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[Liberty4all]

I find it interesting the discussion here is going towards gun control. The discussion in my friend group is it being a hate crime.

It feels that there are two narratives happening in the media one making it a gun issue the other a fundamentalist Islam one.

 

[PhantomZone]

I feel Australian weapons law is overly restrictive, I mean, things like airsoft, paintball guns and pellet guns are banned there, wtf. Goes beyond saving lives to being an authoritarian nanny state. Are many people getting killed by those items being legal? You're even more restrictive than the UK, lol. I can still buy this stuff in the UK without a license if under a certain joule limit or something.

It's worth it though, we're not making world wide headlines for gun shooting after gun shooting.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

I think we should ban the public from buying AR's. They aren't used for hunting, and they are overkill for self defense. They serve no purpose other than causing mass human casualties from my prespective

I mean, fair enough. Like I said previously, tons of damage can be done with a wide variety of firearms.

And I'm being specific to the incident that this thread is about: There needs to be a way to add due-process when someone is on a terror watch list and there needs to be more in-depth analysis of someone once they're on it. It's sad that this guy apparently had contact with a dude that ended up suicide bombing in Syria and his own co-workers contacted authorities cause he was saying that terrorist shit. How many more red flags are required?

 

[MadJackChurchill]

Has the MO of a homegrown nutter. Islamists don't have a great interest in targeting gay nightclubs ;
- their primary motivation would be to claim it's warning for attacking ISIS in Syria - so would chose a general target
- and if they were upset at gay people they still hold all American society to blame

So sounds domestic.

Very domestic. Although, of course that's not what the media holds on to. They refer to him as an American* which is pretty finger-pointy in my books.

*With Afghan heritage

Of course Daesh would claim responsibility too, they have a keen interest in appearing all-reaching and all-powerful. They want people to fear.

 

[LeonSPBR]

Jesus just saw this news... and now I saw newsof a guy with explosives and guns going to a gay movement... WTF is going on??

 

[Deleted member 1159]

Holy fuck, I woke up and went on a day-long drive/hike/drive and just saw this. I'm dumbstruck.

 

[Jonm1010]

I agree this is a problem. No question.



I've addressed this. Look around the world. Uprisings are happening all over the place against theoretically superior armies.

The US government cannot win a war against its own citizens. You guys always think of this like it's gonna be some rednecks shooting uselessly against a tank. It's actually about human beings, and a government telling its soldiers to shoot their friends and family and communities. It's a press that will cover every child bombed by the US government. The idea that the citizenry, as well armed as it is, couldn't overthrow the government is absurd. Of course it could. And furthermore you should want a government aware of such a possibility, to ensure it serves and doesn't rule.

All that happens without guns. Which is more as to why the sort of hypothetical you dream up is unlikely. Real tyranny is likely to come through popular consensus. Or through a breakdown of the country where a powerful group that is likely already in control of the military and has support takes reign.

You always run around these threads crying about these hypothetical situations that don't really work out logically or historically as a way to justify the status quo and it just isnt working. Your far fetched hypothetical doesn't justify 11000+ gun homicides and countless more accidents, injuries and suicides. Furthermore, few who are thinking straight have any notion that all guns will be taken away and banned. Its unrealistic right now. But more gun control isnt and should be pushed for.

The everyday threat from gun violence at this point far outweighs the potential hypothetical scenario where an armed citizenry could theoretically push back against tyranny. A tyranny that is very unlikely to come about in a way that armed citizens would have much impact due to the fact that armed citizens are likely not going to be uniformly in agreement.

 

[Skux]

I feel Australian weapons law is overly restrictive, I mean, things like airsoft, paintball guns and pellet guns are banned there, wtf. Goes beyond saving lives to being an authoritarian nanny state. Are many people getting killed by those items being legal? You're even more restrictive than the UK, lol. I can still buy this stuff in the UK without a license if under a certain joule limit or something.

New Zealander here. Worth it.

