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[mr-paul]

I could list dozens, but that's not really the point. I don't care if the laws have done us well or have done us harm. It's the process that I care about. A benevolent dictator is still a dictator.

The EU isn't a dictator though. It's run by our elected MEPs, elected by a more fair system than we use for our home elections; the heads of state from around Europe, and a commission appointed by our leaders to do things for the good of the people of Europe.

Is it really worth destroying our country for the illusion of more democracy?

 

[Tak3n]

Because he hopes that somebody other than Tories and Labour will rule the country. I wonder who?

Unfair. This referendum is after all about people and their opinions. I can only presume you mean Ukip.

 

[pgtl_10]

Because they're typically a better predictor than polls. And usually have more inside info.

Sounds corrupt.

 

[KingSnake]

Unfair. This referendum is after all about people and their opinions. I can only presume you mean Ukip.

No, I'm really curious who do you want to lead UK if it's not Tories and Labour (as it is said in your post).

 

[Arksy]

The EU isn't a dictator though. It's run by our elected MEPs, elected by a more fair system than we use for our home elections; the heads of state from around Europe, and a commission appointed by our leaders to do things for the good of the people of Europe.

Is it really worth destroying our country for the illusion of more democracy?

Mm, a lot of things are being taken literally, haha. No the EU is technically not a dictator. I was trying to enunciate my position. The EU is not run by MEPs it is run by the EU Commission and the Council. But regardless, I've been through why I think it's undemocratic a bunch of times already and it's far too late for me to recount it again.

However, onto your second point. I don't think it will destroy the country; au contraire I think it will grow significantly. There will be some hurdles no doubt, but I think the UK will be drastically better off within the decade.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Mm, a lot of things are being taken literally, haha. No the EU is technically not a dictator. I was trying to enunciate my position. The EU is not run by MEPs it is run by the EU Commission and the Council. But regardless, I've been through why I think it's undemocratic a bunch of times already and it's far too late for me to recount it again.

However, onto your second point. I don't think it will destroy the country; au contraire I think it will grow significantly. There will be some hurdles no doubt, but I think the UK will be drastically better off within the decade.

So we have 1) Can list dozens of rules, doesn't list any and 2) complaints the EU is a dictator but not technically or something.

It's all your opinion of course, but the reasons you list are not very convincing to me.

Unfair. This referendum is after all about people and their opinions. I can only presume you mean Ukip.

It shouldn't just be about opinions, but opinions based in fact. And the facts are very far and between unfortunately.

 

[KingSnake]

I like how casual people talk about 10 bad years.

 

[8bit]

There will be some hurdles no doubt, but I think the UK will be drastically better off within the decade.

It won't exist within a decade!

 

[ClosingADoor]

I like how casual people talk about 10 bad years.

It's only like over 10% of my life being worse, but whatever right.

 

[Arksy]

So we have 1) Can list dozens of rules, doesn't list any and 2) complaints the EU is a dictator but not technically or something.

It's all your opinion of course, but the reasons you list are not very convincing to me.

It's a metaphor, I shouldn't need to explain that.

Laws: Common agricultural policy, common fisheries policy, suspension of haebus corpus through the European Arrest Warrant, the Exchange-Rate-Mechanism II, VAT, The Common currency, The Common Asylum Policy.

I could go on and on...

Edit: We might disagree on these laws, and sure the EU has come up with some stuff that might be good...as I said, that's completely beside my point. The process of making laws matters to me far more than the actual laws themselves.

 

[Maledict]

The notion that people think writing off 10 to 20 *years* is a good idea, after we've already had 6 years of hard austerity, seems utterly insane to me. Beyond insane. I can only imagine we're talking extremely young people here, because the fact that folks are happy to write off the remainder of my entire working life to misery and economic depression is just staggering.

 

[phisheep]

The notion that people think writing off 10 to 20 *years* is a good idea, after we've already had 6 years of hard austerity, seems utterly insane to me. Beyond insane. I can only imagine we're talking extremely young people here, because the fact that folks are happy to write off the remainder of my entire working life to misery and economic depression is just staggering.

Quite.

10-20 years will be the whole of my remaining life, and I have no particular desire to spend it in the ravenous claws of desperate separatist politicians trying to out-separatist each other, because we know roughly where that leads to (*waves hello to the republican party*).

