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[A Link to the Past]

Not sure if you're serious. Do you even know why we celebrate pride? Christians have been killing gay people in the US for decades. Don't pretend like your shit don't stink.

Seriously. We obviously cannot discount the harm that Muslims have done to LGBT people, but the only way you can act as though Christians are innocent is if you ignore history.

 

[Plumbob]

I'm not religious, so my fecal matter is offtopic here

Fair enough.

 

[Square2015]

Leviticus 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Post that Quranic verse from earlier in the thread and let's compare.

 

[dejay]

Wow, just woke up to this. A sad moment in history for many communities in the US.

 

[Nipo]

In Quran whoever kills an innocent (no matter who he is), it is as if he has killed all mankind ..

My sincere sympathy to the families for this barbaric and shocking act and I say it as a muslim and homosexual and before all that a human being.

Are gays and atheists seen as innocents? Or is that considered a crime against the religion?

 

[B.O.O.M]

ugh and now 5 killed in New Mexico (not sure if this was mentioned already). Husband killed his wife and his 4 kids

I should just stay home..forever

Edit: Here's the link for anyone who wants to know

https://www.facebook.com/RoswellPoliceSS/?fref=nf

Roswell New Mexico

 

[EdibleKnife]

Not sure if you're serious. Do you even know why we celebrate pride? Christians have been killing gay people in the US for decades. Don't pretend like your shit don't stink.

And if they don't do it directly, they convince others to where they can spread their influence

Post that Quranic verse from earlier in the thread and let's compare.

Why? You posted that Christian scripture doesn't approve of killing homosexuals and you were wrong. No comparison needed. Both religions promote violence. And just like the Quran, this is the same bible used with Christian's today.

 

[orochi91]

Guns are a problem, agreed

don't you also agree that homophobia in Islamic scripture is also a problem?

They both don't have to be mutually exclusive to each other

Agreed wholeheartedly, as evidenced by my posts about that topic in past threads.

But surely even you'd agree that linking Islamic extremism to the entirety of the US's Muslim population (~3.5 million people), as that poster did, is ridiculous.

 

[Plumbob]

It doesn't outright condone killing gays, as these imams in Florida continue to.

Leviticus bae

 

[A Link to the Past]

I'm not religious, so my fecal matter is offtopic here



Interesting... any links?

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2015/...ve-sex-marriage-white-evangelical-christians/

Neither are very impressive statistics for their respective groups of course

It doesn't outright condone killing gays, as these imams in Florida continue to.

Why do people like you think that you can make such an obviously untrue statement in a big thread like this without getting called out on it

 

[Henkka]

The point is, no matter the reason why, it still stands to reason that we do not create laws to address the fact that men are more dangerous with a firearm than women. We don't have stricter background checks for men.

Wait, are you saying we should have stricter checks for men or not? I'm unsure what you're saying here.

 

[esmith08734]

America is a place where you can be shot by whomever, wherever, whenever, and that's that. Things need to be changed. Offering prayers and then forgetting about it until the next tragic event comes and re-offering more prayers is NOT how to go about this.

 

[ElTorro]

In Quran whoever kills an innocent (no matter who he is), it is as if he has killed all mankind ..

Read that quote in context.

On account of [his deed], We decreed to the Children of Israel that if anyone kills a person—unless in retribution for murder or spreading corruption in the land—it is as if he kills all mankind, while if any saves a life it is as if he saves the lives of all mankind. Our messengers came to them with clear signs, but many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.

Those who wage war against God and His Messenger and strive to spread corruption in the land should be punished by death, crucifixion, the amputation of an alternate hand and foot, a or banishment from the land: a disgrace for them in this world, and then a terrible punishment in the Hereafter, unless they repent before you overpower them—in that case bear in mind that God is forgiving and merciful.

"Corruption" is usually meant as any sinful act.

 

[orochi91]

Google to the rescue:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

That poster asked "How many Muslims in the US take it seriously to the point of committing violence?", no where in that research did it discuss that.

There's a vast difference in advocating outright violence and thinking something should be discouraged.

