This and it's all about getting the branding back to where it was and move forward.
Polygon: Xbox Scorpio will be a ~6 TFLOP system (v PS4K's 4.14), unveil soon, Fall 17
- Thread starter BUNTING1243
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This and it's all about getting the branding back to where it was and move forward.
Some will for sure. I think the question is how many. Others will value other things more, such as having an established friends list on PS4 now, attachment to their achievement score, etc.
My hunch is that MS is making a mistake if they give Sony anything more than 3-6 months head start with the Neo. If Neo releases in time for x-mas and they don't that will hurt too. They are the one trying to take market share and they'll lose even more ground during the time Neo is out but Scorpio isn't. Plus many consumers that buy the Neo will have already made their upgrade for the time being. Scorpio will have been late to the party for them. If Neo can't make it out in time for x-mas and Scorpio is within a few months of it and is the more powerful device, MS can probably mitigate the damage of being later by marketing it well.
Power isn't the reason for MS losing, well it's part of the reason but you can't blame their loss on one single thing. Their fuck ups this gen is a combination of the following (in no particular order)
1) $100 more
2) Forced Kinect that nobody wanted
3) DRM & people still thinking you can't trade used games
4) Terrible messaging at launch and a lot of things that rubbed people the wrong way (we've got a 360 for you, it's a media device not a gaming device etc)
5) Power
And now that we're so far into the generation the big main one right now is 6) Their friends have a PS4 because of #1-5.
It's not a one thing that messed the Xbox up this gen, it's just *everything* they done or said at launch basically.
1) $100 more
2) Forced Kinect that nobody wanted
3) DRM & people still thinking you can't trade used games
4) Terrible messaging at launch and a lot of things that rubbed people the wrong way (we've got a 360 for you, it's a media device not a gaming device etc)
5) Power
And now that we're so far into the generation the big main one right now is 6) Their friends have a PS4 because of #1-5.
It's not a one thing that messed the Xbox up this gen, it's just *everything* they done or said at launch basically.
Obscuritas
Member
Like they were on Xbox compared to PS2?
Nobody is understimating the power advantage, but it's only one of the numerous factors that determined the PS4 lead. Sony tried to push the "best place where to play" narrative and they succeeded, and that narrative will probably stand even if you'll have better AA/frame rate/shadows/grass on Scorpio.
Also what Zedox just said.
It's also clear to me we aren't doing "gens" anymore, or at least MS won't be and I don't think Sony will either. It's going to be iterative upgrades from here on out so we're in a whole new world.
MS will probably never catch up to Sony sales wise, but they may have one iterative design that sells better, but still be behind in overall sales of hardware. Which is why I think Sony will even begin mentioning a form of "users" (though they will still mention sales #'s since they're #1) as that # will keep growing for both of them over time.
I don't know where the future will lead us in this new way of doing things, but I'm pretty excited to see how it all works out. I do think it's smart for MS to basically merge PC and Xbox for their first party games going forward.
MS will probably never catch up to Sony sales wise, but they may have one iterative design that sells better, but still be behind in overall sales of hardware. Which is why I think Sony will even begin mentioning a form of "users" (though they will still mention sales #'s since they're #1) as that # will keep growing for both of them over time.
I don't know where the future will lead us in this new way of doing things, but I'm pretty excited to see how it all works out. I do think it's smart for MS to basically merge PC and Xbox for their first party games going forward.
Bitch Pudding
Member
+ they miss the juggernaut system sellers of the XBOX360 era which (more than) made up for the smaller 1st party games library.
KinofChaos
Banned
More like people are over selling it. Price, World wide brand power, xbox not having a year to toe market itself , the x1 reveal were all bigger factors.
Sony won't go to users because their 'ecosystem' will consist of mostly the console. Unless they branch out. They will keep with console sales numbers because that's their strength. MS will stick with users because that will be their strength with the Store merger.
Black Republican
Member
nearly 7k posts, goddamn my man
Ya that makes sense, I didn't think of that.
LukasTaves
Member
At some point yeah. But we are many years away from machines with 5GB of ram just for games and 1teraflop of performance being just too limiting for game play.
oldergamer
Member
Umm were seeing both of those happening now! That's not years away.
This is exactly the camp I've resided in during this gen. Owned my PS4 from the beginning and have loved it. No complaints in any regard. It's been one of my favorite consoles.
If the Scorpio truly is the more powerful machine compard to Neo, AND can arrive at a reasonable price point ($450 or less), AND can boast graphically superior multiplats then it will be time to jump in.
Primethius
Banned
The whole PS4 selling more then XB1 due to power as a huge factor doesn't really hold up due to November and December 2014. Where a cheaper XB1 outsold PS4 by a gigantic margin.
You'd think power wouldve prevented closing the gap by half at the time. But it didnt.
Price was a far bigger factor in the US.
You'd think power wouldve prevented closing the gap by half at the time. But it didnt.
Price was a far bigger factor in the US.
geordiemp
Member
The specs that we have for the PS4 Neo = 4.197888 TFLOPS so why did they take it down to 4.14TFLOPS for this article? it only take a few seconds to work out that math so why are people who work on a website not being fact checked before they post stuff?
