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Mass shooting at Orlando gay nightclub [50 dead, 53 injured]

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So it is almost certainly confirmed that the killer was a self-hating gay man. That would help explain his unusual current supposed impetus of "seeing two gay men kissing" as in context being the moment that pushed this conflicted man into committing such a horrid massacre. The conflict between the hate clearly preached by his archaic father and his own inner feelings mixed with elements of Elliot Rodgers style loathing of those who wouldn't sleep with him seems to be the motive. I bet the father found out he was gay, and his abuse played a role in the development of this killer: explains why the father seems so fixated about defending his son's straightness moreso than anything else, casting his own son as a bloodthirsty monster (which in the end he was) rather than downplaying it just for the sake of saying his son was straight. Would also explain why the killer strangely pledged allegiance to Hezbollah AND ISIS despite the two groups being enemies: he was not a sleeper cell agent of ISIS, but a lone wolf for whom anti-gay propoganda finally twisted into a monster. I expect that a part if the killer's motive was a twisted "atonement" for being gay.
 
You're assuming he did it because they were gay though? Maybe he just chose that place because he knew it well(if he had been there) and knew it would be fairly easy to kill a bunch of people.

Multiple sources are coming out and saying he has been at that bar years, and his college classmate said he came out to him.

He chose that place because he was probably tormented on the inside and had so much self hatred that he turned it onto others.

The more I read the more I doubt he was actually a follower of ISIS, and more of a dude who was internally tormented with being gay but having the upbringing he had with someone like his father.

Dude snapped and went postal
 
So it is almost certainly confirmed that the killer was a self-hating gay man. That would help explain his unusual current supposed impetus of "seeing two gay men kissing" as in context being the moment that pushed this conflicted man into committing such a horrid massacre. The conflict between the hate clearly preached by his archaic father and his own inner feelings mixed with elements of Elliot Rodgers style loathing of those who wouldn't sleep with him seems to be the motive. Would also explain why the killer strangely pledged allegiance to Hezbollah AND ISIS despite the two groups being enemies: he was not a sleeper cell agent of ISIS, but a lone wolf for whom anti-gay propoganda finally twisted into a monster. I expect that a part if the killer's motive was a twisted "atonement" for being gay.

This is going deep. Damn.
 
Yeah, Don Lemon and the other guy went as far as calling the ISIS angle a "ruse."

Maybe there was SOME interest in radical extremism, but maybe not enough to amount to being the primary motive.
 
It sounds like he was living a double life. Going to the mosque with his father and son regurlarly and living a life with his wife and son. Another life trying to date guys and going to the club frequently.

From a determinist point of view. He could be seen as a victim ( not justifying the killing part) . Being biologically gay . Raised by parent who are outspoken ( YouTube ) taliban supporter. Lived in a guilt where he couldn't be himself . And see his urges as absolute worse sin. and repent it by killing what you sin.

Damn , what a mess of a situation. Two things you can't choose. Sexual orientation and parents.
 
You're assuming he did it because they were gay though? Maybe he just chose that place because he knew it well(if he had been there) and knew it would be fairly easy to kill a bunch of people.

It would make sense, I'm just spitballing here but he could have been brainwashed since childhood to hate or at least not tolerate homosexuals. Would try to live a heterosexual lifestyle all the while always having that confusion in the back of his mind.

He'd get married and have a kid, but still not be able to shake off the homosexual tendencies. He probably hated who he has and wanted others like him to suffer (Blaming them for his problems).

He could have just as easily gone to a heterosexual nightclub instead of driving down 2 hours to Pulse if it was just a matter of a lot of people in the same small building.
 
Exactly guys. Let's not turn this evil man into a martyr just because he's sucked a couple of dicks.

Who's turning him into a martyr here? The guy is still a lunatic for taking it as far as he did.

It just so happens that, given the information available to us now, it's rather straightforward to come up with his motive behind the massacre, as it's not an uncommon sentiment.
 
apparently the guy was on gay dating apps, and asking about other clubs in the area. who knows what it all means. apparently he had been to the club multiple times.


i feel like there's more to this story, i won't be surprised if the dad is somehow involved indirectly.
 
Who's turning him into a martyr here? The guy is still a lunatic for taking it as far as he did.

It just so happens that, given the information available to us now, it's rather straightforward to come up with his motive behind the massacre, as it's not an uncommon sentiment.

I forgot the word "inadvertently." There can be a lot of "softening" of his crime and his intentions when we try to rationalize what he did in certain ways. The biggest thing is that we still don't know the full story when it comes to this guy, and it could all be more complex or more simple than any one issue.
 
Let's suppose he was a self-hating gay.

So what?

The societal conditions that breed homophobia in straight people are the same that would breed self-hatred and homophobia in a gay person. Nothing changes. And in this case, the major societal factor was religion - something we can't deny.

The other major factor here is gun access, which has been discussed to death and has nothing to do with sexuality.

