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[reckless]

The graph you posted doesn't say anything about religion.

The West in general is the least religious and also the most accepting?

If you want one just based on religion then

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=206955096&postcount=5344

 

[knkng]

That Walmart example is the worst example I've seen in defence of bigotry.

I wasn't using that to defend bigotry, I'm trying to explain that criticism of the organization is not automatically the same thing as criticism of it's followers. I even said it was a silly example, purely intended to replace "religion" (which is typically heavily guarded) with "corporation" (which people feel more open towards criticizing).

I don't see any bigotry in this thread. You just appear to be personally offended because people are criticizing your religion (based on what I've observed in your posts).

 

[Ashes]

Hating people is bad, of course, but hating bad ideas can be a good thing. That's how we make progress.

I don't disagree. Sometimes things can go the other way. LIke right now, I just had a conversation with my sister about not using the tube to get to work. So I may unnecessarily be riled up. But I am reading the quotes I read again and they read to me like typical backslapping self-congratulatory quips.

 

[Freezie KO]

He also pledged allegiance to Hezbollah, which are kind of contradictory statements. It's also clear that he didn't have any particular contact with any terrorist groups, nor do the people close to him describe him as particularly religious. It sounds more like an excuse for violence than a proximate cause. I am not sure given all the information we have why people would treat that call with particular credence.

It strikes me that this guy was filled with anger and hate, and felt disconnected from others, much like a hundred other mass shooters in America. The difference is that those mass shooters were white and nominally Christian, and this guy was Afghani and nominally Muslim.

The NPR report I listened to today (source: On Point podcast) said he would go to the mosque 3-4 times a week, which would definitely make him particularly religious. But in fairness, I know all the facts are still coming together, and I'm open to being corrected if that's no longer the confirmed information.

And while he did pledge allegiance to both Hezbollah and ISIS, you have to admit that those two groups have something in common. He may not have known the inner conflicts between Islamic factions, but he knew he wanted to swear allegiance to an Islamic terror group. It's not like he swore allegiance to ISIS and Greenpeace.

I agree with you that he was filled with anger and hate, but where did he get that from? You can't ignore the surrounding circumstances that he grew up in a Muslim home with a father who thought homosexuality was punishable by his god. And then the guy later swears allegiance to Islamic terror groups, most notably a caliphate.

The religious connection is clear as day, and I fear that if good liberals say nothing about it, you only push people towards far right demagogues who are then perceived as "being honest" because they're the only ones even willing to talk about a very real problem in the religion.

 

[Ashes]

I don't see any bigotry in this thread. You just appear to be personally offended because people are criticizing your religion (based on what I've observed in your posts).

Oh I'm not offended in the way that you imply. And what does it matter even if I were?

I see people dead. And I see fedora tips.

 

[Diffense]

The religious connection is clear as day, and I fear that if good liberals say nothing about it, you only push people towards far right demagogues who are then perceived as "being honest" because they're the only ones even willing to talk about a very real problem in the religion.

This is a point I didn't even fully digest before reading your post. If people perceive a problem that isn't being discussed they'll be drawn to the only people who are even talking about it.

 

[GYODX]

Say what?

I hope you honestly don't believe this.

Of course I do. From the very start of this thread, people like you have tried to make sure that the focus of the discussion was singularly on the need for gun control, and to convince us that the shooter's religion and the homophobia inherent to Islam was somehow irrelevant to the debate that needs to be had in the wake of this attack. So now it comes out that the shooter was possibly gay, and so to say that Islam and its condemnation of homosexuality had plenty to do with his motivations is one possible and perfectly reasonable conclusion. But you and others won't have that.

Please note that I'm not trying to imply that gun control isn't the most important facet of the debate.

 

[Freezie KO]

This is a point I didn't even fully digest before reading your post. If people perceive a problem that isn't being discussed they'll be drawn to the only people who are even talking about it.

This is basically the playbook of right-wing political parties that are gaining ground in Europe.

And you can see it in a polarized America where one "side" wants to only talk about guns or Republican bigotry and the other "side" only wants to talk about radical Islam. I'm just sitting here thinking it's all bad.

