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[Dee Dah Dave]

Create powerful hardware just to render Halo 5 with all it's graphical problems in 4K, and for the ~15% or so people that actually own a capable TV?

OR

Stick to 1080p and make some pretty significant graphical and framerate improvements across the board. Providing some 'wow' moments which this round of consoles has severely lacked.

Those are your two options pretty much, because the hardware, as nice as it is, isn't capable of much more if all the budget is used up on native 4K res. No matter what Phil Spencer says.

The initiative as it stands now doesn't make much sense. Though I guess this is just early and simple PR for a product that's still far away. I still expect the Scorpio to be pushed as the primary hardware as soon as adoption rates take off, and the XB1 will start to be phased out.

Exclusive games seem a certainty to me at some point, and I don't just mean VR ones.

"It's 2018 and we are still all in on the XB1, but we have the Scorpio if you want a bit extra" - Nah. Don't believe it, especially not from a company like Microsoft.

 

[metareferential]

These are also with maxed out PC settings, not what you see on consoles even at 1080p

DF's take on this is pretty spot-on: they could run the game at 85% 4k gpu-upscaled and make it look astonishing.

 

[Pathfinder]

There seems to be confusion. The GPU itself is 6tflops. That was confirmed by Microsoft, we asked afterwards. And I personally don't want all, or even the majority of games targeting 4K. I think with this kind of power, 1080p is the sweet spot to do significantly more with the game visually. I don't want too much of the power dedicated to running at 4K.

Agreed. And not just because I'm not ready to buy a 4K HDTV yet.

 

[Proelite]

Devs will make their engine perform well at 2160 x 1200 at 90 fps, and whatever res for TV at 60fps.

VR mode is the uncompromosing one. You can always scale up on the 4k display. At the distances that people sit i dont think they'll notice an upscale on the TV.

However upscale or frame drops will be far more noticeable in VR mode.

 

[etta]

How much more would a Zen CPU and the 320GB/s GDDR5X(?) add to total TF measure? 6.1-6.2 total? More?

Create powerful hardware just to render Halo 5 with all it's graphical problems in 4K, and for the ~15% or so people that actually own a capable TV?

OR

Stick to 1080p and make some pretty significant graphical and framerate improvements across the board. Providing some 'wow' moments which this round of consoles has severely lacked.

Well said. I really really hope third party developers will still target 1080p for a few more years. When 4K TVs start to take over the market then sure, switch to that. But it makes no sense to target that out of the gate.

 

[PHOENIXZERO]

XB Scorpion's GPU is basically in the same position as the PS4's was, it's the same level part just three/four years later.

So, close to Titan X?

wow

Not really no. AMD FLOPS and NVIDIA FLOPS aren't the same, a Titan X is still much faster.

Holy fuck.

6 Tflops... that's double the power of my GTX 770.

Not quite, it's a sizable increase but it's more in line with the 980 on the NVIDIA side.

6TF sounds awesome now, but will it be 'very powerful' come holiday 2017?

It's mainstream level mid-range this year.

I hope so!

Only if games stand still. Which they're not doing. At all.

More powerful consoles are making it even less likely. 4K60 isn't happening any time soon.

A 1080Ti is probably going to be around double the Scorpion's GPU performance. If the console can actually manage to do 4K at ~30 a 1080Ti will almost certainly run them at 60FPS at the same settings.

R9 480 is rumoured to be around 5.5 TFLOPS and IIRC they announced it would be around $200

The GTX 1080 is 9 TFLOPS so if the relative price/performance ratios stay the same as the 980 vs 960 -- the 1060 should land at about 5.5 TFLOPS and be around $218

So in a year's time that's probably going to be around a $200 performance graphics wise vs PC

The PS4 OTOH launched with about $135 of performance graphics wise being kind of in between just shy of the $139 R7 260X which launched a few weeks after.

So I guess they've moved up from lower mid-level graphics to upper mid level graphics PC wise.

A 5.5TF NVIDIA GPU would be a much better performer than a 5.5TF AMD GPU and that's way too high for the 1060 since it would put it too close to 1070 range. The 1060 will still be between 970 and 980 performance (probably between 3.5-4.5 NVIDIA TFs) just like the 480 will likely be.

 

[shandy706]

Here are some average 4k framerate numbers from the GTX 1080, a 9TFLOP card:

Crysis 3: 39,8
Tomb Raider: 43,2
Witcher 3: 44,1
Metro Last Light: 52,7
Hitman: 46

Source

But hey, set yourself up for a disappointment.

As a PC gamer (are you?) you should know better. Using "ultra" level PC settings doesn't directly cross over to console comparisons. They'd tweak things to match system capability (if aiming for 4k).

