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[ISOM]

Also, without religion, hate wouldn't spread so readily. Religion primes people to discriminate by neutralizing their defenses against bad ideas. Religion would have you accept unverified and even debunked claims. Any system that promotes faith must at the same time discourage reason, intellectually honest curiosity, and the willingness to reevaluate beliefs based on evidence.

Yup. Religion is often an excuse for an escape from critical thinking.

 

[Volimar]

Karl Urban tweeted this:

The day people are no longer persecuted for their sexuality, ethnicity,religion or gender ,I'll be proud to be Human

 

[jim-jam bongs]

I'm just going to remind everyone that, regardless of whether the murderer was a radical Muslim or a self-hating gay man or unhinged lunatic lizard-man, the one and only thing which could have prevented this from happening is better regulations around the ownership of firearms. That doesn't mean that the other causes should be denied or ignored, in fact they should be explored in depth. However, we need to not lose sight of the fact that there is already something that could be done which is honestly a lot simpler and more effective at preventing mass-murder than figuring out how we can combat radicalisation or homophobia. We need to prevent both of those things too, desperately, but we can work to make this a better world on multiple fronts.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

If he was a self loathing gay guy and that was the motivation, why pledge allegiance to ISIS?

Because of how they treat gay people? He hooked onto the thing that took him as far away from what he was?

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

If he was a self loathing gay guy and that was the motivation, why pledge allegiance to ISIS?

Because of how they treat gay people? He hooked onto the thing that took him as far away from what he was?

There's a lot of idiotic gullible people in this world that will say shit or do shit because of reasons like not having a brain of your own or being confused by everyone around you trying to control your life. I am not defending or sympathizing with this shooter, and I am actually sad he was given the opportunity to take his own life. However, he pledged allegiance to all Hezbollah, Al-Qaeda, and ISIS combined. These organizations don't even work together or alike, so his pledge doesn't make sense.

If people around him do not accept being gay being okay, and are constantly telling you what to do, it can be very confusing for people. I don't even think the marriage that he had was his own free will, and more of a marriage his parents made him accept because he didn't want to be seen as gay.

Religious pressure can be a BITCH, especially when there's no grey line in any religious teachings. So if someone with no brain is being told that being gay is wrong and will condemn you to hell, and that person is very nicely brainwashed.

Again, all this does not excuse this tragedy and no one will make a martyr out of him for the eternity of our time, but it's something to reflect upon. No mercy for murderers and mass-murderers. No matter how people will remember this tragedy, whether it's religion or sexism or racism or terrorism, only the killer himself was responsible for controlling his actions and seeking help if he needed it. He decided to choose a route that lead to devastated lives, and no god or man will be forgiving someone for that.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

There's a lot of idiotic gullible people in this world that will say shit or do shit because of reasons like not having a brain of your own or being confused by everyone around you trying to control your life. I am not defending or sympathizing with this shooter, and I am actually sad he was given the opportunity to take his own life. However, he pledged allegiance to all Hezbollah, Al-Qaeda, and ISIS combined. These organizations don't even work together or alike, so his pledge doesn't make sense.

If people around him do not accept being gay being okay, and are constantly telling you what to do, it can be very confusing for people. I don't even think the marriage that he had was his own free will, and more of a marriage his parents made him accept because he didn't want to be seen as gay.

Religious pressure can be a BITCH, especially when there's no grey line in any religious teachings. So if someone with no brain is being told that being gay is wrong and will condemn you to hell, and that person is very nicely brainwashed.

This.

Worst part of this was all he had to do was fucking live his life as he wanted to, like he could have just walked out and found a lover and lived his life happy, he was born and raised in the U.S. For gods sake, It's not like he was living under Taliban rule... Instead he killed people whom he secretly wanted to be.... Tragic

 

[Cosmonaut X]

If he was a self loathing gay guy and that was the motivation, why pledge allegiance to ISIS?

Because of how they treat gay people? He hooked onto the thing that took him as far away from what he was?

One last baffling "fuck you" from someone hateful enough to murder dozens? An attempt to hide the (possible) fact he was gay? Some lunatic attempt to "atone" for his (possible) sexuality by murdering people like him and dedicating that act to the most prominent extremist group of the moment?

 

[HK-47]

Funny you say that considering Egypt is actually 10% Christian.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/eg.html

Yeah and they get treated like shit.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

This.