There's no need to conflate the two expressions as if they're the same thing.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Wait, are you saying we should have stricter checks for men or not? I'm unsure what you're saying here.

I'm saying that we should be consistent. If we are to ban Muslims from gun ownership, we should do the same with men - and there's an even stronger argument for why we should, as it would do more to reduce gun crimes than just banning Muslims, if we were going down the ban route.

 

[Oriel]

Tomorrow Mr. Trump will deliver a major speech to further address this terrorist attack, immigration, and national security. The speech will be delivered at the New Hampshire Institute of Politics at St. Anselm's College. For more information please visit Donaldjtrump.com.

He's already said he wants a ban on new Muslim arrivals to the US. What's his latest brain fart going to be? Deport all US Muslims?

 

[MarkMclovin]

Any chance the gun control/religious/political side of this can go to another thread?

Trying to find updates is getting difficult.

 

[Supast4r]

Out of touch? With what? America is the only place in the world where shootings like this and gun violence general occur on this scale. Only America refuses to have any gun control implemented. Hmmm

I wonder how these two facts relate to the current climate of gun violence. I wish I could link it together. Maybe someone, a government agency maybe, should research it further?

. . . .Oh wait

I believe you mean first world countries... There are countries were car bomb happen on a daily basis.

 

[Future]

In this thread people are suggesting banning Muslims from carrying guns?

Wtf is going on

 

[2MF]

That poster asked "How many Muslims in the US take it seriously to the point of committing violence?", no where in that research did it discuss that.

There's a vast difference in advocating outright violence and thinking something should be discouraged.

There's no need to conflate the two expressions as if they're the same thing.

I didn't mean that. And I don't think there would be any polls with that kind of detail.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I didn't mean that. And I don't think there would be any polls with that kind of detail.

It's just more complicated. We would have to examine hate crimes against LGBT people and the demographics of the person who committed them.

 

[beast786]

I guess a question is, when an LGBT person is murdered, what kind of person is most likely to have murdered them in the US?

This is a serious question, not a gotcha (I don't actually know the answer).

There's homophobia in Christian and Judaic scripture as well

Depending what type of crime. People kill each other for various reasons, and actually know there victim. In this particular case it was a hate crime more than likely based on his belief.

Narated By Abdullah ibn Abbas : The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done.
Abu Dawud 38:4447


(We also sent) Lut (as a messenger): behold, He said to his people, "Do ye do what is shameful though ye see (its iniquity)? Would ye really approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, ye are a people (grossly) ignorant! But his people gave no other answer but this: they said, "Drive out the followers of Lut from your city: these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!" Then We saved him and his household save his wife; We destined her to be of those who stayed behind. And We rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): and evil was the shower on those who were admonished (but heeded not)!
Qur'an 27:54

If a person claim that Mohammad was a perfect example and Quran is direct , word to word , a God direct word . And this life is just a test for after life and what is good is only defined by God. Would you be shocked he would commit that act?

Sure, but I don't have the ability to influence Islamic scripture. Neither do my politicians.

You know what they do have the ability to do? Stop fuckers like this guy from buying a gun.

You know what they refuse to do? Stop fuckers like this guy from buying a gun.

But you can influence both. We should bring Islamic criticism up front. Not hide discussions under islamophobia. Unfortunately the bigot right has stolen the platform . In reality it should be our discussion.

By controlling gun you only fixed half the problem

 

[beast786]

Agreed wholeheartedly, as evidenced by my posts about that topic in past threads.

But surely even you'd agree that linking Islamic extremism to the entirety of the US's Muslim population (~3.5 million people), as that poster did, is ridiculous.

Not just ridiculous but bigoted.

Criticizing Islam =/= criticizing Muslim , we should all learn that by now . Can't take one broad brush to paint any group

Edit: on a side note. There is punishment of homosexuality in Quran ( regarding one of your link)

If two men among you are guilty of lewdness punish them both. If they repent and amend leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning Most Merciful. Quran 4:16

 

[Diffense]

In countries where it's very hard to obtain a gun legally, people who want them for nefarious reasons obtain them illegally on the black market. Sort of like drugs.

