for swimsuits. A lot of entertainers take different facets to go and jumpstart and let themselves be known so that they can further their career in what they do.

Shinozaki Ai is a very famous gravure model who used that career and job opportunity to jumpstart he successful singing career. She CHOSE to do it. Tsubasa's case is similar.

I don't want the scenario being interpreted wrong or twisted around.

You'll get to see different sides to Tsubasa because she's the most dynamic character in the cast aside from Kiria. Tsubasa has the most growth and development in the game and it's one of the high and key points of why it makes the story and game work and why it's good.

 

[Zolo]

Feeling like you need to do gravure in order to get further in your career is a way of feeling/being 'pressured'.

 

[Shun]

Feeling like you need to do gravure in order to get further in your career is a way of feeling/being 'pressured'.

Then blame the industry for that rather than the individual.

Here are other examples of entertainers who have gone through gravure to further their career.

Jessica Alba.

Channing Tatum.

Plenty of Korean stars like Girls Generation.

If we include fashion shoots outside of swimwear the list goes on and on.

When you start out in an industry you find ways to make yourself known and go from there.

Not everyone can start as an actor or a singer and create a successful career in that avenue.

I'm providing a summary as to what happens in the game, not an argument as to the morality of swimwear photo shoots.

 

[MrSaturn99]

May as well try again since things seem to have (mostly) calmed down and not be a super defensive echo chamber. Thanks Xia.

I gotta say, all this controversy is actually making want to play the game upon launch. I'm a Nintendo collector so I was going to get it anyway, but maybe I can make some time...?

At this point, I'm kinda interested in all the localization changes simply from wondering how many changes there are, to what degree, and why what was changed was considered worth changing. It's basically like looking at 4kids comparisons 10 years ago to see images of japanese text removed from signs and book covers wondering why it was changed. Fire Emblem: Fates and Xenoblade in comparison seemed to have pretty good consistency in what was changed compared to #FE so far.

I know what you're getting at here but I find it concerning that the comparisons between NOA and 4Kids are steadily becoming a thing among the former's critics. I don't think they recall the full extent/context of the latter's localization practices beyond "omg censorship!!"

Not that I think you're being hyperbolic or anything but still.

 

[Zolo]

Then blame the industry for that rather than the individual.

Oh. For what it's worth, I am. It's partly why I'm disappointed since there seems to be plenty of aspects of the entertainment industry to criticize or explore the darker areas of it which is what I'd generally expect from a Megaten game. I can also see why Nintendo would want to change the story, so as to not be seen as endorsing that side of the industry.

I know what you're getting at here but I find it concerning that the comparisons between NOA and 4Kids are steadily becoming a thing among the former's critics. I don't think they recall the full extent/context of the latter's localization practices beyond "omg censorship!!"

It was just an example because I had a tendency to do it with One Piece about 10 years ago. Obviously, that's much MORE severe with all their properties as far as changing tons of good dialogue to one-liner jokes.

I gotta say, all this controversy is actually making want to play the game upon launch. I'm a Nintendo collector so I was going to get it anyway, but maybe I can make some time...?

If you like the battle system, you should check out some other Megaten games as well!

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Well, yeah I think it's going a bit too personal-attacky far with the "suits your agenda" stuff and the "unprofessional" line you mentioned before. I'm not agreeing with any of that and I would not say something like that.

But I think it's unfair to kind hand-wave this kind of censorship away as "just business" and marketing. Anyone, in any place, censoring story/themes and saying that they are "inappropriate" for someone based on their Language/Region/Ethnicity but okay for someone in Japan is something that I personally find to be a dangerous practice and something that I feel we should be outspoken about. Using "hey it's marketing!" to be dismissive is unfair to people who are concerned.

One of the Nintendo responses to the FE Fates changes actually used inappropriate and implied that it was okay for Japan, but not okay if you're American. These changes have agitated me more and more ever since then. It makes me feel like they're treating me like a second class citizen and looking down on me like a child.

