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Mass shooting at Orlando gay nightclub [50 dead, 53 injured]

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I mean, do you think those were good things now?

Or do you just want to violate the Constitution when it suits your political beliefs?

I think all of the above are total bullshit and I don't support any of them. And the 2nd is partly there to have some way to protect yourself from government overrreach like the programs you just listed.

If I was being quite candid I'm okay with certain aspects of the 'terrorism net' for lack of a better term. I have some bad news for you if you think the 2nd amendment is gonna protect you from a tyrannical government, this isn't the 1800's.

Are you American? If not let me explain from the beginning. The American Constitution has something called The Bill of Rights. These rights are considered universal and unable to be revoked for any reason without due process. One of these rights is the right to own a gun along with rights such as freedom of speech, religion, protection from unreasonable searches etc. If you treat one of these rights such as the right to own a gun as revocable without legislation then All Rights spelled out in the Bill of Rights could be revocable without legislation. It would be the single greatest devastating blow to civil liberties in the country's history. These rights can be changed or amended or removed through legislation. A two-thirds majority. The Bill of Rights is the only part of the Constitution that grants Americans civil liberties. It has never been changed. To change it would surely be a huge undertaking.

In theory. In practice your Bill of Rights has been eroded to the point that it is no longer recognizable.
 
Look at China which such a large population there is plenty of domestic violence and the manufacturing of firearms is done on a state and government level akin to printing money.

You don't even have to look very hard. The same day some equally unstable guy in Shanghai attempted to kill people and ended up stabbing himself in the throat and injuring three. That *same person* in USA could have killed 20 people. Because it doesn't require any mental stability, nor much money, nor any friends, nor criminal support network, to obtain a weapon.
 
There are numerous LGBT married Muslims in the US. There are a plurality of Imams who officiate such marriages. ISNA supports marriage rights for same sex couples.

The US isn't your community in Pakistan.

To add to that, Unity Mosque here in Toronto (among other LGBT-friendly outreach initiavites in Canada) is also dedicated to supporting LGBT Muslims and non-Muslims alike.
 
Yet, we passed the PATRIOT act, waterboarded people, indefinite detention, wiretapping, etc. etc.

Accept it we can and will take away peoples rights so long as it isn't their 2nd amendment, some reason that one has to be secured.

And I similarly fight against people losing those rights. Two wrongs don't make a right.
 
At least inspired by ISIS, who have taken credit.

those fuckers will take credit for anything that is harmful. but that doesn't mean they are responsible for it. I wish I know what was the reason for this.

I am sorry for everyone who got affected. this goes to all people around the whole world who get killed like that in a terrorist attacks. wherever they are in Asia, Middle East, Europe or NA.

fucking gross and i hope they go to hell. killing innocent people is not a heroic act . not in any fucking religion.
 
If people on no-fly lists dont have the right have to fly , why in hell are they able to buy a gun? How is the right to a fucking gun something explicitly fabricated with the intent of killing, something no civilian person has a reason to have, a bigger, more defended right than the right to use a mode of transportation.

2nd Amendment. 14th Amendment.

Also, nobody has an inherent right to fly on an airplane. Just like you don't have an inherent right to drive a car anywhere you want.
 
At least inspired by ISIS, who have taken credit.

There are numerous LGBT married Muslims in the US. There are a plurality of Imams who officiate such marriages. ISNA supports marriage rights for same sex couples.

The US isn't your community in Pakistan.

Yup, this is possibly a lone wolf attack where they heeded ISIS's call for attacks during Ramadan.

In that case, minimal activity would happen to cause alarm of an impending attack due to the nature of this kind of terrorist act. This is the scariest and the most terrifying of the escalation of terrorism because it could happen anytime, anywhere with little to no signals to get the police prepared and ready :(
 
those fuckers will take credit for anything that is harmful. but that doesn't mean they are responsible for it. I wish I know what was the reason for this.

I am sorry for everyone who got affected. this goes to all people around the whole world who get killed like that in a terrorist attacks. whatever they are in Asia, Middle East, Europe or NA.

fucking gross and i hope they go to hell. killing innocent people is not a heroic act . not in any fucking religion.

