Like when a idiot commits a shooting in the name lf islan and suddenly every muslim is at fault?
Brexit |OT| UK Referendum on EU Membership - 23 June 2016
- Thread starter QuicheFontaine
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They aren't. Only idiots would do so. Stop judging people as all the same.
I dont. I am not stupid. But lets not act like a lot of people think that way after a terror act.
You understood me wrong, but I meant that this is most likely going to be remembered as the act of a single maniac and not as a act of terror (its a political motivated murder as it seems, so its terror).
Would it have been a muslim or a brown person, it would be immediatly labeled as this and the last few times there was a incident there were immeadiatly attacks against innocent persons who just labeled the same religion.
Maybe I shouldnt have posted in the first place. Having a hard time to exactly say what I meant but I hope you understand what I was going at.
Economist just pushed a pretty strong story/manifesto to all the subscribers (which is also available to non-subscribers through the link), supporting the Remain side. I guess they are really worried about the referendum now.
https://economist.turtl.co/story/575ec948e0de0a61670b0058
The dynamic chart they made about Brexit is fairly interesting as well; I always thought it is the younger population who would support Leave more, but the data shows exactly the opposite.
http://www.economist.com/Brexit
David Cameron must be deeply regretting his decisions now. The whole drama started out as a trick to bargain for better terms with EU and to settle the internal political disputes once and for all, but it went out of control soon after. I do fear that the Remain side would prevail on June 23rd; otherwise we might see many serious complications in the coming decades.
Don't play with fire. I guess they never learn.
https://economist.turtl.co/story/575ec948e0de0a61670b0058
The dynamic chart they made about Brexit is fairly interesting as well; I always thought it is the younger population who would support Leave more, but the data shows exactly the opposite.
http://www.economist.com/Brexit
David Cameron must be deeply regretting his decisions now. The whole drama started out as a trick to bargain for better terms with EU and to settle the internal political disputes once and for all, but it went out of control soon after. I do fear that the Remain side would prevail on June 23rd; otherwise we might see many serious complications in the coming decades.
Don't play with fire. I guess they never learn.
Wasn't labeling you a idiot. I was saying the people that blame others for one persons actions are idiots.
You mean "hope", right? I hope you mean "hope".
Otherwise, 100% agreed. This referendum is a total shithouse, and Cameron will go down in history, rightfully IMO, as one of the worst PMs ever regardless of the result.
dapperbandit
Banned
I guess its too much to hope for that people could wait for the facts.
The rumors were that he'd be gone either way. He's gone at the end of this term regardless and honestly, even last GE, he campaigned like someone who didn't want the job.
Him and Osbourne have allready said they intend to stay on regardless of the outcome, now a lot of back benchers have said they are ready to push for a vote of no confidence, but talk is cheap, and with him allready resigning anyway (he said he wont run again for the GE) at most he has 3 years left, so the MP's may think they might as well wait
Yeah I knew he was not going to be running in the next GE, but 3 years is fairly long time. If anything it will be interesting to see what happens to the party whatever the outcome.
I can't imagine it will be 'move on and forget'.
Disgraceful post.
Pretty much. I was pleasantly surprised to see the mainstream reporting and public figures not rushing to politicise this. I should've figured people here wouldn't be above it though.
The campaigns won't, that would be stooping to Trump levels and for all their faults, our Remain/Leave campaigners aren't anywhere near that level! But the Daily Mail will be all over it.
If you suspend this referendum all that does is show lunatics how to get their way whenever an election is coming up, it sets a dangerous precedent.
Not to mention the logistics involved in rearranging the dates and campaigning all over again, the UK is in turmoil right now, markets are all over the place and it's not like things would go back to normal while you have it suspended, indecision creates confusion and fear, we need a decision and the longer this is allowed to fester the worse it could potentially be
One insane person shouldn't dictate when the whole country has a referendum.
ClosingADoor
Member
That would set a terrible example. Next time there is a referendum or election, someone will commit murder to stop it. Not a good idea.
PJV3
Member
The ship of Bile has almost reached port, I don't fancy turning it around to set sail again in a year or whatever.
Exterminieren
Banned
I feel like I should apologise for some of the comments I made earlier, or at least moderate them. These events have shaken me to my very core, and I went much too far in my initial reactions.
I do think this has been a despicably-fought referendum on both sides of the divide, and the overall tenor of the campaigns serves only to embolden fascism and the far-right in this country. Farage's poster was the most recent and overt example of this kind of politics, but it has been an ever-present over the past few months, and it would be of absolutely no surprise to me if the initial reports were corroborated. I thoroughly accept that my knee jerked too quickly on this one, and my point was far too abrasive. I'd point towards Alex Massie's piece in the Spectator for a more considered view of what today's events represent.
With all that being said...
If the murderer did indeed shout Britain First, then he was the one who politicised it, not anyone commenting.
Let's ignore the experts and instead let the general public decide. I still think you should have to pass an exam to be allowed to vote
That's a dangerous president to set.
