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[timetokill]

It's people reacting to one of the greatest losses of life in American history, sorry that the response to people handwaving the gun control debate in this topic away isn't 100% reasonable and logical.

It's a frequent strawman that is brought up outside of emotional situations like this. It's tired and played out.

All I'm seeing is that you're perfectly okay with innocent people dying so that guns can be kept by idiots.

Basically every liberty is like this. I'm in favor of due process even if it means some of the guilty go free and commit more crimes. I'm not "okay" with innocent people dying. But I'm even less okay with fundamental rights being thrown out on a whim due to an emotional reaction. Society and civilization is about tradeoffs. My line is just closer to the liberty side than yours is. And that's okay, we all disagree about things. That's what a democratic republic is all about.

Christina Grimmie died in Orlando, Florida just two days ago in a premediated single-target shooting. THE SAME FUCKING CITY.

There is a gun-issue in this country and mass shootings are a part of that.

And as I said before, that's a much more compelling argument for gun control than the terrorism of a guy radicalized by ISIL.
There are shootings every day in our major cities. That bothers me significantly more than this does from a gun control standpoint. This is a serious failure of intelligence.

 

[Sianos]

It must be weird being a Gay Roman Catholic Trump supporter. Can this dude even vote?

I guess Milo is "one of the good ones" to the alt-right, eh?

Pretty ironic of his complaint that "the media" isn't protecting gay people - it's pretty damn obvious which side of the aisle fits that bill. Hint for Milo: it's the one you support.

 

[A Link to the Past]

You're wrong - you're trying to use this tragedy to push a gun control agenda. this was motivated by religion and terrorism and hatred by a hateful religious homophobe.

The FBI/CIA/US Gov't fucked up by not getting this asshole sooner.

And you're trying to silence any discussion about gun control because it is not in your best interests for it to be discussed. It doesn't matter to you to learn the truth, you would sooner just be ignorant of what the truth is, because if this killing wasn't caused by lax gun control, then it's the status quo. If it was, it means that things need to change.

 

[Sephzilla]

You're wrong - you're trying to use this tragedy to push a gun control agenda. this was motivated by religion and terrorism and hatred by a hateful religious homophobe.

The FBI/CIA/US Gov't fucked up by not getting this asshole sooner.

In my humble opinion this is more a gun control problem than a religious hate crime. From everything I've seen and heard about this guy, there were pretty clear warning signs in place that this guy shouldn't have been allowed to own a firearm yet he was able to acquire firearms, and legally.

That, to me, speaks as a clear sign that there are problems with our gun control system in America. This tragedy could have been avoided with some more strict policies that likely wouldn't even affect most Americans who are interested in guns.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

You're wrong - you're trying to use this tragedy to push a gun control agenda. this was motivated by religion and terrorism and hatred by a hateful religious homophobe.

The FBI/CIA/US Gov't fucked up by not getting this asshole sooner.

But, apparently, he wasn't technically breaking any laws. So wouldn't this be trampling on his constitutional rights? Hence the problem with this entire discussion. We need to do something about this stuff, cause we are losing because people are using our own laws against us. He purchased the gun legally, he was perverted by a radical agenda, and now hundreds of human lives have been forever shattered and destroyed.

 

[SmokeMaxX]

3 out of 8 is definitely statistically significant, when we're talking about a 1 out of 100 ratio in the population. You would expect 3 out of 300, so there's a 37 to 1 discrepancy in deadly attack frequency.

Is flipping a coin and getting heads 4 times in a row statistically significant? There's a lot of variance in small numbers.

 

[reckless]

There are a lot of ways to do it.

1. Fingerprint identification

2. Longer wait times to get a firearm (with more stringent background checks, proof of your psychological fitness, proof of your ability to handle a firearm safely and responsibly)

Would this have stopped him? Given that he slipped through the cracks and that he was clearly devout, possibly not. There are however plenty of people who would have been stopped.

That's fair, saying

The people who consider (before and after) gun control laws to be an infringement on their rights and who pushed to prevent responsible gun laws, like improving background checks and implementing guns with fingerprint identification, are all complicit in these 50 deaths.

isn't considering what we know about the shooter.

 

[Steeped in a Sea of Games]

At risk of being banned:

Fuck guns and fuck religion.

