Polygon: Xbox Scorpio will be a ~6 TFLOP system (v PS4K's 4.14), unveil soon, Fall 17

8 teraflops is the max possible, and thats only if they go bat shit insane with the thermals ala 360 / PS3.

Xbone has 90mm2 allocated for the GPU.
If they double the die space, and clock to 1.2ghz, they'll have 1.3 x 6 = 7.8 teraflops.

This'll mean the GPU itself is around 150W and total system power would be 180 wattish.
 
wapplew said:
6TF is not final, could be 8 or 10.
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I could see them doing that if they are requiring Scorpio to run a Forza Motorsport game at 4k 60fps. They've already dipped their toe in it with Apex on high end PC GPUs.

They used Forza 5 as reference for 1080p 60fps on XB1 during development of that system. So there is a precedent.
 
timlot said:
I could see them doing that if they are requiring Scorpio to run a Forza Motorsport game at 4k 60fps. They've already dipped their toe in it with Apex on high end PC GPUs.

They used Forza 5 as reference for 1080p 60fps on XB1 during development of that system. So there is a precedent.
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I think you got your info incorrect. That test they did was AFTER Forza 5 came out on Xbox One. It was used to test how easy it would be for them to move it to PC as an experiment...it had nothing to do with them testing it for the Xbox One version.
 
pastrami said:
So people are taking 6TF to the bank, but when the sources said late 2017, they really meant 2016 or early 2017. Sometimes I just don't understand.
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I imagine soon those TFLOPS will hit the stratosphere, especially if cloud gaming enters the picture. People are speaking about the flop count as if it's written in stone, so it went from 5.5 to 6TF... and so yes, it may keep climbing.
 
KinofChaos said:
Instead of condescension , at least attempt to post where I am wrong? I gladly admit I was not fully aware of the hardware was out already, instead people are more concerned with piling on someone and making cracks, Interesting . Still don't see anyway a 6 TFLOP scorpio launches the same time as NEO and is a lot more powerful. Only 1 person attempted to post sensibly to give me reasons instead of posts like "LOL BOOKMARKING". I joined gaf because I thought it was a place beyond that stuff, I was wrong. Not really any better then any other message board sadly.
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don't take it personally. If a new junior poster appears bashing Sony they're quick to get labelled an astroturfing shill by some. At least you're avoiding that.
 
Proelite said:
8 teraflops is the max possible, and thats only if they go bat shit insane with the thermals ala 360 / PS3.

Xbone has 90mm2 allocated for the GPU.
If they double the die space, and clock to 1.2ghz, they'll have 1.3 x 6 = 7.8 teraflops.

This'll mean the GPU itself is around 150W and total system power would be 180 wattish.
Click to expand...
For Scorpio, sure.
We can also deduce that Scorpio's successor will be a 20TF+ system, yes? Yes.
And be factually correct by that time.
 
Would honestly be surprised if MS decided to take a significant loss on the system unless it's an entirely new generation for them.

What's the point otherwise? It's a lose-lose situation for them in an iterative situation (where XB1 is still the base for all titles). Scorpios not gonna sell enough go justify selling at a significant loss.

I'm expecting it to be priced appropriate with the specs.
 
i'm a novice when it comes to cpus, gpus pricing etc but is it certain to be the rx480 and not the forthcoming rx490 since the later release?
 
thelastword said:
I imagine soon those TFLOPS will hit the stratosphere, especially if cloud gaming enters the picture. People are speaking about the flop count as if it's written in stone, so it went from 5.5 to 6TF... and so yes, it may keep climbing.
Click to expand...

I still wonder how those specs are going to be utilized, mostly something akin to what happened with 3rd party games on PS2 vs XB, an additional effect here and there... better textures, better performance. But nothing major in the grand scheme of things, unless MS allows for Scorpio exclusive games and even then, 3rd parties won't likely bother unless they get loads of moola.
 
pixelation said:
I still wonder how those specs are going to be utilized, mostly something akin to what happened with 3rd party games on PS2 vs XB, an additional effect here and there... better textures, better performance. But nothing major in the grand scheme of things, unless MS allows for Scorpio exclusive games and even then, 3rd parties won't likely bother unless they get loads of moola.
Click to expand...

It doesn't matter, being the most powerful is top priority, also affordable and release this year.
 
pixelation said:
I still wonder how those specs are going to be utilized, mostly something akin to what happened with 3rd party games on PS2 vs XB, an additional effect here and there... better textures, better performance. But nothing major in the grand scheme of things, unless MS allows for Scorpio exclusive games and even then, 3rd parties won't likely bother unless they get loads of moola.
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I think the rumors are pointing to Scorpio supporting Oculus Rift.
 
pixelation said:
I still wonder how those specs are going to be utilized, mostly something akin to what happened with 3rd party games on PS2 vs XB, an additional effect here and there... better textures, better performance. But nothing major in the grand scheme of things, unless MS allows for Scorpio exclusive games and even then, 3rd parties won't likely bother unless they get loads of moola.
Click to expand...