I'm so glad I live in a country where I can go to a nightclub, a school, or a concert, and not have to worry about being murdered by armed loons who can buy guns from the supermarket.

America's situation would be farcical if it wasn't so tragic.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

Worth it.

The irony here is that you have a gun in your profile pic, lol

It's worth it though, we're not making world wide headlines for gun shooting after gun shooting.

Doesn't happen here either. People seem to think I'm talking about real guns here. I have never gone out and got shot by a pellet gun and I never have to worry about it either. Crimes with pellet guns are extremely low here considering their easy availability.

 

[AnathemicOne]

The irony here is that you have a gun in your profile pic.



Doesn't happen here either.

What? We had a single target shooting in Orlando 2 days ago and now a mass shooting as of 1 day ago/right now.

 

[trembli0s]

I think we should ban the public from buying AR's. They aren't used for hunting, and they are overkill for self defense. They serve no purpose other than causing mass human casualties from my prespective

This guy was a security guard so I'm not sure what that would have done here. He likely has legal access to a variety of firearms.

 

[A Link to the Past]

A drawn gun in someone's profile picture isn't ironic, that makes no sense

What? We had a single target shooting in Orlando 2 days ago and now a mass shooting as of 1 day ago/right now.

Let's not forget the shooting we almost had

 

[Jonm1010]

The real issue in regards to this tragic event is how to revoke or suspend the second amendment rights of an American citizen suspected of having ties to known terrorists or espousing terrorist ideologies.

I understand the shock and rage at guns, but to be blunt "ban all guns!" isn't going to happen and to me is just as stupid as morons going out in the next few days and buying up as much guns and ammo as they can because they fear Emperor Obama will finally execute his executive order.

That being said I've said time and time again that each individual state will need to decide for themselves how to want to deal with it. Being Florida, honestly, I don't expect anything to change. But let's not pretend there are not states that didn't at least TRY (as poor as some of their specific policies were and as common sense as other specific policies were) to adapt their gun laws to a 21st Century w/ 2A. NY, CT, CA are examples.

That being said debating the efficiency of the rifle is mostly irrelevant to me as he could have killed as many people with a wide variety of different gun types. The key should be how to keep someone on a terror watchlist from possessing and purchasing a firearm.

I think a layer of due process should be added to those "watch-lists" this way it can be perfectly legal to block someone on a terror watchlist from obtaining a firearm.



The only way the Second Amendment goes away is once it's relegated to irrelevancy due to non-use. One could make the argument that is exactly what's happening now as less people are purchasing firearms (although they do purchase more of them). It's easy to see a time (not in out lifetime) where no one will really push back against such an endeavor since no one is really owning guns like that.

I don't agree with it, but that could be one direction the current trend leads to.

And how do we reduce Sandy Hook? The Planned Parenthood in Colorado? Charleston? the 11,000+ homicides a year?

A watchlist isn't going to do much for any of them. Gun control is a MUST if you care about reducing gun violence. The facts pointing it toward it are just too overwhelming at this point.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

A drawn gun in someone's profile picture isn't ironic, that makes no sense



Let's not forget the shooting we almost had

Forgot to mention I live in the UK, this isn't a problem I have to worry about, thankfully. On that note, I need to sleep.

 

[lastplayed]

New Zealander here. Worth it.

I'm so glad I live in a country where I can go to a nightclub, a school, or a concert, and not have to worry about being murdered by armed loons who can buy guns from the supermarket.

Well I wonder how Winz staff feel.

I mean I get your point, but loons who want a gun in NZ have plenty of options.

 

[beast786]

Nod, I can respect that, but isn't the issue also linked to Western or not? I just think it is dangerous and hurtful to lambaste an entire religion because of ten countries. Do all the believers in those countries agree with those decisions or are they motivated to withstand out of fear?

Isn't apostasy also punishable by death in those countries, how about adultery? Those countries and those Muslims are individuals who have failed to join the 21st century, much in the same way that previous religions have failed.

