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[Earthstrike]

You are obscuring my words. I never said religion didn't play a single mother fucking part. But people are pointing at Islam as the SOLE predictor in this case, and not looking at culture wide anti-lgbt argumentation that lead to a man kill people in a fucking night club where people go to be with friends and family and be themselves during PRIDE month.

Fine.

Keep arguing away about how so awful Islam is and gun control without one second pointing at the obvious element that lead to this tragedy despite it being a CLEAR middle finger to our community and how much we are valued.

I didn't quote you, nor was I referring to what you said. Your post is founded on a false premise. I haven't been able to read every page of this thread becaue of it's size. My comment was on a rough overview on people who don't want to see this as a multi-part issue, where ease of access to guns, ideology, and the quality of the mental health system all play key roles. The only problem is the role of ideology is disputed when it shouldn't be. Ditto for gun control, but we already have enough people taking that on as it is fairly logical. It is harder for people to take up the task of looking at ideology as religion is often treated on the same grounds as gender, race or sexuality when there are arguments when it shouldn't be given that religion is not an immutable genetic trait, and people have the freedom to choose what they believe.

 

[Diffense]

It is harder for people to take up the task of looking at ideology as religion is often treated on the same grounds as gender, race or sexuality when there are arguments when it shouldn't be given that religion is not an immutable genetic trait, and people have the freedom to choose what they believe.

Exactly.

I was raised a Christian and I am 100% sure that I'm not one today. I don't know of a single credible "ex-gay".
Even some high-profile mouthpieces of "reparative therapy" have come out and admitted that they're still gay.
The identity of the unreasonable and immoral side in this "debate" is absolutely clear to me.
It's the ones who are asking the impossible. If you think "live and let live" is impossible, you're sick...and a danger to society.

 

[FreedomFighter]

This always happens, smh.

Can't wait for NRA folks to start making statements. We all know what they'll say though: "If all those clubgoers were armed, this would not have happened! They could've taken out the gunman and saved lives!"

 

[PlayALLtheGames]

How? LGBT are still men/women and have the same rights under the constitution as everyone else. So they are 'constitutionally protected' the same as others.

No, they aren't.

http://www.workplacefairness.org/sexual-orientation-discrimination

Outside of the newly clarified right to marry, there is currently no federal law prohibiting other types of sexual orientation discrimination. Sexual orientation is not protected by federal law the way race, color, sex, religion, national origin, age, and disability are for private employers. Around two dozen states still don't have anti-discrimination laws protecting individuals from being discriminated against on the basis of their sexual orientation.

 

[captive]

http://www.pinkpistols.org/2016/06/12/pink-pistols-saddened-by-attack-on-orlando-club/



I agree with some of her points though I don't think weapons like the AR-15 are needed for self-defense.

thats all well and good, but people want to blame this on radical islam, people want to blame racism for charleston, mental illness for any number of mass shootings. All that does is make people want to blame those things and do nothing about guns.

But we can blame those things while we also make the tools used by those harder to get.

 

[MikeDown]

Oh, hold on, I think I've got something right here...let me check...oh, hey, here it is. I found your problem.

It's called ALL OF HISTORY.

Life is trash for the common people when they don't have a direct say in governance.

The Romans were led by dictators and look what they were able to accomplish.

 

[FreedomFighter]

It's interesting to watch some of the reactions in this thread and relate them back to the recent abortion shooting. Noone had a problem of relating the abortion bombings to the constant bombardment that vilifies abortion doctors and planned parenthood as evil organizations and the constant rhetoric of the right wing.

But if a person grows up in a religious environment that bombards an individual with anti-gay rhetoric, and that rhetoric is in the qu'ran, and spoken at the mosque, and homosexuality is deemed unethical by its adherents at large, then why should that not be considered a contributing factor in this case?

I agree with this. So long as we're not singling out Islam here, it's a discussion worth having. And just to note, Christianity and the Bible is equality intolerant.

