Dash_Riprock
Member
The truth hurts.
TPM: Vitriol from Sanders' campaign coming from the top
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The truth hurts.
Scofield94941
Member
This has escalated quickly. Who woulda thought saying free college would turn into a "revolution" wat
Exactly the same, except I actually used to really respect the guy. Now I wish he'd just go away.
Yeah, I can't stand those Bernie or Bust people. Must be nice to have no real skin in the game.
When I read this I skimmed it and it looked like "innocent" Bernie posters.
Man that second reading did change things!
They're great/
That's what I get for skimming and not fully reading lol
QuantumZebra
Member
these are incredible
balladofwindfishes
Member
Those images are excellent
RustyNails
Member
Those images put into perspective what's at stake. Bernie or Bust people are morons.
shadowsdarknes
Member
Many of these people were not politically engaged until this election cycle. So you'll have to understand that some people are not just going to vote Hillary as their second option.
I don't agree with Bernie or Bust, personally. I'll vote Hillary. But there are some decent compelling arguments from their side.
-Democrats will stand united against Trump's agenda. Even some Republicans, too.
-All Republicans will be aligned against Hillary's agenda, and some Democrats, too.
-Let the Republicans have the least liked President, not the Democrats.
-A much more progressive candidate in 4 years can come forth.
-Hillary will have a hard time getting elected a second time around. Many people are reluctantly voting for her out of necessity to keep Trump away. In 4 years, it's going to be hard to sell an increasingly progressive country on 4 more years of status quo politics.
Bernie's movement has been telling. There is a real thirst for progressive ideas. Bernie being so old and white and from a state like Vermont makes it hard for him to achieve true mass appeal. A younger candidate with more charisma and similar ideals can go very far. And I think the right progressive could keep Republicans away from the White House for a long time.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
All of this ignores the supreme court though. Which is amazing after the last couple years we've had, where the SC has done things like uphold the ACA and rule on nationwide gay marriage
Trump is for 4 years
His court is for at least 15
All of that gets countered fairly easily: Supreme Court. That is coming up now. Whoever is president next determines its fate for a generation. If we don't win, a huge check to any progress any candidate in the future proposes would exist.
We pout on the moral high ground, we stack the deck against ourselves for the next thirty to fifty years. Clappity clap, everyone.
These are not are not valid viewpoints. At all. Not even in the slightest. Anyone who says that is their view has no clue how politics works at all. Either they are ignorant or naive at best.
The next President in his or her first term is going to name MINIMUM two Supreme Court justices. That is not something you can undo in 4 years with a different candidate/President.
Calling them compelling...defies all logic.
Exactly the same, except I actually used to really respect the guy. Now I wish he'd just go away.
Yeah, I can't stand those Bernie or Bust people. Must be nice to have no real skin in the game.
Fucking beautiful
Presidents almost always win re-election. A Trump presidency or Hillary presidency is much more likely to last 8 years than 4.
And, has as been already pointed out, Trump or Hillary could serve one year and their influence on the Supreme Court would be felt for a generation.
And_Gignac
Member
Exactly the same, except I actually used to really respect the guy. Now I wish he'd just go away.
Yeah, I can't stand those Bernie or Bust people. Must be nice to have no real skin in the game.
Nnnnnn this propaganda, so endearing. Bernie or bust people are not even a third of Clinton or burst people in 08. In fact we had more Clinton or Burst people in places like NY. They are a fallacy, another machinery used by some well off, privileged Clinton voters who need to justify their choice.
You do realize that Trump will be going into the White House with a majority house and a possible majority Senate, right?
He can fuck up a lot of shit in four years. These people don't understand that.
I've missed you.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Yes. I'm really "reaching" with my "choice" to ensure continued support for things like "LGBTQ rights"
jack_package_200
Banned
The difference being that Hillary was willing to concede with dignity at the end and got the PUMA crowd to go out and vote for Obama.
I am having increasing doubts that Bernie will do the same.
shadowsdarknes
Member
Sam Seder and Jimmy Dore from TYT had a debate about this for nearly an hour on The Majority report. It's a fairly good debate.
The SC does come up and it's factored in.
The SC is largely the reason I'll be voting for Hillary.
My post is to at least try to understand where the Bernie or Bust movement is coming from. While I disagree with them, I at least don't try to throw out every argument they make and then call them morons and idiots like the posters above.
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
I don't care if it's unintentional, this is fucking breathtaking satire.
lol@"these are not valid viewpoints". They're pretty much the same viewpoints of a different tint regularly espoused here, especially points #2 and #4.
shadowsdarknes
Member
They almost always do. But Hillary is also going to potentially win with some of the highest unfavorables ever. Many will be voting out of their hatred for Trump. Or many will be voting out of reluctance that she will still govern relatively progressively.
The Trump balloon can deflate pretty fast, too. When he gets nothing done and fails to govern like a conservative, his base will get angry.
Trump has been propped up on lies and double speak and it's really only a matter of time before his governance doesn't match his campaign rhetoric.