I'm sick of people worshiping false idols. I'm furious right now. My supervisor who happens to be gay was in tears over this last night, one of the nicest guys I've ever known. All of my best friends are gay. All I can feel is rage.

 

[Mahonay]

The EA conference was a small reprieve, and now I feel absolutely terrible again. I need to stop reading reports on this for now. Having gay family members and friends makes it even harder to think about.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

All I'm seeing is that you're perfectly okay with innocent people dying so that guns can be kept by idiots.

So you somehow know that every gun owner is an idiot or is OK with innocent people dying? You're angry, I get that, and I am too. But laws especially those affecting millions shouldn't be made purely on the basis of emotion. All gun owners are all mad people and psychopaths though because they're interested in something that you aren't /s

Sorry, I know a few people who own guns and they are the nicest possible people that you can meet. I can't tar them all with the same brush.

 

[2MF]

Is flipping a coin and getting heads 4 times in a row statistically significant? There's a lot of variance in small numbers.

Hint: heads are 50% of a coin's possible outcomes, not 1%.

 

[GaimeGuy]

That's great except


Canada

"And while a 2013 Pew Research poll found that 80 per cent of Canadians agreed that homosexuality should be accepted by society, only 36 per cent of Muslims agreed with that statement."
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/politics/grenier-muslim-canadians-environics-1.3551591

England

Forget the rights. They want it illegal

"52% of British Muslims in poll think homosexuality should be illegal"

http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/11/europe/britain-muslims-survey/

You know, prior to Lawrence v Texas (2003), Sodomy was illegal in 14 states

 

[ugaboga232]

Yeah because I have nothing else to do except to provide you with an in-depth study of the reasons behind that striking statistic.



3 out of 8 is definitely statistically significant, when we're talking about a 1 out of 100 ratio in the population. You would expect 3 out of 300, so there's a 37 to 1 discrepancy in deadly attack frequency.

That is not what statistically significant means.

 

[Volimar]

The mobile ads, man. I got Rob Portman protecting our rights to small arms. Bad timing adsense, bad timing.

 

[mackattk]

Trump almost sounds happy.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/742034549232766976?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

This guy can't become president.

 

[A Link to the Past]

So you somehow know that every gun owner is an idiot or is OK with innocent people dying? You're angry, I get that, and I am too. But laws especially those affecting millions shouldn't be made purely on the basis of emotion. Gun owners are all mad people and psychopaths though because they're interested in something that you aren't /s

It does not need to be all gun owners. The issue is that there are a number of people who are irresponsible gun owners, and just as many other people who are responsible, but do not concern themselves with making sure irresponsible people don't get guns.

We need reform, and a lot of it. We need to make guns safer, and yet guns are only getting more dangerous.

 

[sunshine and gasoline]

You're wrong - you're trying to use this tragedy to push a gun control agenda. this was motivated by religion and terrorism and hatred by a hateful religious homophobe.

The FBI/CIA/US Gov't fucked up by not getting this asshole sooner.

I've been at work for a while and haven't been able to read up on this in a while but how did the US Gov/CIA/FBI fuck up? Last I heard, he was on a watch list. I would imagine that there were concerned by him but presumably he didn't give them a legit reason to bring him in. Were there any clear indications that he was going to go on a killing spree that the FBI/CIA missed or ignored? If that isn't the case, then how did the CIA/FBI fuck up?

 

[Renekton]

That is not what statistically significant means.

Explain :S

 

[AnathemicOne]

So you somehow know that every gun owner is an idiot or is OK with innocent people dying? You're angry, I get that, and I am too. But laws especially those affecting millions shouldn't be made purely on the basis of emotion. All gun owners are all mad people and psychopaths though because they're interested in something that you aren't /s

If you're not for a ban of said worthless hobby then concede to add some regulations atleast. America is fucked because gun regulations are nonexistant; being able to drive a car is more difficult than getting a gun.

 

[cr0w]

No. It's the truth.

So let's take my family, for example. I don't own a gun, nor will I ever. I don't like them.

My dad lives in Colorado, 10,000 feet up a mountain north of Golden. He regularly goes hiking and camping, and carries a rifle with him because of past encounters with moose, bears and mountain lions, among other things. Are you saying that my dad, who never uses his guns for any other purpose outside of that specific scenario I just presented to you, owns a gun simply because he wants to live out an action hero fantasy or compensate for a small cock? Is that what you're saying?