 

[Ashes]

Of course I do. From the very start of this thread, people like you have tried to make sure that the focus of the discussion was singularly on the need for gun control, and to convince us that the shooter's religion and the homophobia inherent to Islam was somehow irrelevant to the debate that needs to be had in the wake of this attack. So now it comes out that the shooter was possibly gay, and so to say that Islam and its condemnation of homosexuality had plenty to do with his motivations is one possible and perfectly reasonable conclusion. But you and others won't have that.

You are spectacularly bad at this.

You know you can damn me by quoting my progress through the thread. I suggest you do so.

edit: but having said that I am currently more interested in freeze's debate with diffense.

 

[GHG]

Yeah it is probably all the Christians and Jews in Egypt making up for the 95% negativity towards homosexuals.

Funny you say that considering Egypt is actually 10% Christian.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/eg.html

The West in general is the least religious and also the most accepting?

If you want one just based on religion then

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=206955096&postcount=5344

Again, that doesn't say anything to support your original statement:

I'm sure most Muslims don't want all gay people to be killed, but trying to say Islam (and religion in general) doesn't have a problem with homosexuality is just not true.

I'm not dismissing or disagreeing with your sentiment by the way, I just think that if you are going to make such statements then you need to be using data that is more conclusive to back it up.

As somebody born in the UK whose family hails from Jamaica, I can tell you that prejudice and non acceptance of LGBT individuals is as much of a cultural and social issue as it is a religious one.

i.e. Just because somebody who doesn't accept LGBT individuals is highly religious it doesn't necessarily mean that their beliefs are 100% due to their religion. Can religion be an influence? Of course. Can it be a big influence? Of course. Will it be the ONLY influence? That, I'd find difficult to believe.

 

[knkng]

Oh I'm not offended in the way that you imply. And what does it matter even if I were?

I see people dead. And I see fedora tips.

Well, I guess it matters because it affects the way you approach the discussion. You started by saying "So you're right. What do you want? a medal?" You then go on to make accusations of bigotry.

If I'm right, as you claim, then I would like the topic to be discussed (even if it's a bottomless pit of circular arguments). It matters to me and others like me because I have dealt with homophobia, even from some family members, and it's roots are deeply embedded in religion. Some of us are just sick of seeing this shit.

I'm not tipping my fedora or fishing for a medal or any other stupid meme. But it bothers me when people say "Oh well, religious texts contain homophobia, but what are ya gonna do? Just let it go!" The discussion is multi-faceted, and this is the part of it that has meaning to me.

 

[reckless]

Again, that doesn't say anything to support your original statement:



I'm not dismissing or disagreeing with your sentiment by the way, I just think that if you are going to make such statements then you need to be using data that is more conclusive to back it up.

As somebody born in the UK whose family hails from Jamaica, I can tell you that prejudice and non acceptance of LGBT individuals is as much of a cultural and social issue as it is a religious one.

i.e. Just because somebody who doesn't accept LGBT individuals is highly religious it doesn't necessarily mean that their beliefs are 100% due to their religion. Can religion be an influence? Of course. Can it be a big influence? Of course. Will it be the ONLY influence? That, I'd find difficult to believe.

Of course religion isn't the only reason people are homophobic but trying to say that its not a major and most likely the most important reason is just not using logic.

You have the basis of 3 major religions in the bible and quaran straight up saying gay people should be killed. You have several countries around the world having laws allowing the execution of gay people using their religion as a justification and you have even more laws allowing jailing of gay people based on religion.

Going away from those extreme examples you have plenty of people from ordinary people to lawmakers straight up saying they believe in "traditional marriage" based on thie interpretation of the bible and that's why gay marriage is wrong.

You have people all around the world saying its because of their religions, citing their religious books. And then you have people saying no they are lying its not because religion, those straight up quotes from religious books are just out of context, those people straight up saying religion is their reason are just all lying. And I really just don't understand why.

 

[Diffense]

BTW, homophobia is really a terrible word for the phenomenon we're discussing because it implies fear when the actual emotion is hate. I use it like everyone else does because it is understood as the label used for anti-gay behavior but it is an unfortunate term. It seems reminiscent of the "gay panic defense" as if attackers are so afraid they react violently.