How do we push them to change, what do we do about the homeland?

First , I again want to be clear. We can't broad brush all Muslims . I want to be clear.

First we need to recognize inherent problem with Islamic scripture. That is why Islamic state are caught in 1400 year old social society because Quran mimics spiritual guidance of New Testament but also authoritarian guidance of how to live every aspect of your life, how to govern , how, who to marry , what to eat .., it literally governs every aspect of your daily life like the Old Testament . Difference is vast vast majority believe in Quran as absolute word of God and hadithds as perfect way to live.

The above needs to be challenged . As an ex Muslim and outsider we need to support reformist not apologist. And there are movements that support it.

 

[Darren870]

There actually a lot of fun. Go out and shoot some cans or targets. Iv only ever used an air soft and a BB gun.

There's quite a difference between these and what I would call true guns. Not to say someone couldn't get injured, but you aren't going on a killing spree with these. And they should have orange tips to tell police what they are. And imo they should never try to be disguised as other guns.

I used rubber band guns to shoot targets.

Listen, I'm an American living in Australia. I grew up shooting real guns, bb guns, pellet guns etc. Never airsoft as I was older when they came out. My brothers did though, and they just wound up shooting the bullets at each other.

I know what you are saying, but my life wouldn't have been any different if none of those things existed growing up. Especially when I see news articles every month of someone being killed because they had a "toy" gun on them and no one can tell the difference.

I vastly prefer the rules here in Australia. It's become a fucking joke when I turn on the news and the only time home seems to be in the news is for shootings or this election. Makes going to parties great!

 

[A Link to the Past]

First , I again want to be clear. We can't broad brush all Muslims . I want to be clear.

First we need to recognize inherent problem with Islamic scripture. That is why Islamic state are caught in 1400 year old social society because Quran mimics spiritual guidance of New Testament but also authoritarian guidance of how to live every aspect of your life, how to govern , how, who to marry , what to eat .., it literally governs every aspect of your daily life like the Old Testament . Difference is vast vast majority believe in Quran as absolute word of God and hadithds as perfect way to live.

The above needs to be challenged . As an ex Muslim and outsider we need to support reformist not apologist. And there are movements that support it.

I just wanted to say

You have no seconds and two firsts

That makes me very unhappy. :[

 

[Steel]

This guy was a security guard so I'm not sure what that would have done here. He likely has legal access to a variety of firearms.

Uh... Security guards aren't supposed to have guns(generally). Security guards aren't cops.

 

[beast786]

I just wanted to say

You have no seconds and two firsts

That makes me very unhappy. :[

Damit 😞

 

[yepyepyep]

The irony here is that you have a gun in your profile pic, lol



Doesn't happen here either. People seem to think I'm talking about real guns here. I have never gone out and got shot by a pellet gun and I never have to worry about it either. Crimes with pellet guns are extremely low here considering their easy availability.

Its a bit strange that you are fixating on Australia's ban of pellet guns. I'm an Australian and wasn't even aware there was a ban on pellet guns. Its quite a niche thing so no one really gives a shit if you can't own one.

 

[MikeDown]

The US government cannot win a war against its own citizens....

Worked out pretty well for the government with the stand off in Oregon. Quite frankly this country really needs a dictator.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

"I complained multiple times that he was dangerous, that he didn't like blacks, women, lesbians and Jews," Gilroy told The Times on Sunday.

Mateen threatened violence in front of him, Gilroy said. Once when Mateen saw an African American man driving past, he said he wished he could kill all black people, using a racial slur, Gilroy recalled.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na...ken-off-a-terrorist-1465772737-htmlstory.html

Holy shit

 

[Laieon]

What? We had a single target shooting in Orlando 2 days ago and now a mass shooting as of 1 day ago/right now.

But it's not that bad!

Worked out pretty well for the government with the stand off in Oregon.

The stand off in Oregon wasn't about 50% of the country.

 

[Steel]

Worked out pretty well for the government with the stand off in Oregon.

