Aaron Strife
Banned
I think the latter is the broader problem.
Most BernieOrBust people have no skin in the game. Gay marriage and abortion criminalized? Oh well. Must be great being a straight dude.
- straight dude
TPM: Vitriol from Sanders' campaign coming from the top
- Thread starter giga
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Most BernieOrBust people have no skin in the game. Gay marriage and abortion criminalized? Oh well. Must be great being a straight dude.
- straight dude
I notice that this is a recurring theme, focusing on feelings instead of responding to the substance of the argument.
The posters pretty clearly lay-out just two issues that will be affected as a consequence of this election. There will be many, many, maaaaaaany more issues touched as a result of this election. For decades. When this reality is pointed-out, you cry foul?
Fenderputty
Banned
Bernie or bust people should feel shame. It's a shameful position.
Darryl M R
Member
The ACA does so much good for everyone. It will be horrible if that gets repealed. Can insurance companies now deny my gf because she has a condition? Will medicine and our insurance prices go up? Scary to think about.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
You have the Supreme Court, and his awful list of potential nominees, but also that whole banning Muslim's(no doubt hate crimes would continue to rise as well), killing families/torture programs and mass deportation thing. And completely wiping out whatever progress was made with the ACA.
I'm more inclined to consider these BernieOrBust people something else, but I'd rather not get banned over such things.
I have no problem with your arguments and you've been civil. You have constantly hammered out the importance of Supreme Court justices and I agree they are. There is still other issues with Hillary people might not be comfortable voting for and to dismiss them, shame them, and use manipulative images to create guilt is a disservice to Hillary, Democratic Party, and liberal values.
The problem is that if they care about those issues this election is going to be the most important one of their lives. The next president is going to replace RBG and likely someone else. The entire court could shift and the GOP is in the midst of mounting a new legal challenge against Roe. This could be the most important election in regards to a woman's right to choose we're going to see in our lifetimes. Not to mention swinging the court back to the left means that actual progress can be made on everything without fear of the court striking it down for ideological reasons.
Fenderputty
Banned
"You have a point that people should maybe look at the bigger pitcture, but shaming them for not looking at the bigger picture is bad m'kay."
excelsiorlef
Member
Not stopping Trump and the GOP is the real disservice. Nothing else matters, period.
Cesare Borgia
Banned
The actual answer is that they don't give a shit about the Supreme Court or any substantial policy issue outside of a demand for purity and anti establishment sentiment.
Frankly I don't care if they don't vote in November and I'm tired of liberals hand wringing over the nonsensical views of a minority of Sanders supporters. Why would you waste your time courting sore losers who would vote for Ron Paul or Trump over Hillary Clinton, thus exposing a general lack of an idealogical core?
Any 'vitriol' outside of people who are advocating or promoting violence is not vitriol at all. Its calling corruption what it actually is. Nobody on the side of those powerful interests can play victim when the game was rigged by the more powerful forces involved from the start.
Whether its calling states long before the tallies are in, outright failing to include ballots of the candidates, media manipulation or what have you. Its clear to see IMO that those defending such nonsense don't really have a leg to stand on besides reflexively supporting a broken system because they don't know better, or they feel like they have something to gain from that.
Whether its calling states long before the tallies are in, outright failing to include ballots of the candidates, media manipulation or what have you. Its clear to see IMO that those defending such nonsense don't really have a leg to stand on besides reflexively supporting a broken system because they don't know better, or they feel like they have something to gain from that.
The Vice President was originally chosen by picking whoever came in second in the Presidential election. It was a terrible idea.
Parties were the natural consequence of the systems they built, and they participated in it later, but I don't know if they all saw it coming.
My family is Mexican. Hearing someone who claims to be a progressive say they want to support a racist fascist, that fucking hurts like a kick to the gut. I don't particularly care about their feelings after that.
Bel Marduk
Banned
I'm a gay dude. Stop painting us all with the same broad brush.