 

[Pantaghana]

The Romans were led by dictators and look what they were able to accomplish.

The meaning of the word dictator has changed with time. The way Romans did it is different to the modern meaning of the word, it's also not something many people today are familiar with.

That tweet is very poorly thought out. Don't know if it was posted to make us say how stupid it was or because someone thought she had a point?

How? LGBT are still men/women and have the same rights under the constitution as everyone else. So they are 'constitutionally protected' the same as others.

Firing someone for being black is considered discrimination and is illegal.
Firing someone for being gay or trans isn't.

By that logic they don't have the same protections as everyone else.

 

[MogCakes]

The amount of people without conscience enough to murder with wanton abandon is disturbingly high. What a world we live in.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

That tweet is very poorly thought out. Don't know if it was posted to make us say how stupid it was or because someone thought she had a point?



How? LGBT are still men/women and have the same rights under the constitution as everyone else. So they are 'constitutionally protected' the same as others.

No, we aren't. LGBT isn't listed as a protected class like other groups are.

 

[Dr_Boris_Goltz]

gun sales always spike after a mass shooting. gun nuts are amazingly paranoid and stock brokers are amoral opportunists.

My brother (a gun nut) said he was up all night last night because the, "...world is going to hell."

 

[CrispyBoar]

This is sad. And we wonder why more gun control is needed.

Tired of hearing shootings everywhere. When is this going to end? When?

 

[beast786]

If I had to guess, the comparison exists because people who do these things as a matter of their job deemed it the appropriate comparison.

It also makes sense in context because we are talking about Muslims in the US vs. Muslims in the Middle East, and to emphasize that Muslims in the US are significantly less fundamentalist than the ones in the Middle East (and as such, you cannot discount the geographical location as being a major part of why homosexuality is illegal in the Middle East).

Here is why that graph is misleading.

Take a look at the range from Protestant which is 62% versus the evangelist horriblly scary 28%. Just like the horrific video I posted , if you expect a person with Christian background to commit these act it wouldn't be shocking that it be in that 62% percent of evangalist who do not support homosexuality as per that chart.

But here is that comparison failure. Why aren't Muslim breakdown among its donomination? Are we to assume all Muslim have no such diversity? Of course there are same equal breakdown in Muslims from Sunni /Shia / Sufi or even school of thoughts like salafi, Wahhabism etc. then we can truly compare and see what percentage of conservative Muslim approve of homosexuality versus evangalist and vise Versa with liberal muslims

 

[dave is ok]

Why is this specifically about white members for certain religious groups?

 

[John Dunbar]

I'm sorry if this has been asked already, but does anybody know what happened to the son of the sobbing interviewed mother?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/i-dont-know-son-dead-8174571

he died.

 

[benzy]

http://www.pinkpistols.org/2016/06/12/pink-pistols-saddened-by-attack-on-orlando-club/



I agree with some of her points though I don't think weapons like the AR-15 are needed for self-defense.

The mentality that we can help and prevent future psychopaths from acting on their violence is a futile dream and a poor argument against guns being the issue. You will never be able to predict what one person does and you can never control what they think. What we can do is prevent said people from using a weapon that can easily destroy hundreds of lives in an instant. If rocket launchers were legal and easy to access there would be a shit ton more deaths than what just occurred. The lady's notion that the weapons used are irrelevant and unimportant is such a foolish look at the situation. It was a hate crime and that subject is not being shoved aside, let's also not pretend that guns had nothing to due with the number of lives taken.

 

[beast786]

I agree with this. So long as we're not singling out Islam here, it's a discussion worth having. And just to note, Christianity and the Bible is equality intolerant.