 

[knkng]

Of course religion isn't the only reason people are homophobic but trying to say that its not a major and most likely the most important reason is just not using logic.

You have the basis of 3 major religions in the bible and quaran straight up saying gay people should be killed. You have several countries around the world having laws allowing the execution of gay people using their religion as a justification and you have even more laws allowing jailing of gay people based on religion.

Going away from those extreme examples you have plenty of people from ordinary people to lawmakers straight up saying they believe in "traditional marriage" based on thie interpretation of the bible and that's why gay marriage is wrong.

You have people all around the world saying its because of their religions, citing their religious books. And then you have people saying no they are lying its not because religion, those straight up quotes from religious books are just out of context, those people straight up saying religion is their reason are just all lying. And I really just don't understand why.

Very well put. Even if someone claims that their homophobia is not directly attributed to religion, I truly believe that almost all forms of homophobia have their roots in religious texts and laws. It's just such an influential and overbearing force on our society, whether you've learned it directly from a religious source, or absorbed it via osmosis from other religiously-influenced sources.

As you mention, it is even a common discussion in politics. You may just be a fair-weather Christian and still absorb these concepts from local political leaders who are making decisions based on ingrained religious teachings. It's just so prevalent everywhere you turn. It twists and distorts what should be basic human concepts of right and wrong, giving relevancy to hatred.

 

[Monocle]

How utterly disgusting to find the anti-religious gaf lot positively backslapping themselves over this. Who on gaf is saying it had nothing at all to do with religion like all of you seem to be implying?
So you're right. What do you want? a medal?

Pardon me for being sick of people sweeping religion's homophobic, violence-inciting influence under the rug every fucking time another religious nut murders people. How far do these faith addled psychos have to go before people like you will acknowledge the obvious: that religion often plays a significant and even central role in violent expressions of intolerance?

The spread of homophobia throughout the world is almost exclusively attributable to Christianity and Islam. Take off the blinders and learn your history.

BTW, homophobia is really a terrible word for the phenomenon we're discussing because it implies fear when the actual emotion is hate. I use it like everyone else does because it is understood as the label used for anti-gay behavior but it is an unfortunate term. It seems reminiscent of the "gay panic defense" as if attackers are so afraid they react violently.

"Phobia" covers irrational aversion, not just fear, so the term homophobia is apt.

That's exactly what this sounds like:



No generic anti-religious bigotry at all. Sounds like self-congratulatory backslapping to me.

You're embarrassing yourself. I'm targeting filthy, hate-steeped, mendacious religious dogma. Religious people who are in touch with their own human decency, in spite of homophobic religious teachings, are my allies.

 

[GHG]

Of course religion isn't the only reason people are homophobic but trying to say that its not a major and most likely the most important reason is just not using logic.

You have the basis of 3 major religions in the bible and quaran straight up saying gay people should be killed. You have several countries around the world having laws allowing the execution of gay people using their religion as a justification and you have even more laws allowing jailing of gay people based on religion.

Going away from those extreme examples you have plenty of people from ordinary people to lawmakers straight up saying they believe in "traditional marriage" based on thie interpretation of the bible and that's why gay marriage is wrong.

You have people all around the world saying its because of their religions, citing their religious books. And then you have people saying no they are lying its not because religion, those straight up quotes from religious books are just out of context, those people straight up saying religion is their reason are just all lying. And I really just don't understand why.

The problem with saying "it's all down to religion" is that you are ignoring other factors which in many cases would be easier to influence. It will always be difficult to persuade someone to change their religion. Socioeconomics, education and an individuals general life experiences have big parts to play in all of this.

You can find people who are athiest but will be highly intolerant of LGBT individuals. Why? That person might be an ignorant, uneducated and untraveled individual who has happened to grow up in a lower socioeconomic area and has never left. Their views come from the belief that "anything different is bad".

At the same time you can have highly religious people who are highly tolerant of LGBT individuals. Why? Whilst these people might have once have had shared beliefs on this topic with the athiest I described above this might have changed through traveling, education and general life experiences. Potentially rubbing shoulders with people in the LGBT community and realising that they are no less a human being than themselves.

