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[c0de]

But do we have more cars in racing games? Do we have more NPCs? I feel like from a gameplay perspective the vast majority of devs can do what they want to do right now already. Compare Arkham Asylum to Arkham Knight, Oblivion to Fallout 4, Or GTA 5 on last gen to any current gen game, I don't see much if any improvement in gameplay possibilities.

The jump from ps2/xbox to ps3/360 was vast, assassins creed would simply not have been possible on the previous gen for example. But so far this gen feels like last gen games with prettier graphics. Even the tech heavy hitters like quantum break or Uncharted 4 would be totally possible on last gen without sacrificing anything in terms of gameplay.

There are very few though that could do more gameplay wise on better hardware, No mans sky I imagine for example, but it's like a handful of games and these few might then be scorpio exclusives. No one will rage too much if we get 2 scorpio exclusives 2 years after the system is out (6 years after the xbox one came out)

So I really don't think there is a whole lot of holding back.

Yep, exactly. I don't see anything that could not be done on last gen hardware.
Of course better hardware can do more but you don't necessarily benefit from it in terms of gameplay (hello pc users).

 

[etta]

hasn't it been a "competent storefront" since Windows 8?

Not really no. There was no effort from Microsoft to get content on it and push it. They were like "here's our app store, put shit on it pls."

 

[GavinGT]

How are FLOPS measured? Both the GPU and CPU do floating point operations, right? So is it measuring the combined effort of both the GPU and CPU?

 

[...Scatter...]

Yep, exactly. I don't see anything that could not be done on last gen hardware.
Of course better hardware can do more but you don't necessarily benefit from it in terms of gameplay (hello pc users).

Actually there are things.

Open world without loading.
Screen and game capture.
More players in battlefield.
Better controllers with new input and feedback methods.

 

[Guerrilla]

Actually there are things.

Open world without loading.
Screen and game capture.
More players in battlefield.
Better controllers with new input and feedback methods.

yeah but these don't change the fundamental game structure or game experience. These all can be tacked on, can't they?

 

[icespide]

yeah but these don't change the fundamental game structure or game experience. These all can be tacked on, can't they?

what is a next gen game?

 

[Guerrilla]

what is a next gen game?

This isn't about the definition of a next gen game, but rather if these new consoles will be held back by their older counterparts.

 

[c0de]

what is a next gen game?

Well, we are still waiting for a definition but at least someone seems to have one when he knows that Xbox One will hold back Scorpio.

 

[spanks]

Halo, Forza Motorsport, Mech Assault, Mech Assault 2, Project Gotham Racing, Project Gotham Racing 2, Conker Live and Reloaded, Jet Set Radio Future, Fable, Panzer Dragoon Orta, Crimson Skies, Midtown Madness 3, Kung Fu Chaos, Rallisport Challenge 1 & 2, Shenmue II, Jade Empire, Star Wars KOTOR... oh and Halo 2.

But if you want just want to ignore those... I guess that's fine.

Mate I can't believe you forgot Ninja Gaiden, Phantom Dust, Chronicles of Riddick, Kingdom Under Fire, Oddworld Stranger's Wrath, Unreal Championship 2, Morrowind, Steel Battalion, Otogi 1 & 2, Deathrow, Far Cry Instincts, Call of Cthulhu, Stubbs the Zombie, Half Life 2, Doom 3, Chaos Theory, Breakdown, Arx Fatalis...

Brertty good for 3.5 years tbh

 

[...Scatter...]

I'm one of 12 people that had steel battalion.

 

[anothertech]

Joke post?

lol no. I actually thought long and hard about this.

When I first heard all games would now be uwp games, and Xbox would have no more exclusives, I couldn't believe it. But then I realized why they would do such a thing.

When Scorpio is released, as a fully integrated PC, or with that win10 mode or whatever, gamers will have access to everything. Including Steam, and their full library of games.

But when all the new games are coming out on Xbox/PC they aren't buying them on steam. They're buying them on windows store, cause that's where they are available and that's the easiest place to get them.

Of course third party games could be bought on steam etc, but chances are gamers would have bought those games on their pc's regardless. There is nothing lost. It's going to happen.