30 fps should be easy for well optimized games. I can run TW3, which is gorgeous, at 4k/30 with very high settings on my current GPU. Tweak a few things down, and you get a 60fps 4k game that still looks far better than its console counterparts.

It's a matter of what level of Graphics "settings" you want at 4k.

It would be neat if we got to choose from a couple presets on the new consoles. Something like a Ultra @1080p or med/high 4k toggle in the game's settings menu.

Heck, toss a 1440p high/very high in there. Heh

Edit** For example look at Battlefield 4. That's a beautiful game on PC. They're running it at 51fps on a similar GPU (TF wise) @4k on "ultra/max" settings. A few tweaks and you're at 60 real quick .

 

[Lucifon]

Here's some benchmarks. Remember, the 480 is essentially what Scorpio is using.

Now, with this in mind, refer to the performace that the 1080 gets at 4K:

Games will look phenomenal on this thing, but not at 4K.

All signs point to it being an unreleased AMD card not the 480. Digital Foundry even say this.

 

[Tatsumi Oga]

Create powerful hardware just to render Halo 5 with all it's graphical problems in 4K, and for the ~15% or so people that actually own a capable TV?

OR

Stick to 1080p and make some pretty significant graphical and framerate improvements across the board. Providing some 'wow' moments which this round of consoles has severely lacked.

Those are your two options pretty much, because the hardware, as nice as it is, isn't capable of much more if all the budget is used up on native 4K res. No matter what Phil Spencer says.

The initiative as it stands now doesn't make much sense. Though I guess this is just early and simple PR for a product that's still far away. I still expect the Scorpio to be pushed as the primary hardware as soon as adoption rates take off, and the XB1 will start to be phased out.

Exclusive games seem a certainty to me at some point, and I don't just mean VR ones.

"It's 2018 and we are still all in on the XB1, but we have the Scorpio if you want a bit extra" - Nah. Don't believe it, especially not from a company like Microsoft.

Spencer DID say it is up to the developers though. 4k is not going to be forced on them it seems. Which is good.

 

[acm2000]

All this talk of vr, yet no mention on a headset?

 

[e-gamer]

All this talk of vr, yet no mention on a headset?

The rumor is that Scorpio will be compatible with Oculus. Perhaps Vive.

 

[SPEA]

All this talk of vr, yet no mention on a headset?

Phil mentions in the Wired story that Microsoft is currently not developing one themselves.

 

[Journey]

All signs point to it being an unreleased AMD card not the 480. Digital Foundry even say this.

And makes sense, as seen in every release, consoles have a toned down version of the latest architecture, not the previous year one. Will likely be whatever is the latest revision for late 2017.

 

[Hawk269]

I'm sure there won't be a mandate.

There isn't. In an interview that Major Nelson had with Phil he said that it would up to the devs to use the 6tf performance in whatever way they wanted. Some will opt for 4k/30fps, others may go 1080p/60fps with incredible IQ, AI, draw distance etc.

 

[Negotiator]

VS

Is the Scorpio APU die size smaller than the XB1 equivalent or is it just me?

I understand the die shrink (28nm -> 14nm FinFET), but it's supposed to have more GPU CUs/ALUs and a CPU uArch (Zen) that requires more transistors compared to Jaguar. I assume eSRAM is gone for good.

ps: I wonder if Sony is going to order a bigger APU to hit a 8TF target... to be precise, they need 8.5TF to have the same amount of (semi-)generational leap (4.58x).

 

[oldergamer]

VS

Is the Scorpio APU die size smaller than the XB1 equivalent or is it just me?

I understand the die shrink (28nm -> 14nm FinFET), but it's supposed to have more GPU CUs/ALUs and a CPU uArch (Zen) that requires more transistors compared to Jaguar. I assume eSRAM is gone for good.

ps: I wonder if Sony is going to order a bigger APU to hit a 8TF target... to be precise, they need 8.5TF to have the same amount of (semi-)generational leap (4.58x).

Not gonna happen.

 

[solis74]

That does not look like double to me:

thanks for the visual.

 

[VlaudTheImpaler]

These are also with maxed out PC settings, not what you see on consoles even at 1080p

DF's take on this is pretty spot-on: they could run the game at 85% 4k gpu-upscaled and make it look astonishing.

Exactly. The PC master race BS is strong here with people just popping in to take shots and post benchmarks without thinking. Hardcore PC peeps, who are already niche (I am one of them as a soon to be 1080 owner) are used to pushing the settings to the limits and using that as the bar for what resolution a "piece of hardware" can handle but they know full well they could reach higher resolutions at stable framerates if they turned some settings down. And that's on hardware that is running software that isn't even tailored specifically for it as it will be for the scorpio. Not to mention that most games out today weren't even made with 4k as a fundamental goal since 4k displays are still pretty niche ATM.