That is absolutely true at the scripture level, in fact you can make a valid point that Old Testament is even much worse than Quran

But, the difference is how above view there scriptures. Vast vast vast majority of Muslims believe that Quran is unadulterated , direct word of God with no man interval, it's an absolute word of God in its original form and all the laws and way of life is the absolute gold standard no ifs and buts. Christianity on other hand at least by poll is not the case , 2 out of 3 in USA do not see bible as absolute word of God , and that is USA which is probably the most religious western country

So yes the scripture problem is in all Abraham faith but the way they see it is vastly different and that is the toughest thing about fighting conservative islam

 

[FreedomFighter]

The amount of people without conscience enough to murder with wanton abandon is disturbingly high. What a world we live in.

We as a nation need to also examine this from a holistic perspective too. I don't think it's a coincidence that we have this kind of unmitigated carnage so often at home AND being at constant warfare - be they official or dirty wars - perpetually. We're pretty shielded from how people's lives are affected by signature drone strikes at wedding parties or the anguish that occurs when Blackwater/XE/Academi wantonly open fire in Nusoor Square. Just sayin'.

 

[paperboywriter]

Heard on the radio the guy was in fact a self pronounced member of Isis. Is that correct?

 

[CyclopsRock]

Eh, shooting as a sport is actually growing in the UK, there have been an increase in the number of firearms licenses granted apparently according to a friend who owns a shotgun. Also tons of people in the UK own airguns, which are entirely legal to buy and own without a license. Not to mention the popularity of sports like airsoft and paintball. I remember at university there was a target shooting club and there was a lot of interest from people. The culture of the UK definitely does still involve a strong interest in guns thanks to popular culture. Also there is a growing undercurrent of Europeans wanting US style gun laws because they want to defend themselves against immigrants or something stupid like that.

Well I'm pretty sure firearms offences are either falling or remaining stagnant. In fact, I seem to remember (sorry, I got no sources) reading about how the police are basically able to work out which gun was used in each shooting that occurs in the UK - not the gun type, but literally the gun - because there are so few that they basically get bartered around by the crims that use them. Obviously it's not impossible to get a gun, but it's very, very expensive which makes their use something of a "specialist" occurrence, which cuts down on the majority of crime related to them. So either there aren't more guns being sold or otherwise the regulation around them is sufficient to keep them out of the hands of nutters, for the most part.

I used to have an air rifle, I loved it. Plinking shaken up cans of Asda smart price Cola in the garden, great fun. But I don't think that's the same as in the US. I also used to have Nerf guns and super soakers. That sort of "pew pew, daka-daka-daka-daka" war games as a kid isn't what leads to people having AR-15's to defend their homes or believing that their gun is a constitutional right (which it is, obviously, as per the existing interpretation of #2).

 

[EdibleKnife]

Heard on the radio the guy was in fact a self pronounced member of Isis. Is that correct?

Before the shooting, he called 911 and pledged allegiance to ISIS

 

[Mr. Giggles]

Heard on the radio the guy was in fact a self pronounced member of Isis. Is that correct?

Yea, read that too!

He called 911 to pledge allegiance then hung up

 

[paperboywriter]

So this wasn't just a hate crime but also a terrorist attack. Here we go again.

 

[Adaren]

Man, this is just wrecking me today. Can't stop thinking about what it must have been like to be there, final thoughts, what their loves ones are going through right now...

 

[Diffense]

thats all well and good, but people want to blame this on radical islam, people want to blame racism for charleston, mental illness for any number of mass shootings. All that does is make people want to blame those things and do nothing about guns.

But we can blame those things while we also make the tools used by those harder to get.

That's not untrue. But TBH, I don't think the underlying issues are broached as often as we'd like perhaps because they're even more uncomfortable than talking about banning guns. As another poster once implied "that's easy" and seems as if it would make a difference on paper.

Yet, the underlying reason for the events at Pulse is an undercurrent of social acceptance of the extirpation (or at least invisibility) of gays validated largely by religious denunciation of "the lifestyle". Despite legal gains, society nurtures anti-lgbt sentiment so we shouldn't be surprised when some people act violently. Pulse is only shocking due to the extent of the carnage.