Edit: it will be what Steambox was supposed to be.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

Absolutely hilarious in retrospect. What did we get? 3.5 years of gems like Brute Force, Wreckless, and Blinx the Time Sweeper.

I mean yeah, if you ignore all the classics, then yeah, all we got were those 3 games over 4 years.

 

[MilkyJoe]

lol no. I actually thought long and hard about this.

When I first heard all games would now be uwp games, and Xbox would have no more exclusives, I couldn't believe it. But then I realized why they would do such a thing.

When Scorpio is released, as a fully integrated PC, or with that win10 mode or whatever, gamers will have access to everything. Including Steam, and their full library of games.

But when all the new games are coming out on Xbox/PC they aren't buying them on steam. They're buying them on windows store, cause that's where they are available and that's the easiest place to get them.

Of course third party games could be bought on steam etc, but chances are gamers would have bought those games on their pc's regardless. There is nothing lost. It's going to happen.

Long and hard

Spoiler

So are you saying you think the next xbox is going to be a PC? With a mouse? Keyboard? Windows updates and antivirus etc?

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

lol no. I actually thought long and hard about this.

When I first heard all games would now be uwp games, and Xbox would have no more exclusives, I couldn't believe it. But then I realized why they would do such a thing.

When Scorpio is released, as a fully integrated PC, or with that win10 mode or whatever, gamers will have access to everything. Including Steam, and their full library of games.

But when all the new games are coming out on Xbox/PC they aren't buying them on steam. They're buying them on windows store, cause that's where they are available and that's the easiest place to get them.

Of course third party games could be bought on steam etc, but chances are gamers would have bought those games on their pc's regardless. There is nothing lost. It's going to happen.

Edit: it will be what Steambox was supposed to be.

I'm telling you now this won't happen. The Xbox One will become a Living Room portal to the Windows Store.

Technically, once the Redstone (or whatever it's called) update comes, the Xbox will finally become the device Microsoft intended it to be back in the late 90s.

 

[Theonik]

Not if Microsoft made a deal to help invest in the development of the GPU which is likely if it is indeed what is going into the Scorpio.

That doesn't really matter much. AMD makes very tiny margins on their console APUs and that's where MS would be saving from if they did this. However, both the PS4K and the Scorpio are almost definitely using a 480X derived APU. The only difference might end up being the size of the systems and subsequent clock speed and powerdraw there.

e: Mind, the 5-6TF number for the Scorpio is a target, there is a couple of ways they can try to hit that, nothing spectacular though and it won't be 'free'. They might even lower their target too if they can't hit their desired cost.

Zen would be the absolute biggest upgrade any console could do outside of HBM2's bandwidth upgrade.

The GPU in the PS4K is going to be hamstrung to some extent by the relative weakness of the CPU and the bandwidth. If MS goes with something close in power to Jaguar and not HBM2, their even bigger GPU would be completely pointless to take advantage of.

While an update to Zen would be nice you need to remember these systems will run the same games as the X1/PS4 this means that you might not get many changes to games that might require more CPU power, while small upgrades to CPU basically mean that increasing framerates will be hard. However, increasing resolution, adding more effects etc will not tax the CPU that much which means means the GPU can be used even without a substancial CPU upgrade.

 

[Obscuritas]

??? They were going to do that anyway. Its a peripheral, and Neo is not required for it, just a better solution

I was just criticizing the idea that VR was the first reason why Sony developed Neo, when clearly it's not.

Ppl will buy the version already avail for the new system. Or rebuy it. You know... What happens today with bc. Ahem red dead and cod bo1.... You save money versus making a full remaster/remake. Thats what im saying or am i wrong to look at that info that way? Lol

There's no such thing like "long legs" in nowadays market expect for few titles (generally GTA, COD and Nintendo games), they all are frontloaded when it comes to sales, and a lot of people don't care about bc either.
Also, remasters/remakes have always been quick cashgrabs for developers/publishers.

 

[MilkyJoe]

I was just criticizing the idea that VR was the first reason why Sony developed Neo, when clearly it's not.

What is?

 

[jeff_rigby]

That doesn't really matter much. AMD makes very tiny margins on their console APUs and that's where MS would be saving from if they did this. However, both the PS4K and the Scorpio are almost definitely using a 480X derived APU. The only difference might end up being the size of the systems and subsequent clock speed and powerdraw there.

e: Mind, the 5-6TF number for the Scorpio is a target, there is a couple of ways they can try to hit that, nothing spectacular though and it won't be 'free'. They might even lower their target too if they can't hit their desired cost.


