Solemn_In_Berlin
Member
Alright. Sorry if I rubbed you the wrong way but I really was genuine with it. I just wanted a crash course, first and foremost. If my approach was terrible then I really do apologize.
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Mass shooting at Orlando gay nightclub [50 dead, 53 injured]
- Thread starter dc89
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Alright. Sorry if I rubbed you the wrong way but I really was genuine with it. I just wanted a crash course, first and foremost. If my approach was terrible then I really do apologize.
I don't intend to pick on you, but religious people need to get this out of their heads. A condemnation of ideology is not automatically a condemnation of every follower.
A silly example:
The Wal-Mart employee handbook suggests that all employees not fraternize with homosexuals because they are believed to be sinful. Even if only a couple of stores enforce this rule, and only 0.01% of employees follow the rule, it is still reasonable to criticize and condemn Wal-Mart for promoting such a concept (regardless of their success rate). Period. No excuses.
Regardless of what you personally believe, if your religion has hateful rhetoric within it's text (a text which is meant to be taken as the word of God and to be followed as such), then it deserves to be criticized as such.
Yes, most religious people are good. We know. We aren't against you personally.
Freezie KO
Banned
Religion and guns are two shitty tastes that taste even worse together.
The truth is that we have to combat religions preaching illiberal ideas because they lay the groundwork. Not everyone is a mass killer, but like the father, they create the foundation where mass killers thrive.
And then we need to combat the access to firearms that these killers want to use.
The truth is that we have to combat religions preaching illiberal ideas because they lay the groundwork. Not everyone is a mass killer, but like the father, they create the foundation where mass killers thrive.
And then we need to combat the access to firearms that these killers want to use.
A strange level of sympathy I have seen from friends and family who were not necessarily cool with the gay community in the US. They were never super supportive of gay rights in the US, but they are super pissed that someone would target and murder them.
So if there is a positive, I have a relative that has used the word fag in a very negative way in the past, and he was tearing up at this incident.
I believe he feels like shit after the incident in Orlando, and as a result has become much more sympathetic to homosexuals. Whatever his own prejudices were, they were not violent. And he has gone from "those fags" to those poor victims."
Not a free pass for his past beliefs, but I think this horrific violent act has turned him around on the whole gay thing.
So if there is a positive, I have a relative that has used the word fag in a very negative way in the past, and he was tearing up at this incident.
I believe he feels like shit after the incident in Orlando, and as a result has become much more sympathetic to homosexuals. Whatever his own prejudices were, they were not violent. And he has gone from "those fags" to those poor victims."
Not a free pass for his past beliefs, but I think this horrific violent act has turned him around on the whole gay thing.
Joel Was Right
Member
This entire thing does give the impression that it was a hate crime first and foremost.
Joel Was Right
Member
Do you have specific questions or do you want an introduction? You can PM me or visit the Islam subreddit.
I'm not sure if this was posted yet, but this article gives a little insight into the lives of the victims.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/heres-know-orlando-victims-000000001.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=fb
In one part is shows the texts from the victim to his mother. You will literally shake if you haven't seen it yet. Take caution.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/heres-know-orlando-victims-000000001.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=fb
In one part is shows the texts from the victim to his mother. You will literally shake if you haven't seen it yet. Take caution.
What exactly do you mean? It was a targeted mass murder of gay people, of course it was a hate crime. I'm a little confused with what you are getting at here.
Tell that to Rick Scott.
While there are certainly aspects of most religious teachings that deserve criticism I've always gotten the impression that living conditions have a significantly greater impact on attitudes towards "others" and being stirred to violence than a lot of people give them credit for. Something the data backs me up on.
Christopher
BDE (Big Dad Energy)
My stomach hurts oh my god...
Depending on how you want to look at it, the data also shows religion plays a major role..
Yes it does. But I've also observed that the disaffected tend to be more drawn towards religion in the first place. The relationship between violence, economic outlook and religion is pretty complicated and I don't think that you can safely take one of those pieces out and observe it by itself.
EDIT: I tend to come at religion from the angle of cultural necessity though so I'm predisposed to seeing religiosity as a symptom and propagator of societal ills rather than the initial cause.
One thing that pissed me off is this:
3:20 mark.
https://youtu.be/X75iFs10g8A
This dude really just say he blocked and held the emergency exit? he gotta fined or jailed for thst. Who knows if because of his actions many more were shot. There were some survivors stating the emergency exit was held shut.