Worst part of this was all he had to do was fucking live his life as he wanted to, like he could have just walked out and found a lover and lived his life happy, he was born and raised in the U.S. For gods sake, It's not like he was living under Taliban rule... Instead he killed people whom he secretly wanted to be.... Tragic

Sadly, his parents being afghan and him being a security officer is a story that falls too close to home. I'm sure he's a legit nobody with no career or goals ahead of him. His parents are probably dumb as fuck and that shit runs in blood. His marriage was a sham, a facade. His parents controlled him forever. I bet he was a momma's boy. I bet he lived in his parent's home too. I bet he snuck out sober and snuck in late drunk. I bet his dad really emotionally and financially threatened him in various incidents of his life, like kicking him out of home.

It's fucked, but it all must've lead to his radicalization/breakdown.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

Sadly, his parents being afghan and him being a security officer is a story that falls too close to home. I'm sure he's a legit nobody with no career or goals ahead of him. His parents are probably dumb as fuck and that shit runs in blood. His marriage was a sham, a facade. His parents controlled him forever. I bet he was a momma's boy. I bet he lived in his parent's home too. I bet he snuck out sober and snuck in late drunk. I bet his dad really emotionally and financially threatened him in various incidents of his life, like kicking him out of home.

It's fucked, but it all must've lead to his radicalization/breakdown.

Those are very fair assumptions.

I'm not the most observant Muslim so doing things around my conservative family definitely required tip toeing. what you described happens a lot...

 

[Ether_Snake]

Religion gives them a reason to carry out attacks that will leave them dead under the propaganda of redemption, that's a fact.

Without that promise there would be far fewer. They think they get eternal life in heaven for it, don't downplay that.

 

[SchrodingerC]

So essentially, he was gay? Someone on Reddit wrote it really nicely how this could be a self-loathing crime.

Goddamn, guy was a freakin' time bomb waiting to happen with that amount of anger and self-loathing issues.

 

[Rentahamster]

So essentially, he was gay? Someone on Reddit wrote it really nicely how this could be a self-loathing crime.

This attack was loosely inspired by ISIS, but it was also a targeted hate crime orchestrated by a closeted homosexual that knew he would never become the man his religion glorifies. He wasn't a fucking terrorist, not even close. He did not kill those people because of an ideology.

These statements together sound like a contradiction. Am I wrong?

 

[Chococat]

This.

Worst part of this was all he had to do was fucking live his life as he wanted to, like he could have just walked out and found a lover and lived his life happy, he was born and raised in the U.S. For gods sake, It's not like he was living under Taliban rule... Instead he killed people whom he secretly wanted to be.... Tragic

Laws may say that NOW in the USA, but not while he was growing up. And America has a pretty health homophobia culture stemming from its' dominate religion: Christianity. Looking at my various gay and transfriends and sorry to say, it is not a cake walk in America either. My friends sister is wagging an all out war against her in the name of God and it is tear their family apart.

 

[Air]

The problem with saying "it's all down to religion" is that you are ignoring other factors which in many cases would be easier to influence. It will always be difficult to persuade someone to change their religion. Socioeconomics, education and an individuals general life experiences have big parts to play in all of this.

You can find people who are athiest but will be highly intolerant of LGBT individuals. Why? That person might be an ignorant, uneducated and untraveled individual who has happened to grow up in a lower socioeconomic area and has never left. Their views come from the belief that "anything different is bad".

At the same time you can have highly religious people who are highly tolerant of LGBT individuals. Why? Whilst these people might have once have had shared beliefs on this topic with the athiest I described above this might have changed through traveling, education and general life experiences. Potentially rubbing shoulders with people in the LGBT community and realising that they are no less a human being than themselves.

We will get closer to a solution to this and many other problems in societies around the world if people took a step back from blaming religion and looked at all of the other factors in play. It's easy to blame religion, even somewhat ignorant in itself. If we are ever going to solve this problem then societies need to start removing barriers, promoting inclusion, providing more support and education where necessary, and most importantly promoting critical thinking.

A lot of societies issues and conflicts will be solved if we successfully manage to remove ignorance, not religion.