But talking about how to address this problem is a lot less "easy" than talking about banning guns.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

That's not untrue. But TBH, I don't think the underlying issues are broached as often as we'd like perhaps because they're even more uncomfortable than talking about banning guns. As another poster once implied "that's easy" and seems as if it would make a difference on paper.

Yet, the underlying reason for the events at Pulse is an undercurrent of social acceptance of the extirpation (or at least invisibility) of gays validated largely by religious denunciation of "the lifestyle". Despite legal gains, society nurtures anti-lgbt sentiment so we shouldn't be surprised when some people act violently. Pulse is only shocking due to the extent of the carnage.

But talking about how to address this problem is a lot less "easy" than talking about banning guns.

You can talk about both. And guns dont need to be ban. They need to be limited and have layers of protection so some dude can't just get a gun and go to town on people they dont like. That is something that is more than worth talking about.

People with their gun obsession are so fucking weird. If you aren't going to do crazy dumb dangerous shit with your gun, why wouldnt you want all these restrictions immediately? Or is there just something about carrying an assault rifle that is comforting to people?

 

[Diffense]

You can talk about both. And guns dont need to be ban. They need to be limited and have layers of protection so some dude can't just get a gun and go to town on people they dont like. That is something that is more than worth talking about.

People with their gun obsession are so fucking weird. If you aren't going to do crazy dumb dangerous shit with your gun, why wouldnt you want all these restrictions immediately? Or is there just something about carrying an assault rifle that is comforting to people?

Not sure why you quoted me when your response didn't really follow from my post. For example, where did I say both can't be discussed?
Honestly, I think some people have a single-minded obsession with amending gun laws and turn every tragedy into a talking point for that issue.
And yes, gun lovers conveniently mention underlying causes at this point as a deflection tactic. What we need is some balance.

 

[Jag]

Heard on the radio the guy was in fact a self pronounced member of Isis. Is that correct?

Supposedly he claimed ties to Hezbollah before the shooting. It's one of the reasons he was investigated earlier according the head of the FBI.

 

[The Lamonster]

edit: wrong thread

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Not sure why you quoted me when your response didn't really follow from my post. For example, where did I say both can't be discussed?
Honestly, I think some people have a single-minded obsession with amending gun laws and turn every tragedy into a talking point for that issue.
And yes, gun lovers conveniently mention underlying causes at this point as a deflection tactic. What we need is some balance.

When someone goes crazy and kills people with legally obtainwd firearms ismt that like the perfect time to talk about amending gun laws? As ot proves they once again clearly dont work?

My issue with people that want to turn this into an issue of ideology is iideology isn't what people take into clubs or churches to kill people with. It's guns. Until people just straight up abandon ideological religions that promote radicalism attacks of this nature will happen.

So what does it make sense to focus on. Restricting the ability of people to get guns or talking about how radical islam is bad?

 

[Spinluck]

It amazes me how people are so willing to jump to banning guns and anti-muslim arguments instead of just targeting the largest elephant in the run: anti-lgbt rhethoric.

There are plenty of people that hate gays and cover it up with some bullshit reason, but I'm not sure how many of them have it in them to be a mass murderer.

This violence won't end, just last year we had a racist kid murdering black church members. If this country really values human life, it's time they start showing it. Doesn't matter if you're gay, black, white, transgender. Something has to be done about this, guns can't keep going unchecked.

I hate having to politicize the issue and I feel like a massive hypocrite for doing so, but I just can't stand seeing this anymore.

Sidenote: I live right outside of Orlando and have a ton of friends that live there, and some of them are gay. The day of the shooting I was frantically checking FB to see if everyone was ok and I noticed they had a "mark safe" feature. Thought that was pretty neat.

 

[Testicular Sound Express]

I'm already over all the "Don't politicize this tragedy" BS. Until religious leaders and politicians stop debating what rights they think LGBTQ folk should enjoy and cease advancing policies that harm us, the way LGBTQ individuals live, love, socialize, and die will remain radically political.