I think with UWA Microsoft is looking at the idea of games being created to their full potential and scaling to any of their devices you own. So made with Scorpio in mind but can scale down to Xbox one vanilla with out the bells and whistles of the high end systems allow.
 
I Reclaim3mer 117 said:
I think with UWA Microsoft is looking at the idea of games being created to their full potential and scaling to any of their devices you own. So made with Scorpio in mind but can scale down to Xbox one vanilla with out the bells and whistles of the high end systems allow.
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at some point it's not about graphics though, you're going to reach a point where there's gameplay things that developers want to do that will be held back by older machines. at this point you have to consider dropping support for older machines to a point
 
Montresor said:
So what's the best case scenario?

*Microsoft announces Scorpio this E3
*Scorpio has 6 TFLOPS
*Scorpio comes out this November alongside PS4K Neo.
*Scorpio costs $400 USD (which means Microsoft needs to take a loss on every sale right?)
*Scorpio is compatible with Oculus Rift for VR

*MS also announces an XB1 Slim at a reduced price compared to the current model
*Moving forward, all XB1 games are forward compatible with Scorpio
*Scorpio is 100% backward compatible with XB1 and the current 360 BC solution

That would make for a pretty awesome E3. But I still want huge surprise game announcements. I want an Xbox year of dreams. So Alan Wake 2, Banjo Kazooie 3, Half Life 3.

I know I'm setting myself up for disappointment.
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Xbox year of dreams, my my my, that's some delicious hope you're drinking.

Let's add.... MS buys exclusive license to some of Sega's storied and dormant franchises.... Skies of Arcadia, Virtua On, Vectorman, Shinobi, Nights.. MS launches online initiative asking gamers to take command of the Xbox bank account for purchasing your personal favorite franchise.... Platinum, bluepoint, and iron galaxy developing...
 
Hawk269 said:
I think you got your info incorrect. That test they did was AFTER Forza 5 came out on Xbox One. It was used to test how easy it would be for them to move it to PC as an experiment...it had nothing to do with them testing it for the Xbox One version.
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I think you are confusing two different things. Forza 5 was being developed in conjunction with the XBox One development in 2012/13. Turn 10 was instrumental is shaping the system design to make sure Microsoft's signature racing game ran at 1080p60fps.

If the past is prologue I can see them using the next Forza game on Scorpio benchmarked to 4K 60fps. They already have an example of the engine doing it with Apex on PC. But, only the top of the line PC GPU would run at 4K60fps "locked". Those are in the 8-10 teraflop range.

Thats why its not out of the realm that Scorpio will actually be well above 6TFs.
 
FordGTGuy said:
I like how the Neo being upclocked is plausible to some but the Scorpio being upclocked is absurd.
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Yeah seems funny how all of a sudden we seem to be hearing about specs not being "final" on the Neo post Scorpio leak. Despite dev kits apparently being in the wild.

Be curious to hear how many consoles in history drastically altered their specs once dev kits went out.
 
icespide said:
at some point it's not about graphics though, you're going to reach a point where there's gameplay things that developers want to do that will be held back by older machines. at this point you have to consider dropping support for older machines to a point
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Yeah you're absolutely right I would love things to get to that point. Right now though it's what people care about Also it's what will justify the purchase from the jump that can easily show the difference and why you need to have one.
 
Collingwood said:
Yeah seems funny how all of a sudden we seem to be hearing about specs not being "final" on the Neo post Scorpio leak. Despite dev kits apparently being in the wild.

Be curious to hear how many consoles in history drastically altered their specs once dev kits went out.
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Well, if Scorpio spec not final and no dev kit available yet but still manage to release this year, nothing is impossible.
It's your imaginary console vs my imaginary console, your leaks against my leaks, dream big!
 
Collingwood said:
Yeah seems funny how all of a sudden we seem to be hearing about specs not being "final" on the Neo post Scorpio leak. Despite dev kits apparently being in the wild.
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The info was there before, OsirisBlack posted as much back in March when the first Neo details started leaking. But yeah, some people who were content with the Neo specs that leaked, are now bringing that "non final" aspect up after the Scorpio is said to be more powerful, which is funny.
 
FordGTGuy said:
I like how the Neo being upclocked is plausible to some but the Scorpio being upclocked is absurd.
Click to expand...

The reason most people assume that the Neo can be upclocked whilst the Scorpio can't, is due to them believing that they would use the same GPU but at different clocks.

Therefore, if the leaks are true and people's general interpretations are also true about the GPU, this would mean the Neo is an underclocked 480 and the Scorpio is a 480 clocked at stock or potentially even higher.

