Support NeoGAF

[gundamkyoukai]

What? A teraflop is a measure of speed. It's universal.

What you are saying is like saying that Chevy mph is by definition more powerful than Ford mph. It makes no sense. Miles per hour is a universal measure of speed.

No what he is saying is the speed does not tell you the full picture.
Using the car analogy both cars can go 150mph but one has better handling , gear ratio etc etc .
So it's best not to judge performance on TFLOP alone between the 2 companies .

If MS does talk about Scorpio at E3 i don't see them telling us the spec unless it coming out earlier than the rumor.

 

[backbreaker65]

This whole thread is blah, blah, blah. Dude's just talking in circles.

 

[Renekton]

What? A teraflop is a measure of speed. It's universal.

What you are saying is like saying that Chevy mph is by definition more powerful than Ford mph. It makes no sense. Miles per hour is a universal measure of speed.

The issue is: the same Chevy gets different MPH depending on terrain.

Nvidia could be measuring MPH on a mountain road while AMD could be on an F1 track.

 

[Fess]

Scorpio only looks bad for Neo if they are releasing at the same time. If Neo releases well ahead of Scorpio, this year, along with a lower price PS4 standard, I think that will be enough 'catching MS off-guard' for Sony for one day.

Any surprises vs the leaked Neo spec would be welcome of course!

"The next generation doesn't start until we say it does." definitely hurt the launch of Xbox 360, the mysterious power of the upcoming PS2 and emotion engine hurt the Dreamcast launch too. I doubt that Sony will leave the difference as big as it seems right now, this is their game, building hype and popping competitors hype bubbles is what they do, they always come out looking smarter. I won't buy either of these console but I can't wait to see what they'll say and how they'll try to sell these things in the press conferences.

 

[nekkid]

A car metaphor. Awesome.

It's a bad one, though. A better one is horsepower. Two cars with the same horsepower can perform completely differently because of how the suspension geometry, gearbox etc. etc. plants that power down on the road.

 

[Nictel]

No way PSVR can be so influential right now, Neo (as Scorpio) will be marketed as a premium model with better overall performance and that's it. Heavily promoting the Neo-PSVR combo would be just ridiculous with that price point (~$800).

Don't forget the majority of people do not own PCs that can handle Occulus/Vive. So for most VR would mean at least a ~1500$ investment (PC + VR kit) that makes that $800 sound like a good option.

 

[HighResTomato]

A console rushed to market that had historically awful issues with built quality?

MS hardware department was also not as good as it is today.

 

[Sid]

Fucking lol at the car metaphors.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Don't forget the majority of people do not own PCs that can handle Occulus/Vive. So for most VR would mean at least a ~1500$ investment (PC + VR kit) that makes that $800 sound like a good option.

No it would not cost $1500 investment for PC VR .
By the time next year VR spec gx cards going to be cheap .
The already dropping in price .

 

[darkinstinct]

How do I put it - Nvidia cards generally perform better than AMD cards when you factor in Teraflops as your rubrick of comparison. Example-


The 980ti and 290X are both 5.6 TFLOPS. However, the Nvidia cards kicks the living hell out of the AMD card. The 980ti performs TWICE AS GOOD as the AMD part, yet both are around 5 teraflops. Point? You can't compare the Teraflops of an Nvidia card and expect similar performance for an AMD part. Why? If we just took TF ratings in a vacuum the Nvidia cards are performing much better. Here's a benchmark:

57 fps to 39 fps is twice the performance? Ok then. One card has 4 GB Ram while the other has 6. In a Ram hungry game that is a huge difference and costs a lot of performance.

 

[E-Cat]

But this is not an half step...

No, it is precisely a half step. Pretty much.

 

[nOoblet16]

57 fps to 39 fps is twice the performance? Ok then. One card has 4 GB Ram while the other has 6. In a Ram hungry game that is a huge difference and costs a lot of performance.

Card can be 2x as powerful but not have 2x the performance in game because performance scaling is not linear.

Beside, I don't kown why you are arguing about how much of a difference there is because despite all of that his point still stands that Nvidia flops cannot be compared to AMD flops because the nvidia card performs better than an AMD card with similar flops. In fact a 980Ti is on average superior to a FuryX which has 8.5 Tflops

 

[CyberPunked]

Get ready for remasters of current-gen games with the visuals they had before they were downgraded for the current-gen consoles!
C'mon pre-downgrade W3!