While an update to Zen would be nice you need to remember these systems will run the same games as the X1/PS4 this means that you might not get many changes to games that might require more CPU power, while small upgrades to CPU basically mean that increasing framerates will be hard. However, increasing resolution, adding more effects etc will not tax the CPU that much which means means the GPU can be used even without a substancial CPU upgrade.

Really good point I hadn't thought through. So upping frame rates requires more CPU. What about head tracking and gesture tracking for VR, assuming video pre processing using Xtensa accelerators to a depthmap, won't that still need more CPU?

Should we expect something along the lines of a Excavator not a ZEN? With GDDR5 and HBM2 wouldn't a smaller cache be possible? AMD is using Excavator in Carrizio while Carrizio-L is using Puma+. The Launch consoles had a TDP limit and a die size limit for cost reasons so a Cat core made sense. Does this still apply with 14nm? Consider the rumored 4.14 TF for NEO when Polaris 10 (new information) is 5.5 TF @150 watts and costs $199 retail for the dGPU card. Did they downscale the GPU performance to make room for a larger CPU? Or are the rumored specs for NEO wrong?

Scorpio has to use HBM2 if the ARM block is in the APU/SoC to support network standby power levels. That means Vega IP with the power saved in using HBM rather than GDDR5 can have a larger GPU with more TF which was rumored to be 6TF which means it is also scaled back from what I'm guessing a GPU plus cat core would have.

 

[CalamityPixel]

What is?

The reason? Unlimited power

Spoiler

that's limited

tbh I think VR is the reason. I'm more curious to know if scorpio (if it is real) is a direct response to Neo.

 

[nOoblet16]

But do we have more cars in racing games? Do we have more NPCs? I feel like from a gameplay perspective the vast majority of devs can do what they want to do right now already. Compare Arkham Asylum to Arkham Knight, Oblivion to Fallout 4, Or GTA 5 on last gen to any current gen game, I don't see much if any improvement in gameplay possibilities.

The jump from ps2/xbox to ps3/360 was vast, assassins creed would simply not have been possible on the previous gen for example. But so far this gen feels like last gen games with prettier graphics. Even the tech heavy hitters like quantum break or Uncharted 4 would be totally possible on last gen without sacrificing anything in terms of gameplay.

There are very few though that could do more gameplay wise on better hardware, No mans sky I imagine for example, but it's like a handful of games and these few might then be scorpio exclusives. No one will rage too much if we get 2 scorpio exclusives 2 years after the system is out (6 years after the xbox one came out)

So I really don't think there is a whole lot of holding back.

yeah but these don't change the fundamental game structure or game experience. These all can be tacked on, can't they?

You ask for examples and when people give them you disregard them. Battlefield with 64 players changes the fundamental structure. Open world games with no loading does the same.

You use GTA5 as an example of things that can be done last gen and imply that modern games dont do anything better fundamentally, well PS2 had GTA San Andreas and GTAV didn't do anything fundamentally different either if you are going to the core of it. COD games were on PS2 as well and the PS360 games could have been made on PS2 while keeping the fundamentals but you would miss out on the most defining feature of COD games then i.e. the 60FPS gameplay. You mention Assassin's Creed so I'll mention the game that spawned that game, PoP. Outside of open world we had a game with similar fundamental existing in the previous gen.

This argument about "next gen gameplay" is a load of horse crap imo, because games haven't fundamentally changed for years. But they have changed enough for even the secondary and tertiary characteristics to matter. There are plenty of games that simply couldn't be done on last gen without changing a core aspect of that game. And if you haven't noticed we absolutely do have games with more cars (Project Cars) and NPCs (Ass Creed, Hitman) than anything seen on PS360.

 

[Zedox]

The reason? Unlimited power

Spoiler

that's limited

tbh I think VR is the reason. I'm more curious to know if scorpio (if it is real) is a direct response to Neo.

Well, it is rumored that MS was anticipating "Neo" for next year and not this year. So when they did their planning, it was probably around what's available around that timeframe.