I can understand that. I have my own serious misgivings about her, both current and past, and I wish we'd had more choices this time around. But at this point, we're pretty much locked-in with her as the nominee. She's the vessel of our hopes for this cycle, for better or worse; progressivism's prospects are now directly tied to her. If she loses, it's game over for many of our causes for a while.
And the thing is, we've tried arguing the cold, logical, guilt-free route on this theme for a while, and it largely gets ignored from the BernieOrBust crowd. I'm sure you've seen this dynamic at work over many threads over the season. But they're big on emotion - they loooove emotional cues - so it doesn't entirely surprise me when a change in argument tactics is made. If you can't entice people to think, and they're across the table singing obsessively about how they feel, communicating via meme, it makes sense to try to influence those feelings. So here we are. Someone has matter-of-factly painted a few realistic snapshots from of one of our potential future timelines, and it's actually hitting nerves.
I get the hesitation on her, and it'll be incumbent upon us to keep the pressure on her (and our reps) should she win.. but an "MyWayOrBust" movement is suicidal.
Yeah, well I'm sure people who have family in the middle east or a member in military cares whether Hillary is going to go all war hawk over the area and create more instability. You're not the only one who has to face the consequences whether Hillary is president or not.
BlastProcessing
Member
Sanders certainly wasn't spending time talking about open primaries and inserting DNC boo lines in his stump when he started out. He has only shifted to those arguments when the electorate started rejecting his platform.
Again, if all states held open primaries Clinton would have won by now. If Caucuses didn't exist Clinton would have won by now. If Superdelegates didn't exist and all delegates were proportional, Clinton would have won by now. If states were winner take all/winner take most like the GOP holds, Clinton would have won by now.
The higher the turnout, the better Clinton does. The more diverse the turnout, the better Clinton does.
Sanders was able to build an energized and strong coalition, but it was not diverse enough nor large enough for him to even come particularly close to winning. Once that fact became apparent he has taken the time-tested lawyer's tactic of arguing the law when the facts are not on his side.
Your back and spouting nonsense.
She's running against a person who has overtly said he will commit war crimes (killing the families of terrorists) and you're worried about Hillary Clinton being a warhawk?
BlastProcessing
Member
He actually went ever further than that. He said that he would punish members of the military who refused to commit war crimes.
EatinOlives
Member
Except for that Trump has a clear xenophobic agenda and has said so multiple times whereas Hillary has never expressed the same sentiments toward Mexicans. Trump, on the other hand, has not supported anyone from the middle east and hasn't said anything about being anti-warhawk. In other words, if you vote anti-Trump you're voting anti-xenophobia. If you vote anti-Hillary you're not necessarily voting anti-warhawk. There's a difference here.
Those picture do the opposite. Bernie supporters have been guilted and shamed for awhile now and have been inoculated to that tactic and dig in their heels further. Obama, Reid, or someone needs to mediate between the two parties and get Bernie to drop out. Give him something instead of marginalizing him and his supporters. I think he knows he isn't going to win.
The problem is that Bernie is not the kind of guy who will meet you on the middle. He's all or nothing. You're either with him 100% or are against him.
Not true. Crime Bill. He passed a weak VA funding bill until congress was shamed to pass a better bill with McCain. It's pathetic when Trump and the RNC has been getting along the past week and liberals can't do the same.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
That's more or less where I've fallen
balladofwindfishes
Member
That's on Bernie and Bernie alone to do.
Supporting Trump will not improve things in the middle east.
Omegasquash
Member
I see this term used often. Do people really think she's going to get the US into more wars after the past two republican presidents?
Jesus Christ.
Boombloxer
Member
You should probably read the Times article. He's hoping that a scandal or Trump and his attacks work well enough with his attacks to get him the nom.
And really, most of the party is fine with Hillary being the nominee. Primaries are always heated, and it was much worse in 08. Obama still got 92% of the dem vote. Will be the same case here.
People who support Bernie but say they'll vote for Trump can't be taken seriously anyway.
Side note, the Magnum in Uncharted 4 was renamed the Barok 44. It is my favorite gun thus far.
I am feeling like we are past the bolded. Granted I was on the losing side back then, but I wasn't particularly upset with Obama being the nominee.