We will get closer to a solution to this and many other problems in societies around the world if people took a step back from blaming religion and looked at all of the other factors in play. It's easy to blame religion, even somewhat ignorant in itself. If we are ever going to solve this problem then societies need to start removing barriers, promoting inclusion, providing more support and education where necessary, and most importantly promoting critical thinking.

A lot of societies issues and conflicts will be solved if we successfully manage to remove ignorance, not religion.

 

[Ashes]

I'm not tipping my fedora or fishing for a medal or any other stupid meme. But it bothers me when people say "Oh well, religious texts contain homophobia, but what are ya gonna do? Just let it go!" The discussion is multi-faceted, and this is the part of it that has meaning to me.

My vitriol was aimed at a run of posts above what you quoted aka others and I now regret that you may have been caught in the crossfire. And for that am I sorry. Truly I am.

As to the multifaceted discussion, you're perfectly right about. Besada said it best. There are no easy answers.

As to religion, every now and then I look up things, as anyone does I suppose. And I've come to know how much about the religion in question I did not know. And how much patience is required to really know how positions were moulded, and schools of thoughts were created. The very personalities that lie at the crux of some of the deepest divisions. Alas, I forget, and then go back, and relearn other things, and I am still nowhere near adept at this stuff.

Ask away and I will try to engage. But more often these days I tend to question people's knowledge, rather than answer, because people, generally speaking, know far less than they think they know. And if you know less than I, that is a poor place to be.

 

[Acidote]

I'm sure most Muslims don't want all gay people to be killed, but trying to say Islam (and religion in general) doesn't have a problem with homosexuality is just not true.

Proud to be a Spaniard, for once. We were under a backwards catholic dictatorship only 40 years ago.

 

[Dead Man]

If their wasn't religion the hate will still be around. I am Catholic but I don't have that hatred. I am not the only one. Religion is just stories about morals and lessons. Might not be real but I believe.

Yes there would still be hate, but it would be called hate, not religion, and wouldn't have the cover that organised religion provides. Not all religious people are hateful, but they do provide cover for those that are, unintentionally maybe, but it exists all the same.

 

[MarkMclovin]

Are the parents being questioned by the police at all?

I can't help but feel they are part of this especially reading when 9/11 happened, and this kid was jumping for joy and claiming Bin Laden was his uncle.

That hate must have been channeled through his family.

 

[Claude Augario]

Religion is the scapegoat used to cope with the fact that human beings are terrible. We all know that taking away religion tomorrow would just result in new and probably more creative reasons for killing and oppression.

 

[Pantaghana]

If their wasn't religion the hate will still be around. I am Catholic but I don't have that hatred. I am not the only one. Religion is just stories about morals and lessons. Might not be real but I believe.

Hate is easier to justify under the banner of religion. Without religion it's exposed for what it really is, pointless hate.

 

[Monocle]

Yes there would still be hate, but it would be called hate, not religion, and wouldn't have the cover that organised religion provides. Not all religious people are hateful, but they do provide cover for those that are, unintentionally maybe, but it exists all the same.

Also, without religion, hate wouldn't spread so readily. Religion primes people to discriminate by neutralizing their defenses against bad ideas. Religion would have you accept unverified and even debunked claims. Any system that promotes faith must at the same time discourage reason, intellectually honest curiosity, and the willingness to reevaluate beliefs based on evidence.

 

[Ashes]

The spread of homophobia throughout the world is almost exclusively attributable to Christianity and Islam. Take off the blinders and learn your history.

Be assured that it's on my to do list. What books do you suggest?

What do you think are the roots of homophobia? I mean before religion. On a human level.

 

[titiklabingapat]

Lady Gaga gave a beautiful speech today at a Vigil and I'm just crying in response to it. What if this happened when I went out with my boyfriend to the local gay club? What if it happened to my friends? None of these people deserved any of this. None of those people that lost their lives in a place where they could 100% be nothing other than themselves. None of their friends and family should be going through this. None of the LGBT community deserves to live in fear because of shit like this. I'm still so mad and upset.

I'm in the same situation. It's still affecting me a lot today. All these other noise about religion, guns and violence is really secondary to me right now, my friends and our bigger LGBT community at large. It literally could have been any of us. I am still pretty shaken to my core and I'm still terribly upset. Many of my friends are the same way.