I'm no gundamentalist, but I'm not convinced that stricter gun laws will be a magic bullet (so to speak). This is a social issue having to do with the way people think. Indeed, the mass killings are often a reflection of America's social issues. In the Charleston church shooting it was racism, here homophobia.

 

[AnathemicOne]

In countries where it's very hard to obtain a gun legally, people who want them for nefarious reasons obtain them illegally on the black market. Sort of like drugs.

I'm no gundamentalist, but I'm not convinced that stricter gun laws will be a magic bullet (so to speak). This is a social issue having to do with the way people think. Indeed, the mass killings are often a reflection of America's social issues. In the Charleston church shooting it was racism, here homophobia.

And Sandy Hook it was obviously a hatred against children.

 

[Poltergust]

In countries where it's very hard to obtain a gun legally, people who want them for nefarious reasons obtain them illegally on the black market. Sort of like drugs.

I'm no gundamentalist, but I'm not convinced that stricter gun laws will be a magic bullet (so to speak). This is a social issue having to do with the way people think. Indeed, the mass killings are often a reflection of America's social issues. In the Charleston church shooting it was racism, here homophobia.

Mass shootings are not the only shootings in the US. In fact, they make up a small percentage of them.

You can prevent many, many other tragedies with stricter gun laws.

 

[Henkka]

I'm saying that we should be consistent. If we are to ban Muslims from gun ownership, we should do the same with men - and there's an even stronger argument for why we should, as it would do more to reduce gun crimes than just banning Muslims, if we were going down the ban route.

I don't think anyone has argued for banning guns specifically from Muslims? At least in this thread.

 

[Vicetrailia]

We do live in a society where anyone can just walk up and mob down 100 people with a gun that takes only a small effort to get, and is completely effortless to kill with.

 

[A Human Becoming]

I wish the OP updated because this thread is toxic. So much anger (and understandably so).

 

[A Link to the Past]

In countries where it's very hard to obtain a gun legally, people who want them for nefarious reasons obtain them illegally on the black market. Sort of like drugs.

I'm no gundamentalist, but I'm not convinced that stricter gun laws will be a magic bullet (so to speak). This is a social issue having to do with the way people think. Indeed, the mass killings are often a reflection of America's social issues. In the Charleston church shooting it was racism, here homophobia.

While a person who really, truly wants to obtain a gun will do so legally or illegally (the latter which is solved for the most part by fingerprint identification), there are people who would be detered by gun control laws.

I don't think anyone has argued for banning guns specifically from Muslims? At least in this thread.

devilhawk made some serious implications.

 

[pixelpatch]

Just watched the news of this, just a shame so many innocent lives were lost because of one persons terrible ideology.

 

[EdibleKnife]

In countries where it's very hard to obtain a gun legally, people who want them for nefarious reasons obtain them illegally on the black market. Sort of like drugs.

I'm no gundamentalist, but I'm not convinced that stricter gun laws will be a magic bullet (so to speak). This is a social issue having to do with the way people think. Indeed, the mass killings are often a reflection of America's social issues. In the Charleston church shooting it was racism, here homophobia.

I have to ask which do you actually think is easier to change: gun laws or warped ideals like homophobia, racism and extremism (which, keep in mind, have existed and perpetuated long before the creation of the US)?

 

[Spiral Insanity]

Just watched the news of this, just a shame so many innocent lives were lost because of one persons terrible ideology.

A shame? More like a tragedy.

 

[zoukka]

We do live in a society where anyone can just walk up and mob down 100 people with a gun that takes only a small effort to get, and is completely effortless to kill with.

In some backwards countries.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

Was out in the country side with no reception. Just heard this on the radio driving in to town.

Fucking awful, was this a group or was someone acting alone?

 

[Diffense]

I have to ask which do you actually think is easier to change: gun laws or warped ideals like homophobia, racism and extremism (which, keep in mind, have existed and perpetuated long before the creation of the US)?

So you just want to "do something" because it's "easy"?

 

[reckless]

Was out in the country side with no reception. Just heard this on the radio driving in to town.

Fucking awful, was this a group or was someone acting alone?

lone wolf

 

[Jedi2016]

We can't even enforce the gun laws we have now. Putting more laws on the books that won't be enforced doesn't seem like a solution to me.