We don't know a lot of things yet. We don't know the scaling solution that MS has developed. We don't know the dev tools that have been created yet and how efficient they are. We haven't even seen footage that can be analyzed at all yet. So to come in here and say that it definitely won't push 4k gaming is just as ignorant as you think MS is being when they say it will. Besides there is no mandate that games have to push 4k. Just a statement that it can if devs want to, and with 6tf it certainly could.

The attitude is embarrassing because ya'll know the pc already is and will always remain the king of "omg gwafics!" I don't know why you feel the need to crap all over the scorpio for anything other than fanboy agenda.

 

[Proelite]

VS

Is the Scorpio APU die size smaller than the XB1 equivalent or is it just me?

I understand the die shrink (28nm -> 14nm FinFET), but it's supposed to have more GPU CUs/ALUs and a CPU uArch (Zen) that requires more transistors compared to Jaguar. I assume eSRAM is gone for good.

ps: I wonder if Sony is going to order a bigger APU to hit a 8TF target... to be precise, they need 8.5TF to have the same amount of (semi-)generational leap (4.58x).

363mm2 is huge for 14nm/16nm chips. Even the 1080 is quite smaller than that. 363mm is probably Vega size.

As for 8TF, Sony will have to can all Neo designs and place an order for Navi SOC with HBM2 or GDDR5x, and whole new motherboard for a 2018 release. So essentially they wasted tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars designing the Neo.

 

[El_Chino]

VS

Is the Scorpio APU die size smaller than the XB1 equivalent or is it just me?

I understand the die shrink (28nm -> 14nm FinFET), but it's supposed to have more GPU CUs/ALUs and a CPU uArch (Zen) that requires more transistors compared to Jaguar. I assume eSRAM is gone for good.

ps: I wonder if Sony is going to order a bigger APU to hit a 8TF target... to be precise, they need 8.5TF to have the same amount of (semi-)generational leap (4.58x).

That's probably a placeholder.

 

[MilkyJoe]

363mm2 is huge for 14nm/16nm chips. Even the 1080 is quite smaller than that. 363mm is probably Vega size.

As for 8TF, Sony will have to can all Neo designs and place an order for Navi SOC with HBM2 or GDDR5x, and whole new motherboard for a 2018 release. So essentially they wasted tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars designing the Neo.

 

[iceatcs]

8TF+ likely will be on PS5, not Neo, too far away.

Neo seems likely coming sooner than Scorpio as well devkit is out there, so it won't be more than 6TF unless last min plan change.

 

[JonathanPower]

8 Cores
6 TFlops
320GB/s memory bandwidth
4K/VR Gaming
BC and forward compatible
2017

8 core what? Jaguar again, or Zen? That's the question. I assume Jaguar.

 

[MilkyJoe]

8TF+ likely will be on PS5, not Neo, too far away.

Neo seems likely coming sooner than Scorpio as well devkit is out there, so it won't be more than 6TF unless last min plan change.

Neo 6 TF?

 

[Josh5890]

Here's some benchmarks. Remember, the 480 is essentially what Scorpio is using.

Now, with this in mind, refer to the performace that the 1080 gets at 4K:

Games will look phenomenal on this thing, but not at 4K.

So if we go by this chart my PC would be slightly more powerful once I get the 1070?

Spoiler

Can't wait for the next 16+ months of console speculation here on Gaf

 

[dgrdsv]

So if we go by this chart my PC would be slightly more powerful once I get the 1070?

Spoiler

Can't wait for the next 16+ months of console speculation here on Gaf

6TF is what 390X have on that chart. 1070 is quite a bit more powerful than that, definitely not slightly.

 

[Proelite]

If I was Kaz, i would can Neo right now.

Make $299 PS4 with UHD and HDR.
Announce PS5 at E3 2017 for Fall 2018. >10TF. Bury Scorpio.

 

[Ape]

If I was Kaz, i would can Neo right now.

Make $299 PS4 with UHD and HDR.
Announce PS5 at E3 2017 for Fall 2018. >10TF.

really concerning that MS is releasing an HDR blu ray player before Sony.

With the slim and the Scorpio, Sony is really getting out maneuvered in the hardware space.

 

[blastprocessor]

just like the 480 will likely be.

The 480 is showing above a 980 or near as matching it.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

8 core what? Jaguar again, or Zen? That's the question. I assume Jaguar.

At E3 and participated in Xbox fanfest and got to ask questions directly. It seems almost assured that it will be Zen, and I've spoken to some pretty high up individuals.

 

[ironcreed]

There seems to be confusion. The GPU itself is 6tflops. That was confirmed by Microsoft, we asked afterwards. And I personally don't want all, or even the majority of games targeting 4K. I think with this kind of power, 1080p is the sweet spot to do significantly more with the game visually. I don't want too much of the power dedicated to running at 4K.