Meanwhile, here's the argument from poetry:

No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe; every man is a peece of the Continent, a part of the maine; if a Clod bee washed away by the Sea, Europe is the lesse, as well as if a Promontorie were, as well as if a Mannor of thy friends or of thine owne were; any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee.

 

[Arksy]

Quite.

10-20 years will be the whole of my remaining life, and I have no particular desire to spend it in the ravenous claws of desperate separatist politicians trying to out-separatist each other, because we know roughly where that leads to (*waves hello to the republican party*).

I highly doubt it would be like that. We would set up a federation of trade with the outer rim nations and initiate a blockade of an important...

Wait.

 

[NekoFever]

The democracy argument makes me laugh when we have a monarch, an unelected upper house, and a government that has an absolute parliamentary majority from 36% of the vote. There's very little democratic about how this country is governed.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

The democracy argument makes me laugh when we have a monarch, an unelected upper house, and a government that has an absolute parliamentary majority from 36% of the vote. There's very little democratic about how this country is governed.

Also that we voted down a slightly more democratic voting system just a few years ago. Where were all these 'but but democracy!!' people then?

 

[danowat]

The democracy argument makes me laugh when we have a monarch, an unelected upper house, and a government that has an absolute parliamentary majority from 36% of the vote. There's very little democratic about how this country is governed.

But at least they're British though....right?

 

[Exterminieren]

I was hoping that the Leavers here might have some intelligent, rational arguments to back up their stance.

Never nice to be disabused of a notion.

 

[Ding-Ding]

Oh how I have missed having the time to contribute more to this place. You guys seem to be running around with you hair on fire (you remind me of some german car lobbyists I ran into two weeks ago).

So just take a chill pill, as there is alot of things going on behind the scenes. If there is a UK exit I am very confident that we will be just fine. Trust me

On that note, i'm off for a few drinks and as for you guys, just dont dowse your hair using petrol

 

[Arksy]

The democracy argument makes me laugh when we have a monarch, an unelected upper house, and a government that has an absolute parliamentary majority from 36% of the vote. There's very little democratic about how this country is governed.

So the Queen passes legislation on her own does she? I never realised.

 

[danowat]

Oh how I have missed having the time to contribute more to this place. You guys seem to be running around with you hair on fire (you remind me of some german car lobbyists I ran into two weeks ago).

So just take a chill pill, as there is alot of things going on behind the scenes. If there is a UK exit I am very confident that we will be just fine. Trust me

On that note, i'm off for a few drinks and as for you guys, just dont dowse your hair using petrol

Nice way to try and belittle people who are concerned why one of the most important decisions in decades.
I've worked for 30 years, I don't want to see our country struggle for the rest of my working life just for some Empire fantasies.

 

[ClosingADoor]

So the Queen passes legislation on her own does she? I never realised.

Do the EU commissions?

 

[Maledict]

So just take a chill pill, as there is alot of things going on behind the scenes. If there is a UK exit I am very confident that we will be just fine. Trust me
l

It's amazing how every single credible economic organisation and body in the world is saying "WTF don't do this", but you are utterly confident it will be fine.

The only people who want this internationally are our enemies - Putin and trump are not good markers of success!

 

[Beefy]

Think I will be giving this thread a miss to after the referendum. It will only get more and more crazy.

 

[Arksy]

Do the EU commissions?

The EU Commission is the only body in the EU which is allowed to propose legislation. They have sole right of initiative.

 

[FunkyMonk]

The EU Commission is the only body in the EU which is allowed to propose legislation. They have sole right of initiative.

But it doesn't pass it on its own.

 

[Arksy]

But it doesn't pass it on its own.

That's correct. What? You don't see an issue with that? It would be like only allowing the Queen to propose legislation...or only allowing the House of Lords. MPs have no power to set the legislative agenda. Their only power is to say yes or no to a law. They don't even have the power to undo a law that has been previously passed.

If they passed a law that people didn't like, and people got so angry they voted in an entirely different EU Parliament, there would be NOTHING they could do. To me, that's completely unacceptable and counter to the very idea of accountable good government through the dispersion of power.