 

[umop_3pisdn]

Just drawing attention to religion in the general sense seems specious to me. Religion is almost as varied and flexible as culture is itself. If we're talking about religion it's often not clear what they all have to do with each other. So then it seems like we have to diagnose what the specific problems and abuses for particular religions are, because they aren't all made the same. Otherwise we're just using the word 'religion' to mean powerful ideologies that have the potential to absolve people of responsibility, and then we're just begging the question. "Religions are dangerous because they absolve people of responsibility" and "religions are things that absolve people of responsibility" are together circular arguments. As long as there is nothing inherent in religion that makes it dangerous (and I'm not sure how there could be?) then it seems like religious reform will always be the more sensible option. If religion is insane, make it sane, doctrines can probably be rehabilitated more easily than a lot of people can.

 

[Henkka]

I'm not sure there is a "human level" root cause of homophobia. It was pretty normal in Rome, for instance.

 

[Monocle]

Be assured that it's on my to do list. What books do you suggest?

What do you think are the roots of homophobia? I mean before religion. On a human level.

I'm not going to do your research for you, having seen months if not years of posts where you display a totally incurious attitude and a knee-jerk hostility toward the slightest implication that mainstream religion may have a negative influence in society.

Literally Google "homophobia in religion" and start there. This subject is hardly a new invention.

As for the secular roots of homophobia, it probably boils down to tribalism (and the associated fear of what's socially defined as abnormal). Of which religion is the most virulent expression.

Religion is the scapegoat used to cope with the fact that human beings are terrible. We all know that taking away religion tomorrow would just result in new and probably more creative reasons for killing and oppression.

It's one hell of a delivery mechanism for fear, ignorance, and hatred. Scapegoat wrongly implies that religion is innocent.

 

[reckless]

The problem with saying "it's all down to religion" is that you are ignoring other factors which in many cases would be easier to influence. It will always be difficult to persuade someone to change their religion. Socioeconomics, education and an individuals general life experiences have big parts to play in all of this.

You can find people who are athiest but will be highly intolerant of LGBT individuals. Why? That person might be an ignorant, uneducated and untraveled individual who has happened to grow up in a lower socioeconomic area and has never left. Their views come from the belief that "anything different is bad".

At the same time you can have highly religious people who are highly tolerant of LGBT individuals. Why? Whilst these people might have once have had shared beliefs on this topic with the athiest I described above this might have changed through traveling, education and general life experiences. Potentially rubbing shoulders with people in the LGBT community and realising that they are no less a human being than themselves.

We will get closer to a solution to this and many other problems in societies around the world if people took a step back from blaming religion and looked at all of the other factors in play. It's easy to blame religion, even somewhat ignorant in itself. If we are ever going to solve this problem then societies need to start removing barriers, promoting inclusion, providing more support and education where necessary, and most importantly promoting critical thinking.

A lot of societies issues and conflicts will be solved if we successfully manage to remove ignorance, not religion.

Never said it's all down to religion, but its one of the biggest if not the biggest cause. Tackling the largest reason for a problem seems like a worthy goal. Just because getting people to change their religion is difficult doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

You say things about life experiences being important in leading to acceptance, that relies on people actually being able to meet and see others. In several countries that is just not possible, if someone is openly gay they are at risk of being killed. Even here in the U.S being openly gay can lead to getting fired or even in more personal reactions like your family disowning you,

Of course you can find some atheists that are homophobic and some religious people that aren't, that doesn't change the fact that religious books preach hate against homosexuality. and that many follow that hate because they believe it is the word of god.

You're also ignoring that fact that religion is directly helping put up barriers, be it through laws that allow execution, to laws that allow discrimination. You can go tomorrow to Saudi Arabia and go try to go promote support and inclusion etc... but none of it will matter as long as religion is so central to their law system and the world views of its citizens.

You can make a pretty convincing argument that religion is part of the ignorance. It preaches and promotes hate based on nothing but faith that its what god wants.

 

[Ashes]

Literally Google "homophobia in religion" and start there. This subject is hardly a new invention.