I would have thought Civil War. And the rebellions that cropped up after the country was formed. But sure.

 

[Jonm1010]

I mean, fair enough. Like I said previously, tons of damage can be done with a wide variety of firearms.

And I'm being specific to the incident that this thread is about: There needs to be a way to add due-process when someone is on a terror watch list and there needs to be more in-depth analysis of someone once they're on it. It's sad that this guy apparently had contact with a dude that ended up suicide bombing in Syria and his own co-workers contacted authorities cause he was saying that terrorist shit. How many more red flags are required?

I mean how quick do you want the government to be able to basically treat you like you have already committed a crime? That is what you are arguing here.

To me it seems like this may be one of those scenarios that very little could of been done about unfortunately.

Perhaps a more robust set of monitoring and restrictions around guns could of prohibited him access to certain guns or a certain quantity and maybe a longer process and waiting time could of brought up more red flags to deny the request for the purchase. Maybe the time to clear his head would of made him re-think his whole thing. Maybe he still goes through all of it and comes out the end shooting up the nightclub two months from now.

What I do think a more robust set of restrictions and monitoring would do is over the long term take a nice chunk out of the 11,000+ gun deaths every year.

 

[everyday math]

I used rubber band guns to shoot targets.

Listen, I'm an American living in Australia. I grew up shooting real guns, bb guns, pellet guns etc. Never airsoft as I was older when they came out. My brothers did though, and they just wound up shooting the bullets at each other.

I know what you are saying, but my life wouldn't have been any different if none of those things existed growing up. Especially when I see news articles every month of someone being killed because they had a "toy" gun on them and no one can tell the difference.

I vastly prefer the rules here in Australia. It's become a fucking joke when I turn on the news and the only time home seems to be in the news is for shootings or this election. Makes going to parties great!

Nah I get you. Don't worry and if you've seen my posts I'm pretty anti-gun. But it only goes so far. I have no problem with people owning these. And kids should never have easy access to them anymore. Should be under parent watch.
Btw I had rubber band guns too. Those were pretty freaking fun.

 

[MikeDown]

But it's not that bad!



The stand off in Oregon wasn't about 50% of the country.

Militia members and conservatives don't make up %50 percent of the country. Where is that static coming from out of curiosity?

 

[Mammoth Jones]

And how do we reduce Sandy Hook? The Planned Parenthood in Colorado? Charleston? the 11,000+ homicides a year?

A watchlist isn't going to do much for any of them. Gun control is a MUST if you care about reducing gun violence. The facts pointing it toward it are just too overwhelming at this point.

I said I was talking specifically in the context of this terror attack.

 

[DOWN]

The hell at people saying 'bans on semi-auto and assault weapons can't stop all shootings and wouldn't have stopped Paris etc.'

If it can prevent even a handful of shootings it should be done. Doing nothing about guns is the wrong answer.

 

[Laieon]

Militia members and conservatives don't make up %50 percent of the country. Where is that static coming from out of curiosity?

Conversations aren't the only people who want guns, I know plenty of democrats who aren't fond of the idea of having their hobby taken away from them. 50% is a bit of an exaggeration admittedly, but the amount of people who aren't okay with the idea of gun control for whatever reason is obviously a bit higher than a couple dozen people in Oregon.

 

[Jonm1010]

Conversations aren't the only people who want guns, I know plenty of democrats who aren't fond of the idea of having their hobby taken away from them. 50% is a bit of an exaggeration admittedly, but the amount of people who aren't okay with the idea of gun control for whatever reason is obviously a bit higher than a couple dozen people in Oregon.

It swings depending on the point in time and the proposed question/policy people are asked about.

There are actually surprisingly a decent amount of gun control proposals that regularly garner a majority of support.

A total ban? no. But things like expanded background checks? Closing the gun show loophole? Federal tracking database? Assault Weapons bans? Yeah, theres pretty solid support.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/01/05/5-facts-about-guns-in-the-united-states/

 

[Roarak]

Didnt Obama go after the gunshow loophole?