 

[A Link to the Past]

So you just want to "do something" because it's "easy"?

Well that and because not doing anything hasn't saved any lives so far

The slightest effort on your part to understand what others are saying should tell you that people aren't suggesting this for shits and giggles.

 

[EdibleKnife]

So you just want to "do something" because it's "easy"?

If by do something, you mean regulate guns then yes. Since it is indeed the easier path and will in turn lead to less incidents like this, I would love to do it. Why wouldn't I?

 

[Mr. Giggles]

lone wolf

Damn.

I need to catch up on the news

 

[SquashMatch]

Strict gun control in Chicago is useless because you drive to the next state or country over and bring back as many guns as you like. That's why gun control on a city-by-city basis is not an effective approach.

That is fair, even if I disagree.

 

[Diffense]

I know some people think antireligion is bigoted but if these people (Christians, Muslims etc) have no problem passionately hating gays for something they CAN'T change I have no problem hating them for something they CAN change/leave: their crazy religions. They've certainly "made a choice".

 

[skullmuffins]

If gay people were allowed to donate, it would statistically save about a million lives per year.

And yes, discrimination is at the heart of the ban. It was made in the 80s during the AIDS scare. You simply cannot deny the connection there; gay people were almost universally despised during that time.

Can you share some references?. Is this saving a million lives per year of people that currently die because of blood shortage, or is it 'we'd have enough blood to use on a million more patients, an undetermined number who would have died without it', or is it something else? I'd like to learn, but whenever this topic comes up it's almost always people just complaining about how it's discriminating (but the explicit argument that it's wrong because it wouldn't stand if it was a ban on straight people is a new one to me). I'm interested in the science. Yes, even the new relaxed standards are probably overly conservative based on a fear of repeating tragedies of the 80s, but with any luck as they get more data and testing improves, they'll be able to further reduce or even eliminate the current deferral with minimal or no risk to the blood supply.

 

[devilhawk]

While a person who really, truly wants to obtain a gun will do so legally or illegally (the latter which is solved for the most part by fingerprint identification), there are people who would be detered by gun control laws.



devilhawk made some serious implications.

I never said the religion should be banned. I never said we should deport muslims. I never said only muslims should have banned guns. I simply stated that members of Islam, despite being a population that makes up only 1% of the US, have the distinction of the deadliest events in our history. Any implication people surmised from it was purely of their own doing and not mine.

 

[Kill Your Masters]

So you just want to "do something" because it's "easy"?

Something is still better than absolutely nothimg.

Easy is what you and a lot of pro gun people do by just saying "this wont solve anything" after every tragic event, then go back to the status quo and wait for the next massacre. Rinse and repeat.

But even if it would solve 1% of the problem, wouldn't it be worth it? (It would solve more than that most definitely though)

On the other side the lack of gun laws also shows that most US muslims are peaceful, otherwise there would be millions of armed muslims going around and mowing down non-believers.

 

[kirblar]

We can't even enforce the gun laws we have now. Putting more laws on the books that won't be enforced doesn't seem like a solution to me.

Because of the NRA.

This is the same "stop government from doing anything" "point to government not doing anything as evidence it doesn't work" that the HOP has been doing for decades.

 

[Rayis]

2 horrible tragedies back to back in Orlando, what an awful weekend this has been, homophobia kills, let's hope to end it this generation.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I never said the religion should be banned. I never said we should deport muslims. I never said only muslims should have banned guns. I simply stated that members of Islam, despite being a population that makes up only 1% of the US, have the distinction of the deadliest events in our history. Any implication people surmised from it was purely of their own doing and not mine.

Oh, so it was just random trivia with no meaning.

 

[antonz]

The NRA has become a bloated bag of shit but we really need to stop blaming them for everything.

They only have power because those in Government are giving it to them. We need to focus ire on the Politicians. Even when there are enough votes for legitimate issues the opportunities get squandered on feel good legislation like the Assault Weapons ban. If there was serious legislation regarding handguns and proper controls and restrictions. You could very well end up reducing gun violence by 80-90% in this country.