 

[Kev Kev]

Born and raised in Daytona Beach and Orlando is like a second home to me. I've enjoyed many nights and weekends, concerts, festivals, sporting events, my own brother's bachelor party and so much more in "The City Beautiful". After listening to my favorite talk shows on Real Radio 104.1 all day it has finally started to hit me. I'm listening to The News Junkie right now and I've just heard that the kill count has been decreased from 50 to 49 due to the killer being subtracted from the original kill count. The idea being that the shooter was not a victim therefore he should not be included in the victim death toll.

Maybe it's not important enough to do so (especially since it doesn't say 50 victims, but 50 dead, which is true) but I feel that we should change the thread title out of respect for the victims and their families. Seriosuly, fuck this shooter and giving any sympathy to his death. Just how I feel, and apparently I'm not alone. I searched the thread for someone else calling for this but I didn't find anything. So I may be alone on this but I believe we should change the title as to not give credit to the shooter whatsoever. I will happily accept any criticism as to why that shouldn't be done, maybe I'm wrong, I'm just so heart broken with this happening in my backyard that I want to do anything I can to take any glorification away from this fucking coward as much as I can.

 

[paperboywriter]

There are plenty of people that hate gays and cover it up with some bullshit reason, but I'm not sure how many of them have it in them to be a mass murderer.

This violence won't end, just last year we had a racist kid murdering black church members. If this country really values human life, it's time they start showing it. Doesn't matter if you're gay, black, white, transgender. Something has to be done about this, guns can't keep going unchecked.

I hate having to politicize the issue and I feel like a massive hypocrite for doing so, but I just can't stand seeing this anymore.

Sidenote: I live right outside of Orlando and have a ton of friends that live there, and some of them are gay. The day of the shooting I was frantically checking FB to see if everyone was ok and I noticed they had a "mark safe" feature. Thought that was pretty neat.

There has to be a massive social movement to finally get guns in check otherwise you are just have to accept the fact that things like that are going to continue to happen. You can't count on a political solution to this problem, the NRAs influence on politicians is to big.

 

[MogCakes]

Just sayin'.

I'm not sure I understand your point. What exactly are you trying to say here?

 

[Mael]

What a fucking travesty it ended up being.
I think it may be time to stop pretending lawmakers care about people dying.

 

[LizardKing]

Perception isn't always reality. I literally burst out laughing when I hear Americans say yeah but what about "knife crime in the UK" as if that's some silver bullet that will put holes in anti-gun people's arguments. Ironically they only end up shooting themselves in the foot.

The real issue that people don't seem to talk about is that gun bans have not proven to reduce the rate of gun crime. People just assume it does, because many places that banned them have always been relatively safe. Crime rates don't actually drop after the bans (and often go up)....

http://crimeresearch.org/2013/12/murder-and-homicide-rates-before-and-after-gun-bans/

It just hasn't proven affective.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

The real issue that people don't seem to talk about is that gun bans have not proven to reduce the rate of gun crime. People just assume it does, because many places that banned them have always been relatively safe. Crime rates don't actually drop after the bans (and often go up)....

http://crimeresearch.org/2013/12/murder-and-homicide-rates-before-and-after-gun-bans/

It just hasn't proven affective.

Those are some of the worst graphs ever.

First of all it's conflating gun crime with murder in general.

Secondly the first graph uses a bizzare metric of million people which would make a statistically in-signification change look like a much bigger jump than it is. Use per 100,000 like every other crime stat.

The second graph has .2 intervals which is WTF.

the third is randomly talking about Jamaica? We have stable government here.

The group you link to is a trashy pro-gun group with no scientific integrity. Let the CDC study this stuff.

 

[LizardKing]

Those are some of the worst graphs ever.

First of all it's conflating gun crime with murder in general.