Due to this Sony would have more wiggle room when it comes to thermal and power management (they could for example just like for like clock it if their cooling system would allow it) comparatively to Microsoft who would be at the point that they would need to include an expensive cooling system to go higher as well as they would greatly expand the potential for hardware failure, something which Sony also risk with an upclock.

Please note I'm ignoring CPU differences which would also effect these decisions.
 
farisr said:
The info was there before, OsirisBlack posted as much back in March when the first Neo details started leaking. But yeah, some people who were content with the Neo specs that leaked, are now bringing that "non final" aspect up after the Scorpio is said to be more powerful, which is funny.
Click to expand...

But the Neo specs are great. 4.whatever TF vs 1.8 is a huge bump. Sony is the dominant market leader. Why the "concern" because Micrisoft will bring out a more powerful console? It won't affect the sales trajectory of the consoles.
 
Collingwood said:
But the Neo specs are great. 4.whatever TF vs 1.8 is a huge bump. Sony is the dominant market leader. Why the "concern" because Micrisoft will bring out a more powerful console? It won't affect the sales trajectory of the consoles.
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Precisely. I doubt Sonys going to change it (or that certain posters are gonna stop wishfully hoping). The rumors say they are roughly 6-7 months apart and the power difference definitely seems to be in line with that.

I'm really interested to see how the market will react.
 
wapplew said:
6TF is not final, could be 8 or 10.
Click to expand...

Do you understand just how much of a variance in clockrate, thermals, and overall costs are for something like that? Microsoft isn't stupid enough to hold back 50-100% extra spare performance because- "WE GOTTA FIGHT CONSOLE WARS!".
 
FordGTGuy said:
I like how the Neo being upclocked is plausible to some but the Scorpio being upclocked is absurd.
Click to expand...

I personally also like how Scorpio can release this year, somehow with a stronger CPU, a stronger GPU and better RAM while being the same price or lower.

Both sides unfortunately are being fanboyish and its embarrassing to me, when this kind of thing does little to determine each console's relative success
 
thuway said:
Do you understand just how much of a variance in clockrate, thermals, and overall costs are for something like that? Microsoft isn't stupid enough to hold back 50-100% extra spare performance because- "WE GOTTA FIGHT CONSOLE WARS!".
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I'm 100% certain that they're aware of the console wars, regret being on the wrong side of them, and realize they have to do whatever they can to reverse the publicity wars. You should be fairly familiar with the piling on effect of negative publicity, in the gamer world especially.

They may not have quite the contingency plan outlined by the poster, but I would assume they've had intel on Sony's hardware position and have some sort of contingency plan to become the most powerful console, no matter what the competition does.
 
Inuhanyou said:
I personally also like how Scorpio can release this year, somehow with a stronger CPU, a stronger GPU and better RAM while being the same price or lower.

Both sides unfortunately are being fanboyish and its embarrassing to me, when this kind of thing does little to determine each console's relative success
Click to expand...

I think I personally have at least attempted to explain my thought process. I have no idea about the ram though and I've never commented on it. I assume Microsoft would simply switch to GDDR5.

But I thought I had fairly plausible explanations for the CPU/GPU/APU situation.

The funny part is, that now, according to digital foundry, Neo's GPU is effectively a match for Scorpio's, which only FURTHERS the argument that Scorpio could release this year. If Sony could get that level of GPU into a 2016 machine, why can't Microsoft?

As to the CPU? That becomes trickier because ZEN embedded isn't expected till next year so maybe MS isn't using Zen if going for 2016?
 
I am with Jeff on this. It's possible MS will use a low clocked vega chip with HBM2. The memory will be much faster and free up some bottle necks the Xbox one already faces. If MS were to use a 480 for a 2017 system it would be overclocked or just much faster and closer to the spec that you'd buy in the store. Either way I still see it being faster than the Neo. Like less than 50% however.
 
Collingwood said:
I think I personally have at least attempted to explain my thought process. I have no idea about the ram though and I've never commented on it. I assume Microsoft would simply switch to GDDR5.

But I thought I had fairly plausible explanations for the CPU/GPU/APU situation.

The funny part is, that now, according to digital foundry, Neo's GPU is effectively a match for Scorpio's, which only FURTHERS the argument that Scorpio could release this year. If Sony could get that level of GPU into a 2016 machine, why can't Microsoft?

As to the CPU? That becomes trickier because ZEN embedded isn't expected till next year so maybe MS isn't using Zen if going for 2016?
Click to expand...

That would destroy any argument they were making for a 'huge' upgrade. I've been saying this whole time that Zen is going to be the thing that defines any next gen upgrade, regardless of the GPU power.

Hell you could stick zen in a basic PS4 right now with the same amount of cores PS4 has available, and ride that till 2019 if the jump in CPU power is to be believed.