 

[HighResTomato]

Well, it is rumored that MS was anticipating "Neo" for next year and not this year. So when they did their planning, it was probably around what's available around that timeframe.

MS can't afford to drag their heels on this, whatever it is they are bringing I hope they deliver it right this time.

 

[MilkyJoe]

The reason? Unlimited power

Spoiler

that's limited

tbh I think VR is the reason. I'm more curious to know if scorpio (if it is real) is a direct response to Neo.

I called Scorpio as soon as I saw an xbox controller in an Oculus box. There is no way MS was going to sit out of the VR train and let PS take all the console custom. So the reason for Scorpio is obvious.

The reason for Neo, if not for VR, is not at all obvious.

 

[Tatsumi Oga]

It's going to be interesting to see if MS is sticking with the 6tflops or if they are going to lower it. I mean they might bring a powerhouse of a system, but surely they have to take retail price into account as well. Hopefully we'll find out soon.

 

[c0de]

I called Scorpio as soon as I saw an xbox controller in an Oculus box. There is no way MS was going to sit out of the VR train and let PS take all the console custom. So the reason for Scorpio is obvious.

The reason for Neo, if not for VR, is not at all obvious.

BUT DEBUNKED! Seriously, of course Neo will be there because of VR. That doesn't mean ps4 can't do VR. Xbox One could do it, too. Hell, the virtualboy could.
But Sony was always successful to sell PlayStation tech with a “boom“-effect. Something technically outstanding. Their Morpheus is a fine tech but the games need to convince people and as there are high necessities in terms of framerate performance they had to do something more powerful than the ps4.

 

[Tatsumi Oga]

So according to DC Neo is definitely using Polaris, but do we know anything else about Scorpio except for the 6tflops? Is it using Polaris as well? Or is that still all up in the air?

 

[LukasTaves]

The reason? Unlimited power

Spoiler

that's limited

tbh I think VR is the reason. I'm more curious to know if scorpio (if it is real) is a direct response to Neo.

No, that was on their roadmap at least since 2010.

 

[SpacLock]

It's going to be interesting to see if MS is sticking with the 6tflops or if they are going to lower it. I mean they might bring a powerhouse of a system, but surely they have to take retail price into account as well. Hopefully we'll find out soon.

Makes me wonder whether they know more about rumors surrounding PS4.5, and if so, whether they decide to save some $$$$ by toning her down a bit. Like you said, we will see.

 

[Tatsumi Oga]

Makes me wonder whether they know more about rumors surrounding PS4.5, and if so, whether they decide to save some $$$$ by toning her down a bit. Like you said, we will see.

Yup. If these reports are true it should be soon, so that would be E3. I still find it incredibly odd to talk about a system that is planned for late next year, if those reports are true.

Someone here or in another thread said Scorpio will definitely not use OR, but why do you think so? MS is coming with VR stuff too at E3, so will it be a device of their own then? Kind of doubt that. Ever since they started shipping the OR with a Xbox One controller it looked like it could end up like that, partnering with MS.

 

[dead monkey uk]

So according to DC Neo is definitely using Polaris, but do we know anything else about Scorpio except for the 6tflops? Is it using Polaris as well? Or is that still all up in the air?

We do not know this, the first rumor said between 5-6tflops. Everything with the Scorpio is just rumor at this point. Remember a month ago their it was a rumor was going around it would be 10tflops and would split the atom.

While I 100% believe the Scorpio is real, I would not be surprised if the final specs are very different from the current rumors.

 

[Chris1]

Makes me wonder whether they know more about rumors surrounding PS4.5, and if so, whether they decide to save some $$$$ by toning her down a bit. Like you said, we will see.

They probably knew about PS4 Neo way before any of us knew. If some random dude at Giant Bomb can find out I'm sure MS could aswell. Just like Sony probably knows what MS is doing too.

Well, it is rumored that MS was anticipating "Neo" for next year and not this year. So when they did their planning, it was probably around what's available around that timeframe.

The dude who originally leaked it here posted said he heard Spring 2017 though, so it could still be next year? Idk, personally I think this year to go with VR but who knows..

It would be a huge mistake but who says the Neo is coming out this year?

The first unofficial date I had heard for the Neos release was March of next year but there are mixed messages as of right now.