Just to be clear, I'm not telling people to get on board with these changes because it's just business. If you don't like what Nintendo is doing here, by all means make your voice heard. We may not see eye to eye on what we want from a localization, but I certainly don't have any issues with people who are against censorship.

But what started this whole thing for me was what I saw as overly childish posting. The poster bring replied to may indeed be working on another game, but he wasn't posting here as a representative of that title. To attack his professionalism over a disagreement and prettily assert a diminished interest in their game as a result of this kind of disagreement is extremely petty, particularly when the dev is a member of this forum and participating in a civil conversation in the topic.

And from there, the defense of this tactic just pivoted to how it's reasonable for these things to influence us given what a hot button issue censorship is. And that's where I downplay how important this issue is. I'm not saying that it can't be a matter of personal importance to you. But this isn't a topic of real world importance along the lines of actual, real people being the targets of racism, sexism, bigotry, or something along those lines. This is just a disagreement on the role of the regional publishing arm to localize a title for a territory and the sanctity of art an authorial intent.

I get that people can be passionate about this topic. But being passionate isn't a pass for being a jerk. And what I called out was over the line. That people are frustrated with this conversation isn't a justification for it.

 

[Negator]

I don't like the attempt to downplay how important the issue is. The issue is as big as it needs to be in the context of an enthusiast video game forum where people discuss games in depth. Just because it's not AS important as something else doesn't mean it isn't important.

If it wasn't that important we wouldn't have a 1400 post thread and a new thread every single time this happens. I'm not saying it's okay to be a jerk, but I don't really care for that particular narrative.

 

[thumb]

Yes, I would argue that if it was part of the story. Just because something is stupid and racist doesn't mean that we should just erase it because it might offend us. Racism can also be an effective narrative tool and there's plenty of works that use it.

I think this is a bit of a dodge. You're added in another clause to make it "racism that serves the story". I'm saying, imagine it doesn't serve the story. Imagine it's just the creator(s) expressing their racism. Blatantly. An entire scene devoted to it. It doesn't serve the story, it's just there because they're racist. I want to know whether, if you heard about this being changed in localization, you'd argue that they keep it in.

 

[thumb]

The whole scenario is a maturity thing because she's doing it for a soda advertisement as a job before he single debut.

This is before she sings her image song "Feel".

The antagonist's whole being possessed is because of his inability to be satisfied with any of his new photos and works ever since his most famous photoshoot that really jumpstarted his career with a certain character.

Tsubasa has a confronting her past scenario and coming to terms part, but it's not here.

This is mostly her development coming as a novice and not really understanding what it takes to be an idol (Tsubasa is one of two or so characters who explicitly wants to be an idol, the rest have their own ambitions such as acting, stunt work, singing, etc. Not wanting to fall under the idol stereotype and archetype).

Tsubasa isn't pressured, she internally knows that she will do it and that it's a step in the direction she wants to take. She's just apprehensive until she finds solace and someone who she can relate to later in the scenario.

Thank you for taking the time to explain all this. Now that I read more about it, I feel a little mislead (from others, not yourself) regarding how the changes betray the original. But as you note, we need more details about what happens in the localized version to have a strong judgement about changes in meaning.

With all that said, I've noted before that I didn't think the changes overall were necessary, but I found some of them to be a mild improvement. But if this particular change deprives a character of part of her arc, or character development, it would certainly be an exception. That is, I would be against it.

 

[MrSaturn99]

It was just an example because I had a tendency to do it with One Piece about 10 years ago. Obviously, that's much MORE severe with all their properties as far as changing tons of good dialogue to one-liner jokes.

Yeah, sorry. It's just been something that's been bothering me.

If you like the battle system, you should check out some other Megaten games as well!

Hopefully someday!

 

[SeanTSC]

I think this is a bit of a dodge. You're added in another clause to make it "racism that serves the story". I'm saying, imagine it doesn't serve the story. Imagine it's just the creator(s) expressing their racism. Blatantly. An entire scene devoted to it. It doesn't serve the story, it's just there because they're racist. I want to know whether, if you heard about this being changed in localization, you'd argue that they keep it in.