Oh and guess what? He's an actor. He even has an IMDb page. Luis burbano
And check this out..look how the news media are erasing and cutting out what he said about holding the emergency exit:
http://6abc.com/news/inside-the-orlando-nightclub-carnage-witnesses-speak-out/1382186/
3:20 mark.
https://youtu.be/X75iFs10g8A
This dude really just say he blocked and held the emergency exit? he gotta fined or jailed for thst. Who knows if because of his actions many more were shot. There were some survivors stating the emergency exit was held shut.
Oh and guess what? He's an actor. He even has an IMDb page. Luis burbano
And check this out..look how the news media are erasing and cutting out what he said about holding the emergency exit:
http://6abc.com/news/inside-the-orlando-nightclub-carnage-witnesses-speak-out/1382186/
Pertinent:
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-1101-zuckerman-violence-secularism-20151101-story.html
Of course, as the last paragraph says, correlation is not causation but I stick with my theory: God, the "jealous" patriarchal male one, is the Devil...if there is one.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
the dad also says he's president of Afghanistan, apparently. the guy is a kook.
Well yeah the disaffected tend to religion that doesn't stop the fact that out of violence, economic outlook and religion only 1 says that god wants to kill homosexuals.
You can take that part out and draw some pretty logical conclusions...Like poor atheists have a lot less reason to be homophobic than poor Christians/Muslims that follow their religions closely.
The BBC translated the father as saying "The issue with homosexuality and punishment is up to God alone. This is not in the hands of human beings."
http://www.bbc.com/news/video_and_audio/headlines/36515029
Theanine3D
Member
I made the mistake of looking at the comments of that YouTube video. People are already calling the whole tragedy a hoax created by gun control activists. My god. What an insult to those who are currently grieving.
And yeah, blocking the emergency door was a shitty thing to do. But what does being an actor have to do with anything?
Posting for new page - I think people are getting are getting outraged over a poor translation... The BBC has the father as saying ""The issue with homosexuality and punishment is up to God alone. This is not in the hands of human beings."
http://www.bbc.com/news/video_and_audio/headlines/36515029
http://www.bbc.com/news/video_and_audio/headlines/36515029
What exactly is your problem? What's right is right. What's nonsense is nonsense.
When damaging delusions are coddled we end up with oppressive theocratic states.
Never may that happen anywhere I reside. I'll quicker buy guns...if they're still legal.
Lady Gaga gave a beautiful speech today at a Vigil and I'm just crying in response to it. What if this happened when I went out with my boyfriend to the local gay club? What if it happened to my friends? None of these people deserved any of this. None of those people that lost their lives in a place where they could 100% be nothing other than themselves. None of their friends and family should be going through this. None of the LGBT community deserves to live in fear because of shit like this. I'm still so mad and upset.
Yeah people saying hey that book that has led and continues leading to LGBT people around the world to have less rights, to be jailed and to be killed; should probably be taken less seriously. That's the disgusting part...
No one I've seen says religion plays no role in things like this, but plenty of people try to downplay its role in all kinds of horrible things.
From what I can see, people saying this are responding to the original quote that the shooter's father gave to NBC claiming that the shooting had nothing to do with religion. He was full of shit.
And what's wrong with discussing the driving force that motivated the killings? Do you honestly think that we are happy about this and want to be rewarded? Stick your medal up your ass.
I don't see much difference to be honest. Speaking of punishment for homosexuality in any terms is disgusting. What exactly is "the issue" he is referring to that needs addressing from God?
The father supports the Taliban over in Afghanistan, that's more then enough to know about his world view.
That's exactly what this sounds like:
No generic anti-religious bigotry at all. Sounds like self-congratulatory backslapping to me.
Freezie KO
Banned
I think most of us just want not to be killed by a religious fanatic. And we think that by raising the critical issues, rather than hand-waving the issue of religion, we may help to reduce the possibility of getting murdered.
Moff
Member
what I want is for people to stop spreading more hatred into this world based on ancient books. not that I think this is the solution, but not a bad start.
Well that's kind of what most muslims I know want to. The ease with which people slip into modes of bigotry is no less terrifying as a muslim. I mean what must a gay muslim on gaf be reading here. Jesus.
I'm sure most Muslims don't want all gay people to be killed, but trying to say Islam (and religion in general) doesn't have a problem with homosexuality is just not true.
Freezie KO
Banned
I dunno. You'd have to ask them. Maybe this discussion is good because we're discussing the inherent rift between their sexuality and their religion that holds a present and historical hatred of that sexual identity. Maybe this discussion would've helped someone who, possibly like the shooter, was heavily conflicted between hardline religious dogmas and his own sexuality.