 

[samn]

That's correct. What? You don't see an issue with that? It would be like only allowing the Queen to propose legislation...or only allowing the House of Lords. MPs have no power to set the legislative agenda. Their only power is to say yes or no to a law. They don't even have the power to undo a law that has been previously passed.

If they passed a law that people didn't like, and people got so angry they voted in an entirely different EU Parliament, there would be NOTHING they could do. To me, that's completely unacceptable and counter to the very idea of accountable good government through the dispersion of power.

It's nothing like the Queen proposing legislation because the Queen is not appointed by democratically elected heads of government. The EU Commission is.

 

[Arksy]

It's nothing like the Queen proposing legislation because the Queen is not appointed by democratically elected heads of government. The EU Commission is.

Not technically true....the Queen could be removed by Parliament. (Well, she'd need to give Royal Assent, there would likely need to be a referendum on the issue)

 

[Jasup]

The EU Commission is the only body in the EU which is allowed to propose legislation. They have sole right of initiative.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/summary/glossary/initiative_right.html

Right of initiative

To enable it to play its role as guardian of the EU treaties and representative of the general interest, the European Commission has been given a right of initiative to propose new laws on the matters contained in the treaties, either because the treaties explicitly provide for it or because the Commission considers it necessary.

The Council and the European Parliament may also ask the Commission to put forward a proposal if they consider it necessary.

Since April 2012, by means of the European Citizens' Initiative (ECI), EU citizens may call on the Commission to make proposals. For an ECI to be triggered, at least 1 million signatures from at least 7 of the 28 EU countries are required.

In certain cases, initiatives from EU countries remain possible.

 

[CharmingCharlie]

Where were all these 'but but democracy!!' people then?

I was there voting in favour of the Alternative Voting system, which whilst not perfect was a hell of a load better than the utter shite we have right now.

Unfortunately the Government of the day (you know the same one as today) did a truly bang up project fear job on the electorate and convinced people that if they voted for AV then little Alfie would die because we wouldn't be able to afford an intensive care incubator oh and his dad John would be slain on the battlefield because we wouldn't be able to afford bulletproof vests if we voted for AV.

So yeah I was there but a Tory Government successfully scared people into voting the way they wanted them to vote ......

 

[KingSnake]

Not technically true....the Queen could be removed by Parliament. (Well, she'd need to give Royal Assent, there would likely need to be a referendum on the issue)

You're the deflection master. Everything with you is a joke, a metaphor or a straight non-answer.

 

[FunkyMonk]

That's correct. What? You don't see an issue with that? It would be like only allowing the Queen to propose legislation...or only allowing the House of Lords. MPs have no power to set the legislative agenda. Their only power is to say yes or no to a law. They don't even have the power to undo a law that has been previously passed.

If they passed a law that people didn't like, and people got so angry they voted in an entirely different EU Parliament, there would be NOTHING they could do. To me, that's completely unacceptable and counter to the very idea of accountable good government through the dispersion of power.

You complained that the EU was undemocratic. Someone pointed out that our own system is at least as undemocratic, your glib response was to ask if the Queen passes legislation on her own so you yet again shifted goalposts to the EU commission being the only body that can propose legislation.

I do wonder what all of the people stating similar arguments to yours, i.e. the lack of democracy, were doing 5 years ago when the Eu referendum got a pitiful amount of the population out to vote or if you put as much effort into shouting about the democratic deficit here in the UK.

In relation to your 'point. If there was such a groundswell of disapproval over a particular law that the entire EU parliament was voted out and new MEPs brought in then there'd also be sufficient pressure to appoint a new commission, they're not appointed for life you know, they're appointed by the member states for 5 years at a time. The mechanism is there, you may not like it but it's there.

 

[phisheep]

Oh how I have missed having the time to contribute more to this place. You guys seem to be running around with you hair on fire (you remind me of some german car lobbyists I ran into two weeks ago).

So just take a chill pill, as there is alot of things going on behind the scenes. If there is a UK exit I am very confident that we will be just fine. Trust me

On that note, i'm off for a few drinks and as for you guys, just dont dowse your hair using petrol

Oh, allow us our fun Ding! The Italians get to do this sort of thing every year or so - for us it is only every 40 years.

 

[Arksy]

You're the deflection master. Everything with you is a joke, a metaphor or a straight non-answer.