 

[c0de]

Streetfighter 6.

Spoiler

too soon?

This time sheep in the background have twice the amount of polygons

Spoiler

20

.

 

[Ushay]

Get ready for remasters of current-gen games with the visuals they had before they were downgraded for the current-gen consoles!
C'mon pre-downgrade W3!

Oh boy, this is exactly why I haven't played the expansions yet. Would like to experience this game at it's finest.

 

[oldergamer]

I think the idea MS has is to sell both the cheapest & most expensive console at the same time. I'd be willing to bet having a cheap entry point into the Xbox eco system and then retaining those users is the main plan.

People forget xbox and PS3 sold over 80 million units. PS4 is at 40 million with xbox around 20. There's still tons of potential buyers remaining and those buyers are price sensitive.

 

[bidguy]

Get ready for remasters of current-gen games with the visuals they had before they were downgraded for the current-gen consoles!
C'mon pre-downgrade W3!

does it look like this on pc ?

 

[leeh]

Do two different car models with the exact same horse power specification reach the same max mph?

That's how it works.

When did Penello visit?

 

[Obscuritas]

Don't forget the majority of people do not own PCs that can handle Occulus/Vive. So for most VR would mean at least a ~1500$ investment (PC + VR kit) that makes that $800 sound like a good option.

That's why I'm inclined to think that VR still lacks mass appeal, they will sell these VR-goggles to an enthusiast audience, probably a smaller audience compared to the people who're gonna show interest in purchasing Neo/Scorpio.

 

[Bluenoser]

Fucking lol at the car metaphors.

Technically they are analogies, not metaphors.

 

[bidguy]

That's why I'm inclined to think that VR still lacks mass appeal, they will sell these VR-goggles to an enthusiast audience, probably a smaller audience compared to the people who're gonna show interest in purchasing Neo/Scorpio.

uhh rumored neo specs point to ps4k being made to smooth out their vr experience. big boost to GPU while the cpu stays the same with a slight overclock. neo is basically the same as your ps4 at home with a better clock and gpu while scorpio rumors say "new and revamped architecture"

i dont think they are gonna be in the same ballpark and apparently neither does sony otherwise they wouldnt have stuck with the weak cpu

 

[InquisitorAles]

does it look like this on pc ?

Nope, not even close

 

[CyberPunked]

does it look like this on pc ?

No. They butchered all versions.

 

[Zeta Oni]

Its been gone over before, but can you imagine Scalebound on these specs?

Imagine 4 custom Thuban's (the dragon) and 4 custom Drew's (the guy) facing off giant monsters like this, but at 60fps with even more graphical fidelity:

Show me this MS, and I'm there day 1.

 

[Obscuritas]

uhh rumored neo specs point to ps4k being made to smooth out their vr experience. big boost to GPU while the cpu stays the same with a slight overclock. neo is basically the same as your ps4 at home with a better clock and gpu while scorpio rumors say "new and revamped architecture"

i dont think they are gonna be in the same ballpark and apparently neither does sony otherwise they wouldnt have stuck with the weak cpu

Rumours also tell us that every PS4 game will be required to ship with a Neo mode, not just the VR ones (which, by the way, are perfectly fine on the OG PS4 too), so yeah, I still think that VR isn't the Neo's raison d'être.

 

[dragonelite]

Its been gone over before, but can you imagine Scalebound on these specs?

Imagine 4 custom Thuban's (the dragon) and 4 custom Drew's (the guy) facing off giant monsters like this, but at 60fps with even more graphical fidelity:

Show me this MS, and I'm there day 1.

Would not be surprised that x1 games will drop to 720~900p@30fps and the Scorpio version be 1080p@30~60fps or so

 

[HighResTomato]

Its been gone over before, but can you imagine Scalebound on these specs?

Imagine 4 custom Thuban's (the dragon) and 4 custom Drew's (the guy) facing off giant monsters like this, but at 60fps with even more graphical fidelity:

Show me this MS, and I'm there day 1.

I can't wait to see more of scalebound.

 

[napata]

57 fps to 39 fps is twice the performance? Ok then. One card has 4 GB Ram while the other has 6. In a Ram hungry game that is a huge difference and costs a lot of performance.