They usually only take credit for things they are actually involved in, the shooter also told the police he was pledged to ISIS.
 
arguments like

"It's in the constitution"

are non-arguments to me. They have as much weight as someone saying the Bible is true because it's the Bible.
Well, no. It being in the Constitution makes it the Law of the Land (tm). And while numerous people here on GAF and elsewhere will rant about the Constitution being some age old document and why do we care?

Well, we care because the Constitution also tells us how to change the Constitution. The methods to eliminate literally any amendment to the Constitution are ready and available to citizens of the United States.

So it's worth a little more than a comparison to the bible, because the writers of the Constitution were forward thinking enough to recognize that things could and almost certainly WOULD change. In recognizing, they laid the groundwork for HOW to bring that change about.
 
fucking hell.

How easy do people get brain washed. Its insane :(
Ex wife said he used to beat her and seemed unstable .but wasn't particularly religious when they were married briefly (2009) her parents came and took her off to save her .guy just seems to have many many issues
 
Terrible news. All those lives now extinguished far too early. I feel for the victims and their families, I could not imagine how they are feeling. I hope they get the support needed and debates on whatever topics this tragedy brings about are actually towards a resolution for the problem plaguing America.
 
Well, no. It being in the Constitution makes it the Law of the Land (tm). And while numerous people here on GAF and elsewhere will rant about the Constitution being some age old document and why do we care?

Well, we care because the Constitution also tells us how to change the Constitution. The methods to eliminate literally any amendment to the Constitution are ready and available to citizens of the United States.

So it's worth a little more than a comparison to the bible, because the writers of the Constitution were forward thinking enough to recognize that things could and almost certainly WOULD change. In recognizing, they laid the groundwork for HOW to bring that change about.

You know its funny you mention that, from Jefferson.

Every constitution, then, and every law, naturally expires at the end of nineteen years. If it be enforced longer, it is an act of force, and not of right. It may be said, that the succeeding generation exercising, in fact, the power of repeal, this leaves them as free as if the constitution or law had been expressly limited to nineteen years only. In the first place, this objection admits the right, in proposing an equivalent. But the power of repeal is not an equivalent. It might be, indeed, if every form of government were so perfectly contrived, that the will of the majority could always be obtained, fairly and without impediment. But this is true of no form. The people cannot assemble themselves; their representation is unequal and vicious. Various checks are opposed to every legislative proposition. Factions get possession of the public councils, bribery corrupts them, personal interests lead them astray from the general interests of their constituents; and other impediments arise, so as to prove to every practical man, that a law of limited duration is much more manageable than one which needs a repeal.
 
Many of the people blaming Islam are just the usual gun nuts looking for scapegoats, looking to divert attention as usual, so they can keep their precious guns. Something tells me they're not so crazy about the lgbt community either if you ask them. Hateful hypocrites
 
They usually only take credit for things they are actually involved in, the shooter also told the police he was pledged to ISIS.

ok

The people blaming Islam are just the usual gun nuts looking for scape goats so they can keep their precious guns. Something tells me they're not so crazy about the lgbt community either if you ask them.


Agreed. in every religion there are good and bad people. Religion has nothing to do with this. i read my fair share of religion books and NONE of them say its ok to kill innocent people, unarmed or kids.

this is just a terrorist attack regardless of his religion.
 
You fight against it, how exactly?

Sorry, I accept that the constitution is a living document, I don't hold it to the reverence that some people do.

Its living in that you can change it through Law. Not in that you can ignore it when it's not convenient for you. And I would say that about any right that is given to the people.

It's very sad that you do not respect the document that gives you the freedoms and liberties that the country was founded on and are essential for every human to live happy and free life. By not giving importance to the document that gives so much to the people you are being hostile to our Liberty.
 
And despite it being a yoke of slavery, it's still often cited by anti-gay evangelicals as scripture-ordered justification for homophobia. There are a few other scriptures even in the New Testament that speak to a condemnation of homosexual acts sans death (1 Corinth 6:9-10) and others that are used to speak to the fact that heterosexuality is the one true way humans can/should act (Matthew 19:3-6)
Technically 1 corinth 6:9-10 says they wont inherit gods kingdom as in they wont go to heaven or if you believe in paradise on earth, they wont be resurrected on earth. It doesnt condemn them to death for their actions by man. Its seen as a sin as much as getting drunk often.