When you put it in a table like that, it shows how little is being boosted to CPU and Bandwidth. Maybe the newer compression will help the bandwidth, but dat CPU ?
Wish we knew more of the CPU ugrade osirisblack was pertaining to ?
Yea, I think what people need to understand that the Xbox One and PS4 are going to be sold for many years to come but if you think about it, we really only "need" those systems for like what, 2-3 more years for what we think of it as a "gen". That would be 5-6 years and that's not bad for those machines and those libraries will continue to grow. If the XBO and PS4 get "left behind" by year end of 2018/2019, who of the "core audience" is really going to be mad when the systems came out 2013?
Let's say 3 more years of these systems, if you want more power, you get the upgraded ones (or if you want VR) but you still get all the games (non-VR) on the lesser powerful ones. That's good support in my opinion.
People had big libraries on Xbox 360, too. Didn't stop them from switching to PlayStation.
I already choose XB1 for multi-platform games unless the frame rate is atrociously bad on it for some reason. The controller difference is big for me. I'll def go for Scorpio.
By 2018/9 I could see a "puck" type device being sold for $100 that could play Bone games and earlier too. What I would really like to see is the capability for devices to use P2P capabilities to stream game data(not video) to these node devices from a main networked storage device. This could be the main console or pc. That way these smaller devices don't need large storage requirements or externally attached storage and don't need to go across the internet.
Who were these people?
Sure if you don't understand how upscaling works that might seem illogical to you but if you did you would know 1080 upscales perfectly to 4K. 716p, 720p, and 900p does not.
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
Getting people on your "ecosystem" seems far more important at the moment. I wonder if Microsoft could broker any kind of offer that would allow multiplats owned by a single PSN account to be playable on a single XBL account to sweeten the transfer?
Caayn
Member
If you did then why did you mention it? 720p upscales by a factor of 3 to 4K but it does not scale to 1080p was my point.
Your argument was aimed at a complete strawman. First I would like to know who were these people? Are there any example you can provide on this forum
because those people would have every right to complain about native resolution if a) they had a 1080p screen or b) were playing 900p or 716p games on a 4K or 1080p display.
It's pretty bad you even have to ask people to do the math.
3840/1280 = 3.0
2160/720 = 3.0
8,294,400/921,600 = 9.0
The way you worded this sentence sounds like you're saying 720p doesn't scale perfectly to 4k.
There was no need to ask already did it. The point was that 720p does not scale to 1080p. Unlike 1080p to 4K. That last calculation is also completely pointless unless you had a 1D screen.
Except that everything coming out of an Xbox One or PS4 gets scaled to 1080p first. 720p scaled to 1080p and then scaled again to 4k suffers along the way.
PS4 @330 outsells xbone @270 inc. Quantum Break and Alan Wake significantly.
It's safe to say that the brand is in serious trouble. Xbox is "big" in that it's well known, especially in the 360 days ads were ubiquitous. But nowadays it's reputation that bad, that a perceived 100+ price difference can't sway customers decisions.
The messaging that announces a departure from the failed Xbox One but doesn't let Xbox one buyers feel abandoned will be hard to pull off and without the Xbox reboot I can't see them improve in Germany. Angering the core fans is a bad move for the US market, so that won't happen.
professor_t
Member
I think this is a pretty good list, but I WOULD put them in a particular order, and I would keep #1 right where you have it.
Setting aside the early adopters, who are probably like the folks on GAF, I wouldn't be surprised if many gamers knew jack shit about the relative power of each system (or at least what it meant in real world terms) or which systems would be getting which games.
What they knew, clear as day, is that one system was $100 cheaper than another, comparable system. That's a pretty easy choice for a lot of people.
The biggest problem with "Scorpio" is that it's essentially going to be the Windows xerox copy of a Steambox. A non-upgradable, likely overpriced PC with a limited number of games that can be had on alternative hardware and for developers it's going to be just another slight PC configuration to contend with possibly without a large installed base of users. In other words the development methodology for a lot of devs is going to be to tune for the lowest common denominator (good for devs, maybe, not really great for all consumers.)
I don't see any advantage to buying an XBone over an actual computer right now, or using the gaming rig I have especially since I don't use Media Center. I have to believe a lot of people may think the same way when Gears of War, Cuphead and the next Halo etc. are all going to be on Windows. As I've said I knew XBone with the authentication etc. was end of XBox as a physical console and probably the end of the brand altogether in a couple of years.
XBox will likely just stand for a collection of gaming peripherals in a couple of years, which explains the the importance of the competitive edition Xbox controller from MS now, atleast to me.
I don't see any advantage to buying an XBone over an actual computer right now, or using the gaming rig I have especially since I don't use Media Center. I have to believe a lot of people may think the same way when Gears of War, Cuphead and the next Halo etc. are all going to be on Windows. As I've said I knew XBone with the authentication etc. was end of XBox as a physical console and probably the end of the brand altogether in a couple of years.