"The father of the gunman in the Orlando nightclub shooting said early Tuesday his son shouldn’t have carried out the massacre because "God himself will punish those involved in homosexuality.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...se-nightclub-says-he-was-a-good-a7079411.html

But reading the Guardian today I could have sworn religion had nothing to do with this! /s
Don't want to be the classic fedora tipping atheist here, but I can't help it. It is what it is.
 
apparently the guy was on gay dating apps, and asking about other clubs in the area. who knows what it all means. apparently he had been to the club multiple times.


i feel like there's more to this story, i won't be surprised if the dad is somehow involved indirectly.

inb4 Fox News "it was part of the gay agenda".
 
Let's suppose he was a self-hating gay.

So what?

The societal conditions that breed homophobia in straight people are the same that would breed self-hatred and homophobia in a gay person. Nothing changes. And in this case, the major societal factor was religion - something we can't deny.

The other major factor here is gun access, which has been discussed to death and has nothing to do with sexuality.

It's just another point to the story to think about.

Religion and gun control are still the biggest factors.
 
It's just another point to the story to think about.

Religion and gun control are still the biggest factors.

Sure, it's a human interest point. It's certainly tragic. But in terms of reacting to this and learning from it, the fact that this guy was gay won't make a huge amount of difference, imo. We still need to tackle islamic homophobia from the root up and tackle gun access either way.
 
"The father of the gunman in the Orlando nightclub shooting said early Tuesday his son shouldn’t have carried out the massacre because "God himself will punish those involved in homosexuality.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...se-nightclub-says-he-was-a-good-a7079411.html

But of course, religion is not at fault!

So tired of religious leaders' hypocritical condemnations, when the next day they go back to their places of worship and keep calling LGBT abomination and unnatural.
 
Sure, it's a human interest point. It's certainly tragic. But in terms of reacting to this and learning from it, the fact that this guy was gay won't make a huge amount of difference, imo. We still need to tackle islamic homophobia from the root up and tackle gun access either way.

What is your point with the "so what"? Do you think people will make this about something else because he was gay? Seems like people are only surprised because it adds another layer to this fucked up story and not because it takes away from the issues of what happened.
 
Let's suppose he was a self-hating gay.

So what?

The societal conditions that breed homophobia in straight people are the same that would breed self-hatred and homophobia in a gay person. Nothing changes.

You're right. 50 people are still dead. However, motive is still a matter of public concern, so there is no reason why talking about this aspect of it should not be allowed.

It's also important to point out that hatred of others is different than hatred of yourself. In some cases, the latter can be even more devastating and can cause you to lash out at people similar to you.

There are many facets to this massacre and what led up to it, and they all deserve their proper due. Saying that something on this scale can be attributed to just one sole thing is an oversimplification of massive proportions.

Religion
ISIS propaganda
Mental health
Sexual orientation
Homophobia
Upbringing
Gun control

These are all valid points of discussion which have been brought up time and again in this thread alone. Disallowing discussion on any of these topics is simply shutting out other viewpoints and explanations into what could have made a man into a monster.
 
"The father of the gunman in the Orlando nightclub shooting said early Tuesday his son shouldn’t have carried out the massacre because "God himself will punish those involved in homosexuality.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...se-nightclub-says-he-was-a-good-a7079411.html
This quote can't be real. Everyone knows religion has nothing—I repeat, absolutely nothing—to do with spreading homophobia and inciting violence against the Other. This retrograde tribalism couldn't be farther removed from the mild, peace loving religions of the modern world.

Right you guys?
 
This quote can't be real. Everyone knows religion has nothing—I repeat, absolutely nothing—to do with spreading homophobia and inciting violence against the Other. This retrograde tribalism couldn't be farther removed from the mild, peace loving religions of the modern world.

Right you guys?

Only guns motivate people! All religions are about peace and love anyways.

Meanwhile we have another totally not religious motivated shooting in Paris.
 
Just 'going' to a gay bar doesn't necessarily make you gay - I've been to plenty over the years because they are just fun places to be, and I'm straight. I'll admit though that it would be very strange to go to one if you were a homophobe....also I'm not on any gay dating sites either so.....very strange turn of events.
 
If it wasn't religion it would be something else. Religion is about the morals at least in my opinion.

Religion has no claim on morality. Especially in the modern climate where much of the harassment directed at lgbt people is based in religious terms.

This tragedy is a stark reminder of the dangers of religious "morality" and how it demonises specific groups of people.
 
I don't really want to sound ignorant or naive but it seems like I have to. Can anyone tell me what is the reason that religion, in particular Islam (if applicable), is causing tragedies such as this? Are we understanding it wrong? Where is the peace in this religion of peace?

I know religion isn't the only factor into this but I feel like I ought to be attentive. I don't have embodied experience and neither do I personally know people who do, but my queer friends are really affected by this and they don't know why this really had to happen. I don't know either so I'm throwing this question out there.

EDIT: Yeah I kinda know what it means for Islam to be an ideology and not just a religion but can we go deeper than that?
 
If it wasn't religion it would be something else. Religion is about the morals at least in my opinion.