He can very easily be a 1 term president.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
4 is just more accelerationism. People said the same thing about Bush, that Bush would be/was so bad that we would have to 'wake up" and elect an uber-liberal. And then...the country elected Obama, who I like a whole lot, but who is radical by any standards
Are you kidding me? This is one of the lowest, most revolting posts that I have ever seen. And of course, Hillary supporters are endorsing this nonsense.
Maybe Hillary supporters need to be reminded of the men that she sent to their deaths over in Iraq. A war that the region is still reeling from. A war that turned the region into a hotbed of terrorists. Those ISIS guys we keep hearing about in the news? Yeah, they were BORN out of our stupidity over there. They FED off of the war. It's a good thing Hillary knew that nothing good can come from war and not to be trigger-happy. OOPS.
And speaking of nothing good coming from war, of course we cannot forget about the men and women who are dedicated to protecting our country. But they weren't protecting anyone this time. They went into Iraq to settle a grudge Bush had with Saddam. And Hillary was just fine with that. And how costly was that grudge? Well, just a little over 4,000 U.S. lives. Lives that Hillary had no qualms throwing into the fire. Lives that the world were pleading not to be wasted. Lives that had no business over there in light of what we knew at the time.
Hillary actively voted for a war that lead to a new era of terrorism and got thousands of U.S. soldiers killed in the process
But who cares about that. Vote for Hillary, or else you're a homophobia and rapist sympathizer.
shadowsdarknes
Member
It's an interesting point.
People thought they were getting "hope and change" and a change to regular politics.
People were willing to elect a minority with a Muslim sounding name because he represented something different. Far different than Bush.
And in many ways he is. And in many ways, he's been a disappointment for progressive politics.
But conversely, Al Gore losing didn't give us someone more progressive. John Kerry was less progressive than Gore if I'm not mistaken.
Honestly this wouldn't surprise me. I want to support the guy, but every move he makes just puts him further and further out of my mind, as though he's throwing a tantrum for mommy not buying the toy. Unrelated to the article, he's just being kinda childish.
Still not voting for Hillary, but I don't think I can support Sanders either.
And no I'm not voting Trump.
Still not voting for Hillary, but I don't think I can support Sanders either.
And no I'm not voting Trump.
jack_package_200
Banned
I'll repost what I posted in poligaf
If you were actually progressive, you would do everything in your power to not let Trump win. He would ruin things for women, LBGT, and people of color.
Must be nice to have all that privilege to be Bernie or Bust.
If you were actually progressive, you would do everything in your power to not let Trump win. He would ruin things for women, LBGT, and people of color.
Must be nice to have all that privilege to be Bernie or Bust.
First off, this is true now, and yet Obama has demonstrated that a President actually has a ton of power, independent of Congress, to enact policy changes and change the country. So I don't think this argument carries much weight.
But it also ignores that party polarization isn't constant. It has gotten much worse over the last year for strategic reasons. It can also get better! If Trump loses horribly and a bunch of Republicans lose their seats, the remainder are much more likely to suddenly discover the benefits of compromise. But that requires people to actually turn out to vote for the policy outcomes they prefer.
Why would the election of a far-right fascist mean more progressivism in the future? That is not actually how elections work. History is pretty clear that the country tends to move overall in the direction of electoral victories. Reagan didn't lead to a bunch of progressive victories, the exact opposite happened.
If anything, Trump winning would mean an even more centrist Democrat would get nominated in four years.
This is just tea leaves and personal bias. I think that in four years it'll be really easy for Hillary to get reelected because of all the progressive stuff she'll have accomplished.
I mean, I think this is only true if you don't understand politics.
shadowsdarknes
Member
Are you at least voting third party?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
She's still better than Trump. And she'll still help more people than Trump would. She'll still back up institutional protections for marginalized groups. Is that not important? Or are you so fucking proud, so completely full of yourself that you can't bring yourself to do one tiny thing, go stand in line for half an hour and mark a box, so that a few hundred thousand or a few million people have better lives?
A vote for Clinton is not an endorsement of Clinton. That's why they're private. No literally, this is the exact reason they're private. Exactly this. No-one has to know you did it. You're not making a statement. All you're doing is choosing between two options and deciding which of the two will help the most and harm the least people
Saint Gregory
Member
While the Clinton's attacks against Obama got a lot uglier towards the end of the campaign than I think some people remember at no point did either of them say that the reason Hillary lost was because the entire system and the DNC was corrupt. Sanders is actively poisoning his supporters against the Democratic party and is still wondering why the party isn't rallying behind him.
The real problem is that Bernie isn't a Democrat, he ran in the DNC primary for the increased attention he'd get vs running as an Independent. If the end result of this process is a schism in liberal voters this November the DNC is likely to change their rules to make selection of their candidate even more of a closed process than it is now and avoid the possibility of an outsider causing this kind of discord in their primaries.