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

My theory is that the Neo is primarily a response to the inevitable Scorpio. MS goofed badly with the XB1 and were always going to move on sooner rather than later with a new next gen system. A 4 year lifespan for the XB1 and 1 year cross-over, similar to the original Xbox.

Sony knew this and so had two options -

1) Go toe to toe with them, righting off all they have gained with the PS4. Effectively starting a new next gen battle.

2) Release a new system a year earlier than the Scorpio. Not as powerful as Scorpio but one that continues to build on the PS4, keeping the marketshare intact. An upgraded PS4 as the leaks suggest.

I don't believe MS will be going the upgraded XB1 route, and the Scorpio will more or less be a true next gen system with its own games. A different philosophy to the Neo.

 

[justsomeguy]

I'm one of 12 people that had steel battalion.

I'm one of the millions that were jealous

 

[Zedox]

They probably knew about PS4 Neo way before any of us knew. If some random dude at Giant Bomb can find out I'm sure MS could aswell. Just like Sony probably knows what MS is doing too.



The dude who originally leaked it here posted said he heard Spring 2017 though, so it could still be next year? Idk, personally I think this year to go with VR but who knows..

Spring 2017 is the "announcement event" for Microsoft where they will reveal all of their new hardware like Surface Pro 5, Surfacebook 2, Band 3, and presumably Xbox Scorpio that coincides with the codename: "Redstone 2" Update to Windows 10 (it's as big as the Anniversary Update which is codenamed "Redstone 1". Think of it as an unveiling event.

 

[Chris1]

Spring 2017 is the "announcement event" for Microsoft where they will reveal all of their new hardware like Surface Pro 5, Surfacebook 2, Band 3, and presumably Xbox Scorpio that coincides with the codename: "Redstone 2" Update to Windows 10 (it's as big as the Anniversary Update which is codenamed "Redstone 1". Think of it as an unveiling event.

I meant PS Neo Spring 2017, not Xbox Scorpio Check my edit

You said MS expected Neo next year, not this year, but if Osiris is correct then it still might actually be next year.

 

[Zedox]

I meant PS Neo Spring 2017, not Xbox Scorpio Check my edit

Damnit. LOL! Darn ninja skills.

 

[gamz]

My theory is that the Neo is primarily a response to the inevitable Scorpio. MS goofed badly with the XB1 and were always going to move on sooner rather than later with a new next gen system. A 4 year lifespan for the XB1 and 1 year cross-over, similar to the original Xbox.

Sony knew this and so had two options -

1) Go toe to toe with them, righting off all they have gained with the PS4. Effectively starting a new next gen battle.

2) Release a new system a year earlier than the Scorpio. Not as powerful as Scorpio but one that continues to build on the PS4, keeping the marketshare intact. An upgraded PS4 as the leaks suggest.

I don't believe MS will be going the upgraded XB1 route, and the Scorpio will more or less be a true next gen system with its own games. A different philosophy to the Neo.

Agree. It's the only thing that makes sense. Since the upgrade for VR was debunked(?) then Sony has no reason to do this being the market leader. Except to answer MS.

 

[Bluenoser]

MS can't afford to drag their heels on this, whatever it is they are bringing I hope they deliver it right this time.

It won't help them as far as marketshare anyway. The dominant console sales wise has never been about power, but price, and public perception. Sony has that on lockdown right now, and I'm not sure MS can do anything about it.

Scorpio will appeal to people like you and me, sure, but to the masses? Wii showed they don't give a fuck.

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

Having any of you considered that the requirement of all games being compatible across the PS4>PS4K & XB1>Scorpio may only be in place until a certain point?

What's stopping Sony and Microsoft from saying all games released in 2019/2020 can be.....

1. PS4K/Scorpio exclusive
2. Cross-gen between PS4K/Scorpio and PS5, XB2 only, with no need for a base version running on PS4 and XB1.

 

[Obscuritas]

What is?

I'm still expecting the reasons behind all the "Neo is VR's son" argument, since OG PS4 will perfectly support PSVR games and, most of all, Sony isn't enough naive to think that a lot of people are willing to spend 800+$ in order to be a VR Neo-adopter.