Dude that is literally what I did. And even wiki is more nuanced than you. You were all religion is exclusively to blame. So I wanted to know what you read.

But like I thought, you're no help.

 

[Nephtis]

Just saw Anderson Cooper reading the names of the victims. It was hard to watch - especially so with a guy as professional as he. He always keeps his composure, and he nearly lost it at times. He was in a place with bullets and rocks flying around, went in to remove a kid that had been struck in the head - and continued on unfazed. And this almost did him in. Damn.

 

[Grazzt]

Dude that is literally what I did. And even wiki is more nuanced than you. You were all religion is exclusively to blame. So I wanted to know what you read.

But like I thought, you're no help.

I don't think him or any people here said that.

 

[Einchy]

The white mother who was on the local stations looking for her son, who knew her son's boyfriend got shot, do we know if her son is okay?

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/report-orlando-nightclub-shooter-visited-222620444.html

A former classmate of Mateen's told The Palm Beach Post he believed Mateen was gay, and that Mateen once asked him out romantically.

Chris Callen, who performs at Pulse under the name Kristina McLaughlin, told The Canadian Press and CNN's Anderson Cooper that Mateen had been going to the bar one or twice a month "for at least three years."

An Orlando man told MSNBC's Chris Hayes on Monday that he had seen photos of Mateen on the gay dating apps Grindr, Adam4Adam, and Jack'd over the last several years. At least two of the man's friends had been contacted by Mateen on the apps.

"He was very creepy in his messages, and I blocked him immediately," the man said.

Kevin West, another regular at Pulse nightclub, told the Los Angeles Times that he chatted with Mateen on and off for a year on the gay dating app Jack’d, but had never met him in person. Incredibly, West said he met him for the first time as he was dropping a friend off at Pulse on Saturday night.

The classmate, who did not use his name, said he, Mateen, and other classmates would sometimes go to gay bars after classes at the Indian River Community College police academy.

He told the Post he thought Mateen was gay, but not publicly. He added that Mateen was "awkward" and other members of their friend group felt sorry for him.

"He just wanted to fit in and no one liked him," he told the Post. "He was always socially awkward."

So essentially, he was gay? Someone on Reddit wrote it really nicely how this could be a self-loathing crime.

He was so insecure and ashamed of his sexuality that he goes off on a rampage and takes his anger, frustration and self loathing out on innocent people. The media can talk about gun control, terrorism and religion all they want, but this is truly a case of a man that hated himself so deeply that he could not stand seeing others live an open, honest and happy life within the LGBT community. This attack was loosely inspired by ISIS, but it was also a targeted hate crime orchestrated by a closeted homosexual that knew he would never become the man his religion glorifies. He wasn't a fucking terrorist, not even close. He did not kill those people because of an ideology. He was a low life security guard, shitty father and abusive husband that lived in a dump ass town in Florida who decided to commit a heinous act for reasons that we will never truly know. He was a confused, mentally ill and unstable coward who could not cope with the petty life problems we all face as humans.

 

[reckless]

The white mother who was on the local stations looking for her son, who knew her son's boyfriend got shot, do we know if her son is okay?

He didn't make it.

 

[titiklabingapat]

Just saw Anderson Cooper reading the names of the victims. It was hard to watch - especially so with a guy as professional as he. He always keeps his composure, and he nearly lost it at times. He was in a place with bullets and rocks flying around, went in to remove a kid that had been struck in the head - and continued on unfazed. And this almost did him in. Damn.

It really is different when it's your 'own' people. In this case, he knows full well how the LGBT is already small as it is. Like in my previous post, it really drives home to us that it really could have been any one of us since almost everyone in the LGBT community has been in one at one time or another.

 

[Einchy]

He didn't make it.

That's horrible.

Ever seen the shooting started, I've had her and her son on my mind, was hoping that he at least made it.

 

[Ashes]

I don't think him or any people here said that.

Fine. Monocle said 'almost exclusive'. And further on he cited a second reason, which he said was religious in execution too. so...

Edit: This is still an ongoing news thing, maybe I'll come back later, and let people discuss the news.

 

[Monocle]

Dude that is literally what I did. And even wiki is more nuanced than you. You were all religion is exclusively to blame. So I wanted to know what you read.