The real problem is that Bernie isn't a Democrat, he ran in the DNC primary for the increased attention he'd get vs running as an Independent. If the end result of this process is a schism in liberal voters this November the DNC is likely to change their rules to make selection of their candidate even more of a closed process than it is now and avoid the possibility of an outsider causing this kind of discord in their primaries.
astroturfing
Member
but wouldn't it be a good thing if the Democratic party also imploded? they are a shit party. it's a great thing how Bernie is shaking things up.
I don't disagree -- save for Obama being radical by any standards, as that's quite the hyperbole -- and is exactly my point.
People can certainly disagree on that poster's summation, but it's absurd to call it invalid or imply it's somehow objectively incorrect, especially when a good portion of this forum has been peddling the same political fan fiction.
Yes, because it was Hillary and only Hillary who started a war in Iraq.
Killary murdered them all with her bare hands.
I guess best is Trump wings by simple majority, worst is Trump wins because no one had 270 but Clinton or Sanders had majority of votes. One is frustrating, the other EXTREMELY frustrating, and both are awful end results.
I am starting to get weary of Bernie here with how things have gone lately. I've felt there was no harm in running but if things are going to get violent and nasty then it's just going to make a mess of things before election time.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
No. No it really wouldn't. Again, its crazy to me that we have people suggesting this on the back of the progressive victories of the last few years. Without a strong democrat in the Whitehouse its very likely that the DOJ doesn't bother disputing the state level anti-trans laws frankly
You are not a homophobia and racist sympathizer if you don't vote for Hilary, but if you understand that
A - either a Republican or Democrat will win the presidency, as has happened for decades
B - the presumptive nominees of both parties are Hilary and Trump
C - these are your choices.
Now if war is a more important issue than LGBT/Minority rights, that's fine (although I'm not sure how Trump will be less hawkish than Hilary). You just have to be cool with your own decision.
I voted for Bernie in the MI primary and every day I regret it more and more. As a black gay man, I can't let the GOP nominate judges who could significantly impact the choices I can make in my life. I'd prefer he won, but he's lost the popular vote and many of his wins come from states that either aren't very diverse or caucuses, which are inherently less democratic than primaries.
I am sure there is a political cartoon out there somewhere showing Emaillary putting a bomb next to the Ben G. Hazi embassy with an evil grin on her face.
Are you just making things up? Like hell the evidence was strong. Did Hillary not have a TV back then? She couldn't turn on the news and see everyone saying, "No weapons of mass destruction found in Iraq."
That Hans Blix guy that WE sent over there to see if Iraq was manufacturing weapons. What did he say? And what did we do anyway?
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
Stabbed them to death with a stick of butter.
Those posters might've set off an emotional response, but I note that you don't dispute the accuracy of the consequences depicted in them.
For the record, I'm not a fan of the war. I was stridently, vehemently against it. I bashed the crap out of Democrats who went along with it 13 years ago, and had to hold my nose when voting for Kerry the following year.
But I'm not willing to chuck the chance of seeing Bernie's vision fulfilled over next few decades down the drain for one horrible vote. There are other, less self-destructive ways to hold her feet to the fire.
You say that thousands of lives were affected. Well, as a result of 2016, thousands more lives will be affected. And I'm not willing to use a mistake in 2003 as justification for making another mistake in 2016.
That's how I wanna go.
Fenderputty
Banned
Protest votes might be the silliest thing I've ever seen in politics. It's the definition of ineffectual back patting. Look at me the ineffectual special snowflake!
Being called out hurts doesn't it?
Being called out hurts doesn't it?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Basically this
I get the reason you're saying this, but it's really not true. A vote is an explicit endorsement. The rationale of that endorsement may be kept private, but if you're voting, you're certainly endorsing that candidate in some capacity.
There's a reason successful politicians claim to have a political mandate afterwards.
RustyNails
Member
So much what aboutism. Joe Biden also voted for it. Hillary didn't send anyone off to die in a war. Hans Blix requested War Authorization in order to threaten Saddam. Bush however overruled Blix and just invaded. Hillary wasn't fine with it and in retrospect called it a mistake. Trump was for it, against it and is now for it (or against it?). Dude has no principles.
Roland_Gunner
Member
If you're an affluent, heterosexual, white male then I guess. If you're from a group that needs legal protection or access to basic services then hahahahaha no. Also, Trump will gut Obama's climate change regulations so enjoy the planet even more fucked in 20 years than it already will be.
And if anyone seriously thinks Clinton losing is going to lead to a more liberal Democratic party just look at the 80's / 90's. Liberals losing elections is what led to centrist groups coming into power and Bill Clinton getting the nomination in '92. If there's one thing conservatives get its that you win power inside the system, not by trying to overthrow it.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
But its not a public statement, is what I'm trying to get at. If you vote for Clinton, and she does something you disagree with, you're not now that "guy who voted for Clinton" unless you choose to be. You are not telling the world "I, Jason Smith, am 100% behind this candidate and everything they stand for!"
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