There's a problem with guns in this country. Handguns and assault rifles especially. Sweeping changes need to be implemented to ensure these things stop happening, or at least it needs to be made harder for them to happen. But if you're responding to a terrorist hate crime with hate for people that you assume are all scum because they own guns, how are you better than the guy who just killed 50 people because they were at a gay club?

 

[Nekofrog]

So you somehow know that every gun owner is an idiot or is OK with innocent people dying? You're angry, I get that, and I am too. But laws especially those affecting millions shouldn't be made purely on the basis of emotion. All gun owners are all mad people and psychopaths though because they're interested in something that you aren't /s

Sorry, I know a few people who own guns and they are the nicest possible people that you can meet. I can't tar them all with the same brush.

Your justifications for murder are disgusting.

So let's take my family, for example. I don't own a gun, nor will I ever. I don't like them.

My dad lives in Colorado, 10,000 feet up a mountain north of Golden. He regularly goes hiking and camping, and carries a rifle with him because of past encounters with moose, bears and mountain lions, among other things. Are you saying that my dad, who never uses his guns for any other purpose outside of that specific scenario I just presented to you, owns a gun simply because he wants to live out an action hero fantasy or compensate for a small cock? Is that what you're saying?

There's a problem with guns in this country. Handguns and assault rifles especially. Sweeping changes need to be implemented to ensure these things stop happening, or at least it needs to be made harder for them to happen. But if you're responding to a terrorist hate crime with hate for people that you assume are all scum because they own guns, how are you better than the guy who just killed 50 people because they were at a gay club?

Your father chooses to do what he does, he doesn't need a gun to do it if he understands the risk.

Your justifications for murder are disgusting as well.

 

[TheStruggler]

Trump almost sounds happy.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/742034549232766976?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

so what about the past mass shootings in the US that have been done by white people.....rolls eyes

 

[HK-47]

You're wrong - you're trying to use this tragedy to push a gun control agenda. this was motivated by religion and terrorism and hatred by a hateful religious homophobe.

The FBI/CIA/US Gov't fucked up by not getting this asshole sooner.

And the American people and Congress fucked up by not enacting structer gun control. Looks like there is blame to go around.

 

[LizardKing]

It's really sad that many of both liberals and conservatives alike cling to an authoritarian type of government ideal when they feel threatened. And in this situation the word liberal loses all meaning.

It's also the greatest Victory you can give terrorists and people who want to take your rights away.

 

[hamauzu kaito]

The same thing is happening domestically so I wouldn't be shocked if it is happening internationally. So many playing into it being a terrorist act but shying away or refusing to acknowledge that it is foremost a hate attack against LGBT people.

WOW! You are right! Lots of domestic media is playing this angle as well. Searching many news sites has the terrorism aspect highlighted and the LGBT aspect buried down in the article. One interesting thing I don't know if it has been brought up is this:

from CNN: Orlando shooting: 50 killed, shooter pledged ISIS allegiance

A message posted in Arabic on a dark web site associated with the ISIS news agency Amaq said "the armed attack that targeted a gay night club in the city of Orlando in the American state of Florida and that bore more than a 100 killed and wounded was carried out by an Islamic state fighter."

But CNN's Salma Abdulaziz, who translated the message and closely monitors ISIS messaging, cautioned about taking the message at face value.

She said the language is inconsistent with previous ISIS announcements and that the Arabic word for gay was used rather than an epithet normally used by ISIS. Also, there was no claim that the attack was directed, just an after-the-fact claim the gunman was an ISIS fighter, she said.

And not only that but the FBI interviews turned up nothing? So....?

 

[A Link to the Past]

Also, I am really sick and tired of people claiming that gun control laws are being made as an emotional reaction. They are being made as a logical one - it just so happens that there is an emotional component to the logic. For instance, why do we need fingerprint identification? Because a lot of kids kill themselves or their friends because of irresponsible gun owners leaving their guns where kids can find them. It also prevents illegal use of guns (without circumvention) and makes it more difficult to commit a crime with that gun. Yes, these are reasons that are tied to emotion, but are they -not- based in logic too?