Forms of Christianity and Islam, absolutely. I think everyone agrees that perverse ideologies need to be dismantled for the sake of the damage that they cause. I think most people recognize, at least implicitly, how important education or social learning is in shaping people and further compounding our insanity in pretty much any of the worst cases. But a culture war has to be waged on the right hill, we have to be willing to distinguish good religion from bad religion, otherwise we risk alienating a lot of people that don't need to be alienated because their views are already (or could be made to be) harmonious with a sane functioning society.

Great posts you guys. I would say in addition that if you're not careful to decouple good religion from bad, you also incentive polarization, and I find when that happens, people's worse behaviors show up. I get the anger, but being divisive and accusatory is exactly what these people want. We should be smarter than to play into their hand

 

[Curufinwe]

So essentially, he was gay? Someone on Reddit wrote it really nicely how this could be a self-loathing crime.

It's terrible to think that shame over sexuality could lead someone to become a mass murderer.

 

[zoukka]

It's terrible to think that shame over sexuality could lead someone to become a mass murderer.

Shame is a very powerful emotion and can definitely fuck someone up if not processed. Much like anger and hate.

 

[Baki]

This guy was not a practicing Muslim. However he was a wife beater, mentally unstable, struggling with his sexual identity and had easy access to military grade weapons despite being on a watch list.

These are the key causes for this tragedy. Particularly the lax gun laws & his clear mental condition.

Anyone focusing on the very tenuous "religious" angle of this tragedy is definitely looking to satisfy some sort of confirmation bias.

Edit; just wanted to add. There's been 7 shootings this week alone. I feel strongly that focus needs to be put on gun control - so that loonies of all kind can't commit these vile acts.

 

[deadlast]

If he was a self loathing gay guy and that was the motivation, why pledge allegiance to ISIS?

Because of how they treat gay people? He hooked onto the thing that took him as far away from what he was?

Because he wanted to be killed. He hated what he was. That is why he beat his wife, she couldn't make him not gay.
This why acceptance is so vital.

 

[HK-47]

This guy was not a practicing Muslim. However he was a wife beater, mentally unstable, struggling with his sexual identity and had easy access to military grade weapons despite being on a watch list.

These are the key causes for this tragedy. Particularly the lax gun laws & his clear mental condition.

Anyone focusing on the very tenuous "religious" angle of this tragedy is definitely looking to satisfy some sort of confirmation bias.

Edit; just wanted to add. There's been 7 shootings this week alone. I feel strongly that focus needs to be put on gun control - so that loonies of all kind can't commit these vile acts.

His parents seem quite religious and last I read he regularly attended service at his mosque.

 

[deadlast]

His parents seem quite religious and last I read he regularly attended service at his mosque.

He was quiet and sat in the corner at the mosque, according to one interview. His ex-wife said he was not a religious man.

 

[Funky Papa]

This guy was not a practicing Muslim. However he was a wife beater, mentally unstable, struggling with his sexual identity and had easy access to military grade weapons despite being on a watch list.

These are the key causes for this tragedy. Particularly the lax gun laws & his clear mental condition.

Anyone focusing on the very tenuous "religious" angle of this tragedy is definitely looking to satisfy some sort of confirmation bias.

Edit; just wanted to add. There's been 7 shootings this week alone. I feel strongly that focus needs to be put on gun control - so that loonies of all kind can't commit these vile acts.

It's a well documented fact that ISIS's ranks are filled to the brim with barely practicing, hateful, violent thugs looking for a sense of belonging and somebody to kill or abuse. It is also well known that born again religious people are easily radicalised and prone to do awful stuff. The terrorists responsible for the Madrid bombings and the November 2015 Paris attacks are proof of this.

Unless evidence of the contrary arises, the religious angle is fully valid.

 

[aeolist]

people who weren't raised in strictly religious homes can't understand the kind of guilt and shame you can be subjected to if you don't fit the mold perfectly. hearing that this guy was probably closeted instantly makes me understand him better, i was brought up in a fundie christian household and even though i never tried particularly hard to be a good christian and definitely don't give a fuck about it now it still messes me up sometimes.

 

[ElFly]

This guy was not a practicing Muslim. However he was a wife beater, mentally unstable, struggling with his sexual identity and had easy access to military grade weapons despite being on a watch list.

These are the key causes for this tragedy. Particularly the lax gun laws & his clear mental condition.

Anyone focusing on the very tenuous "religious" angle of this tragedy is definitely looking to satisfy some sort of confirmation bias.