That's rich. No one has countered the undemocratic argument with anything other than a deflection (but but monarchy! HoL!) or with misleading and downright silly arguments (totally democratic because it's appointed by people who are elected!)

Do you want me to apologise for not being as morose as everyone else here?

 

[ClosingADoor]

The EU Commission is the only body in the EU which is allowed to propose legislation. They have sole right of initiative.

And they are put there by elected governments. It's a trade off, so smaller countries don't get fucked over in the EU about their concerns. So they provide someone each to the Commission on equal level, and then in Parliament it is represented by size.

That's rich. No one has countered the undemocratic argument with anything other than a deflection (but but monarchy! HoL!) or with misleading and downright silly arguments (totally democratic because it's appointed by people who are elected!)

Do you want me to apologise for not being as morose as everyone else here?

People have. Read the posts.

And counter arguments about the monarchy and House of Lords are valid, since nobody is fighting for a referendum to get rid of that. I mean, if democracy is that important to the Brexit block, why not start in your own home?

 

[Arksy]

You complained that the EU was undemocratic. Someone pointed out that our own system is at least as undemocratic, your glib response was to ask if the Queen passes legislation on her own so you yet again shifted goalposts to the EU commission being the only body that can propose legislation.

I do wonder what all of the people stating similar arguments to yours, i.e. the lack of democracy, were doing 5 years ago when the Eu referendum got a pitiful amount of the population out to vote or if you put as much effort into shouting about the democratic deficit here in the UK.

In relation to your 'point. If there was such a groundswell of disapproval over a particular law that the entire EU parliament was voted out and new MEPs brought in then there'd also be sufficient pressure to appoint a new commission, they're not appointed for life you know, they're appointed by the member states for 5 years at a time. The mechanism is there, you may not like it but it's there.

Ok last post before I clock off.

1. That's not what shifting the goalposts mean.

2. I'm not really able to answer as well as I could given where I am.

3. There would be a groundswell of support, but pitting their job against the electorate is the kind of transparency and accountability that prevents people from abusing their power. I'm sorry that you didn't find my arguments coherent enough. I'm not functioning at my most eloquent.

People have. Read the posts.

And counter arguments about the monarchy and House of Lords are valid, since nobody is fighting for a referendum to get rid of that. I mean, if democracy is that important to the Brexit block, why not start in your own home?

I've read them, you seemingly haven't understood that the reason that no one crying foul over the House of Lords is that they don't weild the same kind of power that the EU does. The HoL is far more limited in what it can and can't do.

Also, you're right, I'd love the UK to be far more democratic with the HoL being elected with proportional representation like the Australian Senate. I would love to see more devolved powers going out to Scotland and Wales. That's not what's on the ballot box though, and until the HoL has the same power the EU has, I don't consider it to be as big of a problem.

 

[phisheep]

I'm getting bored with arguments over economics and immigration and sovereignty. So here's one based on the Prisoner's Dilemma. (Or the Prisoners' dilemma. The position of the apostrophe in the title of a paper gives some clue as to the arguments in the content.)

Let's suppose that each member state of the EU would be better off outside the EU than it would be inside. Or at least that all the net contributors would be - so about 11 countries.

But if *all* of them leave then life for each becomes a lot harder, as you're then trying to trade with 10 different states rather than one EU, and everything gets worse.

Obviously what is in each country's best interests is for them to come out and for everyone else to stay together. So you'd vote Leave. But because everyone else thinks the same way they all vote Leave as well and Europe goes to hell in a handcart.

So everyone would be better off not leaving. So we'd be better off not leaving.

Q.E.D. Vote Remain.


Also ...

So just take a chill pill, as there is alot of things going on behind the scenes. If there is a UK exit I am very confident that we will be just fine. Trust me

Well, Ding knows what he is talking about. There's a lot of stuff going on, behind the scenes, by unelected officials, which they are not telling us about.

So you lot of Leave voters can take your democracy argument and stuff it!

 

[FunkyMonk]

Ok last post before I clock off.

1. That's not what shifting the goalposts mean.

2. I'm not really able to answer as well as I could given where I am.

3. There would be a groundswell of support, but pitting their job against the electorate is the kind of transparency and accountability that prevents people from abusing their power. I'm sorry that you didn't find my arguments coherent enough. I'm not functioning at my most eloquent.