 

[2MF]

That is not what statistically significant means.

OK, let's pull out the calculator then:

http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial.aspx

Let's say we're sampling 8 of the deadliest attacks. If attacks were evently distributed, 1% would be commited by muslims.

Probability of success on a single trial: 0.01 (1%)
Number of trials: 8
Number of successes: 3

Result:

Probability of X < 3= 99.9946%

This means there's almost a 100% chance of getting less than 3 of the 8 attacks commited by muslims. Yet the actual, real number was >= 3 (namely, exactly 3).

This is way above the statistical significance of most scientific studies and polls.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

If you're not for a ban of said worthless hobby then concede to add some regulations atleast. America is fucked because gun regulations are nonexistant; being able to drive a car is more difficult than getting a gun.

Yes, I fully support European style firearm regulations. How many 'worthwhile' hobbies are there? I could say a lot of things like gaming are worthless hobbies.

 

[Volimar]

The line in Orlando to donate blood.

 

[ugaboga232]

Explain :S

Statistically significant means something very specific. It is generally used in research/data gathering to mean that the averages (means) of two values are actually different. The way you do this requires some algebra and stuff but statistically significant differences can be practically meaningless and vice versa. 3/8 mass shootings being muslim is higher than expected but is not statistically significant for the whole population of the united states (hence why polls of ~1000 are usually pretty accurate but a poll of 10 would not be).

 

[Piggus]

No. It's the truth.

Well congrats on keeping the conversation divisive then. Truth or not, it's people like you who ensure that nothing changes and that the much-needed conversation the country needs to have remains a shitshow. Instead of berating people who have done nothing wrong, you may want to instead consider solutions that don't automatically push people away. You can insult and complain about gun owners all you want. But don't expect anything good to come of it until both sides engage in a way that's respectful. I'm a gun owner. I'm fucking appalled by what happened. I'm fucking appalled by other gun owners who refuse to support intelligent gun control reforms, and I'm appalled by people like you result to petty insults and generilaztions as a way of making yourself feel morally superior. Congrats, you've achieved nothing.

 

[cr0w]

Your justifications for murder are disgusting.



Your father chooses to do what he does, he doesn't need a gun to do it if he understands the risk.

Your justifications for murder are disgusting as well.

How in the blue fuck am I justifying murder?

 

[Platy]

It is pretty interesting how ISIS is becoming a crowdsourcing version of terrorism. It just needs a dude that slightly looks like something they do and they go and say it was them.

 

[GeorgioCostanzaX]

This guy can't become president.

"

Yup

"What has happened in Orlando is just the beginning. Our leadership is weak and ineffective. I called it and asked for the ban. Must be tough"

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/742096033207844864

Doubling down on the Muslim travel ban when this dude was a U.S citizen seems like a perfect logical leap. As if that would have stopped anything. Hold your nose and vote Hillary this guy is a dangerous joke.

 

[Nekofrog]

How in the blue fuck am I justifying murder?

Any argument not in favor of an outright ban is a justification of murder.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Yes, I fully support European style firearm regulations. How many 'worthwhile' hobbies are there? I could say a lot of things like gaming are worthless hobbies.

I think it's important to note that it's not a matter of worthwhile vs. worthless - it's a matter of one hobby being dangerous and contributing to an unsavory element in our society. Moms hate Dead Space 2.

 

[AnathemicOne]

Yes, I fully support European style firearm regulations. How many 'worthwhile' hobbies are there? I could say a lot of things like gaming are worthless hobbies.

True, but video games are not made for the purpose of ending life. 'Lest you want to kill someone by smashing a video game case in their face repeatedly.

 

[Keri]

That, to me, speaks as a clear sign that there are problems with our gun control system in America. This tragedy could have been avoided with some more strict policies that likely wouldn't even affect most Americans who are interested in guns.

I'm personally in favor of gun control, as well, but if this attack was motivated by ISIS, realistically, more gun control wouldn't have prevented it. Either he would have resorted to homemade bombs or, if he had a legitimate connection to ISIS, he may have been provided weapons illegally. Although, I suppose it may have reduced the scope of the attack.

 

[Mahonay]

Trump almost sounds happy.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/742034549232766976?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

Disgusting.