Edit; just wanted to add. There's been 7 shootings this week alone. I feel strongly that focus needs to be put on gun control - so that loonies of all kind can't commit these vile acts.

His raising was probably part of it. And it must have had some religious component.

His father just said

He (Omar Mateen's father) then adds: "God will punish those involved in homosexuality," saying it's, "not an issue that humans should deal with."

They do not need to be super devout religious people to have their religion taint their ideas about homosexuality. Let's not pretend that Islam, in general, is exactly progressive about homosexuality.

Religion played a part.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

His parents seem quite religious and last I read he regularly attended service at his mosque.

He was quiet and sat in the corner at the mosque, according to one interview. His ex-wife said he was not a religious man.

Both go hand to hand. His parents were religious and took him to mosques but he never cared for it, and he never was.

 

[MIMIC]

People shouldn't be dismissing the religious angle just because we've uncovered new info. This is a HIGHLY complex case.

 

[ElFly]

"Definitely"? You yourself said he was on a watchlist. That means he had a clear pattern of extremist associations. Of course religion plays a role here. Just not in the way some are implying.



People have used the example of homophobic atheists to counter this, but I think that's cultural. And in the US at least, culture has been heavily shaped by Christianity.

Is there anything to counter to bring up homophobic atheists?

Just because homophobic atheists exist does not suddenly make homosexuality legal in several predominantly muslim countries.

 

[dave is ok]

Every time something like this happens, people look for any excuse to call it whatever they want it to be. It's disgusting.

NPR had several stories on this morning about how it was a hate crime and not terrorism and how the term 'radical islam' is bad but 'radical islamism' is not and whatnot.

More stories are about the framing of the narrative at this point than about the event itself.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

Welp:

 

[Ether_Snake]

People asking why he pledged allegiance to IS; probably a form of redemption. He probably got radicalized, and he saw this as a way to clean himself. Same reason so many IS fighters are former drug users or dealers.

 

[aeolist]

People asking why he pledged allegiance to IS; probably a form of redemption. He probably got radicalized, and he saw this as a way to clean himself. Same reason so many IS fighters are former drug users or dealers.

yeah that seems pretty clear. he was trying to prove that he could be whatever fucked up ideal of a good jihadist he had in his head.

 

[Jedi2016]

Motherfucker grew up in my home town...

And yes, religion absolutely has something to do with it, even with the idea that he was gay. Moreso, in fact, because he grew up in an environment with a father who would have constantly talked about how gays are the devil. Cultured self-loathing created by your own upbringing... how fucked up is that?

 

[rob305]

I'm supposed to go to a concert at a mid sized venue in Miami tomorrow, kinda have mixed feelings about this :/

 

[j_k_redtail]

People asking why he pledged allegiance to IS; probably a form of redemption. He probably got radicalized, and he saw this as a way to clean himself. Same reason so many IS fighters are former drug users or dealers.

This is my operating hypothesis at this point. He pledged allegiance to two terror groups that are at war with each other. Sounds like his ideology wasn't very clear - he was compensating for something.

 

[DOWN]

Guys we have no evidence he did more than just awkwardly talk to people online and in those apps, correct? He also contacted a club owner online and was often seen alone at the bar. We have no credible sources saying he actually partook in anything gay himself, no? As of right now it seems he was staking things out and we don't know more. His messages were often reportedly asking about popularity of clubs and where to go out. It's absolutely possible he was gay but I don't see that evidence unless I've missed a post.

 

[ElFly]

Guys we have no evidence he did more than just awkwardly talk to people online and in those apps, correct? He also contacted a club owner online and was often seen alone at the bar. We have no credible sources saying he actually partook in anything gay himself, no? As of right now it seems he was staking things out and we don't know more. His messages were often reportedly asking about popularity of clubs and where to go out. It's absolutely possible he was gay but I don't see that evidence unless I've missed a post.

At least one guy said Omar came out as gay to him.

 

[Ahasverus]

Welp:

See. Thanks, religion/society.

 

[SliceSabre]

Welp:

This is so crazy.

So like is the thing now that he was probably way inside the closet? Like I don't understand why this would be the reaction. Self-hate?

 

[DOWN]

At least one guy said Omar came out as gay to him.

Source? And wouldn't he of course be saying he's gay on those apps or else he wouldn't get any info at all?