The Witcher isn't VRAM hungry at all. Even 2gb vs 4gb won't make any difference.

 

[Odorono]

does it look like this on pc ?

No. Still looks amazing though.

 

[Squozen]

This is a classic Microsoft tactic dating back to the 90's or earlier. "Don't buy this existing product, Microsoft has something coming down the pike in just a few months that will blow it away!"

Rarely did it turn out to be true, but it had an incredible chilling effect on the marketplace when Microsoft still had a dominant mindshare.

 

[Brad Grenz]

Its been gone over before, but can you imagine Scalebound on these specs?

Imagine 4 custom Thuban's (the dragon) and 4 custom Drew's (the guy) facing off giant monsters like this, but at 60fps with even more graphical fidelity:

Show me this MS, and I'm there day 1.

MS has basically announced all their first party games will get PC versions day one so you can feed Scalebound as many teraflops as you can afford irrespective of the Scorpio's existence.

 

[LogicStep]

I would imagine Sony would delay NEO and make it 6tf or more. If they don't that would be a mistake. Part of why PS4 was so successful was because it was the more powerful console, besides the whole ms fiasco with digital.

 

[Zeta Oni]

MS has basically announced all their first party games will get PC versions day one so you can feed Scalebound as many teraflops as you can afford irrespective of the Scorpio's existence.

That's assuming I have any desire to play on PC. I know this is information that surprises some people, but I for one just genuinely prefer consoles while also being capable of acknowledging the superiority that playing on PC gives you.

And if Scalebound does drop day and date on W10 with crossplay, that would be even better. I care far more about having a large community to keep a game alive than I do about exclusivity, and I would imagine quite a few people interested in the scorpio feel the same.

 

[Nictel]

No it would not cost $1500 investment for PC VR .
By the time next year VR spec gx cards going to be cheap .
The already dropping in price .

I already lowered it, I wanted to put 2000$ at first.
OK Lets go cheap:

$600,- VR kit
$200,- CPU
$100,- MB
$ 70,- RAM
$300,- GPU
$ 60,- psu
$ 60,- HDD
$ 30,- case

That's $1420,- IF you build it yourself, now either add $$$ markup for brand PC or $80,- custom coolers if you add it yourself. Now this ain't a PC I would recommend anyone seriously interested in VR.

 

[PanicFreak]

I already lowered it, I wanted to put 2000$ at first.
OK Lets go cheap:

$600,- VR kit
$200,- CPU
$100,- MB
$ 70,- RAM
$300,- GPU
$ 60,- psu
$ 60,- HDD
$ 30,- case

That's $1420,- IF you build it yourself, now either add $$$ markup for brand PC or $80,- custom coolers if you add it yourself. Now this ain't a PC I would recommend anyone seriously interested in VR.

I guess you're assuming that everyone has an extra monitor, keyboard and mouse, and windows license lying around?

 

[Nictel]

I guess you're assuming that everyone has an extra monitor, keyboard and mouse, and windows license lying around?

No but the person I was quoting insisted that $1500 was too much and you could build a VR PC with less so I dropped all accessories

 

[timlot]

When did Penello visit?

Chuckle...
He did make some car analogy during his PR stint here. Funny the small things you remember from years ago.

 

[get2sammyb]

I would imagine Sony would delay NEO and make it 6tf or more. If they don't that would be a mistake. Part of why PS4 was so successful was because it was the more powerful console, besides the whole ms fiasco with digital.

It always boggles my mind that people think the higher-ups at game companies paid six-figure salaries visit NeoGAF and cancel all of their plans based on rumours and what the posters are saying about them.

This applies to Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo by the way. They all have their own roadmaps and their own plans, and they execute on them as best as they can.

By the way, PS4 is successful because Sony speaks to a global audience with the PlayStation brand. Power is just one of many contributing factors.

 

[LukasTaves]

Two huge problems in your rationale:

1. You are comparing AMD teraflop ratings to Nvidia teraflop ratings. Nvidia's teraflops are by definition more powerful. Look to AMD cards to better identify your power concerns, and btw, it looks even more grim when comparing those numbers. Short answer: the Scorpio is no where NEAR the GTX 1070. Scorpio hovers around the GTX 970 in Nvidia comparisons.

It's not because nvidia flops are better, but because game performance is not determined simply by flops. Nvidia trades flop performance for more cache for example which gives then an advantage in games.