 

[cr0w]

Any argument not in favor of an outright ban is a justification of murder.

...there's no point in continuing this discussion, or any discussion, with you.

 

[ugaboga232]

OK, let's pull out the calculator then:

http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial.aspx

Let's say we're sampling 8 of the deadliest attacks. If attacks were evently distributed, 1% would be commited by muslims.

Probability of success on a single trial: 0.01 (1%)
Number of trials: 8
Number of successes: 3

Result:

Probability of X < 3= 99.9946%

This means there's almost a 100% chance of getting less than 3 of the 8 attacks commited by muslims. Yet the actual, real number was >= 3 (namely, exactly 3).

This is way above the statistical significance of most scientific studies and polls.

As a published researcher I thank you for your description but no this is not how statistical significance is calculated.

 

[devilhawk]

In my humble opinion this is more a gun control problem than a religious hate crime. From everything I've seen and heard about this guy, there were pretty clear warning signs in place that this guy shouldn't have been allowed to own a firearm yet he was able to acquire firearms, and legally.

That, to me, speaks as a clear sign that there are problems with our gun control system in America. This tragedy could have been avoided with some more strict policies that likely wouldn't even affect most Americans who are interested in guns.

If he was an atheist, this doesn't happen. Period. If we had better gun control, the bomb he instead puts around his chest goes off.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Any argument not in favor of an outright ban is a justification of murder.

Y'know, I'm defending your right to be upset and lash out to some extent (I mean this is an extremely emotional situation), but you're getting a little too personal; it's gonna get you banned.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

Your justifications for murder are disgusting.



Your father chooses to do what he does, he doesn't need a gun to do it if he understands the risk.

Your justifications for murder are disgusting as well.

This is a textbook example of why a rational debate on firearms cannot happen in America. Good luck getting gun owners to support more regulation when all you want is to destroy their hobby, and you shit on them all the fucking time.

 

[GregLombardi]

I will be so happy when Donald Trump has a bunch of cameras pointed at him asking him how it feels to lose. I am containing my anger at those tweets, but this tragedy is almost too much for me at this moment. I feel like I should go for a run or something.

Trump needs to shut up.

 

[Nekofrog]

...there's no point in continuing this discussion, or any discussion, with you.

I'm so happy for you that you're perfectly okay with having the blood of thousands on your hands so that people can keep their killtoys.

This is a textbook example of why a rational debate on firearms cannot happen in America. Good luck getting gun owners to support more regulation when all you want is to destroy their hobby, and you shit on them all the fucking time.

I'm sorry, it's 20fucking16, there's no longer any reason to keep up any pretense of "debate" when there is no reason to even have guns anymore.

 

[timetokill]

I'm so happy for you that you're perfectly okay with having the blood of thousands on your hands so that people can keep their killtoys.

Dude I think you need to cool off for a bit

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

It's really sad that many of both liberals and conservatives alike cling to an authoritarian type of government ideal when they feel threatened. And in this situation the word liberal loses all meaning.

It's also the greatest Victory you can give terrorists and people who want to take your rights away.

Stop, okay, please. It isn't authoritarian to understand that 'rights' have limitations and restrictions.

What you are saying is rather offensive, especially at this time. You are basically saying we are the cause of this, no?

Any argument not in favor of an outright ban is a justification of murder.

Or maybe we should just ignore both extremes.

 

[Piggus]

I'm so happy for you that you're perfectly okay with having the blood of thousands on your hands so that people can keep their killtoys.

And yet you think an outright ban wouldn't result in the deaths of thousands. How cute.

 

[Diffense]

I'm gay and live in Orlando. Every single person I know who lives in the city I've tried to account for. Every gay person I've seen today I've burst into tears of joy at how happy I am they were still alive. That, I believe, is the point of terrorism.

We were told after the last mass shooting that Islam is a religion of peace.. and the one before that.. and the one before that. Its starting to ring really hollow

I ask for people to look at the countries where Islam has what it wants: political control with no outside pressure from a pluralistic society. What are the rights of gays and women there? What is it like in Iran or Saudi Arabia? I really have to wonder what people are smoking when they try to handwave the influence of this religious ideology away.

Religion of Peace? Religion of being cut into pieces.