It just depends on what it is and how it serves the story. Not everything is a Black and White, Yes/No answer man. For the most part we shouldn't be rewriting stories just because the writer/producer/director put something offensive in. Imagine if we went back and rewrote all American literature that has racist shit in it, do you think that would actually be a good idea? I don't.

It's not a localization team's job to whitewash offensive material. It's their job to present it in a way that the audience understands it in their own language. That may mean changing references and jokes, but it does not mean changing the themes, scenarios, and intent.

Edit: Examples I guess. Say there's a casually racist line a character has and it's otherwise pretty inconsequential and maybe the Japanese writers didn't really mean anything by it. Is that okay to change? Sure. That's not important. But a character that is outright racist? No, you should not completely change that character to protect someone's feelings.

 

[rubenburgt]

Wow. Just wow.
I already knew Atlus USA loves to censor their games and I know Nintendo is aiming to be a more child friendlier console by censoring their games as well, but I did not knew the localisation of this game would be so terrible. What happened to you Nintendo?

Fatal Frame 5, Fire Emblem: Awakening, Fire Emblem: Fates, Xenoblade Chronicles X (Which I could luckily undo any damage through modding it) And now Tokyo Mirage as well.

Its like Nintendo doesn't even wants my money. Well one thing is certain and that is that I will not buy the NX console. I'm done with these kind of "localisations".

 

[thumb]

It just depends on what it is and how it serves the story. Not everything is a Black and White, Yes/No answer man. For the most part we shouldn't be rewriting stories just because the writer/producer/director put something offensive in. Imagine if we went back and rewrote all American literature that has racist shit in it, do you think that would actually be a good idea? I don't.

It's not a localization team's job to whitewash offensive material. It's their job to present it in a way that the audience understands it in their own language. That may mean changing references and jokes, but it does not mean changing the themes, scenarios, and intent.

Right. I'm not saying it's our job to whitewash it, or that we should rewrite literature. I'm asking you to imagine that it had already taken place, much like Tokyo Mirage Sessions, the localization is done, or nearly so. So, imagine the creator of a hypothetical video game hates East Asians. Chinese, Japanese, etc. He puts in a random scene where the protagonist encounters an East Asian who goes "ching ching bong bong!" and then bares buckteeth with big glasses. The protagonist shoots this individual, then makes a out-of-character racial slur. It develops nothing and is unconnected to the plot. It's just a racial pot shot, because the creator is deeply racist.

So, a new thread pops up. It turns out, as part of the localization, they're going to remove that scene. Do we get a fifty page thread of passionate people arguing that the "ching ching bong bong" scene gets added back? That they just can't imagine playing the game without having the opportunity to shoot "ching ching bong bong" man? That this is heinous censorship? Or do we get a couple sheepish remarks and nothing more? My guess is the latter.

 

[SeanTSC]

Right. I'm not saying it's our job to whitewash it, or that we should rewrite literature. I'm asking you to imagine that it had already taken place, much like Tokyo Mirage Sessions, the localization is done, or nearly so. So, imagine the creator of a hypothetical video game hates East Asians. Chinese, Japanese, etc. He puts in a random scene where the the protagonist encounters an East Asian who goes "ching ching bong bong!" and then bares buckteeth with big glasses. The protagonist shoots this individual, then makes a out-of-character racial slur. It develops nothing and is unconnected to the plot. It's just a racial pot shot, because the creator is deeply racist.

So, a new thread pops up. It turns out, as part of the localization, they're going to remove that scene. Do we get a fifty page thread of passionate people arguing that the "ching ching bong bong" scene gets added back? That they just can't imagine playing the game without having the opportunity to shoot "ching ching bong bong" man? That this is heinous censorship? Or do we get a couple sheepish remarks and nothing more? My guess is the latter.

You're really going out of your way to create a cartoonishly racist scenario there that would almost never get past a big publisher in the first place in just about any market, including Japan. That's some hyperbolic stuff and not at all comparable to anything happening with TMS.