XBox will likely just stand for a collection of gaming peripherals in a couple of years, which explains the the importance of the competitive edition Xbox controller from MS now, atleast to me.
You do realize what you explained in the first paragraph is the exact same for the PS4 right? Now granted PS4 has more exclusive Japanese games, but more and more of those are also found on PC now.
Also about your 2nd paragraph the Scorpio is not for those PC Gamers like myself and you, it's for those who don't want to game on PC. I have quite a few friends who refuse to game on PC because they are on their desktop for 9-10+ hours a day due to their jobs, so they just want to come home and plop down and play a game on their console.
LukasTaves
Member
Are we? What type of game currently just couldn't run on a ps4/xbone just by downgrading the graphical fidelity?
Caayn
Member
Then if you know how upscaling works you should know that very few screens actually scale by a perfect x2 in both dimensions. TV's especially usually have their own upscaling algorithm which differs per manufacturer.
So yes on paper perfect scaling is nice but in reality it's not there most of the time. Hence my post.
And I'm not going to point out names. There's no need to act dumb, if you've followed DF threads since the start of the generations you should already know.
That said, I'm kinda scratching my head why you appear so defensive. But that's probably just me.
True, but that wasn't my point. However if you set the console to output 720p it doesn't scale anything, then again I doubt that many people would actually do that and change it per game.
Edit: I'll leave it with this post. I've said what I wanted to say and I've no intention of dragging this on any further.
MilkyJoe
Member
But if you already own a PS4 then you can still hang onto is and that ceases to be an issue,
I used to play on PC exclusively for years. The last consoles I had before getting a PS3 were the SNES and Genesis. Here are some reasons why I don't play much on PC anymore.
- I play mostly MP FPS games and I don't want to have to use a keyboard/mouse or else be at a disadvantage. Side note - for this reason some of the rumors about keyboard/mouse support on Scorpio concern me.
- Related to above, I don't want to have to spend the time and energy tweaking sliders, resolution, fov, etc. for the biggest competitive advantage (or avoiding a disadvantage). I also don't want to have to screw around with device drivers and SW issues.
- I don't want to have to deal with cheaters. Yes they exist on console but I think it is much less frequent.
- I don't want to constantly be chasing the leading edge. If the iterative model on consoles takes off and I upgrade every 3-4 years and resell my old box(es) that seems about perfect for me. On PC, there is constantly something better coming out.
- I want to play in my living room on a huge screen without any compromises or disadvantage in MP games.
- Minor but I'd prefer to play the MP games I play where there is the largest player count. These days that's usually on console.
- Console exclusives.
Well Sony doesn't publish all there first party games on PC. So there's still far more exclusive games to PS platfrom comapred to Xbox which with Scorpio may have none.
I disagree. We've had several generations show that the stronger console that comes out later doesn't somehow make people jump on board with them. Example? Xbox with PS2. PS3 with Wii. Vita with 3DS. What was the main determining factor for those systems having trouble? Price and perception.
I really think people are overestimating the general public's want for more powerful systems as opposed to powerful systems that hit a price range that is acceptable. Scorpio could be 10 TFlops and gives you BC from now until the end of the time, but if that price is too much, they are DOA. Just look at the Xbone. MS was on top of the world at the end of last generation with them selling 360 extremely well. You even had people claim MS was going to win this gen too. What actually happened? People went to PS4 instead and not because of the power difference, but because the power difference in relation to the price gap. Why would the more expensive system be weaker? That turned people off and that's what is going to determine how the market reacts to Scorpio. All Sony has to do is keep holding up the value of the system and keep players in their ecosystem.
Sony also doesn't own the PC platform and have to support it like Microsoft does.
It's more profitable and smarter to release on both Windows 10 and Xbox for Microsoft.
Sony's platform is mainly the console. Microsoft's platform is the console + pc. Scorpio doesn't need to have "exclusives". Neo doesn't need to have "exclusives". They need to perform. Things are changing, let go of the past.
Mr Reasonable
Completely Unreasonable
Edit: deleted to not be provocative.
^^ this
Neo doesn't have exclusive but PS as a whole has and it's tied to Sony hardware that is not the case with MS where you buy PC from other sources. So PS games stay exclusive to Sony hardware, MS first party games are not exlusive to MS hardware.
Isn't the only place you can buy MS Win10 games, from the Win10 store?
I know they've got some stuff on Steam but that doesn't look like it'll be in their plans going forward
Yeah there are but I'm talking about hardware and games associated with it.
What's the difference between buying on 1 piece of plastic and another...? MS get's all the money either way..
That's like saying Sony allowing you to buy games from the web store doesn't count because you don't need to buy it on Sony hardware.. I mean, it's the same thing really?
You don't have to buy MS hardware to play their first party games. That's the point.
InquisitorAles
Member
Microsoft main priority not hardware, they mostly selling software. It's not a big problem for them, while you keep using Windows 10, on Xbox or PC.
Sure but it's something to think about and it may affect Scorpio sales. Xbox is more about being a service now.