Sony isn't giving and won't give a "mainstream" treatment to their VR business for now - and rightfully so. You don't know a single thing about mass market these days if you believe otherwise.

 

[gaming_noob]

I want MS to over deliver for once. They told devs they're aiming for 5-6 TFlops...then BOOM 6.45TF like the GTX1070..especially if it's out in Fall2017.

 

[MilkyJoe]

I'm still expecting the reasons behind all the "Neo is VR's son" argument, since OG PS4 will perfectly support PSVR games and, most of all, Sony isn't enough naive to think that a lot of people are willing to spend 800+$ in order to be a VR Neo-adopter.


Sony isn't giving and won't give a "mainstream" treatment to their VR business for now - and rightfully so. You don't know a single thing about mass market these days if you believe otherwise.

What?

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

I want MS to over deliver for once. They told devs they're aiming for 5-6 TFlops...then BOOM 6.45TF like the GTX1070..especially if it's out in Fall2017.

I think they will do their upmost to hit those targets. A clear 2TF difference has a much better ring to it for marketing purposes, as well as the obvious direct performance.

Where the Scorpio will really pull ahead is with a much better CPU than the Jaguar, along with higher bandwidth on the RAM setup, be it HBM2 or GDDR5X.

If they can get all 3 of the core components right, the Scorpio could be a really solid piece of hardware for a fixed spec games console.

 

[Strootman]

I was thinking that if microsoft will make third party devs release their games on windows store, they could add cross play beetwen xbox and pc for all games, with also the announcement of M/KB support for xbox consoles.

What are the chances of this happening?

 

[otakukidd]

Having any of you considered that the requirement of all games being compatible across the PS4>PS4K & XB1>Scorpio may only be in place until a certain point?

What's stopping Sony and Microsoft from saying all games released in 2019/2020 can be.....

1. PS4K/Scorpio exclusive
2. Cross-gen between PS4K/Scorpio and PS5, XB2 only, with no need for a base version running on PS4 and XB1.

I think that's probably what's going to happen. Each console will be supported for 5 to 6 years and then support will move to the console above. It will be very generational, one could even call it a generational cycle.

 

[otakukidd]

I was thinking that if microsoft will make third party devs release their games on windows store, they could add cross play beetwen xbox and pc for all games, with also the announcement of M/KB support for xbox consoles.

What are the chances of this happening?

You don't need the hes to be on the store for cross play anymore and good luck getting people to put their games on that store.

 

[...Scatter...]

lol no. I actually thought long and hard about this.

When I first heard all games would now be uwp games, and Xbox would have no more exclusives, I couldn't believe it. But then I realized why they would do such a thing.

When Scorpio is released, as a fully integrated PC, or with that win10 mode or whatever, gamers will have access to everything. Including Steam, and their full library of games.

But when all the new games are coming out on Xbox/PC they aren't buying them on steam. They're buying them on windows store, cause that's where they are available and that's the easiest place to get them.

Of course third party games could be bought on steam etc, but chances are gamers would have bought those games on their pc's regardless. There is nothing lost. It's going to happen.

Edit: it will be what Steambox was supposed to be.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

You don't need the hes to be on the store for cross play anymore and good luck getting people to put their games on that store.

Being able to make one version deploy across 2 platforms could potentially be enticing. As opposed to 3 versions.

 

[oldergamer]

lol no. I actually thought long and hard about this.

When I first heard all games would now be uwp games, and Xbox would have no more exclusives, I couldn't believe it. But then I realized why they would do such a thing.

When Scorpio is released, as a fully integrated PC, or with that win10 mode or whatever, gamers will have access to everything. Including Steam, and their full library of games.

But when all the new games are coming out on Xbox/PC they aren't buying them on steam. They're buying them on windows store, cause that's where they are available and that's the easiest place to get them.

Of course third party games could be bought on steam etc, but chances are gamers would have bought those games on their pc's regardless. There is nothing lost. It's going to happen.

Edit: it will be what Steambox was supposed to be.

You will be proved wrong soon enough. Just like every year someone has used similar thoughts.

 

[otakukidd]

Being able to make one version deploy across 2 platforms could potentially be enticing. As opposed to 3 versions.

Thought you could sell UWP games on other store fronts besides the windows store. If thats the cause it doesn't really help the windows store much