If they want to change the memory space, going to GDDR5, and then having to switch to HBM2 sometime down the line makes little sense if there is a viable alternative coming next year.
 
Collingwood said:
I think I personally have at least attempted to explain my thought process. I have no idea about the ram though and I've never commented on it. I assume Microsoft would simply switch to GDDR5.

But I thought I had fairly plausible explanations for the CPU/GPU/APU situation.

The funny part is, that now, according to digital foundry, Neo's GPU is effectively a match for Scorpio's, which only FURTHERS the argument that Scorpio could release this year. If Sony could get that level of GPU into a 2016 machine, why can't Microsoft?

As to the CPU? That becomes trickier because ZEN embedded isn't expected till next year so maybe MS isn't using Zen if going for 2016?
Click to expand...

No one knows anything about Scorpio's GPU, not sure where this keeps coming from. Unless I missed something, but this seems to be a lot of hoping and wishing that this ends up being the case with no concrete evidence. Scropio is much more of a mystery than new is.
 
Inuhanyou said:
That would destroy any argument they were making for a 'huge' upgrade. I've been saying this whole time that Zen is going to be the thing that defines any next gen upgrade, regardless of the GPU power.

If they want to change the memory space, going to GDDR5, and then having to switch to HBM2 sometime down the line makes little sense if there is a viable alternative coming next year.
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Well no.

5TF IS a huge upgrade on 1.3TF. So that depends on whose argument you think is being destroyed. Guys on the forums? Yeah maybe.

But that's it. Ultimately the whole lot is speculation. We have posters saying definitively that Microsift won't want to bleed on this console when the complete opposite could be true which suddenly opens the door for all kinds of possibilities.

Personally I'm loving hearing both (reasonable) sides of the argument. I'm learning a lot.
 
CrimsonEclipse said:
No one knows anything about Scorpio's GPU, not sure where this keeps coming from. Unless I missed something, but this seems to be a lot of hoping and wishing that this ends up being the case with no concrete evidence. Scropio is much more of a mystery than new is.
Click to expand...

What we do know is what their targets are for the GPU, which lines up with a lesser Vega equivalent, and stronger HMB2 and Zen internals next year.

If they were launching this year with an upclocked Polaris with the same components they have been using, it would have been leaked at this point is what i think

Collingwood said:
Well no.

5TF IS a huge upgrade on 1.3TF. So that depends on whose argument you think is being destroyed. Guys on the forums? Yeah maybe.

But that's it. Ultimately the whole lot is speculation. We have posters saying definitively that Microsift won't want to bleed on this console when the complete opposite could be true which suddenly opens the door for all kinds of possibilities.

Personally I'm loving hearing both (reasonable) sides of the argument. I'm learning a lot.
Click to expand...

As has been said with NEO, the GPU power will to some effect be wasted regardless using the same CPU's they have now. Hell, PS4's GPU is not being utilized as far as it could be with Jaguar, the design was lopsided from the start.

So Scorpio, jumping on that train would not be all that smart if they were looking for a huge upgrade, or atleast willing to invest in a new device like this
 
One thing that is interesting is everybody has a different definition of what Phil is talking about when he says he doesn't want a small jump . The 4 Tflop upgrade that the Neo is getting could be what he considers a large upgrade and shipping this year could work for him. I honestly do not know but it will be interesting
 
Could pr say something like its a 400% increase when they compare the jump from x1 to scorpio? Assuming its like 5.5tf.

Or am i really bad at mathssssssss
 
anothertech said:
Calling it now: Sony going to pull a 'oh you thought it was 4x the performance? It's actually 8x the performance' and MS thrown under the bus again...
Click to expand...

Neo is currently a little over 2x perf.

8x would make it something like 12 tflops. That's not achievable with 14nm. 8 tflops is the max for a huge and hot console ala PS3.
 
Proelite said:
Neo is currently a little over 2x perf.

8x would make it something like 12 tflops. That's not achievable with 14nm. 8 tflops is the max for a huge and hot console ala PS3.
Click to expand...

12tflops is fully possible with 14nm, its just not possible in a console form factor, much less with the power draw and price Sony would want. i expect high end Vega to hit beyond 12tflops next year on desktops.
 
christ why do I have 174 posts in this thread? must have been real bored at work this week. I'm bowing out of this discussion for awhile. I love you all
 
I think it's fucking stupid to release new consoles that early.
even if they will(should) "coexist" with PS4 and Xbone.

I hate the VR trend/thing; so I'm probably the only one.

also: I'm really curious about heat issues.
 
Hey guise believe it's the year of dreams 2, MINIMUM 7 TFLOPS and prolly more like 10 TFLOPS if you relly think about it. Phil wouldn't want SCORPS wit anything less for 1st class xboxerz
 
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