While the gesture is an honourable one, I don't think knee jerk reactions are helpful.
All we can hope is that the next week goes quickly with the minimum of bile and we can get the whole sordid affair done and dusted and get back to some sort of semblance of a 'normal' life
Look, I get the general "We don't negotiate with terrorists / If we *blank* then the terrorists win" angle.
But it's bollocks. We make changes and sacrifices based on singularly horrific events all the time. 9/11, Dunblane, that shoe-bomber dude, etc.
The referendum isn't some crucial event that has to happen, it's a bit of political grandstanding that had already gone horribly wrong before today's events and there is absolutely no need for it to continue if the sensible decision is for it to be postponed.
But it's bollocks. We make changes and sacrifices based on singularly horrific events all the time. 9/11, Dunblane, that shoe-bomber dude, etc.
The referendum isn't some crucial event that has to happen, it's a bit of political grandstanding that had already gone horribly wrong before today's events and there is absolutely no need for it to continue if the sensible decision is for it to be postponed.
Fair play. On your last point, if it was politically driven, sure, but let's wait until we know a little more about his motives.
I get where you are coming from, and as I said, it is an honourable gesture, I just don't agree it's the correct course of action to take personally.
I agree to a certain extent, but this would set a precedent in terms of calling off elections/referendums. For example, if there was another Scottish Indy referendum and a poll was not going a certain way, God forbid, there will be someone out there willing to 'exploit' this postponement and commit an horrific act to enforce it.
It's a catch 22, the best course of action is not to use this disgraceful act as political points for either end, its on the individual that committed the crime.
If this guy has been motivated by the referendum, I don't see how you can't postpone it under the threat of terrorist attacks.
https://twitter.com/RichieMcCormack/status/743494371094446080
Lock this cunt up for starters
https://twitter.com/RichieMcCormack/status/743494371094446080
Lock this cunt up for starters
blazinglord
Member
I think everyone should suspend all EU campaigning until Tuesday. We could all do with a break from the campaign and it would be right to reflect on this horrific tragedy.
I am still in shock that an elected representative in this country was murdered by a constituent. This is the sort of thing you hear about happening in Mexico, not Yorkshire. Truly awful.
I am still in shock that an elected representative in this country was murdered by a constituent. This is the sort of thing you hear about happening in Mexico, not Yorkshire. Truly awful.
Essentially the reason I've refrained from exercising my right to vote for 25 years is that I don't feel informed enough. I made more of an effort last time out, but am still hugely naive of what each party/candidate actually stands for.Let's ignore the experts and instead let the general public decide. I still think you should have to pass an exam to be allowed to vote
Fortunately this referendum doesn't require me to understand that much and I'll be there next Thursday doing my bit for remain. Hopefully there are millions more like me who won't register on polls but will vote that way next week.
It is probably good practice to hold judgement on motive for now.
dapperbandit
Banned
I think that's the key argument here and I agree with it.
Give the public some time to reflect without campaign influence but keep the date.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...illing-described-as-quiet-polite-and-reserved
The whole situation is so sad. The primary suspect is just an individual who has mental health issues. Doesn't seem to be politically motivated at all.
it's horrible for everyone involved. my heart goes out to all of them.
The whole situation is so sad. The primary suspect is just an individual who has mental health issues. Doesn't seem to be politically motivated at all.
it's horrible for everyone involved. my heart goes out to all of them.
PJV3
Member
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...illing-described-as-quiet-polite-and-reserved
The whole situation is so sad. The primary suspect is just an individual who has mental health issues. Doesn't seem to be politically motivated at all.
Except for the reports linking him to far right groups in south Africa and the states. The truth either way is hopefully going to come out soon and put an end to the speculation.
Miles Quaritch
Member
So family members are now reliable and trustworthy sources of information?
Okay then...
Okay then...
Mr Nash
square pies = communism
At this point, I'm hoping the police can give us some solid info on the guy. There's so much back and forth on social media and news outlets trying to learn what they can that it's a huge shit storm at the moment. That being said, who knows when we'll get some concrete data on him and a better understanding on whether this is a mental illness thing or politcally motivated.
Psychotext
Member
Such a nice guy, so nice in fact that he happened to be carrying a gun and knife and proceeded to shoot a woman in the face and kick her whilst she was on the floor bleeding to death.
Um, source for these, please? Disgusting (and further proof of malicious intent, IMO) if true.
Makes me feel both sick to my stomach and disappointed in this country, for allowing scum like this to live freely in it. Hopefully, he never sees daylight again.
The sadness and anger I'm feeling right now. I'm gonna have to take a break from posting before I post something that gets me banned for two years.
Gee, what a "nice" "guy" with "mental health issues".
No more excuses. Guy is filth. Lock him in a jail cell.
PJV3
Member
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/people/jo-cox-dead-thomas-mair-suspect-south-africa-apartheid-a7086426.html%3famp?client=ms-android-sonymobile#
There's other stuff linking him to Neo Nazi groups and home made weapon manuals etc.