 

[thumb]

You're really going out of your way to create a cartoonishly racist scenario there that would almost never get past a big publisher in the first place in just about any market, including Japan. That's some hyperbolic stuff and not at all comparable to anything happening with TMS.

Of course not. But again, I'm testing people's commitment to "artistic freedom". There's been plenty of posturing in this thread that there are no grey areas, that it's freedom vs. puritans and so on. So I'm testing the limits. Even you're not answering directly! You're just complaining that you don't like my example.

 

[SeanTSC]

Of course not. But again, I'm testing people's commitment to "artistic freedom". There's been plenty of posturing in this thread that there are no grey areas, that it's freedom vs. puritans and so on. So I'm testing the limits. Even you're not answering directly! You're just complaining that you don't like my example.

Dude, stop trying to bait people into some stupid "ah ha gotcha!" thing. It's really childish.

 

[TheRook]

@thumb it's obvious your changing Sean's point to fit your narrative. Your point with the hyperbole is that something so incredibly racist was in the game, should we want to keep it in the game to keep it's integrity? I see where your going with this but your going in the wrong direction with this.

Sean, like a lot of other users here dislike the notion of Nintendo acting xenophobic to the idea of sexuality in their games. This isn't racism, sexism, or bigotry. This is Nintendo consistently going out their way to change how characters look with even the most minor of change to prevent some moral backlash they could receive in the future.

If you agree with the changes, fine. Agree to disagree and move on. Some people are still trying to come to terms with the changes to the game, and (at least I thought) the point of this thread originally was to show most if not all the changes made in localization to give people the information needed to come to a conclusion on their own to buy the game or not.

 

[thumb]

Dude, stop trying to bait people into some stupid "ah ha gotcha!" thing. It's really childish.

If you think I'm in this debate to go "gotcha", you ought to look back above. You know, where I examined the details of one of the localization decisions and admitted that it would upset me, and that my initial assessment could be wrong?

My "childish" question was a thought experiment. Thought experiments are not designed to only be used when they represent highly probable events. They are also used to probe the limits and logic behind people's reasoning.

All my thought experiment means is that there are circumstances where the outcry would be nigh non-existent, because people would see the changes as either improving the art, or they would see the removed content as superfluous and unnecessary in the first place.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

I don't like the attempt to downplay how important the issue is. The issue is as big as it needs to be in the context of an enthusiast video game forum where people discuss games in depth. Just because it's not AS important as something else doesn't mean it isn't important.

If it wasn't that important we wouldn't have a 1400 post thread and a new thread every single time this happens. I'm not saying it's okay to be a jerk, but I don't really care for that particular narrative.

My stance is that it can be as important to you as it needs to be. Honestly, I'm not mocking anybody that finds this type of localization/censorship disconcerting. If it's important to you that we get a version as close to the original as possible, then by all means voice your concerns.

Where I draw a line is that, no, I don't think this issue is important enough to decry it as some sort of battlefield where sides must be chosen and if you pick incorrectly then you must face those consequences. We're all adults here capable of civil debate. For the people against censorship, I certainly wouldn't approve of anyone childishly declaring "this change is good and anyone who doesn't agree is clearly a weeb animu loser who likes to beat off to scantily clad underaged girls." Conversely, I don't care for this attitude of decrying that anyone who would be for this change is clearly objectively wrong because censorship of art is always bad and anyone who disagrees shall be met with condescension.

Sometimes issues reach a point where you can't sit on the fence any longer and need to choose which side you're on for the upcoming important battle. This is not one of those issues. I'm not saying that it can't be important to you. But it's not important enough to be disrespectful to someone who doesn't agree with you because you feel like they're on the wrong side of history on this issue.

 

[Sheiter]

If you think I'm in this debate to go "gotcha", you ought to look back above. You know, where I examined the details of one of the localization decisions and admitted that it would upset me, and that my initial assessment could be wrong?

My "childish" question was a thought experiment. Thought experiments are not designed to only be used when they represent highly probable events. They are also used to probe the limits and logic behind people's reasoning.