The gun show loophole doesn't really exist in the way people think it does. The overwhelming majority of firearms vendors at gun shows are are commercial and retail dealers with an active FFL that allows them to sell firearms to the public. Any dealer with an FFL must have the buyer of ANY firearm fill out a form 4473 and be submitted to an NCIS background at the time of the purchase. This includes gun shows. There is a very small amount of ppl that will rent booth space at major gun shows and sell from a private collection. It is actually illegal for a FFL dealer to sell a firearm privately.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

The gun show loophole doesn't really exist in the way people think it does. The overwhelming majority of firearms vendors at gun shows are are commercial and retail dealers with an active FFL that allows them to sell firearms to the public. Any dealer with an FFL must have the buyer of ANY firearm fill out a form 4473 and be submitted to an NCIS background at the time of the purchase. This includes gun shows. There is a very small amount of ppl that will rent booth space at major gun shows and sell from a private collection. It is actually illegal for a FFL dealer to sell a firearm privately.

You can get out of here with this. There are plenty of private sellers walking around at gun shows with guns on them ready to barter, sell, and trade. We have a gun show once a month within two miles of my house.

The gun show loophole is something that fully exists and if it is so rare you shouldn't have any issue getting rid of, no? After all, everyone is for background checks.

 

[NHarmonic.]

This has been a really sickening and sad weekend. RIP Christina Grimmie and RIP to all the victims at this shooting...

 

[rob305]

The gun show loophole doesn't really exist in the way people think it does. The overwhelming majority of firearms vendors at gun shows are are commercial and retail dealers with an active FFL that allows them to sell firearms to the public. Any dealer with an FFL must have the buyer of ANY firearm fill out a form 4473 and be submitted to an NCIS background at the time of the purchase. This includes gun shows. There is a very small amount of ppl that will rent booth space at major gun shows and sell from a private collection. It is actually illegal for a FFL dealer to sell a firearm privately.

Theres still a lot of smaller booths selling used guns at gun shows in south florida. No background checks needed to purchase used guns, no waiting period required. Not even the serial number gets registered, you pay the money and walk out with the gun, thats it. Same goes for armslist. As a seller youre not even required by law to obtain the buyers name. You just need to make sure the buyer is 18.

I'm an active NRA member but this obviously needs to be addressed, no one should be able to legally obtain a firearm without going through a background check.

 

[faceless007]

1) Don't post other people's Facebook walls without their permission.
2) Don't post stupid conspiracy theories, it just fuels misinformation.
3) Keep it to confirmed, verified reports.

 

[Jonm1010]

You can get out of here with this. There are plenty of private sellers walking around at gun shows with guns on them ready to barter, sell, and trade. We have a gun show once a month within two miles of my house.

The gun show loophole is something that fully exists and if it is so rare you shouldn't have any issue getting rid of, no? After all, everyone is for background checks.

Yeah private sellers are pretty common around here as well. I have a friend who bought from a private seller at a gun show when I went with him back when I was 19 and curious what they were all about.

It shocked me then and it still shocks me today how easy the process was to buy a gun.

 

[mr2t]

Militia members and conservatives don't make up %50 percent of the country. Where is that static coming from out of curiosity?

You can make an insurgent force larger than the US military with a small percentage of gun owners. Then expect a large percentage of the military to defect anyway because they aren't generally the most liberal type.

 

[Roarak]

They're grandfathered in I believe, so previous owners can still own them.

Any machine gun manufactured after 1986 is illegal for civilians to own. Full stop. You can own anything made before 86 with a class III FFL, which costs about 30k in fees and a year or so of background checks. There aren't many class III guns on the market anymore, so prices have adjusted accordingly. A Vietnam era M14 or M16 will run you about 50 grand these days

 

[Strider_Blaze]

Ridiculous. Simply ridiculous!

R.I.P. to the victims and condolences to their friends and family. And hoping the injured manage to make full recoveries.