I'd be much more worried about what a gay muslim hears in a madrassa than what he hears on GAF.
Who is saying this? You build up an image of Muslim Gaf that isn't recognisable to me. Muslim gaf are raising funds for the survivors as we speak.
Who are you having this discussion with?
You can ban all guns, and lock up all terrorists, yet as long as religion keeps breeding hate and divisiveness against the LGBT community, violence against it will continue.
Children are indoctrinated to view LGBT as unnatural and aberrant. When they grow up, if they find out they're LGBT, self hatred takes over unless they have a supporting family. Many don't overcome it which leads to countless suicides. That's the tragedy of it all. Do we hear condemnations from these religious leaders for their own doing in this?
When such views are so deeply ingrained in individuals, it will inevitably lead to the mentally unstable ones that will take it a step further and commit these unspeakable acts of violence.
This is the MAJOR point most people here are making. To miss it, is to miss the forest for the trees.
Lol, I wasn't sure if you were trying to defend his statements or something.You must be unfamiliar with religion
Those first two quotes are from people responding to the father's hypocrisy. It's sarcasm directed at the absolute absurdity of his statements. On the day of the shooting he claimed in a statement to NBC that the murders had "nothing to do with religion". Then he says that God is responsible for punishing gay people.
The third quote I agree is silly, but there are also some people brushing off the religious angle here, such as:
And then it doesn't help when you just go ahead and associate criticism of religion with personal attacks:
Criticizing religious concepts and ideology or at the very least having it discussed is not in any way, shape or form bigotry. See my post here.
GHG
Member
The graph you posted doesn't say anything about religion.
We're not in a madrasah, we're on gaf. And all I see is more hatred.
I mean, unless he lives in America, in which case you should probably start worrying about chapels before madrassas.
http://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-orlando-attack-2016-6#pq=Nv5PTT
Singling out Islam seems like special pleading here. If we're worried about religions because of their danger to gay Americans, shouldn't we be throwing a cordon around Brigham Young University?
Yes, many muslims on gaf and around the world are doing great things like spreading tolerance and raising funds for survivors and other great things. But when people bring up how religion plays a role in homophobia around the world you try to deflect and put up strawmen.
You say things like
No one said that, people are just saying that religion had an impact on this and has an impact on LGBT people all over the world. And it's a thing that should be discussed.
That Walmart example is the worst example I've seen in defence of bigotry.
Freezie KO
Banned
Hating people is bad, of course, but hating bad ideas can be a good thing. That's how we make progress.
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We're singling out Islam because this is a thread about a mass shooting in Orlando by someone who pledged allegiance to ISIS. It's not a contest, of course, but the Christian right is worrying about bathrooms while this guy is carrying out the biggest mass shooting in American history.
That said, I have no love for the Christian right, and if the attacks are racial (such as in Charleston), then I have no problem calling that terrorism either.
Sounds like the usual attempts at making people you disagree with out to be shitty people when you start to lose hold of the narrative.
I wonder why people can hate Nazism but they can't hate Islam or Christianity. We're talking about belief systems here not races or genders. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if the latter two have caused or condoned more death and destruction than the former (though they've subsequently split into countless sects based generally on how literal/crazy they want to be).
Though religions may be "sacred cows" to adherents that does not necessarily apply to non-believers. Especially on a venue as impersonal as a forum, I don't think it should be necessary to tiptoe around the issues. Sadly, in real life, religious people generally react badly if their fancies are challenged though they have no problem knocking on *your* door with the "good news".
Though religions may be "sacred cows" to adherents that does not necessarily apply to non-believers. Especially on a venue as impersonal as a forum, I don't think it should be necessary to tiptoe around the issues. Sadly, in real life, religious people generally react badly if their fancies are challenged though they have no problem knocking on *your* door with the "good news".
D
Deleted member 30609
Unconfirmed Member
edit: no need to add to the noise
He also pledged allegiance to Hezbollah, which are kind of contradictory statements. It's also clear that he didn't have any particular contact with any terrorist groups, nor do the people close to him describe him as particularly religious. It sounds more like an excuse for violence than a proximate cause. I am not sure given all the information we have why people would treat that call with particular credence.
It strikes me that this guy was filled with anger and hate, and felt disconnected from others, much like a hundred other mass shooters in America. The difference is that those mass shooters were white and nominally Christian, and this guy was Afghani and nominally Muslim.
CountAntonius
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