Dont get me wrong, I'm not Christian and I know dipshits use the old testament shit like Leviticus to back up their twisted beliefs. I just feel the need to correct someone when they say the bible teaches gay people should be put to death for being gay because it doesnt.
 
People telling people and especially muslims how intolerant (their) Islam is and basically telling if they are tolerant they are not true muslims. Basically what Isis is doing.

Terrorists could not ask for better support.
 
They usually only take credit for things they are actually involved in, the shooter also told the police he was pledged to ISIS.
I wouldn't be surprised if the only link to ISIS was their encouragement for people to perform lone-wolf attacks. So one person pledges to them, does some horrible shit, and they get to claim responsibility without actually having to do anything themselves. That sounds awfully American of them, now that I think about it.
 
Well, no. It being in the Constitution makes it the Law of the Land (tm). And while numerous people here on GAF and elsewhere will rant about the Constitution being some age old document and why do we care?

Well, we care because the Constitution also tells us how to change the Constitution. The methods to eliminate literally any amendment to the Constitution are ready and available to citizens of the United States.

So it's worth a little more than a comparison to the bible, because the writers of the Constitution were forward thinking enough to recognize that things could and almost certainly WOULD change. In recognizing, they laid the groundwork for HOW to bring that change about.

Yup, the beauty of the constitution is that it is malleable and changeable to fit society.

How about that amendment on banning alcohol? If society wills it, they could change the other amendments.
 
To add to that, Unity Mosque here in Toronto (among other LGBT-friendly outreach initiavites in Canada) is also dedicated to supporting LGBT Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

That's great except


Canada

"And while a 2013 Pew Research poll found that 80 per cent of Canadians agreed that homosexuality should be accepted by society, only 36 per cent of Muslims agreed with that statement."
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/politics/grenier-muslim-canadians-environics-1.3551591

England

Forget the rights. They want it illegal

"52% of British Muslims in poll think homosexuality should be illegal"

http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/11/europe/britain-muslims-survey/
 
Its living in that you can change it through Law. Not in that you can ignore it when it's not convenient for you. And I would say that about any right that is given to the people.

We have been ignoring it throughout our entire history and changing the 'interpretation' based on current social norms, hence it being a living document.

How about that amendment on banning alcohol? If society wills it, they could change the other amendments.

We cannot pass a budget these days, you think you are getting 2/3 to agree on something?
 
Those phone transcripts are heartbreaking...



Was just going to say, I was hoping this tragedy would at least awaken some compassion in people who previously were not supportive of LGBT.

But I've realized some people... are sadly never going to change :\

I've been thinking more and more of going to the Caribbean (where my I was born, I guess) and becoming more socially and politically active there for LGBT rights. I don't want to fucking get chopped up or shot and I feel that would be a strong possibility.
 
Many of the people blaming Islam are just the usual gun nuts looking for scapegoats, looking to divert attention as usual, so they can keep their precious guns. Something tells me they're not so crazy about the lgbt community either if you ask them. Hateful hypocrites

And may of the people blaming guns and downplaying Islam would impress an ostrich with how far down they can bury their head in the sand.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if the only link to ISIS was their encouragement for people to perform lone-wolf attacks. So one person pledges to them, does some horrible shit, and they get to claim responsibility without actually having to do anything themselves. That sounds awfully American of them, now that I think about it.

Seems like it so far, they just want to get their "brand" out there while they can, especially since they are busy losing in Iraq and Syria.
 
Many of the people blaming Islam are just the usual gun nuts looking for scapegoats, looking to divert attention as usual, so they can keep their precious guns. Something tells me they're not so crazy about the lgbt community either if you ask them. Hateful hypocrites

A lot of politicians are tip toeing around the fact that this happened at a gay nightclub. They'll get their thoughts and prayers tweets out today, and then spew their homophobia tomorrow. Just watch.
 
2nd Amendment. 14th Amendment.