But like I thought, you're no help.

I said Christianity and Islam are almost exclusively responsible for the spread of homophobia. How can you say I lack nuance when you can't even recognize it?

I think this spat has reached a suitable point of unresolution, so there's really no point in feeding it further. 50 people are dead because of a zealot with ready access to deadly weapons. That should be focus here.

 

[knkng]

My vitriol was aimed at a run of posts above what you quoted aka others and I now regret that you may have been caught in the crossfire. And for that am I sorry. Truly I am.

As to the multifaceted discussion, you're perfectly right about. Besada said it best. There are no easy answers.

As to religion, every now and then I look up things, as anyone does I suppose. And I've come to know how much about the religion in question I did not know. And how much patience is required to really know how positions were moulded, and schools of thoughts were created. The very personalities that lie at the crux of some of the deepest divisions. Alas, I forget, and then go back, and relearn other things, and I am still no where near adept at this stuff.

Ask away and I will try to engage. But more often these days I tend to question people's knowledge, rather than answer, because people, generally speaking, know far less than they think they know. And if you know less than I, that is a poor place to be.

There's really no need to apologize. I'm the one who quoted you and engaged in discussion with you. I even fired back with some nastiness that I probably shouldn't have.

And yes, you were right in general. There are people who just shit-post garbage in these threads and then disappear forever. But I'm definitely not one of them and I'm glad that you also stuck around to hash it out with me.

And as for religion, you probably know a lot more than I do in general, but all I can ever do is speak from my perspective. I can actually understand why some people may see my ideas as being "high and mighty" or "fedora tipping" or something like that. But the truth of the matter is that it's just plain scary and confusing. I know that there are people in the world who hate me, and the reasoning simply doesn't make any sense.

I always try to make the point that my criticism is not lobbied against the individual, but religion is just such a powerful element of our culture. It almost always becomes personal for everybody involved. I guess it might be hard to understand from my perspective, but it really does feel like that stupid Wal-Mart example. If we know that an organization has corrupted elements in it's very foundation, then why can we as a society not simply turn our backs and walk away? Well, I guess the obvious answer is "belief in God", but as a non-believer the concept is very foreign to me.

It all seems so simple in my head, but yeah, there are really no easy answers.

 

[Diffense]

"Phobia" covers irrational aversion, not just fear, so the term homophobia is apt.

Perhaps. I'll rethink my own discomfort with the word.

 

[Ashes]

I think this spat has reached a suitable point of unresolution, so there's really no point in feeding it further. 50 people are dead because of a zealot with ready access to deadly weapons. That should be focus here.

Agreed.


As a parting word, I will say that Muslim Gaf aren't happy with the ulema, or the wider Muslim world; that much was evident in Ramadan thread, even before this. And I think with the Arab spring, we saw that neither is the wider Muslim world.

Just as in the ramadan thread, when I saw divisions, and wanted unity, I was reminded of this verse by Rumi.

Out beyond the ideas of right and wrong
there is a field
I'll meet you there.

peace out.

 

[umop_3pisdn]

I said Christianity and Islam are almost exclusively responsible for the spread of homophobia. How can you say I lack nuance when you can't even recognize it?

I think this spat has reached a suitable point of unresolution, so there's really no point in feeding it further. 50 people are dead because of a zealot with ready access to deadly weapons. That should be focus here.

Forms of Christianity and Islam, absolutely. I think everyone agrees that perverse ideologies need to be dismantled for the sake of the damage that they cause. I think most people recognize, at least implicitly, how important education or social learning is in shaping people and further compounding our insanity in pretty much any of the worst cases. But a culture war has to be waged on the right hill, we have to be willing to distinguish good religion from bad religion, otherwise we risk alienating a lot of people that don't need to be alienated because their views are already (or could be made to be) harmonious with a sane functioning society.

 

[Monocle]

Agreed.


As a parting word, I will say that Muslim Gaf aren't happy with the ulema, or the wider Muslim world; that much was evident in Ramadan thread, even before this. And I think with the Arab spring, we saw that neither is the wider Muslim world.

Just as in the ramadan thread, when I saw divisions, and wanted unity, I was reminded of this verse by Rumi.