Ah yes, religion can never lead to anything bad, but somehow is the only thing that can lead to the development of morality. Despite evidence otherwise that morality is an evolved trait.
 
Religion has no claim on morality. Especially in the modern climate where much of the harassment directed at lgbt people is based in religious terms.

This tragedy is a stark reminder of the dangers of religious "morality" and how it demonises specific groups of people.

If their wasn't religion the hate will still be around. I am Catholic but I don't have that hatred. I am not the only one. Religion is just stories about morals and lessons. Might not be real but I believe.
 
Don't know if this was posted before.
That was sophomore Omar Mateen, according to one of the accounts from former students in Stuart, Fla., remembering 9/11 and the reaction by the student who, nearly 15 years later, would carry out the worst mass shooting in U.S. history.

The recollections of Mateen’s actions could not be independently verified, and the memories could be clouded by the years that have passed. But similar versions were detailed in separate interviews. As the snapshot in time, the recollections appear to offer yet another stitch in the wider tapestry of Mateen’s life and views before Sunday’s rampage, which included his pledge of loyalty to the Islamic State during a call to police during the standoff.

In an interview, Robert Zirkle, then a freshman at Martin County High School, said he saw Mateen excited and making fun of how America was being attacked on 9/11. “He was making plane noises on the bus, acting like he was running into a building,” Zirkle recalled. “I don’t really know if he was doing it because he was being taught some of that stuff at home or just doing it for attention because he didn’t have a lot of friends.”

“Before 9/11 happened, we were pretty straight. We all rode the same bus. We weren’t really close friends, but friends at least a little,” he added, noting that Mateen attended the Spectrum Alternative School, a separate campus in Stuart for students with poor grades or behavioral issues.

“After 9/11 happened, he started changing and acting different,” Zirkle said.

One former student told Zirkle on Facebook that on 9/11, the students were watching the TV in class. On the group chat, the former student wrote that Mateen “stood up in class during the 9/11 attack and after the second plane hit the building he started jumping up-and-down cheering on the terrorist.”

One former student who was sitting in the same class as Mateen remembers the morning of 9/11 clearly: “Teachers said turn on the TV. We see the one plane hit. And then see second plane hit … [Mateen] was smiling. It was almost like surreal how happy he was about what happened to us.”

The former student said Mateen went on to claim that Osama bin Laden was his uncle. The ex-classmate spoke on the condition of anonymity for fear of business clients finding out he attended an alternative school. Mateen’s claim of family links to bin Laden was also mentioned by Zirkle.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ome-say-he-celebrated/?utm_term=.28e14bf0f6e2
 
What is your point with the "so what"? Do you think people will make this about something else because he was gay? Seems like people are only surprised because it adds another layer to this fucked up story and not because it takes away from the issues of what happened.

Well yeah, that's what I'd be afraid of. 'Mentally deranged homosexual attacks other homosexuals, nothing to do with normal people...' etc. Not here on GAF, obviously. But yeah I know some ignorant homophobic people for whom that information would change how they process this. I live in quite a homophobic country.

You're right. 50 people are still dead. However, motive is still a matter of public concern, so there is no reason why talking about this aspect of it should not be allowed.

It's also important to point out that hatred of others is different than hatred of yourself. In some cases, the latter can be even more devastating and can cause you to lash out at people similar to you.

There are many facets to this massacre and what led up to it, and they all deserve their proper due. Saying that something on this scale can be attributed to just one sole thing is an oversimplification of massive proportions.

Religion
ISIS propaganda
Mental health
Sexual orientation
Homophobia
Upbringing
Gun control

These are all valid points of discussion which have been brought up time and again in this thread alone. Disallowing discussion on any of these topics is simply shutting out other viewpoints and explanations into what could have made a man into a monster.

I'd never seek to disallow any part of the discussion whatsoever. Just pointing out what parts I think are important (islam's homophobia and gun control - note that I haven't boiled that down to 'just one sole thing') and those I find less so (his sexuality). And I agree that self-hatred is the strongest, most dangerous kind.
 
I don't really want to sound ignorant or naive but it seems like I have to. Can anyone tell me what is the reason that religion, in particular Islam (if applicable), is causing tragedies such as this? Are we understanding it wrong? Where is the peace in this religion of peace?

I know religion isn't the only factor into this but I feel like I ought to be attentive. I don't have embodied experience and neither do I personally know people who do, but my queer friends are really affected by this and they don't know why this really had to happen. I don't know either so I'm throwing this question out there.

EDIT: Yeah I kinda know what it means for Islam to be an ideology and not just a religion but can we go deeper than that?


I feel that if you were genuine with that question, you would go out to get books or a mosque to learn about Islam rather than starting from the context of terrorism.
 
If their wasn't religion the hate will still be around. I am Catholic but I don't have that hatred. I am not the only one. Religion is just stories about morals and lessons. Might not be real but I believe.

Without religion we would still have morality though.

I don't want to derail any further though, but I guess the point is that if you can't blame religion you certainly can't credit it either.

Happy for people to believe what they want to of course, until they impose on other peoples lives and rights.
 
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