All my thought experiment means is that there are circumstances where the outcry would be nigh non-existent, because people would see the changes as either improving the art, or they would see the removed content as superfluous and unnecessary in the first place.

Except this isn't a thread about localization in general, or even recent changes made to Nintendo games. It's about the changes made to this specific game. You're trying to get people to "admit they're hypocrites" with regards to changes made in games when brought over by using such an exaggerated example that you know will never happen. Such a thought exercise might be useful in a college classroom but this isn't a thread about people having to prove their ideologies. All you're accomplishing is derailing the thread away from the actual changes that have actually taken place.

 

[Dragonslayer_023]

I just realized that they're rewriting scenes but leaving in the Japanese audio so the spoken and written dialogue wont match up all. It always bugs me when there's a big divide between the two. Recently Tales of Hearts R was really bad for this.

 

[kiryogi]

I just realized that they're rewriting scenes but leaving in the Japanese audio so the spoken and written dialogue wont match up all. It always bugs me when there's a big divide between the two. Recently Tales of Hearts R was really bad for this.

No, actually they redid some lines too. That's the baffling thing.

 

[Phu]

All my thought experiment means is that there are circumstances where the outcry would be nigh non-existent, because people would see the changes as either improving the art, or they would see the removed content as superfluous and unnecessary in the first place.

The outcry would be nonexistent because why would the racist game be on anyone's radar to begin with? An outcry requires that people were interested in the racist game from the start and only got upset after the racism was removed. Why would you ask us if we would rally against the removal of racism in a game? Who here has shown that that would be something they'd be interested in purchasing?

That is where the market decides. Even if the game came out completely unedited with all its blatant racism, that series would not survive due to public backlash and lack of interest. If, however, the game came out that way and sold really well and became this big thing, that's a failure of our society for supporting it and not the game simply for having it.

 

[thumb]

Except this isn't a thread about localization in general, or even recent changes made to Nintendo games. It's about the changes made to this specific game. You're trying to get people to "admit they're hypocrites" with regards to changes made in games when brought over by using such an exaggerated example that you know will never happen. Such a thought exercise might be useful in a college classroom but this isn't a thread about people having to prove their ideologies. All you're accomplishing is derailing the thread away from the actual changes that have actually taken place.

This thread has covered lots of topics. Just above us, two people are debating the use of censorship, broadly speaking. I'm not going to pursue this point any further, regardless.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

I just realized that they're rewriting scenes but leaving in the Japanese audio so the spoken and written dialogue wont match up all. It always bugs me when there's a big divide between the two. Recently Tales of Hearts R was really bad for this.

No, part of this whole crazy thing is that they're changing the audible Japanese lines to fit the modified English scenes and text.

 

[Spiral Insanity]

I hate this.

 

[TheRook]

No, part of this whole crazy thing is that they're changing the audible Japanese lines to fit the modified English scenes and text.

Wouldn't that actually cost...more? I maybe wrong but isn't their some prominent Japanese Voice Actors in this game? like Kiria's voiced by the same woman who does Ayase Eli(Eri) from Love Live right?

It's just weird...

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Dude, stop trying to bait people into some stupid "ah ha gotcha!" thing. It's really childish.

Nah, I get where he's coming from. A lot of hardline stances have been taken with seemingly no room for any middle ground.

And calm down man.

@thumb it's obvious your changing Sean's point to fit your narrative. Your point with the hyperbole is that something so incredibly racist was in the game, should we want to keep it in the game to keep it's integrity? I see where your going with this but your going in the wrong direction with this.

Considering all the hyperbole in the thread already, his isn't really that egregious is it?

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Wouldn't that actually cost...more? I maybe wrong but isn't their some prominent Japanese Voice Actors in this game? like Kiria's voiced by the same woman who does Ayase Eli(Eri) from Love Live right?

It's just weird...

Technically, most of the changes they're doing cost more. They're creating all new art assets and outfits to replace the Japanese ones.