Yeah, I have no plans to buy a 4k TV anytime soon. Not even in 2018 when I plan to pick this up. At any rate, they are obviously going balls to the wall with this thing and the games will look and run incredible.

 

[Saintruski]

Why do you think optimization is magic?

Apparently i need to clarify that that comment was sarcastic in nature in that people think optimization is magical...

In fact a lot of people seem think that optimization is in fact doubling performance of hardware (as commentators in this thread are saying) somehow when hardware has physical limitations. That is not how optimization works, if it did, it would be some sort of magic.

 

[Bsigg12]

8 core what? Jaguar again, or Zen? That's the question. I assume Jaguar.

Jaguar would make all the changes to the GPU useless as they would be bottlenecked. Also, AMD has already said they have a Zen based APU in production for 2017.

 

[Long Division]

really concerning that MS is releasing an HDR blu ray player before Sony.

With the slim and the Scorpio, Sony is really getting out maneuvered in the hardware space.

Why would that concern you?

 

[El Sloth]

Are we making bets on how much this going to cost yet? Gonna get crazy and say $800+, because why not. Friend believes solidly in $999.99.

 

[Noobcraft]

Are we making bets on how much this going to cost yet? Gonna get crazy and say $800+, because why not. Friend believes solidly in $999.99.

$400. A 5.5TF card will likely cost under $200 by the time Scorpio comes out.

 

[Bsigg12]

Are we making bets on how much this going to cost yet? Gonna get crazy and say $800+, because why not. Friend believes solidly in $999.99.

$399. October 2017.

If it was coming out this year I could absolutely see $599+ but it's over a year away.

 

[D4Danger]

Are we making bets on how much this going to cost yet? Gonna get crazy and say $800+, because why not. Friend believes solidly in $999.99.

better pc parts won't even cost that much. It'll be $499.

 

[wachie]

$400. A 5.5TF card will likely cost under $200 by the time Scorpio comes out.

Don't have to wait that long, just a few weeks now.

 

[Noobcraft]

Don't have to wait that long, just a few weeks now.

Yeah.

 

[Klocker]

better pc parts won't even cost that much. It'll be $499.

I go with this. $449. At least

 

[etta]

$400. A 5.5TF card will likely cost under $200 by the time Scorpio comes out.

Don't have to wait that long, just a few weeks now.

Not even $200, they don't need the PCB, the cooling solution, all the ports, and they're buying in bulk making the whole thing even cheaper.

 

[teh_pwn]

Generally seems like good specs. Basically the GPU by raw flops is around Nvidia GTX 980 (or slightly less if AMD), which is pretty substantial for a console. I may hop back and forth between PS and Xbox between iterations.

 

[Chitown B]

$400. A 5.5TF card will likely cost under $200 by the time Scorpio comes out.

At least $500. a 2TB x1 S is $400 now. I doubt the Scorpio will be less than 2TB. Plus you have to factor in the rest of the system, not just the graphics card.

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

Is it 6TF GPU + CPU or 6TF overall?

I'm NO friend of Teraflop wars but people seem to be report different statements.

They said GPU was 6TF so who knows. If they are ways for them to get more power while keeping price where they want it they will and with how much time they have they certainly can.

Wouldn't surprise me the slightest if this thing ends up over 6TF. They are mentioning this in advance for reasons.

Also, I don't wanna sound like a dick or anything but what is up with all the Sony should do comments? Are people that concerned?...I'm genuinely asking.

 

[Saintruski]

somehow double posted...much apologies

 

[Saintruski]

They said GPU was 6TF so who knows. If they are ways for them to get more power while keeping price where they want it they will and with how much time they have they certainly can.

Wouldn't surprise me the slightest if this thing ends up over 6TF. They are mentioning this in advance for reasons.

Also, I don't wanna sound like a dick or anything but what is up with all the Sony should do comments? Are people that concerned...I'm genuinely asking.

Well if its an APU, AMD has a weird way of adding up their cores... they like to just say for instance its "12 total compute cores* (4 CPU + 8 GPU)"....

so for marketing purposes might as well go with the flow? Technically the CPU and GPU are both used to produced what you see on display, CPU more so for AI, how many of what you see, draw distance and so fourth, so why not consider the APU the GPU and add up the floating point?

 

[AfroDust]

The rumor is that Scorpio will be compatible with Oculus. Perhaps Vive.

.

 

[Kickz]

Just finished watching this conference and I was thoroughly impressed. Especially ending with this doozy. Good on Microsoft, this was by far my most enjoyable conference watch.

Now I need a Blue/gold controller.

 

[rokkerkory]

If I was Kaz, i would can Neo right now.

Make $299 PS4 with UHD and HDR.
Announce PS5 at E3 2017 for Fall 2018. >10TF. Bury Scorpio.

Congrats have already been inked neo isn't getting canned