Out beyond the ideas of right and wrong
there is a field
I'll meet you there.

peace out.

That nicely summarizes my attitude toward people I disagree with. Cheers.

Forms of Christianity and Islam, absolutely. I think everyone agrees that perverse ideologies need to be dismantled for the sake of the damage that they cause. I think most people recognize, at least implicitly, how important education or social learning is in shaping people and further compounding our insanity in pretty much any of the worst cases. But a culture war has to be waged on the right hill, we have to be willing to distinguish good religion from bad religion, otherwise we risk alienating a lot of people that don't need to be alienated because their views are already harmonious with a sane functioning society.

Can't say you're wrong. Although I'm not sure I could ever entirely overlook religion's promotion of faith over reason, and received wisdom or revealed truth over evidence based investigation. Science's way of knowing is simply better than religion's, if you're looking for an accurate view of the world.


v All of this.

 

[Yagharek]

Religion is the scapegoat used to cope with the fact that human beings are terrible. We all know that taking away religion tomorrow would just result in new and probably more creative reasons for killing and oppression.

Must we really resort to painting religion as a scapegoat? Religion has well and truly been at the forefront of campaigns against homosexuality for literally thousands of years. Divorcing religious discussion from this event for just a minute, but have people already forgotten all the words that the bible and koran each use to describe homosexuality? Always is it framed as sins against god, as an abomination etc etc.

Religion is a framework under which homophobia thrives in its current form. Hypothetically if you got rid of religion then perhaps it might still exist but we are talking about the current, real world where religion does exist, does spread homophobia, and does directly contibute to deaths by suicide, murder and massacre of LGBTI people.

Instead of saying "oh but without religion people would still hate" perhaps start reframing it in a constructive way and say "how can we transform our religions into instruments of tolerance and acceptance instead of bigotry".

Addendum: if your religious group is one which already accepts homosexuality as normal (not the fake 'love the sinner/hate the sin' bigotry) then good. But there are still many forms of faith such as Baptists and other evangelicals who actively harm LGBTI people through social pressure and these organisations need to be dragged kicking and screaming into a civil future.

 

[spekkeh]

Figures he would be a closet homosexual. 'Regular homophobes' would be disgusted by men kissing, not incredibly worked up. It would also explain why he drove so far, because he was intimately familiar with the club. Seems like he felt he needed to do some major correction for god to get back into heaven. If he turned out to be gay, this act is quite clearly due to religion and not regular homophobia.

 

[Yagharek]

Forms of Christianity and Islam, absolutely. I think everyone agrees that perverse ideologies need to be dismantled for the sake of the damage that they cause. I think most people recognize, at least implicitly, how important education or social learning is in shaping people and further compounding our insanity in pretty much any of the worst cases. But a culture war has to be waged on the right hill, we have to be willing to distinguish good religion from bad religion, otherwise we risk alienating a lot of people that don't need to be alienated because their views are already (or could be made to be) harmonious with a sane functioning society.

Can't say you're wrong. Although I'm not sure I could ever entirely overlook religion's promotion of faith over reason, and received wisdom or revealed truth over evidence based investigation. Science's way of knowing is simply better than religion's, if you're looking for an accurate view of the world.

Just on this: there is already a framework that is recognised as a kind of uniform morality and that is expressed by Christians through the golden rule. It is a morality that is also found across cultures and independent of religion. I am certain there would be an Islamic equivalent, for example.

Perhaps a greater emphasis on the value of common humanity rather than emphasis on differences and out-groups is all it takes, however as simple as that sounds its obviously incredibly difficult to put into practice.

 

[HK-47]

I'm sure most Muslims don't want all gay people to be killed, but trying to say Islam (and religion in general) doesn't have a problem with homosexuality is just not true.

Man that Nigeria stat...

 

[Volimar]

Hope these weren't posted. A few finds on Imgur.

Orlando last night:

Paris stands with Orlando:

The Paris one might be old.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

So essentially, he was gay? Someone on Reddit wrote it really nicely how this could be a self-loathing crime.

Holy shit fuck.

I've heard of this before.... People who aggressively put gay people down have strong tendencies to be closeted gay as well..

I've never seen the self hate take it this far though