Yeah, because Trump is the picture of dovish stability.
We know Hillary's foreign policy and the way she thinks from her term as a member in Senate and SofS. Trump is a crap shoot he could be either multiples times worse or surprisingly isolationist regarding the Middle East. Either way that could be an issue where some liberals will choose to abstain.
I did. He's not going to win and he should know it's very unlikely.
PhoncipleBone
Banned
Which reminds me, I keep seeing so many Bernie supporters saying that Clinton needs to do a better job of courting them or they won't go for her. But what do they want her to do? I have not found a good, concrete answer as to what her actions should be to get the really crazy Bernie fans to come. It always seems like threats and that they want her to beg or something.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Surprisingly isolationist that "bombs the shit out of" people. I'm sure liberals would love his drone program.
Do you think progressives should or shouldn't support Trump's proposed policy of torturing the families of terrorists?
It's obvious people are just desperately throwing shit at the wall to keep the TYT-level cognitive dissonance going.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Drop out and endorse Bernie.
GAF is unusually hilarious today.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Hillary has done absolutely nothing to alienate Bernie supporters.
Only one person is standing up there saying the DNC is corrupt, the whole system is corrupt, and he's the only one who can fix it.
EatinOlives
Member
Well I'm sold...
At least you've been able to realize why your original statement about "but she's a warhawk tho" when someone brought up their Mexican relatives made no sense at all.
Aaron Strife
Banned
Trump was planning a visit to the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem in the aftermath of his comments calling to ban Muslims from entering the country.
He is absolutely clueless.
Because Trump's platform is nonsense doesn't mean he's going to throw the dice on his policies.
He's getting the GOP under his boot right now, the people who would want to draw, quarter and hang lgbt, minorities and anything not red blooded American are actually advising him on his supreme court picks and foreign policies.
He wants to punish women who had abortions.
It may seems nonsensical to you but there's a clear message under the BS and it's not anywhere close to anything BS would push.
If you think Trump is somehow "better" for the US (and its citizens) interests you clearly have no idea what US interests entails.
Oh damn. Next level smug right here. Pimping the "straight white Bernie supporter" meme then condescending to a gay dude who didn't appreciate it.
I see a lot of people decrying Bernie and his supporters for being too emotional while posting those dumb fucking image and pretty much basing their entire argument around how scary the Republicans are. Solely appealing to emotion and fear.
The pacification of the electorate by dividing the people along social issues is working brilliantly. What a strange coincidence it is that virtually everyone who leans conservative socially also leans conservative economically and vice-versa.
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
Considering he's promised to "bomb the shit" out of ISIS, send in our big, rich oil companies to rebuild, and take all their oil, as well as promising to kill the family members of terrorists, I'm going to go out on a limb and say he's not going to be "surprisingly isolationist."
Even if you think he was just blowing smoke, the fact that he'd publicly make these statements as campaign promises should give you pause as to how imbalanced (or plain ol' insane) this man might be.
Hey if you're ok with Trump's SCOTUS picks with people that are openly against involving lgbt be the Milo of Gaf.
by that I mean if you're a gay Bernie or Bust who think Trump is better than Clinton...
Not to mention pretty much threatening people that wouldn't carry out his orders which are war crimes...
You might not like the image, but it's based on solid logical ground.
The reactions are an interesting change from having logical arguments conspicuously, repeatedly ignored, but
calling the pictures "dumb" or complaining that they hit on emotion/fear is still no substitute for a real counter-argument.
Then again, at this point, I'm not expecting one from the bust crowd.
Punchy4486
Banned
Trump continues to say he's going to bomb the hell out of his enemies so fast their heads will spin. He has said he would kill the family members of terrorists to teach them a lesson, cuz "it's the only way to get through to these people". He has said he will bring back water-boarding and "a lot worse". He refuses to take NUKING EUROPE off the table of options he has. He has indicated that he has little concern over committing war crimes and that he will force or punish any military members that refuse his orders to commit them.
And you think he's a "crap shoot" and might be better than Hillary when it comes to foreign policy?
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