1) It is what shifting the goalposts mean, you have a glib response to every comment and when counter arguments are made you shift to a different tact.

2) No worries

3) If the commission abuse their position they can be removed. There's a mechanism there to do it so your point that there'd be no way to undo legislation that had mass disapproval, enough to re-elect the entire parliament, is null.

As ClosingaDoor said, the commission is the way it is to ensure that the smaller countries don't get run roughshod by the larger members.

Have a good evening, it's Friday and it's been a bloomin' long week!

 

[PJV3]

Oh how I have missed having the time to contribute more to this place. You guys seem to be running around with you hair on fire (you remind me of some german car lobbyists I ran into two weeks ago).

So just take a chill pill, as there is alot of things going on behind the scenes. If there is a UK exit I am very confident that we will be just fine. Trust me

On that note, i'm off for a few drinks and as for you guys, just dont dowse your hair using petrol

Is this supposed to be a good thing?

Threatening doomsday and everything ends up Tickety Boo, the nut jobs and conspiracy loons will have a field day.

 

[jamieson87]

Scottish.

Voting Brexit to speed up the road to independence.

 

[Best]

You're better off voting Remain and hoping the difference between Scotland and the rest of the U.K. Is as large as possible.

 

[Hasney]

Scottish.

Voting Brexit to speed up the road to independence.

And if enough people in Scotland do that and leaving the EU wins, what then? You wouldn't have a mandate for another referendum. It's hilarious how short sighted it is.

 

[Walshicus]

As far as democracy goes, I think it's better at the end of the process than at the start (and better still at all stages).

I'd rather people selected by elected people start the legislation and have elected people approve or reject it, than elected people start the legislation and have unelected people approve or reject it...

 

[PJV3]

Scottish.

Voting Brexit to speed up the road to independence.

Unless you live amongst the English isn't that a bad plan.

 

[Walshicus]

Scottish.

Voting Brexit to speed up the road to independence.

Tell me you see the problem with that...

The mandate for Scottish independence is entirely based on the difference in political attitudes between the two. Maximise the difference, don't minimise it.

 

[ferrasvansen]

Tell me you see the problem with that...

The mandate for Scottish independence is entirely based on the difference in political attitudes between the two. Maximise the difference, don't minimise it.

Yeah it makes no sense if it's a close remain in Scotland there will never be another indy referendum in my lifetime. If however Scotland massively backs to stay in its certain to trigger another referendum in a very quick time span.

 

[Undead]

Scottish.

Voting Brexit to speed up the road to independence.

Voting the wrong way for that one, if you want another Indyref, you need to vote IN and hope rest of UK vote OUT

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Scottish.

Voting Brexit to speed up the road to independence.

I have a lot of patience for Scottish independence, but honestly, this is just absolute A-grade first tier premium-class cuntishness. This affects more than just the people of Scotland, it affects the entirety of the UK. What gives you the right to fuck over the poor of Wales just to accelerate the process of something you'll get another shot at anyway? How selfish can you possibly get?

From one Celt to another, cachau bant.

 

[jamieson87]

And if enough people in Scotland do that and leaving the EU wins, what then? You wouldn't have a mandate for another referendum. It's hilarious how short sighted it is.

I'm speaking a little tongue in cheek. I voted Yes in the Scottish Independence referendum. I'm siding towards leave in the EU referendum. Although I'd still class myself as undecided.

I yearn for a massive shake up of the British political landscape. I'm very anti establishment. I can't quite decide where the establishment lay on this vote....

On one side you have IDS, BoJo, Gove, and Farage. A fairly uninspiring bunch, and quite elitist.

But I can't help but feel the larger establishment is trying to dupe us through fear mongering into voting remain. Something we seen lots of towards the end of the Indyref campaign.

 

[Undead]

I have a lot of patience for Scottish independence, but honestly, this is just absolute A-grade first tier premium-class cuntishness. This affects more than just the people of Scotland, it affects the entirety of the UK. What gives you the right to fuck over the poor of Wales just to accelerate the process of something you'll get another shot at anyway? How selfish can you possibly get?

From one Celt to another, cachau bant.

I agree but it's pointless to argue with out voters, they've all been drinking the Kool-ade, I mean they have to be if they genuinely believe 10-20 bad years is worth some sort of faux democracy