Also, nobody has an inherent right to fly on an airplane. Just like you don't have an inherent right to drive a car anywhere you want.
But apparently we as Americans do have the inherent right to have many guns.

And that's stupid, I hate people that cling to the 2nd amendment as if the people that wrote it were all knowing gods that we must follow forever. They couldn't have predicted the issues we face today so we should be able to adjust things to make us safer in today's world, but nope we must follow those words verbatim or else America is over!
 
People telling people and especially muslims how intolerant (their) Islam is and basically telling if they are tolerant they are not true muslims. Basically what Isis is doing.

Terrorists could not ask for better support.

Yea, stopping conversation about ideological causes sounds like great solution.
 
You know its funny you mention that, from Jefferson.

What's REALLY funny is that he also said:

god forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. the people cannot be all, & always, well informed. the past which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive; if they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. we have had 13. states independant 11. years. there has been one rebellion. that comes to one rebellion in a century & a half for each state. what country before ever existed a century & half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms. the remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them. what signify a few lives lost in a century or two? the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. it is it's natural manure.

So while he was in favor of changing things up, he also recognized that the people needed an effective way to rebel, thus the necessity to allow its citizens to be armed.
 
So while he was in favor of changing things up, he also recognized that the people needed an effective way to rebel, thus the necessity to allow its citizens to be armed.

Just not sure if you are serious, so I'm going to ask. You think your AR-15 would allow you to rebel against the US?

Jefferson was talking about equal arms when it was musket v. musket. I don't see people asking for the same arms that would be needed to stop a tyrannical government, odd no?
 
Many of the people blaming Islam are just the usual gun nuts looking for scapegoats, looking to divert attention as usual, so they can keep their precious guns. Something tells me they're not so crazy about the lgbt community either if you ask them. Hateful hypocrites

The problem is both. Religion gives people an excuse commit horrible acts. It's not needed for life. Atheist aren't doing this bullshit.
 
Just not sure if you are serious, so I'm going to ask. You think your AR-15 would allow you to rebel against the US?

I don't personally own a gun, but I don't think anybody is assuming one guy can rebel against a nation. Why ask such an absurd question? Keep your gotchas in your pocket.

If the majority of the citizenry wanted to overthrow the government they certainly could, and that's the important thing.
 
We have been ignoring it throughout our entire history and changing the 'interpretation' based on current social norms, hence it being a living document.



We cannot pass a budget these days, you think you are getting 2/3 to agree on something?

Glad to see you admit that you are for an authoritarian society. At least it's in the open.
 
My thoughts are with everyone. What a horrible thing.
This has to stop. It's horrendous.
 
Any details come out yet about the identity of the guy from Indiana who was headed to the LA gay pride parade with guns and explosives?
 
I don't personally own a gun, but I don't think anybody is assuming one guy can rebel against a nation. Why ask such an absurd question? Keep your gotchas in your pocket.

If the majority of the citizenry wanted to overthrow the government they certainly could, and that's the important thing.

If the majority of the citizenrey wanted to overthrow the government, they'd just vote them out, being the majority...
 
What's REALLY funny is that he also said:



So while he was in favor of changing things up, he also recognized that the people needed an effective way to rebel, thus the necessity to allow its citizens to be armed.
No fucker or group of fuckers could take on the government with their Ar 15s, so that statement is extremely outdated.
 
You haven't seen it in your lifetime in your region. People all over the world throughout time have seen it happen over and over. It's how America is even where it is now.

You can turn on the news any day now and still see them talking about groups occupying or taking nations.

I think there is a vast difference between taking over this nation or that nation and taking over a nation that has the military, nukes, drones, tanks, etc. that ours has.

Honestly though, I shouldn't have contributed to the derail of this thread so this is a conversation that would be better held in different thread.

At one of the big shopping centers here in Orlando, Old Navy, CVS and Wendy's are handing out hats, umbrellas, bottled water and food to the people waiting in line to give blood.

https://www.facebook.com/One92media/videos/640157809467113/

People can be fucking horrible, but people can also be fucking awesome.

Nod, tragedy like this does bring out the community that is America.
 
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