 

[Diffense]

There is no new info that fundamentally changes the dynamics of this attack. There's no fundamental difference between being gay and homophobic and being straight and homophobic though the element of self-hatred makes the former seem particuarly tragic. The cultural and religious forces that nurture such attitudes are the same in both cases. It doesn't change the fact that it was probably too easy for the killer to obtain the weapons he desired even though he was suspected of ties to terrorists.

Sometimes homophobia results in irony that is not quite as deadly as the Pulse shooting. I'm reminded of the husband of the anti-gay former politician Michelle Bachmann who seemed more gay than many openly gay people while running a "reparative therapy" business and claiming that the "the barbarians can be educated". The unjustifiable refusal to accept a small and natural component of the human sexual spectrum results in distorted people and distorted marriages.

 

[cwmartin]

I'm supposed to go to a concert at a mid sized venue in Miami tomorrow, kinda have mixed feelings about this :/

Please don't live your life in fear. That's how terrorists push their agenda and regress the world.

 

[RPGCrazied]

Welp:

In another thread I said, he probably isn't really gay, just pretending. Wanted to meet gay people and kill them. And probably visited the club several times to get a lay of the land for when he acts.

I don't buy he is gay.

 

[ElFly]

Source? And wouldn't he of course be saying he's gay on those apps or else he wouldn't get any info at all?

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-was-gay-former-classma/nrfwW/

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...-pulse-club-regular-patrons-article-1.2672445

 

[aeolist]

Source? And wouldn't he of course be saying he's gay on those apps or else he wouldn't get any info at all?

are you saying the fact that he was hitting on men in grindr doesn't provide a strong indication that he was gay?

 

[bonesmccoy]

Religion is the scapegoat used to cope with the fact that human beings are terrible. We all know that taking away religion tomorrow would just result in new and probably more creative reasons for killing and oppression.

You mean, we ought to know.

The 20th Century had a couple murderous (to a degree I don't think we can still yet appreciate) ideologies that were inimical toward religion.

 

[the-pi-guy]

From the NYdaily above.

She said Mateen — who she married in 2009 but left months later, claiming he beat her — confessed to her that he liked to go nightclubbing.
...
Speaking to WFTV9 in Orlando, the classmate, who asked not to be named, said he was gay in 2006 but had not yet come out about his sexuality.

Mateen had asked him out, the classmate said.

“We went to a few gay bars with him, and I was not out at the time, so I declined his offer,” the former classmate said.
....
“I’ve seen him a couple of times at Pulse, a couple of other people that I’ve spoken with, including an-ex security guard, have actually witnessed this guy at Pulse many times before,” said Callen, who performs as Kristina McLauglin.

“One friend was a security guard there two years ago and she remembers him,” Callen told the Daily News.

If he was just scoping it out, that seems like a ridiculously long time to just be scoping it out.

 

[Kreed]

Every time something like this happens, people look for any excuse to call it whatever they want it to be. It's disgusting.

NPR had several stories on this morning about how it was a hate crime and not terrorism and how the term 'radical islam' is bad but 'radical islamism' is not and whatnot.

More stories are about the framing of the narrative at this point than about the event itself.

If I was a muslim in the US and labeling this event a hate crime and not terrorism meant a few less people being scared of Muslims in the US and taking actions like this against me, I'd spend a minute or two arguing over the labeling too if I could.

 

[pigeon]

In another thread I said, he probably isn't really gay, just pretending. Wanted to meet gay people and kill them. And probably visited the club several times to get a lay of the land for when he acts.

I don't buy he is gay.

I feel like you are strongly invested in believing he's not gay because that's the narrative we started out with.

He didn't just visit the club "several times," he'd been going there for three years.

If he wanted to meet gay people on Grindr and kill them where are the previous murders? You're transforming him from a one-off mass murder into a carefully planned serial killer. Totally different behavior patterns.

In case people don't understand Grindr, it's not an app for meeting and having a couple of drinks. It's a gay hookup app. People use it to have immediate gay sex.

The preponderance of the evidence is not unclear, the guy was gay.

 

[ElFly]

Eliminating religion is certainly not the solution.

But that's not the same as saying that religion should go unchecked whatsoever.

 

[Valhelm]

In another thread I said, he probably isn't really gay, just pretending. Wanted to meet gay people and kill them. And probably visited the club several times to get a lay of the land for when he acts.

I don't buy he is gay.

Dude, his friend from ten years ago said Omar had come out to him as gay.