But if you compare float point performance only they will line up accordingly to their flop ratings.

 

[blastprocessor]

It's taking some developers near 4 years to develop a game. What will be the timeframe and cost to develop games that utilise all this power?

 

[bidguy]

I would imagine Sony would delay NEO and make it 6tf or more. If they don't that would be a mistake. Part of why PS4 was so successful was because it was the more powerful console, besides the whole ms fiasco with digital.

didnt devs already get their kits ? id imagine its way too late to make any drastic changes

 

[Obscuritas]

It's taking some developers near 4 years to develop a game. What will be the timeframe and cost to develop games that utilise all this power?

Three words: lowest common denominator.

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

"The next generation doesn't start until we say it does." definitely hurt the launch of Xbox 360, the mysterious power of the upcoming PS2 and emotion engine hurt the Dreamcast launch too. I doubt that Sony will leave the difference as big as it seems right now, this is their game, building hype and popping competitors hype bubbles is what they do, they always come out looking smarter. I won't buy either of these console but I can't wait to see what they'll say and how they'll try to sell these things in the press conferences.

I'm 100% confident Sony won't change anything about Neo. What hurt 360's launch was supply constraints, and what hurt Dreamcast was lack of DVD and Sega's damaged brand image at that time.

It wasn't simply "ZOMG TEH POWAH!" of PS3 or PS2 in some hypothetical sense, other than with perhaps the most hardcore graphics-obsessed core gamers, who make up a small portion of early adopters.

 

[Bgamer90]

I think the idea MS has is to sell both the cheapest & most expensive console at the same time. I'd be willing to bet having a cheap entry point into the Xbox eco system and then retaining those users is the main plan.

Pretty much. Same is true for many other companies that make tech devices with apps.

 

[John_B]

I would imagine Sony would delay NEO and make it 6tf or more. If they don't that would be a mistake. Part of why PS4 was so successful was because it was the more powerful console, besides the whole ms fiasco with digital.

The PS4 was succesful because Sony focused on the right things. The console design was simple and conservative compared to past efforts that hurt them in cost of production. To not repeat this mistake they went with a viable budget and spent most of it on GPU and fast memory following the guidance they received from developers.

Microsoft was presenting stuff like changing TV channels with your voice when Sony was presenting stuff like streaming your gaming session by the press of a button. Sony was so much more in sync with their consumers. It was not merely about .5 teraflops.

Sony will be sticking to their strategy. It would be crazy to start doing what Microsoft is doing when they have been going in every direction without much to show for it.

 

[W.S.]

This is a classic Microsoft tactic dating back to the 90's or earlier. "Don't buy this existing product, Microsoft has something coming down the pike in just a few months that will blow it away!"

Rarely did it turn out to be true, but it had an incredible chilling effect on the marketplace when Microsoft still had a dominant mindshare.

There are still a lot of hazy details but why wouldn't MS be taking this route?

Slim models have been a common practice for years. This is all leaked info so I doubt Microsoft wanted people to know about the Scorpio prior to the slim unless they explicitly do so in the future. Besides, given all the flak they've gotten this gen I can hardly blame them for wanting a fresh start.

I would imagine Sony would delay NEO and make it 6tf or more. If they don't that would be a mistake. Part of why PS4 was so successful was because it was the more powerful console, besides the whole ms fiasco with digital.

The PS4 has other things going for it that don't involve power such as wider worldwide appeal and a higher degree of developer support compared to the XBO. Sony likely has all the manufacturing plans in place so I doubt that they're going to play a reactionary game based on rumored specs.

 

[Metfanant]

The issue is: the same Chevy gets different MPH depending on terrain.

Nvidia could be measuring MPH on a mountain road while AMD could be on an F1 track.

uhh...mph doesnt work that way...

 

[Samurai G0SU]

I had a dream they called it xbox 1.4 lol. Idk why that made me laugh

 

[blue_phazon]

I had a dream they called it xbox 1.4 lol. Idk why that made me laugh

Sounds like something you would find funny

Spoiler

ALL GLORY TO GOSU

 

[Samurai G0SU]

Sounds like something you would find funny

Spoiler

ALL GLORY TO GOSU

I forgot to mention you pre ordered it via envelop mailer. Lol so weird but i sent mine in hahahahahHah

^_^