Secondly the first graph uses a bizzare metric of million people which would make a statistically in-signification change look like a much bigger jump than it is. Use per 100,000 like every other crime stat.

The second graph has .2 intervals which is WTF.

the third is randomly talking about Jamaica? We have stable government here.

So in other words, you didn't read the article.

 

[KRod-57]

I got to go to sleep, working tomorrow . Will for sure give you my response 😊

I look forward to your reply, you can certainly give me more insight from a Muslims perspective, but perhaps I can give you some insight from the Christian perspective. I should note that Christianity has a bloody history, but became less radical when the church's political power was reduced

 

[Pizoxuat]

NPR has an article up with what we know right now about the killer. He has been off the no-fly list since 2014. And his allegiances are a bit screwy.

The FBI director also filled in more details about the events of the early hours of Sunday morning. The first shots were reported around 2 a.m. – and Comey said that beginning around 2:30, the gunman made or received three calls with the local 911 service. In one, the gunman called and hung up. In the second, he called and spoke to the operator only briefly. But in the third, in which the operator called the gunman back, Mateen apparently spoke more fully.

That call, Comey said, introduced conflicting information to the investigation, as Mateen claimed to be pledged to ISIS — but he also said he was inspired by the bombers who attacked the Boston Marathon (and who did not affiliate themselves with ISIS), as well as a Florida man who carried out a suicide bombing for the Al-Nusrah Front in Syria – a rebel group that has frequently clashed with ISIS.

 

[Plinko]

The real issue that people don't seem to talk about is that gun bans have not proven to reduce the rate of gun crime. People just assume it does, because many places that banned them have always been relatively safe. Crime rates don't actually drop after the bans (and often go up)....

http://crimeresearch.org/2013/12/murder-and-homicide-rates-before-and-after-gun-bans/

It just hasn't proven affective.

LOL those are the worst formatted graphs I've seen outside of Fox News.

 

[Syder]

Seeing distraught relatives of victims on the news is always gut-wrenching. Shame it won't change anything.

 

[Mael]

So in other words, you didn't read the article.

Next time you could make your point with excerpt from the article instead of dumping figs like they went out of style.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

So in other words, you didn't read the article.

There's like 4 paragraphs and it doesn't counter any of the points I raised.

LOL those are the worst formatted graphs I've seen outside of Fox News.

Look on the about page. Its one of fox's go-to "experts"

 

[Mael]

Seeing distraught relatives of victims on the news is always gut-wrenching. Shame it won't change anything.

The worst part is that there will be a conspiracy theory that will try to deflect the issue and make it about how the gov is about to get you.

 

[LizardKing]

LOL those are the worst formatted graphs I've seen outside of Fox News.

That's pretty sad if that's your only response to relevant, factual, statistical information. Defecting much? Why don't you prove to me the opposite is true? Because you can't. It doesn't matter what source you try to pull from, because these are the statistics.

 

[exmachina64]

Sidenote: I live right outside of Orlando and have a ton of friends that live there, and some of them are gay. The day of the shooting I was frantically checking FB to see if everyone was ok and I noticed they had a "mark safe" feature. Thought that was pretty neat.

It was introduced after the Paris attack.

 

[Bleepey]

The real issue that people don't seem to talk about is that gun bans have not proven to reduce the rate of gun crime. People just assume it does, because many places that banned them have always been relatively safe. Crime rates don't actually drop after the bans (and often go up)....

http://crimeresearch.org/2013/12/murder-and-homicide-rates-before-and-after-gun-bans/

It just hasn't proven affective.

There was a small increase in knife crime then that shit began to fall heavily. I am on my phone but I'll look into the other stats.

 

[Mael]

[img ]https://static-secure.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/maps_and_graphs/2010/01/21/CrimeGunKnife.gif[/img]

There was a small increase in knife crime then that shit began to fall heavily. I am on my phone but I'll look into the other stats.

But we all know that a gun ban is supposed to negatively affect ALL violent crimes!