 

[rob305]

Any machine gun manufactured after 1986 is illegal for civilians to own. Full stop. You can own anything made before 86 with a class III FFL, which costs about 30k in fees and a year or so of background checks. There aren't many class III guns on the market anymore, so prices have adjusted accordingly. A Vietnam era M14 or M16 will run you about 50 grand these days

This is not true, its a couple of hundred dollars. I think theres actually an annual renewal fee too. However, you are right about gun prices. A gun will cost you 20k+

 

[x Power Pad Death Stomp x]

My friend Kimberly was a bouncer at the club and she didn't make it. All this arguing seems pointless. She just started there the first week of June. Shit sucks, we're all a mess here.

 

[Jonm1010]

Nice to actually see CNN being a bit responsible right now.

Just tuned in and they are speaking to an openly gay Imam and a Muslim radicalization expert and was a fairly grown up interview. Which is surprising from CNN.

 

[MikeDown]

Conversations aren't the only people who want guns, I know plenty of democrats who aren't fond of the idea of having their hobby taken away from them. 50% is a bit of an exaggeration admittedly, but the amount of people who aren't okay with the idea of gun control for whatever reason is obviously a bit higher than a couple dozen people in Oregon.

When it came down to it, the majority of those militia members disbanded. Personally I would love to see some sort of middle ground where firearms are restricted to one's personal property and anything beyond that is a felony. And I think most sensible Americans would agree in a type of compromise. People have no business owning assault rifles, you can't justify it. I know marines that would agree with that statement. I use to be against most forms of gun control, and the really sad thing is that it took me all these people getting shot for my eyes to be opened. The whole issue is really complicated and more then simply ban all guns, and quite frankly I would argue that those people groups who preach hate and do not respect or value people's lives have no place in western society.

You can make an insurgent force larger than the US military with a small percentage of gun owners. Then expect a large percentage of the military to defect anyway because they aren't generally the most liberal type.

Granted I live in Oregon (not the most conservative state), but I know many marines who were very critical of the militia members. Sure, it is probably mixing apples and oranges, but I would be willing to bet most gun nuts have not been in any branch of the military, with maybe the exception of the Coast Guard.

 

[Jonm1010]

My friend Kimberly was a bouncer at the club and she didn't make it. All this arguing seems pointless. She just started there the first week of June. Shit sucks, we're all a mess here.

Wow, thats awful. Sorry for the loss. Can't imagine how difficult this whole thing must be.

 

[EdibleKnife]

My friend Kimberly was a bouncer at the club and she didn't make it. All this arguing seems pointless. She just started there the first week of June. Shit sucks, we're all a mess here.

Christ. My condolences, Power Pad

 

[User1608]

My friend Kimberly was a bouncer at the club and she didn't make it. All this arguing seems pointless. She just started there the first week of June. Shit sucks, we're all a mess here.

I'm sorry. My condolences.

Nice to actually see CNN being a bit responsible right now.

Just tuned in and they are speaking to an openly gay Imam and a Muslim radicalization expert and was a fairly grown up interview. Which is surprising from CNN.

Indeed, it was great.

 

[AnathemicOne]

My friend Kimberly was a bouncer at the club and she didn't make it. All this arguing seems pointless. She just started there the first week of June. Shit sucks, we're all a mess here.

I'm sorry for your loss, truly I am. I was wrecked after Christina's death 2 days ago and with this mass shooting I feel furious. I fully believe banning guns is the absolute goal that must be worked towards, gun regulations can be a part of the process of achieving that goal but as I've stated previously we had 2 decades so far of discussing such regulations that have not come to fruition yet.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

My friend Kimberly was a bouncer at the club and she didn't make it. All this arguing seems pointless. She just started there the first week of June. Shit sucks, we're all a mess here.

Exceptionally sorry for your loss, shit isn't fair and it shouldn't happen. Please know, as meaningless as it sounds you are in peoples thoughts. Cannot even begin to imagine, I'm so sorry.