Silphonica
Banned
One of the reasons for leaving the EU is that the EU democratic process is by definition undemocratic.
However, our democratic process at home falls privvy to similar problems and in a whole realistically seems undemocratic due to the fact that a minority rules. There is no proportional representation.
I want to start a petition. But I have no social media following to help get the ball rolling and you need at least 5 signatures to get the petition started. Although this is not related to brexit, I want to start the petition with some help from guys here who may agree with me and then maybe make a thread on GAF, because regardless of the brexit result. I feel realistically is more important, and should be started now to give time before the next general election.
However, our democratic process at home falls privvy to similar problems and in a whole realistically seems undemocratic due to the fact that a minority rules. There is no proportional representation.
I want to start a petition. But I have no social media following to help get the ball rolling and you need at least 5 signatures to get the petition started. Although this is not related to brexit, I want to start the petition with some help from guys here who may agree with me and then maybe make a thread on GAF, because regardless of the brexit result. I feel realistically is more important, and should be started now to give time before the next general election.
Please explain how the EU is by definition undemocratic?
Please don't put mental health issues in quotes like that. What he has done his awful, and maybe what he has done has been entirely politically motivated, but then we must consider how he ended up like that.
Is it his environment? His brain (mentally unstable)? A mixture of many factors? We want to stop things like this from happening. The key to that is education and also understanding why people end up like this in the first place. If this man had a different upbringing, would he have ended up like this? If you had had his, would you have ended up like him? One of my biggest fears is that, statistically speaking, if I had been brought up somewhere else or in a different era, I would be hompobi, racist, sexist and/or otherwise intolerant.
What I'm trying to say is, yes this person should be put somewhere that protects others from him. But the "lock away and throw away key" attitude neither helps the victims, helps prevent this from happening again via someone else, and importantly, ends up with innocent people being caught up.
This is a case that should be learned from, so that the number of victims and grief, pain and suffering that this causes can be reduced.
Silphonica
Banned
Sorry I mistyped, what i meant was that one of the reasons for voting leave is that belief. Personally, I feel like the commission and MEPs are being misconstrued to suit agendas. I dont believe personally, the EU is inherently undemocratic, otherwise how would Farage be able to be an MEP and vote against blocking immigrants to suit his own agenda.
What im trying to say is, if the eu being undemocratic is a line being peddled, somewhat successfully, then it can be used to review our own democratic process at home.
Yeah, I agree with you on that one. FPTP and HoL is far more undemocratic than the EU, and definitely support efforts to bring more proportional representation here.
Far more undemocratic? The thing is, we know the HoL is undemocratic, which is why it has such residual power. The HoR can ram things through the HoL if it wishes, and the powers of the HoL to legislate are rather limited. It's mainly a review chamber. I don't like the HoL either, but pretending it's worse than the EU is ridiculous.
The EU has unfettered power to legislate on certain competencies and there is zero recompense. You can not vote for a new EU parliament because the unelected EU Commission has to initiate the repeal.
As for FPTP, saying that it's undemocratic is ludicrous. You might prefer a more proportional system, and that's fine, there are good arguments to be had...but there is still a direct link between voting an election of a representative.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
The Commission is just as elected as Cameron is. You elect national governments, they each appoint a commissioner; same as you elect MPs, they form a cabinet. I'd love it if the Commission were formed from the EP and not national governments as much as anyone, but it isn't the EU blocking that, it is national governments that don't want to concede that power. In fact, the UK has historically been one of the biggest opponents of such a change.
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Id just like to pick up on this point, as it is kind of important and, I think, forms a big part of the justification for a Leave vote.
The argument is essentially that regardless of immediate risks - we should take the opportunity to get out now for fear of what the EU may turn into, and that there wont be another opportunity to do so for a long time when it will perhaps be too late.
First, any big move towards a fucked up united Europe will require treaty changes. Such treaty changes need unanimity of the EU member states, and to be ratified by national governments including, in the UK and some others, by referendum. There is plenty of opportunity to stop these changes if they are not right and similarly the opportunity to trigger an in/out referendum at the same time.
Second, we dont need a further referendum to withdraw from the EU. A perfectly ordinary Parliamentary majority with a mandate will be quite sufficient. In other words, the way we do things in the UK. So, if we vote in government on a get out of the UK platform at any general election then we can proceed to withdraw. Nothing additional needs to be offered.
Third, it wont be particularly more difficult to withdraw in the future than it is now. It is barring big treaty changes which Ive already covered the big difficulties are negotiating future relations with the EU and others, and the interim approach to retaining or scrapping EU laws. The actual volume of laws involved really doesnt affect the complexity of the withdrawal process. Actually it is the other way round the withdrawal process would be easier if weve properly planned for it and voted accordingly.
So, if your reason for voting Leave now is that itll be too hard to do it later I suspect you are wrong. The far greater risk, because of political disagreements and lack of an agreed direction and lack of planning, lies with an immediate exit. Vote Remain.
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